Handmade in Sweden…

JimKasson said:

Erik Kaffehr said:

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

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My impression is that 'handmade' means that it is assembled by hand,

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...using tools? Power tools? Alignment jigs? Electronic test equipment? Robotic aids? If any of the above, is it still hand-assembled?

JimKasson said:

but I would think that would apply to almost any more advanced camera.

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Yes, I think so.

There used to be some videos from Phase One, Hasselblad and Leica making cameras. They all use instruments, jigs etc.

Personally, all I care about is that the equipment I use works, is properly aligned and does not fail or 'hick up'. I would also say that I have been using cameras for 60 years and failures were very rare.

Best regards

Erik

Erik Kaffehr said:

JimKasson said:

Erik Kaffehr said:

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

Click to expand...

My impression is that 'handmade' means that it is assembled by hand,

Click to expand...

...using tools? Power tools? Alignment jigs? Electronic test equipment? Robotic aids? If any of the above, is it still hand-assembled?

Erik Kaffehr said:

but I would think that would apply to almost any more advanced camera.

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Click to expand...

Yes, I think so.

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+1

Erik Kaffehr said:

There used to be some videos from Phase One, Hasselblad and Leica making cameras. They all use instruments, jigs etc.

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I would say that H6D was hand assembled:


I do not think that you need to turn the screws by hand to qualify as hand assembled .

Erik Kaffehr said:

Personally, all I care about is that the equipment I use works, is properly aligned and does not fail or 'hick up'. I would also say that I have been using cameras for 60 years and failures were very rare.

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic tends to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles

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Erik Kaffehr said:

.. I have been using cameras for 60 years and failures were very rare.

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Depends on the camera system - I owned three Bronica SQ-Ai bodies during the 90’s because one was nearly always away being repaired.

With the Hasselblad system, I've never had a problem with any of the 500 series camera bodies but the shutter in some of the lenses have stop working on me - and so has the ‘Open / Close Expose’ lens cocking thingy on top of the FlexBody…


(The Hasselblad FlexBody)

.. quite a few times.

So I would also say it rarely happens - but still I'd highly recommended you have a back-up or second one on hand, especially if you’re going to be using it during an important shoot.

Added note: never had any problems with the Mamiya RB67 system that I used between 1985 and 1993...


(Using the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S with the Mamiya-Sekor C 90mm f/3.8 lens, Eye Level Prism Finder and the Power Drive Control Pack attached, on a Manfrotto 161MK2B Super Pro tripod with the Manfrotto 160 Heavy Duty 3-way view camera head)

.. which was when I switched over to Bronica.

-

Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.

Hi,

Handmade is the wrong term. Hand assembled is correct.

The electronic components are all machine made. They are not, cannot be, placed onto the circuit boards and flex films by hand. Those are all done by robotic placement machines. The soldering done by robotic reflow ovens which look like giant pizza ovens.

The mechanical components are all made by Computer Numeric Control machines. These days, actual robots which put the blank in and remove the finished part. People only needed when the red stack light illuminates.

The fewer humans involved in these steps, the better. Lest you get what I had over and over again assembling my products. Humans contaminating the things because they just have to sneak in snacks past the No Food Or Drink Allowed signs.

Most products are assembled by machines these days. Hand assembly used only for low volume or specialty products. It is just too blasted slow. However, these cameras fit both categories and I would have them Hand Assembled myself, if I were to decide.

And the various components can be machine made and assembled into subassemblies anywhere in the world. And we can say the final product is Hand Assembled in whatever country that occurs in.

It has been that way for the past 50 years, at least.

Here is an example. John Deere tractors. Engines complete from France. Transmissions and final drives from Germany. Front ends (which are usually power driven these days) from India. All these subassemblies sent to a plant in whichever country the tractor is sold in. In the US, Augusta Georgia. They get made into a base machine machine, then the ancillary bits, from wherever, added and one of several sales models is born. Assembled in the USA.

I just bought a new one this summer. I wrote down all the main serial numbers. That is needed come parts time. Not just the full machine serial number. So I noted where each was made.

Stan

Hi,

Bespoke? Cool! That means I get to order whatever I want it to have and look like.

I tried that once with a camera. Kodak was moving out of the Nikon F5 stage. They had a 6 MP sensor. Kodak also had a 10 MP variant for use in the Leica DMR. I knew several of the Kodak DCS guys. All I wanted was a 760c with the 10 MP sensor instead.

They had such already, but I couldn't get them to slip one my way. See, they don't do bespoke cameras (unless you are a Federal Sector customer).

Stan

I think the word we are looking for is artisanal...

kciuk aka Ken60 said:

This conversation reminds me of my Saab days . I loved my Saab twin turbo convertible , and then Saab lost it to GM ...... no longer the boys from Trollhättan calling the shots and so the quality went down .

