F8 full frame equivalent on aps-c

Hi guys. Quick question. I've always just thought f5.6 on aps-c is equivalent to f8 on FF. As google says:

"An f/8 aperture on a full-frame camera is equivalent to an f/5.6 aperture on an APS-C camera, assuming a common 1.5x crop factor."

But then it goes on to say this which has confused me:

"To achieve the same depth of field as f/8 on full-frame, you must multiply the f-stop by the crop factor, so f/8 on full-frame is equivalent to approximately f/11 or f/12 on APS-C, depending on the exact crop."

Could someone explain why two different f-stops are stated for aps-c (f5.6 and f12) as equivalent to f8 on full frame? Thanks.
Typical AI that got confused and doesn't know that there are rules to this kind of stuff... and one of them being that the "crop factor" is caclulated by the ratio of the diagonals in relation to a full frame sensor, hence why the full frame crop factor is 1.0.

The second part is true, but the crop factor use isn't right. The "right" crop factor in that calculation shoud have been calculated taking APS-C as a base, in which case the full frame crop factor in relation to APS-C would be 0.6something.

Just like medium format (44x33 sensors) has a crop factor of 0.8 compared to full frame.

So yeah you are right for thinking that f/5.6 on APS-C gives more or less the same DoF as f/8 on full frame. And google is wrong for stating otherwise, most lilely because the AI that wrote the response got confused about several sources that weren't clear enough.
 
I realise my view might be controversial, but I find crop factor math to be useless and irrelevant.,

When using an ASPC format camera, I reach for a 18mm lens when I want a semi-wide shot, or a 35mm lens when I want a more isolated subject. I don’t need to know the FF equivalent.

Likewise, each lens has its own DOF characteristics. So I just check the DOF as needed for each scene. Again, I don’t need to know what it would have been on some other camera.

For speed and aperture settings (i.e. exposure), the f-stops are the same across all camera types. There are scientific reasons why this may not be entirely true, but in practical terms, no conversion is needed. That is, after all, why the f-stop concept exists in the first place.
 
I realise my view might be controversial, but I find crop factor math to be useless and irrelevant.,

When using an ASPC format camera, I reach for a 18mm lens when I want a semi-wide shot, or a 35mm lens when I want a more isolated subject. I don’t need to know the FF equivalent.

Likewise, each lens has its own DOF characteristics. So I just check the DOF as needed for each scene. Again, I don’t need to know what it would have been on some other camera.

For speed and aperture settings (i.e. exposure), the f-stops are the same across all camera types. There are scientific reasons why this may not be entirely true, but in practical terms, no conversion is needed. That is, after all, why the f-stop concept exists in the first place.
Yes and no.

If you only use one format, and don't converse with others about settings, then you don't need to know anything about equivalence.

While it is true that both focal length and exposure are the same independent of sensor size, the resulting image will vary with sensor size. I don't think it's controversial to point out the angle of view of a particular focal length varies with sensor size. It is also true that visible image noise at a particular exposure also varies with sensor size.

If you are having a discussion with someone on the results gotten with a particular exposure, focal length, or f/stop, you need to understand equivalence unless that person shoots the same sensor size that you do.

If you are reading about technique in books or online, you need to understand equivalence, unless the particular example you are looking at used a body with the same sensor size as yours.

So yes, if you shoot in isolation with one camera, you don't need to know about equivalence.

Do keep in mind that many people sometimes shoot with a smartphone. Understanding equivalence can help you understand why an f/1.8 lens on a smartphone yield more depth of field than f/5.6 on a full frame.
 
I realise my view might be controversial, but I find crop factor math to be useless and irrelevant.,

When using an ASPC format camera, I reach for a 18mm lens when I want a semi-wide shot, or a 35mm lens when I want a more isolated subject. I don’t need to know the FF equivalent.

Likewise, each lens has its own DOF characteristics. So I just check the DOF as needed for each scene. Again, I don’t need to know what it would have been on some other camera.

