Is the Panasonic S9 a full frame GM1? Does that indicate possible new M4/3 minis?

I feel like we saw the same thing play out twice. The Panasonic S9 is a very fashionable, stripped down, super compact full frame. Its so small, it has no room for an EVF nor IBIS. It has a love/hate community, some adore its cuteness and own 3 different colors while others see it as useless for not having the EVF/IBIS. Just like the GM1. It even looks like the GM1, just a giant version of it. It might not be surprising to see an S9 II or S15 that is the same thing, with an EVF fitted in.

I have to wonder if it increases the chance that Panasonic will surprise with a GM6 or other new miniature. Panasonic pushes these envelops in both lenses and bodies. Current GM5 prices are hitting $2k USED, the cost of a brand new flagship with a nice lens. That tells something about market interest. Is it a higher possibility after the release of the S9 last year?

The S9 is much bigger than a GM1. It’s an L-mount A7C without a grip or EVF.

See GM1 vs A7CR. The A7CR has the bottom grip extension here, so is about the same height as an S9.









A

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
Please feel free to edit any images that I post

xr25 said:

I feel like we saw the same thing play out twice. The Panasonic S9 is a very fashionable, stripped down, super compact full frame. Its so small, it has no room for an EVF nor IBIS.

Click to expand...

The S9 has IBIS, which looking at a couple of reviews works well.

xr25 said:

It has a love/hate community, some adore its cuteness and own 3 different colors while others see it as useless for not having the EVF/IBIS. Just like the GM1. It even looks like the GM1, just a giant version of it. It might not be surprising to see an S9 II or S15 that is the same thing, with an EVF fitted in.

Click to expand...

xr25 said:

I have to wonder if it increases the chance that Panasonic will surprise with a GM6 or other new miniature. Panasonic pushes these envelops in both lenses and bodies. Current GM5 prices are hitting $2k USED, the cost of a brand new flagship with a nice lens. That tells something about market interest. Is it a higher possibility after the release of the S9 last year?

Click to expand...

--
Jim Stirling:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post

xr25 said:

The Panasonic S9 is a very fashionable, stripped down, super compact full frame. Its so small, it has no room for an EVF nor IBIS.

Click to expand...

This statement — packed with hyperboles and wrong claims — does not sit well.

In any event, I doubt Panasonic will be coming back to the GX line, let alone GM — they are busy with other plans. I am certainly not waiting with bated breath.

ahaslett said:

The S9 is much bigger than a GM1. It’s an L-mount A7C without a grip or EVF.

See GM1 vs A7CR. The A7CR has the bottom grip extension here, so is about the same height as an S9.





A

Click to expand...

You don't see the resemblance? I did mention it was a giant version of the GM1.

AshleyMC said:

xr25 said:

The Panasonic S9 is a very fashionable, stripped down, super compact full frame. Its so small, it has no room for an EVF nor IBIS.

Click to expand...

This statement — packed with hyperboles and wrong claims — does not sit well.

In any event, I doubt Panasonic will be coming back to the GX line, let alone GM — they are busy with other plans. I am certainly not waiting with bated breath.

Click to expand...

Sorry to create offense. It does have IBIS, I was wrong about that.

xr25 said:

ahaslett said:

The S9 is much bigger than a GM1. It’s an L-mount A7C without a grip or EVF.

See GM1 vs A7CR. The A7CR has the bottom grip extension here, so is about the same height as an S9.





A

Click to expand...

You don't see the resemblance? I did mention it was a giant version of the GM1.

Click to expand...

They might just produce a giant version of the GM1, but everything that makes the GM1 interesting would be lost. Also it would be like an OM3 without an EVF, weather resistance, or fast sensor readout.

S9 is to iPad Pro as GM1 is to iPhone?

A

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
Please feel free to edit any images that I post

ahaslett said:

xr25 said:

ahaslett said:

The S9 is much bigger than a GM1. It’s an L-mount A7C without a grip or EVF.

See GM1 vs A7CR. The A7CR has the bottom grip extension here, so is about the same height as an S9.





A

Click to expand...

You don't see the resemblance? I did mention it was a giant version of the GM1.

Click to expand...

