A modern GM5 or PEN-F?

cba_melbourne said:

Tom Caldwell said:

cba_melbourne said:

I would be interested. I own two GM1, two GM5, ond one Pen-F.

My 5 cents worth of suggestions:

A modern GM5 could succeed today. Just look at the prices for used 10 year old GM5's. Just do not plan to sell 30,000 units. I think 1,000 units per year is more realistic, for a 5,000 unit total. At a unit retail price under 1,500USD. Else you start competing with the red dot cameras. The GM5 was $900 10 years ago. Add inflation and it's $1,230 today. And that is what a 10 year old GM5 in mint condition, original box and less than 2,000 clicks sells for today.

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Good reasoning.

cba_melbourne said:

- Not bigger nor heavier then the GM5. Ideally, you very slightly undercut the GM5 to take away it's current ranking as "the smallest digital ILC camera with an EVF ever made".

- no need for IBIS at this size. But a digital stabilization should be feasible today.

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Yes, be sensible, even if IBIS is a specification box that has become almost essential to tick off.

cba_melbourne said:

- consider a pop-up EVF like on the RX100 or A7C, but it is not a must. An EVF is a must though in 2025.

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Too hard - place it like the GM5 evf - even with an accessory eye-cup if necessary

cba_melbourne said:

- sensor should be 20MP.

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Yes.

cba_melbourne said:

- global shutter would be great. Else you will have to design a super compact miniature single curtain shutter similar to the GM series

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If Panasonic is not interested in returning to the GM5 market to squash a rival product then they might be willing to supply the shutter module.

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No way. That GM1/5 shutter has been installed in many many Panasonic cameras since. And is still today installed in the G100. For Panasonic, that single curtain miniature shutter has paid for it's R&D many times over. Any Panasonic body with the 1/500s speed limit and and the 1/60s flash sync limit, has THAT very GM shutter inside. Panasonic is NOT going to give away that precious shutter to the competition anytime soon.

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I can't see why Panasonic could not sell its shutter module for another company to instal. They could make some good small change on the side. The camera industry is full of shared components made by other companies. From Sony sensors to "secret" rebranded full lenses - like the Olympus 75/1.8 that "everybody knows" was made by Sigma.

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

- no need for a tilt or flip screen, that is not possible at this size scale.

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No, no, no ..... this is a compact full capability "proper" tiny camera for serious use - not a pocketable point'n'shoot.

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Consider that anything bare a fixed screen, will necessarilay add at least 3-5mm to the thickness of any body. The GM cameras are only 30mm thick lens flange to back. 5 more mm would mean 17% thicker.

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We agree there. A fixed lcd has to be cheaper as well and is not a great burden on such a small camera body with a usable evf.

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

- no need for exaggerated video specs, that is not possible (or too expensive to keep cool) at this size as you would have to use phone type of circuit iniaturisation.

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No video at all would be ok - the size of the video market is probably exaggerated and pumped up by the fact that providing good video in larger bodies does not add much to the cost of supplying the stills-capture capacity. No camera this size is going to be able to compete with the larger bodies in the video wars. Arguably: why try? The video capabilities of the G100 were derided.

cba_melbourne said:

- it would be fantastic if it could have PDAF AF. But buyers would understand if it was not possible.

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Fantastic would be good ....

cba_melbourne said:

- consider it having B&W capabilities, maybe similar to what Pixii camera does. Or consider offering a separate version with true B&W no color mask sensor.

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Maybe down the track after a standard run? These days whilst I quite like and use B&W I know that colour images are what sells.

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But leica does well with their luxury "monochrom" bodies

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If they are game then go for it. But I suspect that Leica carries a cachet all of its own.

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

- consider a purpose made very small battery that lasts at least 200 clicks. One that ideally can be re-charged with a small phone power bank.

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Mmmm could the GM5 battery size/type be re-used - would be handy for some of "us" GM series people ....

cba_melbourne said:

- do not incorporate a grip. Offer an easily detachable grip instead. So users have a choice.

