Personal Deep investigation in the MFT vs FF everlasting debate

MimiVivi said:

GodSpeaks said:

Jeroen1969 said:

After thorough discussions with ChatGPT regarding this matter...

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And THAT is where I stopped reading...

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Me too!

ChatGPT has this pesky habit of making nonsense up out of thin air, confessing its lies like a sniveling child if you call them out, and then just turning about and bald-faced lying / making-nonsense-up again immediately, like you didn't just catch it doing that red-handed! And again. And again.

Everyone who engages one of these artificially "intelligent" bulls__t artists chatbots ought to first have a look at this hilarious chat transcript, if just to be fully aware of what they're tangling with. It's a bit of a trek to the point at which things go hilariously upside down for ChatGPT--but I've never seen a truer demo of what these "tools" are all about.

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Wow, I've been skeptical of AI, but nowhere near skeptical enough!

I definitely have encountered a situation where it made stuff up, and when proven wrong, made something else up ... with another iteration or two before I demanded that any further answers include an external reference. At that point it took *much* longer to respond - at which point it FINALLY admitted that it couldn't answer the question.

This was chatGPT. In a later example, Grok conjured up a hot-shoe on my RX100m5 - which sadly doesn't exist.

I dont think its a debate anymore so much as some people just not understanding the strengths of each system. I think your experience kind of sums it up. M43 excels at reach, and if you are deliberate/careful, size and cost. But FF has closed the gap substantially, while simply having a 2 stop deeper IQ envelope, 2-3x higher native resolution, newer tech etc. FF kind of just being better doesnt make MFT bad, but I think some people are frustrated at seeing MFT kind of getting left behind.

sportyaccordy said:

I dont think its a debate anymore so much as some people just not understanding the strengths of each system. I think your experience kind of sums it up. M43 excels at reach, and if you are deliberate/careful, size and cost. But FF has closed the gap substantially, while simply having a 2 stop deeper IQ envelope, 2-3x higher native resolution, newer tech etc. FF kind of just being better doesnt make MFT bad, but I think some people are frustrated at seeing MFT kind of getting left behind.

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People would be much more happier if they concentrated on what they have instead of worrying about what they don’t have.

Jeroen1969 said:

I decided that finding a used Sony A7R IV A (with the improved rear screen) would be the most sensible. That camera scores rather high in the areas where I intent to use it.

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Never too late. Welcome and congrats on the upgrade.

People dismissing it solely because it came from ChatGPT - that's a genetic fallacy.

HicHic said:

People dismissing it solely because it came from ChatGPT - that's a genetic fallacy.

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Better to reject it because it came from ChatGPT than to accept it because it came from ChatGPT.

No doubt, ChatGPT can be a valuable tool in the hands of competent users. However, some are using it purely as reference material, instead of a research tool.

SrMi said:

HicHic said:

People dismissing it solely because it came from ChatGPT - that's a genetic fallacy.

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Better to reject it because it came from ChatGPT than to accept it because it came from ChatGPT.

No doubt, ChatGPT can be a valuable tool in the hands of competent users. However, some are using it purely as reference material, instead of a research tool.

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Better to hold judgement and base an argument on its merits, rather than who or what it came from. Unless OP releases the conversation with ChatGPT, it's pointless to make any claim.

Besides, the A7RIV has dropped a lot in price the used market - it can be had for very cheap. It performs very well for its price if you don't need fast burst rates, which fits OP's case for that focal range. E-mount has tons of great glass. I can see myself making the same recommendation if budget is a factor, which clearly is if OP is buying used. If a person made the same recommendation, it would get no such backlash. This forum often appeals to authority and commits to genetic fallacies.

Instead of explaining why A7RIV does not fit OP's use case, it's just "it's from ChatGPT, therefore it's incorrect".

HicHic said:

SrMi said:

HicHic said:

People dismissing it solely because it came from ChatGPT - that's a genetic fallacy.

Click to expand...

Better to reject it because it came from ChatGPT than to accept it because it came from ChatGPT.

No doubt, ChatGPT can be a valuable tool in the hands of competent users. However, some are using it purely as reference material, instead of a research tool.

Click to expand...