They might just produce a giant version of the GM1, but everything that makes the GM1 interesting would be lost. Also it would be like an OM3 without an EVF, weather resistance, or fast sensor readout.

S9 is to iPad Pro as GM1 is to iPhone?

A

Click to expand...

If they could use the saved space from the smaller sensor and IBIS unit etc to squeeze in a decent EVF and a few of the current goodies I could see it being adapted into a GX8 sized body. Though I will not be holding my breath









--
Jim Stirling:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post

James Stirling said:

ahaslett said:

xr25 said:

ahaslett said:

The S9 is much bigger than a GM1. It’s an L-mount A7C without a grip or EVF.

See GM1 vs A7CR. The A7CR has the bottom grip extension here, so is about the same height as an S9.





A

Click to expand...

You don't see the resemblance? I did mention it was a giant version of the GM1.

Click to expand...

They might just produce a giant version of the GM1, but everything that makes the GM1 interesting would be lost. Also it would be like an OM3 without an EVF, weather resistance, or fast sensor readout.

S9 is to iPad Pro as GM1 is to iPhone?

A

Click to expand...

If they could use the saved space from the smaller sensor and IBIS unit etc to squeeze in a decent EVF and a few of the current goodies I could see it being adapted into a GX8 sized body. Though I will not be holding my breath

Click to expand...

Back to the A7CR we both have at 519g with EVF, WR, grip, ….

PL 10-25/1.7 vs 20-70/4 G…

OM5, EP7 anyone?

A

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
Please feel free to edit any images that I post

ahaslett said:

James Stirling said:

ahaslett said:

xr25 said:

ahaslett said:

The S9 is much bigger than a GM1. It’s an L-mount A7C without a grip or EVF.

See GM1 vs A7CR. The A7CR has the bottom grip extension here, so is about the same height as an S9.





A

Click to expand...

You don't see the resemblance? I did mention it was a giant version of the GM1.

Click to expand...

They might just produce a giant version of the GM1, but everything that makes the GM1 interesting would be lost. Also it would be like an OM3 without an EVF, weather resistance, or fast sensor readout.

S9 is to iPad Pro as GM1 is to iPhone?

A

Click to expand...

If they could use the saved space from the smaller sensor and IBIS unit etc to squeeze in a decent EVF and a few of the current goodies I could see it being adapted into a GX8 sized body. Though I will not be holding my breath

Click to expand...

Back to the A7CR we both have at 519g with EVF, WR, grip, ….

PL 10-25/1.7 vs 20-70/4 G…

OM5, EP7 anyone?

A

Click to expand...

I am enjoying the 20-70mm it covers a lot of what I like to shoot . I would still love a real GX8 update even if the S9 underpinned it

--
Jim Stirling:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post

James Stirling said:

ahaslett said:

James Stirling said:

ahaslett said:

xr25 said:

ahaslett said:

The S9 is much bigger than a GM1. It’s an L-mount A7C without a grip or EVF.

See GM1 vs A7CR. The A7CR has the bottom grip extension here, so is about the same height as an S9.





A

Click to expand...

You don't see the resemblance? I did mention it was a giant version of the GM1.

Click to expand...

They might just produce a giant version of the GM1, but everything that makes the GM1 interesting would be lost. Also it would be like an OM3 without an EVF, weather resistance, or fast sensor readout.

S9 is to iPad Pro as GM1 is to iPhone?

A

Click to expand...

If they could use the saved space from the smaller sensor and IBIS unit etc to squeeze in a decent EVF and a few of the current goodies I could see it being adapted into a GX8 sized body. Though I will not be holding my breath

Click to expand...

Back to the A7CR we both have at 519g with EVF, WR, grip, ….

PL 10-25/1.7 vs 20-70/4 G…

OM5, EP7 anyone?

A

Click to expand...

I am enjoying the 20-70mm it covers a lot of what I like to shoot . I would still love a real GX8 update even if the S9 underpinned it

Click to expand...

I’m sure you are not alone.

A

--
Infinite are the arguments of mages. Truth is a jewel with many facets. Ursula K LeGuin
Please feel free to edit any images that I post

I have a fleet of GM1 and GM5 bodies. I also have an S9 of more recent times. The S9 does have IBIS, unlike the G100/D camera body.