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Yes, but encourage an after market company to make a Franiec-type grip replica accessory.

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Either that, or better supply a grip as standard, but easily removable (like with a pushbutton lock), not glued-on like the Franiec was.

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The Franiec grip was tiny and unobtrusive. I have never felt that I needed to remove it. I am not at all sold on the more common type which included a tripod mount screwed on plate underneath the camera body and needed an access hole so that the battery and card could be accessed - preferably with tweezers .....

But there was an effective way to remove the Franiec grip and I even did this once when I ran out of grips after Richard stopped supplying them.

cba_melbourne said:

Removable, because some days you go out with larger/heavier lenses and would want a grip, some other days you go out with the smallest lightest pancake lenses for pocketability and don't want nor need a grip.

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I might wonder, with respect, if you ever had a Franiec grip as it was minimal in size, was a sophisticated shape to gave that little bit extra for finger grip, and did not protrude past the lens stub. So I have never seen that type of grip in particular worrying anyone's idea of pocketability. (Whichever lens was in use).

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

cba_melbourne said:

- do NOT use cheap plastic. Make it a Magnesium body like the GM1/GM5.

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Essential - to make it seem cheap in any way would be a disaster.

cba_melbourne said:

- no need for weather sealing. It is too expensive to do at this small size.

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Agree, lots of wishing for a camera body that is virtually submersible. But it needs to be able to survive and accidental wetting - one of mine did and I remember a story about one lost in a snow drift that was retrieved after a melt and still worked.

cba_melbourne said:

- keep the menu super simple. Consider giving it the ability to have the desired camera settings user programmed by a phone app via wifi. Nowdays no-one goes out with a camera without having a phone in the pocket too. And those that do, can preset the desired setting for the day at home. This system greatly simplifies the camera menu system, and a phone has a much larger screen than a GM sized camera can ever have.

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Recently I was using a camera linked to a phone in my pocket and every shot went directly to my phone as it was captured - sheer magic for later distribution.

cba_melbourne said:

- do not consider using Android as camera operating system. The GM5 successor must be ready to shoot in under 1 second from being turned on. Can't wait for an OS to boot for 10 or 20 seconds.

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Agree. A short cut to misery.

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AshleyMC said:

Mitchell Clark said:

something small enough that you can carry it around pretty much everywhere, and maybe even fit it in your pocket.

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Which kinds of pocket?

Smartphones fit in pants pockets, even jeans back pockets. Oh yeah, iPhone 17 Air.

Fujifilm X half, Sony RX100, Panasonic ZS100, Olympus TG-6… should fit in jacket pockets.

Pansonic GX85 + 20mm, Fujifilm X-E5 + 23/28mm… should clumsily fit in jacket pockets.

We are talking about “pancake” prime lenses here.

All interchangeable-lens cameras, no matter how slim and compact, do not stand a chance (relative to “fit in your pocket” advatange) when the question of lenses is left open.

MFT lenses are comparatively smaller, but their dimensions are far from “tiny”.

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The 14/2.5 is tiny. 55g heavy and 2.05cm long. With fast AF and incredibly good IQ for it's size. GM1/GM5 is shirt pocketable with that lens (think a denim shirt, not a fine dress shirt).

When we say the GM cameras are pocketable, we mean it can be pocketable with a select very small set of pancake lenses. Hence the GM are fully pocketable ILC cameras.

But the same GM can also be used the next day with large lenses that far exceed its own weight. Without being pocketable anymore in such configuration. But still being a fully usable ILC camera perfectly suitable for many genres of photography. Obviously not extreme ones like BIF and fast action.

AshleyMC said:

A slim and compact ILC with a body cap on the lens mount is useless.

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The 14/2.8 and the 20/1.7 and the collapsible 12-32 are vastly superior to bodycap lenses.

… to pay for Côme‘s increased ibuprofen consumption. I either respect or pity (or both?) his team’s attempt to preview their concept to the larger photographic community - because the amount of bellyaching and complaining the unveiling is generating is both as expected and nothing short of spectacular.