Better to hold judgement and base an argument on its merits, rather than who or what it came from. Unless OP releases the conversation with ChatGPT, it's pointless to make any claim.

Besides, the A7RIV has dropped a lot in price the used market - it can be had for very cheap. It performs very well for its price if you don't need fast burst rates, which fits OP's case for that focal range. E-mount has tons of great glass. I can see myself making the same recommendation if budget is a factor, which clearly is if OP is buying used. If a person made the same recommendation, it would get no such backlash. This forum often appeals to authority and commits to genetic fallacies.

Instead of explaining why A7RIV does not fit OP's use case, it's just "it's from ChatGPT, therefore it's incorrect".

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Maybe the better phrasing is "failure to accept."

ChatGPT is basically like the autosuggestion on your smart phone on steroids. It uses probability to guess an answer. Many times it's right, but sometimes it gives nonsensical answers due to "illusions."

SonyX said:

tsinvest said:

Although I didn't read this entire thread, the one comment I will make is that I find it hard to justify paying $7,500 for any lens, be it FF or MFT. With my Canon FF R5 and APS-C R7 and the RF100-500 (approx $2,800) I get very clear (see each strand in the feather clear) photos of birds.

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Why did you decide that you need to compare it specifically with the 150-400, and not with both versions of the 100-400mm?
Olympus is currently 900 euro only

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Because the OP was referencing the 150-400. I am fine with the 100-400, which I don't have, but would sooner purchase it instead of the 150-400.

SonyX said:

SonyX said:

Granted I have seen some beautiful photos come from the 150-400 pro, but I don't think they are worth the extra $5,000 that the lens commands. Maybe if you are a professional photographer. Even though I can afford that lens, I would like to know what motivates someone to spend that kind of money to buy it? Just curious, since it is a wonderful lens, just very expensive in my opinion.

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HicHic said:

People dismissing it solely because it came from ChatGPT - that's a genetic fallacy.

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ChatGPT isnt bad as a starting point for research, but I dont feel bad rolling my eyes at people who "talk to" ChatGPT or begin and end their research with it. Just because something sounds good doesn't mean it's true, and it's scary how willing people are outsourcing their critical thinking.

MimiVivi said:

GodSpeaks said:

Jeroen1969 said:

After thorough discussions with ChatGPT regarding this matter...

Click to expand...

And THAT is where I stopped reading...

Click to expand...

Me too!

ChatGPT has this pesky habit of making nonsense up out of thin air, confessing its lies like a sniveling child if you call them out, and then just turning about and bald-faced lying / making-nonsense-up again immediately, like you didn't just catch it doing that red-handed! And again. And again.

Everyone who engages one of these artificially "intelligent" bulls__t artists chatbots ought to first have a look at this hilarious chat transcript, if just to be fully aware of what they're tangling with. It's a bit of a trek to the point at which things go hilariously upside down for ChatGPT--but I've never seen a truer demo of what these "tools" are all about.

Click to expand...

Plus, it also demonstrates a singular LACK of intelligence.

MimiVivi said:

GodSpeaks said:

Jeroen1969 said:

After thorough discussions with ChatGPT regarding this matter...

Click to expand...

And THAT is where I stopped reading...

Click to expand...

Me too!

ChatGPT has this pesky habit of making nonsense up out of thin air, confessing its lies like a sniveling child if you call them out, and then just turning about and bald-faced lying / making-nonsense-up again immediately, like you didn't just catch it doing that red-handed! And again. And again.

Everyone who engages one of these artificially "intelligent" bulls__t artists chatbots ought to first have a look at this hilarious chat transcript, if just to be fully aware of what they're tangling with. It's a bit of a trek to the point at which things go hilariously upside down for ChatGPT--but I've never seen a truer demo of what these "tools" are all about.

Click to expand...

I haven't used ChatGPT but I use Copilot a lot, especially "Copilot - Think Deeper". So long as you understand it's not a database of knowledge but a very powerful search engine. It does in 30 seconds what would take me hours in searching the web. It digs much deeper than I could too. Yes, 99% of what's on the web is rubbish, so it's not always right, but it seems to know what is more authoritative and it gives references to allow you to check. It sometimes gives alternative answers to allow you to choose which you think is better.