For speed and aperture settings (i.e. exposure), the f-stops are the same across all camera types. There are scientific reasons why this may not be entirely true, but in practical terms, no conversion is needed. That is, after all, why the f-stop concept exists in the first place.
See here
 
For speed and aperture settings (i.e. exposure), the f-stops are the same across all camera types. There are scientific reasons why this may not be entirely true, but in practical terms, no conversion is needed. That is, after all, why the f-stop concept exists in the first place.
Exposure is mostly an irrelevant metric when comparing formats.
 
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I do see your point. But I shoot with multiple formats such as 120, ASPC, and 35mm full frame. I’ve learned, mostly by looking through the viewfinders, how various focal lengths behave. I don’t need to do maths to figure out what the AOV or DOF would be on a camera I’m not using.

I’ve been reading posts in this Beginners Forum for a very long time. I’d say the ‘crop factor’ has been the single most widely asked topic.
 
I do see your point. But I shoot with multiple formats such as 120, ASPC, and 35mm full frame. I’ve learned, mostly by looking through the viewfinders, how various focal lengths behave. I don’t need to do maths to figure out what the AOV or DOF would be on a camera I’m not using.

I’ve been reading posts in this Beginners Forum for a very long time. I’d say the ‘crop factor’ has been the single most widely asked topic.
Yes, someone who knows what they are doing, likely has a good feel for how various focal lengths and apertures behave with various film formats and sensor sizes.

However, beginners may not have developed that ability. A beginner may read a recommendation as to what focal length and aperture may be best in a particular situation. Unless the beginner has the same sensor size as the person making the recommendation, he may want to have a basic understanding of equivalence.

A beginner may be looking to buy a camera. When comparing the specs of cameras with different sensors, you need to know about equivalence in order to make a meaningful comparison. Without that understanding, a beginner might make the mistake of thinking a small sensor camera with an f/2.8 lens offers a wider aperture diameter than a full frame with an f/5.6 lens.

Without understanding equivalence, you can't tell whether an f/5.6 lens on camera A will give shallower or deeper DoF, or better/worse low light performance than f/2.8 on Camera B.

When a beginner is trying to match the style of an existing photo, he will need to know equivalence in order to translate the f/stop and focal length into something that will give him the same results on his camera.

For a beginner who is having conversations with people using other sensor sizes, knowing equivalence can be very helpful.

To be fair, equivalence is really quite simple. With the same subject, the same angle of view, same aperture diameter and same shutter speed, you get the same image, independent of sensor size.

.

Once a beginner becomes an experienced photographer, they may have a good feeling for how these settings affect their cameras, and at that point they no longer need to understand equivalence.
 
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Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
A guy buys a Fuji X10 compact with a 2/3" sensor, hears "f/8 and be there", sets his f-stop to f/8 and proceeds using it for pretty much everything wondering why the images are not very sharp. When explained that it is "f/2 and be there" for his sensor, scratches his head in disbelief. True story.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
A guy buys a Fuji X10 compact with a 2/3" sensor, hears "f/8 and be there", sets his f-stop to f/8 and proceeds using it for pretty much everything wondering why the images are not very sharp. When explained that it is "f/2 and be there" for his sensor, scratches his head in disbelief. True story.
My advice would have been to try all the aperture settings to see how they in turn affect the image. Then choose the one that achieves the desired result. No conversion maths needed.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
Using FF equivalent units is like using the meter. Most people on Earth use the metric system not because their ancestors were walking around with a walking stick 1m long, or something similar. It is an accepted unit. It could have been another unit, but the meter was accepted for whatever reason. Without a common standard, disasters can happen.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
I disagree.

The confusion is caused by using terminology based on hitting a predetermined target exposure. This is critical when shooting film.

If you want to avoid confusion, we should be talking about angle of view, not focal length. If we want to avoid confusion we should be talking about aperture diameter, not the ratio of the focal length to the diameter.

.

Unfortunately, that change isn't going to happen anytime soon. We are stuck with a system where people use settings where the results differ with sensor size.

Equivalence is an attempt to reduce confusion by helping beginners understand that the results from f/8 or from 50mm can vary from camera to camera.

.

Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
But aperture diameter is not a readily available parameter like f/number.