People, either sign on to their vision or don’t. I choose to participate.

It's very courageous and ambitious to start a new camera brand today.

What I think, to make this a big hit, is that it needs to be mind blowingly SUPER GOOD in a small tiny package.

Is it do-able? I'll say yes!

Imagine the size of a Panny GF or Oly EM10. Has a 20MP global shutter sensor. Using vapour chamber pipes (since no IBIS). Runs on CFe type A card with internal storage (configurable storage modes). Very fast AF with Ai tracking. Can do 16fps with pre-capture. Weather sealed. Full articulated bright OLED touch screen. Other user's configurable stuffs, like custom user menu/film profiles/recipes/modes etc. EVF is optional accessory that can be fitted onto a socket.

I seriously feel something like this can sell for USD2500. A truly small high speed silent shooter!

Of cos' for those who needs to hear shutter sound, there's an audio on/off for that, selectable among many different mech sound effects or leaf-shutter sound effects.

silentstorm said:

It's very courageous and ambitious to start a new camera brand today.

What I think, to make this a big hit, is that it needs to be mind blowingly SUPER GOOD in a small tiny package.

Is it do-able? I'll say yes!

Imagine the size of a Panny GF or Oly EM10. Has a 20MP global shutter sensor. Using vapour chamber pipes (since no IBIS). Runs on CFe type A card with internal storage (configurable storage modes). Very fast AF with Ai tracking. Can do 16fps with pre-capture. Weather sealed. Full articulated bright OLED touch screen. Other user's configurable stuffs, like custom user menu/film profiles/recipes/modes etc. EVF is optional accessory that can be fitted onto a socket.

I seriously feel something like this can sell for USD2500. A truly small high speed silent shooter!

Of cos' for those who needs to hear shutter sound, there's an audio on/off for that, selectable among many different mech sound effects or leaf-shutter sound effects.

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'do-able' with global shutter under USD 2,000, or 2,500? Interesting.

When the α9 was released in 2017, everyone dreamed that by now, mechanical shutters would be a thing of the past in all cameras.

In a way, that dream has come true - tragically so. Despite having atrociously poor readout speeds that make electronic shutters unsuitable as a main feature, manufacturers have blatantly removed mechanical shutters and started marketing these bodies primarily for vlogging. And these bodies are steadily gaining market share - For bean counters, sales numbers are all that matter.

Of course only Esquisse can answer to us, but it would be fantastic if they could manage to source something like the IMX272(in GH5/G9). However, in reality, even Panasonic is still using the IMX269 to this day.

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

Skeeterbytes said:

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

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You are probably right. This is not gong to be a small GM successor yet. The GM size class would require lots of far too expensive R&D in miniaturization. It is going to be an attempt at a much larger (but still smallish) camera. More like sort of a Pen-F successor, sized somewhere between a GM and an OM5. And aimed at stills only.

And I suspect it could be along the lines of the French made Pixii camera, but for m43 lenses instead of Leica M lenses. I wonder if there is already some sort of R&D cooperation with the Pixii team. Pixii too uses a body machined from a dual block of solid Aluminium. Just as planned by Côme Courteault, as he lays out in this interview: https://www.thephoblographer.com/2025/09/25/the-team-who-could-save-four-thirds-for-photography/

Skeeterbytes said:

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

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Skeeterbytes said:

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

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As noted - it would be a decision made by Panasonic and they could charge a reasonable commercial rate to sell their shutter module to a start up company. Or they could charge a silly price that would mean that it was not a viable commercial decision.

As I understand it the shutter module in the GM series was an unique compact design from Panasonic engineers that they were reported to be very proud of at the time. Obviously it was thought a serious engineering achievement. To re-invent it when you are a start up company without breaking any patents would be a big ask.