If I wanted to have a chat, I'd talk to my wife.

sportyaccordy said:

but I think some people are frustrated at seeing MFT kind of getting left behind.

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Not left behind... Abandoned.

I was never attracted to any of the Olympus offerings, but the Panasonic GM and GX series did attract me strongly. Yet, Panasonic would seem to have completely abandoned it's GM and GX users. To add insult to injury, what attracted me to MFT, small, light, compact, high performing bodies, Panasonic instead of continuing that trait, decided to try and compete with FF by producing larger, heavier bodies. I suspect Panasonic does not have many photographers on their payroll. What they do have, is good engineers.

GodSpeaks said:

sportyaccordy said:

but I think some people are frustrated at seeing MFT kind of getting left behind.

Click to expand...

Not left behind... Abandoned.

I was never attracted to any of the Olympus offerings, but the Panasonic GM and GX series did attract me strongly. Yet, Panasonic would seem to have completely abandoned it's GM and GX users. To add insult to injury, what attracted me to MFT, small, light, compact, high performing bodies, Panasonic instead of continuing that trait, decided to try and compete with FF by producing larger, heavier bodies. I suspect Panasonic does not have many photographers on their payroll. What they do have, is good engineers.

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I think Panasonic’s emphasis on video performance has impacted the size of their higher end cameras. Personally as a rule I prefer larger bodies for better ergonomics . Panasonic like all companies will follow the money and that may well be FF.

M43 sensor development and computational photography

Instead of just recording light and color, the sensor also measures how far every pixel is from the lens — a bit like a built-in LiDAR scanner combined with the camera’s usual phase-detect system.

Here’s the magic in plain words:

• While you press the shutter, it grabs the normal RAW photo and a hidden 3-D depth map of the whole scene.
• Later, you can “spin the focus ring after the shot,” shifting the focus plane anywhere you want.
• You can also dial in an aperture effect — f/1.2 dreamy blur or f/11 landscape sharpness — without changing the lens or reshooting.
• The sensor’s depth data is written alongside the RAW file, so any editing software can render cinematic, lens-style bokeh that respects edges, hair strands, and foreground/background separation.

Think of it as giving your camera the power to remember the distance to everything it saw, so you can bend depth-of-field later like you tweak exposure or white-balance. Missed focus can be corrected in post.

5-6~ years away due new SiP, file size and economies of scale.

Early stages currently

• Sony Quad-PD AF sensors – Many phones have per-pixel phase-detect built into the main sensor, which gives rough depth for autofocus, but not true range-finding.

vcxz said:

ChatGPT is basically like the autosuggestion on your smart phone on steroids. It uses probability to guess an answer.

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Close, but the real problem with ChatGPT and other Large Language Models is they aren't using probability to guess an answer, they are using probability to guess the next words in the conversation.

Is it factual? It doesn't know or care. Is it even an answer to your question, or did it ignore it entirely? It doesn't know or care. Will it vastly to prefer to confirm what you've just said, rather than telling you that you are wrong? Absolutely, because all it is doing it trying to figure out what words to use to continue the chat. It's the ultimate sycophant.

GodSpeaks said:

sportyaccordy said:

but I think some people are frustrated at seeing MFT kind of getting left behind.

Click to expand...

Not left behind... Abandoned.

I was never attracted to any of the Olympus offerings, but the Panasonic GM and GX series did attract me strongly. Yet, Panasonic would seem to have completely abandoned it's GM and GX users. To add insult to injury, what attracted me to MFT, small, light, compact, high performing bodies, Panasonic instead of continuing that trait, decided to try and compete with FF by producing larger, heavier bodies. I suspect Panasonic does not have many photographers on their payroll. What they do have, is good engineers.

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I understand your frustration, but at the end of the day, it kind of is what it is.

Ultimately, M43 will always be kind of niche, because while it's a little cheaper than FF, the vast majority of enthusiasts want FF and will pay the premium for it. Id wager the average FF body costs 2x the average M43 body. FF buyer base is also bigger. So it kind of creates a vicious cycle, as FF makers simply have more money to invest back into the product. And even without that, all else equal there's still the 2 stop bigger IQ envelope. FF also gets to pair up with APS-C to further increase economies of scale, while MFT has to stand on its own.