There is no doubt that the S9 has a similar look to the GM1. Both also lack an evf or a grip surface of any sort. They both have a battery/card composite storage underneath the bottom plate (quite common).

But that is where the resemblance ends. The GM1 is tiny, petite, elegant and easily carried. I don't see it exclusively as a camera that can be pocketed but some might choose to limit the lenses that it can be used with to do so and rather spoil is "packable in a small place" versatility with the larger lenses it can easily be fitted with.

On the other hand the S9 is a hefty lump. Not at all what I would even hazard the description "pocketable" in regards to. When I look up the weight it does not seem "over the fence" so it must be a combination of shape, mass and lack of firm grip. It is not a bad camera however it is deep even if its width and height don't seem too bad. There is an insistent side hinged lcd that adds that little bit of extra depth. I woudl have been happy enough with a fixed lcd.

The best shaped add-on grip is made of wood and whilst "lookin' good" it is quite slippery and does not add as much gripping purchase as its looks might suggest. At a loss to reduce the level of slip and add a it of non-destructive anti-slip surface I have put strips of a product called "Cat Tongue" where my finger and thumb lie. Even so holding the camera body in "single "overhand mode" (portrait mode) with one hand gripping the Cat Tongued assisted gripped body is feeling more than slightly precarious. This is a weighty object and really needs two hands to use.

Although I don't mind the S9 if this is the best that FF can offer as a compact camera then I would rather stick to my G100 type bodies and I truly love my tiny, still very capable, GM5 bodies.

On the other hand I have the G9II which mimics the FF S5II in body shape. This camera fits my hand like a glove and works like an extension of my thought process. Hardly a wonder that FF cameras are manly made as dslr shape clones.

All RF-style camera bodies with the shutter button sitting proud on the top plate and not enough height in the grip to place the little "pinkie" finger securely on the body leave the right hand camera body weight being carried between thumb and two fingers when the index finger is raised on the shutter button. The GM series bodies get away with this because they are very small and light. The weighty S9 struggles to feel comfortable with so little grip by so few digits. In fact if you wish to do something with your thumb when struggling to grip the S9 because of its weight there is not even the consolation of being able to mould the grip into the palm of your hand to free up the thumb.

It is basically quite uncomfortable to use.

But I did say that I quite like it - I suppose that this is despite it being uncomfortable in hand.

If Panasonic were to listen to my rantings then I would suggest a successor with more substantial faux-dslr grip and shutter button in that grip like a faux-dslr - the Sony NEX6 had it right so many years ago. Desperation to mimic the RF-Style results in no moulded grip and the shutter button on the top plate where it is at its most uncomfortable placing.

--
Tom Caldwell

If the GX8 was as large, heavy, and awkward as the S9 I am glad that I did not buy one .....

Some cameras carry their weight well - usually because they are made with a good grip and a well placed shutter button. vide: the near perfect G9II and nearly as good G9.

AshleyMC said:

In any event, I doubt Panasonic will be coming back to the GX line, let alone GM — they are busy with other plans. I am certainly not waiting with bated breath.

Click to expand...

Agreed. I came to that conclusion a number of years ago. So I bought a second used GX85 and then 2 used GX9s.

I would love to see Panasonic produce a GX10, or a GM7. A GM7 would need to have a builtin EVF and be 4K video capable. I don't care about IBIS, but would prefer to not have it. If Panasonic made such a GM7 camera, I would buy it in a heartbeat, but NOT at $2000. Around $1200 would be good.

Tom Caldwell said:

If the GX8 was as large, heavy, and awkward as the S9 I am glad that I did not buy one .....

Click to expand...

Larger and a touch heavier but the grip makes it a better option , for me

Tom Caldwell said:

Some cameras carry their weight well - usually because they are made with a good grip and a well placed shutter button. vide: the near perfect G9II and nearly as good G9.

Click to expand...

--
Jim Stirling:
"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason, is like administering medicine to the dead." - Thomas Paine
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post

The S9 is small for a full frame camera... but it could be smaller. And compared to MFT cameras, it's pretty big.

It's not a photography camera. It's a video-first body that was made for content creators, and in this endeavour it's great... but don't think it's a sign that Lumix is planning on releasing new small and compact MFT bodies.

I'd love to see a GM5 mark II but I'm not holding my breath.