A lot would depend on whether Panasonic still harboured designs to have another "lash" at making their own GM5 update. If that hankering is finished forever then why not sell their shutter module to another firm? If of course Panasonic believes that it "owns" the market for a GM5 type camera it would be far easier for them to re-enter it with an updated GM5 well before another company gets off the ground and also at a fairly keen price. In that case the shutter module is a critical component and not for sale at any do-able price.

A good idea for an updated GM5 would suddenly be dead in the water unless it was made by Panasonic. Sorry.

Global shutters are barely in the realms of big-business technology and likely to be well beyond the resources of a start up company with no previously established market. Sorry again.

cba_melbourne said:

Skeeterbytes said:

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

Click to expand...

You are probably right. This is not gong to be a small GM successor yet. The GM size class would require lots of far too expensive R&D in miniaturization. It is going to be an attempt at a much larger (but still smallish) camera. More like sort of a Pen-F successor, sized somewhere between a GM and an OM5. And aimed at stills only.

And I suspect it could be along the lines of the French made Pixii camera, but for m43 lenses instead of Leica M lenses. I wonder if there is already some sort of R&D cooperation with the Pixii team. Pixii too uses a body machined from a dual block of solid Aluminium. Just as planned by Côme Courteault, as he lays out in this interview: https://www.thephoblographer.com/2025/09/25/the-team-who-could-save-four-thirds-for-photography/

cba_melbourne said:

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

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I was thinking GM5+ by the illustration. Now accept that the Pen-F reprise is the hot favourite. Might be a harder sell to this old GM5 reprobate.

But maybe the US$2,000 projected price will sell enough of a Pen-F update than the same number of GM5+ bodies to make it a better commercial proposition.

Tom Caldwell said:

cba_melbourne said:

Skeeterbytes said:

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

Click to expand...

You are probably right. This is not gong to be a small GM successor yet. The GM size class would require lots of far too expensive R&D in miniaturization. It is going to be an attempt at a much larger (but still smallish) camera. More like sort of a Pen-F successor, sized somewhere between a GM and an OM5. And aimed at stills only.

And I suspect it could be along the lines of the French made Pixii camera, but for m43 lenses instead of Leica M lenses. I wonder if there is already some sort of R&D cooperation with the Pixii team. Pixii too uses a body machined from a dual block of solid Aluminium. Just as planned by Côme Courteault, as he lays out in this interview: https://www.thephoblographer.com/2025/09/25/the-team-who-could-save-four-thirds-for-photography/

Tom Caldwell said:

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

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I was thinking GM5+ by the illustration. Now accept that the Pen-F reprise is the hot favourite. Might be a harder sell to this old GM5 reprobate.

But maybe the US$2,000 projected price will sell enough of a Pen-F update than the same number of GM5+ bodies to make it a better commercial proposition.

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I think it is a good choice. A larger Pen-F or G100 sized body is a much easier undertaking for a startup company's first product. Still a lot of challenges ahead, but at least not the extra complication of miniaturization, beyond what is commonly found in "standard" cameras.

The problem of advertising the new product as sort of Pen-F successor, is that it sets a very high bar for (retro) design, and impeccable execution quality.

An advantage is that the Pen-F always was a very high priced camera (and I mean high for the technological features/specifications it offered, compared to other Olympus bodies. Not high for the design and premium execution). One that retained it's value just as good as the GM5. These two bodies became cult cameras, and have the highest value retention of any m43 camera ever made. This may help making the new product at predicted US$2 to 2.5k more acceptable/palatable to some prospective buyers.

But let's be plain honest, at such high price it will never sell in any significant quantity beyond a few hundred a year, if it does not include PDAF and IBIS and specifications that greatly exceed an OM5 and are very close to an OM3. Because in the Pen-F / G100 (medium/smallish) size class, there is fierce competition at half that much asking money.

Tom Caldwell said:

Skeeterbytes said:

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

Click to expand...

As noted - it would be a decision made by Panasonic and they could charge a reasonable commercial rate to sell their shutter module to a start up company. Or they could charge a silly price that would mean that it was not a viable commercial decision.