I think when M43 launched, everything was fresh and FF MILCs basically didnt exist it made a lot of sense. But now, from a business perspective, kind of not so much.

My other thought is, OK maybe from an emotional standpoint it sucks to watch FF get all the investment and attention. But practically speaking, what do you want from M43 that you can't get? A popular refrain I hear here is that M43 is "all anyone needs". Which has kind of become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Outside of new PEN and GM bodies, what's really missing? Lens lineup seems complete and pixel pitch precludes any huge MP jumps, and yall have some pretty fast sensors.

Other than competing against another photographer for likes, the stills imaging market is mostly dead. Perhaps only a few commercial photographers are still making money shooting exclusively for income, everyone else run workshops and tours to put food on the table.

I always wonder why people focuses on the argument between MFT and FF? Is it because you feel so insecure that if FF gear performs better than your MFT, you really need to keep convincing yourself that your MFT gear is NOT inferior? Why not buy a FF kit and find out for yourself? If you find the FF kit helpful and make you feel secure again, then keep the FF kit. If you feel you need two kits to make you feel secure again, then keep 2 kits or 3 kits or multiple kits. Many of us shoot with multiple formats. There is no rule that you can't shoot with more than one format? There is no rule that you have to stay loyal to a MFT system either. I shoot with multiple formats, including a rental Fuji MF system if I need more MP.

What is important is not the camera, but the photographer that's behind it. Most of us like MFT, because we like what the system offers and if helps motivate the photographer behind the camera to become more creative, then that's great. But I just don't see any reason to limit yourself with just one camera format.

Even Vivian Maier shot with more than 1 format. She shot with more than 1 camera. MF and 35mm and more. Or Sue Cassidy Clark where she coined the term "My camera was my Art". She owns more than 1 camera and she was a great photographer as well.

Every camera we own gives us the ability to create "art". Whether it's MFT, FF and MFT; it doesn't really matter.

Vivian Maier and Sue Cassidy Clark both focus on creating art with their cameras. We can as well once we give up this nonsense discussion about lens resolution, DR, noise, AI AF and just focus on using the camera to create art.

All cameras today give you the potential to create art. The limitation is not the camera, it is the person using it.

vcxz said:

Many times it's right, but sometimes it gives nonsensical answers

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...just like people on this forum. But we don't judge based on the source. We judge based on the claims and reasons made. We don't say, "hey, you're a human, and sometimes humans give nonsensical answers, therefore you are incorrect".

As for people struggling to get good answers for ChatGPT, the results vary greatly depending on the prompt used. People often blame ChatGPT for poor answers, but they never look at their own prompt. Was it written clearly? Is it narrowly defined? ChatGPT is only as good as the user behind the prompts. If you don't know how to write good prompts, then the answers will likely be of poor quality.

I had a long conversation with ChatGPT about ways to improve the animal eye detect performance on the OM-1, especially when working with low lighting. We went back and forth discussing on how AF works on a more technical level, and ChatGPT suggested improving animal eye AF in low light by using S-OVF mode. And guess what? It works. I would never have thought of this as a solution.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4815853

And it's a solution that I've never seen anyone suggest on this forum. It's providing solutions that no one here can.

So yes, ChatGPT can be very useful. And just like people, it's not faultless. But the quality of the replies you get will greatly depend on your prompt and how you converse with it. Just like a camera, the results are only as good as the photographer behind it.

MimiVivi said:

mmartel said:

M4/3 images bear a sneaky resemblance . . .

... To a cropped full frame shot.

Which isn't (pardon the pun) half bad. At least in my book.

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^ BEST POST ^

Blue ribbon, sir. Now we can all go home. Phew!

No, seriously: if only a summary this clean, this perfect, this true, and this useful would make the rest of the forum as happy as it just made me.

I suppose I can dream. Tx again for putting it out there.

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I'm humbled and grateful, kind forum dweller.

Just doing my job.

--
"Gentlemen, it has been a privilege playing with you tonight." - Titanic musician before their final song