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My Swedish SAAB 900’s headliner fell on my head while I was driving, echoing the experience noted for a Ferrari elsewhere in this thread. Brilliant car, it was both my transport and occasional bedroom (btw I’m 6’3”) during a month-long photo tour of the US Southwest.

To further illustrate that any brand’s myths are as vulnerable as a balloon is to a pinprick, when the water pump’s rotating seal between water world and oil world (an unnecessary design overreach) failed, it nearly killed the engine. But I miss the car anyway.

[That engine was also used in the TR7 so maybe the dumb water pump drive could have been Triumph’s fault?]

kciuk aka Ken60 said:

After a while because of non compliance and the determination to bring back the old design standards GM warned and then ditched it , we all bought "I am GM free " T Shirts , proud to see the tradition of Swedish design and quality return .

We all know where that went !

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--
Wag more; bark less.

I owned and ran a prototype machine shop for 40+ years. Even though machines (often running by programs) were always being used, I’d never hesitate to say that what we made were “handmade.”

That said, if we were to make something like this, the body cost would have easily been 20x the retail, and that would assume we were handed fully assembled electronics packages to install in it. Calling this “handmade” is just silly. I would hope that much of the assembly process is robotic. These are mass produced; not in huge quantities, but enough that I would expect as much automation as possible, and then final adjustments, etc. by human.

I thought I was replying to the general thread.

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

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The X2D is only partly jewelry, but here's a definition:

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is handmade or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.


1. An Artisan Definition of Handmade

True handmades are created, essentially, by human hands. “100% handmades” can use hand tools or even limited mechanical processes—as long as the artisan’s work and skills remain the most substantial value-add of the finished product.


Every professional camera is assembled by hand to some extent. Hasselblad’s use of “Handmade in Sweden” is more heritage branding than a literal distinction in process. It celebrates the small-scale, domestic, manual assembly ethos rather than claiming something mechanically unique.

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

Click to expand...

The X2D is only partly jewelry, but here's a definition:

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is handmade or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/23.2

1. An Artisan Definition of Handmade

True handmades are created, essentially, by human hands. “100% handmades” can use hand tools or even limited mechanical processes—as long as the artisan’s work and skills remain the most substantial value-add of the finished product.

https://greige.co/blogs/news/definition-of-handmade-crafts

Every professional camera is assembled by hand to some extent. Hasselblad’s use of “Handmade in Sweden” is more heritage branding than a literal distinction in process. It celebrates the small-scale, domestic, manual assembly ethos rather than claiming something mechanically unique.

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Yes.

We live in a world where ‘picking’ something is referred to a ‘curating’.

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

Click to expand...

The X2D is only partly jewelry,

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An X2D is not jewelry, even partly.

JimKasson said:

but here's a definition:

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is handmade or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/23.2

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That it is a subsection of: "16 CFR Part 23 - GUIDES FOR THE JEWELRY, PRECIOUS METALS, AND PEWTER INDUSTRIES". [Bold text in original].

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

Click to expand...

The X2D is only partly jewelry,

Click to expand...

An X2D is not jewelry, even partly.

TechTalk2 said:

but here's a definition:

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is handmade or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/23.2

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That it is a subsection of: "16 CFR Part 23 - GUIDES FOR THE JEWELRY, PRECIOUS METALS, AND PEWTER INDUSTRIES". [Bold text in original].

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As I indicated above.

JimKasson said:

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

Click to expand...

The X2D is only partly jewelry,

Click to expand...

An X2D is not jewelry, even partly.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

And yet, many X2D owners extol the beauty of the camera, and talk about how nice the look and feel of the camera make them feel. Kinda like a Rolex.

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

but here's a definition:

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is handmade or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/23.2

Click to expand...

That it is a subsection of: "16 CFR Part 23 - GUIDES FOR THE JEWELRY, PRECIOUS METALS, AND PEWTER INDUSTRIES". [Bold text in original].

Click to expand...

As I indicated above.

Click to expand...

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

The X2D is only partly jewelry,

Click to expand...

An X2D is not jewelry, even partly.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

And yet, many X2D owners extol the beauty of the camera, and talk about how nice the look and feel of the camera make them feel. Kinda like a Rolex.

Click to expand...

I like the the look and feel of my office chair and how it makes me feel, but I wouldn't call it partly jewelry or compare it to a Rolex or to an X2D (although they both have good ergonomics, so maybe it's somewhat like an X2D). But, to each their own little pleasures in life.

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

The X2D is only partly jewelry,

Click to expand...