As I understand it the shutter module in the GM series was an unique compact design from Panasonic engineers that they were reported to be very proud of at the time. Obviously it was thought a serious engineering achievement. To re-invent it when you are a start up company without breaking any patents would be a big ask.

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It's commoditized by now, being their chosen shutter for numerous of their entry level cameras. Regardless, spec'ing one for this new venture would be a bad move.

Tom Caldwell said:

A lot would depend on whether Panasonic still harboured designs to have another "lash" at making their own GM5 update. If that hankering is finished forever then why not sell their shutter module to another firm? If of course Panasonic believes that it "owns" the market for a GM5 type camera it would be far easier for them to re-enter it with an updated GM5 well before another company gets off the ground and also at a fairly keen price. In that case the shutter module is a critical component and not for sale at any do-able price.

A good idea for an updated GM5 would suddenly be dead in the water unless it was made by Panasonic. Sorry.

Global shutters are barely in the realms of big-business technology and likely to be well beyond the resources of a start up company with no previously established market. Sorry again.

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Given we now have 135 format global shutter sensors one presumes a 4/3 one is feasible. IDK if that's within the realm of this project but it's surely coming for the format. OM-1/3 shooters aren't compelled to use the mechanical shutter as things stand today.

Hey! I'm reading everything here and taking notes. I'm sorry we can't comment everything just yet, but the feedback is very interesting.

cba_melbourne said:

The problem of advertising the new product as sort of Pen-F successor, is that it sets a very high bar for (retro) design, and impeccable execution quality.

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To be clear we don't This is not a successor to the Pen-F nor to the GM5. If you look at the dimensions, the body intends to be a fair bit smaller than the Pen-F but a little bit bigger than the GM5, with different choices both ergonomically and in terms of design.

We do however intend to offer an impeccable execution quality indeed

Skeeterbytes said:

Tom Caldwell said:

Skeeterbytes said:

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

Click to expand...

As noted - it would be a decision made by Panasonic and they could charge a reasonable commercial rate to sell their shutter module to a start up company. Or they could charge a silly price that would mean that it was not a viable commercial decision.

As I understand it the shutter module in the GM series was an unique compact design from Panasonic engineers that they were reported to be very proud of at the time. Obviously it was thought a serious engineering achievement. To re-invent it when you are a start up company without breaking any patents would be a big ask.

Click to expand...

It's commoditized by now, being their chosen shutter for numerous of their entry level cameras. Regardless, spec'ing one for this new venture would be a bad move.

Skeeterbytes said:

A lot would depend on whether Panasonic still harboured designs to have another "lash" at making their own GM5 update. If that hankering is finished forever then why not sell their shutter module to another firm? If of course Panasonic believes that it "owns" the market for a GM5 type camera it would be far easier for them to re-enter it with an updated GM5 well before another company gets off the ground and also at a fairly keen price. In that case the shutter module is a critical component and not for sale at any do-able price.

A good idea for an updated GM5 would suddenly be dead in the water unless it was made by Panasonic. Sorry.

Global shutters are barely in the realms of big-business technology and likely to be well beyond the resources of a start up company with no previously established market. Sorry again.

Click to expand...

Given we now have 135 format global shutter sensors one presumes a 4/3 one is feasible. IDK if that's within the realm of this project but it's surely coming for the format. OM-1/3 shooters aren't compelled to use the mechanical shutter as things stand today.

Click to expand...

For my professional work the mechanical shutter is still essential. The new stacked sensor is much less prone to banding, but mechanical shutter is still better. I always use mechanical in concert situations unless the material is all-acoustic and the shutter sound would be distracting.

That said, for this type of camera I would be okay with electronic-only if it had the stacked sensor!

Sam Bennett said:

Skeeterbytes said:

Given we now have 135 format global shutter sensors one presumes a 4/3 one is feasible. IDK if that's within the realm of this project but it's surely coming for the format. OM-1/3 shooters aren't compelled to use the mechanical shutter as things stand today.