Those rather useless equivalence deliberations get their life from those who are rather late to an understanding of math and are gratified that multiplication or division by a “magic” number has a physical meaning.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
I disagree.

The confusion is caused by using terminology based on hitting a predetermined target exposure. This is critical when shooting film.

If you want to avoid confusion, we should be talking about angle of view, not focal length. If we want to avoid confusion we should be talking about aperture diameter, not the ratio of the focal length to the diameter.

.

Unfortunately, that change isn't going to happen anytime soon. We are stuck with a system where people use settings where the results differ with sensor size.

Equivalence is an attempt to reduce confusion by helping beginners understand that the results from f/8 or from 50mm can vary from camera to camera.

.

Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
Photographers have been using f/ numbers for over 250 years, you're going to have some difficulty changing things now.
 
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Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
I disagree.

The confusion is caused by using terminology based on hitting a predetermined target exposure. This is critical when shooting film.

If you want to avoid confusion, we should be talking about angle of view, not focal length. If we want to avoid confusion we should be talking about aperture diameter, not the ratio of the focal length to the diameter.

.

Unfortunately, that change isn't going to happen anytime soon. We are stuck with a system where people use settings where the results differ with sensor size.

Equivalence is an attempt to reduce confusion by helping beginners understand that the results from f/8 or from 50mm can vary from camera to camera.

.

Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
Photographers have been using f/ numbers for over 250 years, you're going to have some difficulty changing things now.
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.

Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).

With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.

.

But old habits are hard to change. The industry standardized on relative f/stops and focal lengths. Even though many current photographers never shot film, they are still dealing with choices designed around film.

The industry has been trying to address this. That's where crop factors come from. With the introduction of the digital SLR consumers could use the same lens on full frame DSLRs and small sensors DSLRs. Crop factors are an attempt to explain how the results differ with smaller sensors.

While crop factors are normally applied only to focal length, they also apply to f/stop.

Thus we are left with using equivalent focal length as a proxy for angle of view, and equivalent f/stop as a proxy for aperture diameter.

Yes, this isn't ideal, but it's the way it is.

This idea of using proxy values is not limited to photography. In the USA one can buy 15 Watt light bulbs that are marketed as 100W equivalent. Wattage is a measure of how much power the bulb uses, not how much light it uses. A 15W bulb only uses 15W. However, it produces the same amount of light as a traditional 100W incandescent bulb.

It's hard to find incandescent bulbs in my local store, but bulbs are still marketed with "equivalent wattage".

"Equivalent wattage" is not a measure of light output. "Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length. We are probably stuck with both.
 
Sure.

But my point is that a full-frame ‘equivalent’ is not a useful point of reference to a someone who has never used a full frame camera.
It is a point of reference.
Yes. I am well aware. Nonetheless, everything I've said thus far has been my own opinion only. Some people think crop factors are an indispensable tool and I respect that view. Obviously the concept is well embedded in the industry's marketing materials. I just think it creates more confusion than clarity as evidenced by the never ending questions about it in this forum.
I disagree.

The confusion is caused by using terminology based on hitting a predetermined target exposure. This is critical when shooting film.

If you want to avoid confusion, we should be talking about angle of view, not focal length. If we want to avoid confusion we should be talking about aperture diameter, not the ratio of the focal length to the diameter.

.

Unfortunately, that change isn't going to happen anytime soon. We are stuck with a system where people use settings where the results differ with sensor size.

Equivalence is an attempt to reduce confusion by helping beginners understand that the results from f/8 or from 50mm can vary from camera to camera.

.

Personally, I think things would be clearer if we did use angle of view and aperture diameter. At the same shutter speed, aperture diameter, and angle of view, you get the same results from all cameras. That's far simpler than explaining that f/5.6 on your APS-C camera gives the same result as f/8 on a full frame, or f/4 on M43.
Photographers have been using f/ numbers for over 250 years, you're going to have some difficulty changing things now.
Also the f/ number gives a rough estimate of the quantity of light gathered. An f/4 aperture will give roughly the same amount of light gathered no matter if that's on a 12mm or 600mm lens, assuming their T-stop is somewhat close.