An X2D is not jewelry, even partly.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

And yet, many X2D owners extol the beauty of the camera, and talk about how nice the look and feel of the camera make them feel. Kinda like a Rolex.

Click to expand...

I like the the look and feel of my office chair and how it makes me feel, but I wouldn't call it partly jewelry or compare it to a Rolex or to an X2D (although they both have good ergonomics, so maybe it's somewhat like an X2D). But, to each their own little pleasures in life.

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I'm just guessing here, but I imagine that you don't walk around with your office chair hanging from your neck.

There comes a point when a camera stops being merely a tool and becomes something else: an ornament, a talisman, a piece of jewelry. It doesn’t happen all at once. At first it’s just beautifully made, with metal that feels cool and dense in the hand, dials that turn with the crisp detent of good machining, leather that fits as if it has always belonged there. You begin to notice that people look at it when you take it out, that you yourself hesitate before setting it down on a rough surface.

The transformation is complete when the camera’s purpose shifts from seeing to being seen. Its weight and precision still speak of utility, but the intention has changed. The company begins to emphasize craftsmanship and heritage—how it was “handmade in Sweden,” or “assembled by master technicians in Wetzlar”—instead of talking about read noise, resolving power, or autofocus speed. The object that once promised to reveal the world now serves to reveal something about its owner: taste, means, discernment, nostalgia.

A working photographer might carry it until the paint wears through, but the collector polishes it, arranges it under soft light, and admires how the engraving catches the reflections. Both own the same instrument, yet one has a tool and the other a jewel. The difference lies not in the metal or the glass but in the gaze that meets it. When the camera flatters its owner more than it flatters the subject, it has become jewelry.

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

With today's multinational supply chains, it's hard to say where anything is made. But I do have a problem with the "handmade" part. Who would want a camera whose lenses were ground by hand, or whose case was machined by a guy with a chisel, a file, and some emery cloth? It's impossible to achieve the tolerances required for today's cameras doing everything by hand, and it would cost a fortune.

Click to expand...

The X2D is only partly jewelry,

Click to expand...

An X2D is not jewelry, even partly.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

And yet, many X2D owners extol the beauty of the camera, and talk about how nice the look and feel of the camera make them feel. Kinda like a Rolex.

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Is a guitar jewelry? Is a car jewelry? Yet, we extol the beauty of technical items like cars, computers, musical instruments, airplanes, locomotives, etc.

Jewelry is typically only a decorative object. In my opinion, applying it to a camera is derogatory, as it implies that it serves mainly an ornamental function.

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

but here's a definition:

(a) It is unfair or deceptive to represent, directly or by implication, that any industry product is handmade or hand-wrought unless the entire shaping and forming of such product from raw materials and its finishing and decoration were accomplished by hand labor and manually-controlled methods which permit the maker to control and vary the construction, shape, design, and finish of each part of each individual product.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/16/23.2

Click to expand...

That it is a subsection of: "16 CFR Part 23 - GUIDES FOR THE JEWELRY, PRECIOUS METALS, AND PEWTER INDUSTRIES". [Bold text in original].

Click to expand...

As I indicated above.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

JimKasson said:

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

JimKasson said:

TechTalk2 said:

JimKasson said:

The X2D is only partly jewelry,

Click to expand...

An X2D is not jewelry, even partly.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

And yet, many X2D owners extol the beauty of the camera, and talk about how nice the look and feel of the camera make them feel. Kinda like a Rolex.

Click to expand...

I like the the look and feel of my office chair and how it makes me feel, but I wouldn't call it partly jewelry or compare it to a Rolex or to an X2D (although they both have good ergonomics, so maybe it's somewhat like an X2D). But, to each their own little pleasures in life.

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I'm just guessing here, but I imagine that you don't walk around with your office chair hanging from your neck.

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No, but others often see it and on occasion enjoy using it.

JimKasson said:

There comes a point when a camera stops being merely a tool and becomes something else: an ornament, a talisman, a piece of jewelry...

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To me, it's a tool for creating images. What I appreciate is that it works well for my intended purpose. I also appreciate good ergonomics being incorporated into their design — and in my office chair.

But, as I said before, to each their own little pleasures in life. I think this is my stop. Nice talking with you.

Hmm…my vintage Hasselblad XPan ii was built in japan and it has as much a quality build as my first 500c.

SrMi said:

Where did you get that disinformation from?

Leica Camera AG is 55% owned by the Austrian ACM Projektentwicklung GmbH and 45% by The Blackstone Group. ACM Projektentwicklung is run by the Kaufmann family, especially Andreas Kaufmann, who is very hands-on in anything related to Leica cameras.

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My mistake!

I was getting confused about Hermes having a stake in the company at one point. Appreciate the clarification and correction.