Click to expand...

For my professional work the mechanical shutter is still essential. The new stacked sensor is much less prone to banding, but mechanical shutter is still better. I always use mechanical in concert situations unless the material is all-acoustic and the shutter sound would be distracting.

That said, for this type of camera I would be okay with electronic-only if it had the stacked sensor!

Click to expand...

I could see banding being a thing. Have not encountered it with either stadium or gym lighting, but stage lighting is a whole different realm.

For sure the e-shutter now doesn't deliver horrors like this, from merely panning.



Rick

Skeeterbytes said:

Sam Bennett said:

Skeeterbytes said:

Given we now have 135 format global shutter sensors one presumes a 4/3 one is feasible. IDK if that's within the realm of this project but it's surely coming for the format. OM-1/3 shooters aren't compelled to use the mechanical shutter as things stand today.

Click to expand...

For my professional work the mechanical shutter is still essential. The new stacked sensor is much less prone to banding, but mechanical shutter is still better. I always use mechanical in concert situations unless the material is all-acoustic and the shutter sound would be distracting.

That said, for this type of camera I would be okay with electronic-only if it had the stacked sensor!

Click to expand...

I could see banding being a thing. Have not encountered it with either stadium or gym lighting, but stage lighting is a whole different realm.

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Even indoors in my home it’s problematic. In that case it’s pretty easy to keep shutter speeds more around 1/60th where it’s a complete non-issue for the new sensors.

Skeeterbytes said:

For sure the e-shutter now doesn't deliver horrors like this, from merely panning.



Rick

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Yeah it’s waaaaaay better now! But still room for improvement.

--
Sam Bennett
Instagram: @swiftbennett

There once was some sort of competition on just how much M4/3 kit could fit in a small bag - rather than "pocketable".

I had an idea based on pro-shooter kit based on multiple dslr cameras used to save lens swapping in the field. I figured out that multiple GM5 "cameras" could be fitted into a shoulder bag and give considerable extra horsepower with easy of swapping of lens capabilities whilst retaining the consistent look, setup, and feel of the same camera body. Spare batteries would be interchangeable and backup camera bodies "automatic".

Its been a while, but here is a link:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61957246

--
Tom Caldwell

The wonderful thing about small but capable M4/3rds bodies is the ability to carry more than one, each with a different lens, in a fairly light package . The practical reality of multiple lens plus bodies rather than body with multiple lenses is greatly improved convenience in the field.

F.

Skeeterbytes said:

Tom Caldwell said:

Skeeterbytes said:

Shutters are built by 3rd folks like Seiko and Citizen and Copal, et al. Presumably, they would sell to any camera builder who approaches them.

Why anybody would choose to spec the sad one-blade 1/500 Lumix unit for a high-end camera instead of a proper two-blade 1/4000 or 8000 unit can remain unexplored. They're not doing that and still selling their expensive bespoke camera.

OTOH a true global shutter sensor would be groundbreaking in the format and generate interest for its own sake. Not a prediction, just a longtime dream for some folks.

Rick

Click to expand...

As noted - it would be a decision made by Panasonic and they could charge a reasonable commercial rate to sell their shutter module to a start up company. Or they could charge a silly price that would mean that it was not a viable commercial decision.

As I understand it the shutter module in the GM series was an unique compact design from Panasonic engineers that they were reported to be very proud of at the time. Obviously it was thought a serious engineering achievement. To re-invent it when you are a start up company without breaking any patents would be a big ask.

Click to expand...

It's commoditized by now, being their chosen shutter for numerous of their entry level cameras. Regardless, spec'ing one for this new venture would be a bad move.

Click to expand...

Its an extremely thin shutter designed for the smallest digital ILC cameras ever made. For that application, eg a GM successor, it is perfectly fine even today.

But now we are talking a much larger Pen-F / G100 sized camera. For that, I agree 100% with your observation. For that you can better use a much higher spec off-the-shelf shutter from Copal etc. as there is plenty of space for it. I never understood why the G100 was using that single curtain miniature shutter.