Using the aperture diameter only works if you speak in amount of noise in the image, and is way more complcated for people learning.
 
Yes. Film required an exposure centric workflow. The first step was to determine the desired exposure. You then load film designed for that exposure. The workflow is then built around hitting that target. Film photographers had it drilled into them that if they had to keep aperture and shutter balanced. Change one, and you had to make a corresponding change to the other.
Not quite. As an amateur, the film in my camera was whatever I loaded the last time. I stopped developing my own negatives and printing myself to avoid all that mess. Just by eyeballing my negatives, the exposure was all over the place. Yet, the prints looked good. Film has a wide tolerance not just for under exposure but for overexposure as well. With digital, it is a brick wall, and you must be careful.
Now we shoot digital, and we are no longer required to work that way. Under the hood, digital does not work the same as film. Unlike film, digital sensors have a wide range of exposures where they will produce good results. The concept of digital ISO-speed is a fabrication intended to ease the transition from film to digital (that's according to the spec itself).
No. The high ISO of digital cameras also serves the purpose of lowering the noise in low light.
With digital you can alter the aperture and leave the shutter unchanged. Auto-ISO handles maintaining constant image lightness.
You can do that with film, too but with digital, you cab blow the highlights. In both cases, there are penalties, just different ones.
.

But old habits are hard to change. The industry standardized on relative f/stops and focal lengths. Even though many current photographers never shot film, they are still dealing with choices designed around film.

The industry has been trying to address this. That's where crop factors come from. With the introduction of the digital SLR consumers could use the same lens on full frame DSLRs and small sensors DSLRs. Crop factors are an attempt to explain how the results differ with smaller sensors.

While crop factors are normally applied only to focal length, they also apply to f/stop.

Thus we are left with using equivalent focal length as a proxy for angle of view, and equivalent f/stop as a proxy for aperture diameter.

Yes, this isn't ideal, but it's the way it is.
Your solution is less than ideal, too. I am going to shoot a low light event next weekend. Should I bring my 71mm aperture narrow angle lens or my 52mm aperture “normal angle” lens? BTW, the former is 400/5.6 while the latter is 50/1.2.

How will the AOV of my 46 AOV lens change if I use it on a crop camera? Which dedicated APS-C lens can it replicate?
This idea of using proxy values is not limited to photography. In the USA one can buy 15 Watt light bulbs that are marketed as 100W equivalent. Wattage is a measure of how much power the bulb uses, not how much light it uses. A 15W bulb only uses 15W. However, it produces the same amount of light as a traditional 100W incandescent bulb.

It's hard to find incandescent bulbs in my local store, but bulbs are still marketed with "equivalent wattage".

"Equivalent wattage" is not a measure of light output.
Actually, it is. It is not a measure of wattage though but it is not meant to be.
"Equivalent focal length" is not a measure of focal length.
It doesn’t have to be.
 
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Also the f/ number gives a rough estimate of the quantity of light gathered. An f/4 aperture will give roughly the same amount of light gathered no matter if that's on a 12mm or 600mm lens, assuming their T-stop is somewhat close.
The f/number does not give the quantity of light gathered. It helps you determine the intensity of the light per unit area.

Intensity per unit are (AKA "exposure") is critical when shooting film. That's why we use f/stops.

For digital, it's the total light captured that's important. That's light per unit area multiplied by the sensor size.
Using the aperture diameter only works if you speak in amount of noise in the image, and is way more complcated for people learning.
I disagree. it's only more complicated if you are teaching from a film based point of view.

The industry has already switched over to working with angle of view instead of physical focal length. It's a little confusing as we have standardized on measuring angle of view in units of "equivalent focal length" instead of degrees.

Instead of saying that a lens/body combination has an angle of view of 46°, we say it has an "equivalent focal length of 50mm". I suspect it would be easier if we started calling it "50 efl", and didn't tell people that "efl" stood for "equivalent focal length".

Equivalent f/stop is just a way of expressing the aperture diameter relative to the efl.

What's confusing is the gyrations we go through in order to have a film centric, exposure first, workflow.

If we start teaching workflows that are not required to be exposure first, things become much easier to understand.
 

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