(also, where do you see GM5s for 2k? And more importantly, who actually buys them? I regularly see GM5s for like 700/800€ on MPB and they are already not getting bought because too expensive...)

--
(G.A.S. and collectionnite will get my skin one day)

James Stirling said:

ahaslett said:

James Stirling said:

ahaslett said:

xr25 said:

You don't see the resemblance? I did mention it was a giant version of the GM1.

Click to expand...

They might just produce a giant version of the GM1, but everything that makes the GM1 interesting would be lost. Also it would be like an OM3 without an EVF, weather resistance, or fast sensor readout.

S9 is to iPad Pro as GM1 is to iPhone?

A

Click to expand...

If they could use the saved space from the smaller sensor and IBIS unit etc to squeeze in a decent EVF and a few of the current goodies I could see it being adapted into a GX8 sized body. Though I will not be holding my breath

Click to expand...

I am enjoying the 20-70mm it covers a lot of what I like to shoot . I would still love a real GX8 update even if the S9 underpinned it

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

A GX8 II with updated guts with a higher resolution TILTING EVF would be ideal!

Tom Caldwell said:

All RF-style camera bodies with the shutter button sitting proud on the top plate and ...

It is basically quite uncomfortable to use.

Click to expand...

It has about the same dimensions as GX9 but lighter. It has a grip that is deep enough making it easy to hold and use the camera and the body is also covered with grippy material. In the sprit of making a portable (not pocketable) camera, it does not have IBIS or built-in flash, so the camera is much lighter than GX9. All of these result in a compact body camera with superb ergonomic. So design matters, not all "compact body" cameras are created equal.

Tom Caldwell said:

If the GX8 was as large, heavy, and awkward as the S9 I am glad that I did not buy one .....

Click to expand...

The GX8 was an extremely well designed camera from a carrying point of view. It had a small, but very capable, grip. The only thing I found a bit (physically) irritating, from a grip standpoint, was the slight ridge where the body met the bottom plate, that, at the bottom right corner, bit into the ball of my hand after a while. And, I learned to ignore that over time.

The GX8 fit both large and small hands well. And it was nicely balanced overall.

Tom Caldwell said:

Some cameras carry their weight well - usually because they are made with a good grip and a well placed shutter button. vide: the near perfect G9II and nearly as good G9.

Click to expand...

I, of little hands, couldn't even get my fingers fully around the G9 grip. It was decidedly unpleasant to use because of that. The S5II, which has the same body as the G9II is ergonomically terrific, even for my petite paws. (The S5 was not as good at all, even though the changes were subtle between that and the II).

And, here's the kicker: I like the S9. With no grip. Handles just fine for me. It does behave very well with even the larger 28-200mm, in my hands. (No, I am not planning to use the 100-500mm on it when I get that, though ;-) ). I had actually even ordered a grip for it when I first got the camera, but I found it so uncomfortable with it attached that I sent it back, and have used it naked ever since. (The camera, not me).

And, I never used/use a grip on the GM1 or GM5 (I have the little GM5 factory grip, but it was kind of useless, so it's sitting in a box somewhere, gathering dust).

So, hand size and lenses used all factor in here...

Panasonic is filling out its FF line with a whole bevvy of creatively designed cameras (and lenses). ALL of the new lens releases are SMALL in FF terms. (Not small in M43 terms, though, although the 100mm macro is an M43 sized lens for that focal length. And the 100-500mm is darn close to the PL 100-400mm in size).

There is no way on this planet that Panasonic is going to release another GM1/5 M43 body. The have the (inexpensive, small, but not tiny, very capable) G100D, and there is no need in the line for a jewel-like upper end model that duplicates that body.

I mean, think about it: M43 is a mature setup. If they make new bodies, where are the added profits going to come from? Lenses? No. There's a lot of M43 gear out there, and the chances of them selling up from what's out there now are small.

On the other hand the FF market is new, so with new bodies, new lenses are likely to be bought, as there's nothing out there already (either new or used) that can substitute. And, each new lens announcement is going to encourage users to open their wallets, which won't happen in M43.

So, no. No new GM-type bodies. If M43 is REALLY lucky, it will get a rangefinder with all the goodies. But I'm not holding my breath about that, either.

-J