Skeeterbytes said:

Skeeterbytes said:

A lot would depend on whether Panasonic still harboured designs to have another "lash" at making their own GM5 update. If that hankering is finished forever then why not sell their shutter module to another firm? If of course Panasonic believes that it "owns" the market for a GM5 type camera it would be far easier for them to re-enter it with an updated GM5 well before another company gets off the ground and also at a fairly keen price. In that case the shutter module is a critical component and not for sale at any do-able price.

A good idea for an updated GM5 would suddenly be dead in the water unless it was made by Panasonic. Sorry.

Global shutters are barely in the realms of big-business technology and likely to be well beyond the resources of a start up company with no previously established market. Sorry again.

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Given we now have 135 format global shutter sensors one presumes a 4/3 one is feasible. IDK if that's within the realm of this project but it's surely coming for the format. OM-1/3 shooters aren't compelled to use the mechanical shutter as things stand today.

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Tom Caldwell said:

There once was some sort of competition on just how much M4/3 kit could fit in a small bag - rather than "pocketable".

I had an idea based on pro-shooter kit based on multiple dslr cameras used to save lens swapping in the field. I figured out that multiple GM5 "cameras" could be fitted into a shoulder bag and give considerable extra horsepower with easy of swapping of lens capabilities whilst retaining the consistent look, setup, and feel of the same camera body. Spare batteries would be interchangeable and backup camera bodies "automatic".

Its been a while, but here is a link:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/61957246

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Exactly Tom. Pocketable does not at all mean ALWAYS pocketable like a fixed lens camera a la RX100 etc.

With GM ILC cameras pocketable means it can be pocketable today, with the tiniest few pancake lenses we have in m43 mounted.

But tomorrow it may be fitted with the 7-14/4 or the 12-40/2.8 or the 60 macro and is not pocketable anymore and needs a waist bag. Or the larger lens is separately in a pocket, and gets only swapped-in for a few shots.

And yes, in a waist bag like the Lowepro m-Trekker HP120 I can fit two GM cameras each with a lens mounted, Plus one or two extra lenses depending on size. I often add the 60 macro, or the 7-14. depending on my mood and plan for the day.

A GM ILC camera offers the invaluable OPTION to be pocketable when and if so desired. But it is also a fully capable travel camera for larger lenses, when and if so desired.

It is having the choice to make it pocketable when needed, that makes it so valuable to me. Cameras the size of a Pen-F or G100 or GX9 do not offer this option unless we are talking a roomy winter coat pocket. Even larger bodies like an OM5 and up will never really fit in any pocket.

radix1 said:

Mitchell Clark said:

Hey all, Mitchell here. This morning I posted a story about Esquisse Camera, a team trying to make a Micro Four Thirds camera in the style of the GM5 or PEN-F; something small enough that you can carry it around pretty much everywhere, and maybe even fit it in your pocket.

I'm interested to hear what the folks here think about it. Is this something you've been hoping for? Do you think this project will succeed? Are there any questions you have? Let us know!

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and EVF is fine.

Just make the LCD tilted only, not fully rotated.

price should be the same, lower would be appreciated.

Cheers.

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Of course it would be appreciated . But realistically, price can never be the same again:

Pen-F was US$1,200 in early 2016. Just adding inflation makes this $1,640 today.

Then the Pen-F was made in much larger numbers than likely any OM camera ever since. It was a different time, with camera sales still booming and m43 market share at it's top. Today manufacturing batch size would be at least 5 times smaller, more like 10 times smaller. Turning the $1,640 more into something between $2-2,5k, as estimated by Mr Côme Courteault.

Manufacturing batch size greatly affects the cost of a camera. Côme plans to cnc machine the body out of a solid Aluminium billet. That is very expensive per unit, but much cheaper than magnesium molding, if you are just planning to make less than say a 1000 cameras per year. There is a reason Leica uses this method too.