Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
Welcome to the Rabbit Hole. It goes waaay down!There is a world of possibility with classic lenses and modern adapters such as these
MAB II camera with Mamiya G 50mm f/4 L and GFX 100S
I am on a dark path, am I not?
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645s on GFX - third party wide-angle options
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I am on a dark path, am I not?
Rob de Loe
Veteran Member
You sure are. If you like movements, there are lots of technical cameras that can give you what you want.I am on a dark path, am I not?Welcome to the Rabbit Hole. It goes waaay down!There is a world of possibility with classic lenses and modern adapters such as these
MAB II camera with Mamiya G 50mm f/4 L and GFX 100S
I could definitely benefit from taking my time more often and making stiched and in some cases also focus stacked shifted images of nature. I tend to always push the limits of what I can get away with handheld and that damn IBIS is quite effective. I actually find it more usable on the 100s II than on my X-T5. The latter is just a brutal pixel pitch and also in a very light camera body.
As to lenses, the Mamiya 80/1.9. One wouldn't believe it seeing it wide open, but stopped down two or three, it evens out and becomes a rather sharp lens across the frame and a usefull FOV on the "mini"-mf sensors of today. It stitches great, even handheld when shifted horizontally. On the Kipon shift adapter you end up with about 150mp 65:24s with neglible and easilly managed soft vignetting in the very extreme corners at max shift.
There is a world of possibility with classic lenses and modern adapters such as these
Yes, and as Rob implied, if you get the bug it's a never-ending exploration. Agree that the 80mm 1.9 is special. It was a one of a kind in it's time, and keeps a unique rendering of out of focus areas. The portraits I took with it are not comparable to anything else. Whether aesthetic or not is probably a matter of personal taste. Not sure it was a good shot but this was taken-stitched with it at f1.9 on a shift adapter (for Sony). Stopped down it is indeed very sharp.
Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
You sure are. If you like movements, there are lots of technical cameras that can give you what you want.I am on a dark path, am I not?Welcome to the Rabbit Hole. It goes waaay down!There is a world of possibility with classic lenses and modern adapters such as these
MAB II camera with Mamiya G 50mm f/4 L and GFX 100S
I am trying to stay away from the lure of 4x5 or even larger. I tell myself I would need loads of stuff, a new developing tank or at least holders, this and that. At most, at most some 6x17 solution, maybe at some point. But hum, I could get a back for 4x5.... christ!
Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
Yes, and as Rob implied, if you get the bug it's a never-ending exploration. Agree that the 80mm 1.9 is special. It was a one of a kind in it's time, and keeps a unique rendering of out of focus areas. The portraits I took with it are not comparable to anything else. Whether aesthetic or not is probably a matter of personal taste. Not sure it was a good shot but this was taken-stitched with it at f1.9 on a shift adapter (for Sony). Stopped down it is indeed very sharp.I could definitely benefit from taking my time more often and making stiched and in some cases also focus stacked shifted images of nature. I tend to always push the limits of what I can get away with handheld and that damn IBIS is quite effective. I actually find it more usable on the 100s II than on my X-T5. The latter is just a brutal pixel pitch and also in a very light camera body.
As to lenses, the Mamiya 80/1.9. One wouldn't believe it seeing it wide open, but stopped down two or three, it evens out and becomes a rather sharp lens across the frame and a usefull FOV on the "mini"-mf sensors of today. It stitches great, even handheld when shifted horizontally. On the Kipon shift adapter you end up with about 150mp 65:24s with neglible and easilly managed soft vignetting in the very extreme corners at max shift.
There is a world of possibility with classic lenses and modern adapters such as these
Yeah the 80/1.9 is a weird one, not neccessarily beautiful in all circumstances. More close up wide open it is fun.
..and then it gets interesting at slightly longer distances..
Yeah the 80/1.9 is a weird one, not neccessarily beautiful in all circumstances. More close up wide open it is fun.Yes, and as Rob implied, if you get the bug it's a never-ending exploration. Agree that the 80mm 1.9 is special. It was a one of a kind in it's time, and keeps a unique rendering of out of focus areas. The portraits I took with it are not comparable to anything else. Whether aesthetic or not is probably a matter of personal taste. Not sure it was a good shot but this was taken-stitched with it at f1.9 on a shift adapter (for Sony). Stopped down it is indeed very sharp.I could definitely benefit from taking my time more often and making stiched and in some cases also focus stacked shifted images of nature. I tend to always push the limits of what I can get away with handheld and that damn IBIS is quite effective. I actually find it more usable on the 100s II than on my X-T5. The latter is just a brutal pixel pitch and also in a very light camera body.
As to lenses, the Mamiya 80/1.9. One wouldn't believe it seeing it wide open, but stopped down two or three, it evens out and becomes a rather sharp lens across the frame and a usefull FOV on the "mini"-mf sensors of today. It stitches great, even handheld when shifted horizontally. On the Kipon shift adapter you end up with about 150mp 65:24s with neglible and easilly managed soft vignetting in the very extreme corners at max shift.
There is a world of possibility with classic lenses and modern adapters such as these
..and then it gets interesting at slightly longer distances..
The last one shows the characteristic bokeh particularly well. Sort of frizzante foamy out of focus areas.
Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
Yep, its absolute insanity, not saying I like it, but I giggle when seeing that effectThe last one shows the characteristic bokeh particularly well. Sort of frizzante foamy out of focus areas.Yeah the 80/1.9 is a weird one, not neccessarily beautiful in all circumstances. More close up wide open it is fun.Yes, and as Rob implied, if you get the bug it's a never-ending exploration. Agree that the 80mm 1.9 is special. It was a one of a kind in it's time, and keeps a unique rendering of out of focus areas. The portraits I took with it are not comparable to anything else. Whether aesthetic or not is probably a matter of personal taste. Not sure it was a good shot but this was taken-stitched with it at f1.9 on a shift adapter (for Sony). Stopped down it is indeed very sharp.I could definitely benefit from taking my time more often and making stiched and in some cases also focus stacked shifted images of nature. I tend to always push the limits of what I can get away with handheld and that damn IBIS is quite effective. I actually find it more usable on the 100s II than on my X-T5. The latter is just a brutal pixel pitch and also in a very light camera body.
As to lenses, the Mamiya 80/1.9. One wouldn't believe it seeing it wide open, but stopped down two or three, it evens out and becomes a rather sharp lens across the frame and a usefull FOV on the "mini"-mf sensors of today. It stitches great, even handheld when shifted horizontally. On the Kipon shift adapter you end up with about 150mp 65:24s with neglible and easilly managed soft vignetting in the very extreme corners at max shift.
There is a world of possibility with classic lenses and modern adapters such as these
..and then it gets interesting at slightly longer distances..
Rob de Loe
Veteran Member
If the thought popped into your head that you could put something digital on the back of a 4x5 camera, I recommend you usher that thought out the door! For a host of reasons I'd be happy to go into if you're interested, it's a non-started (with very few edge case exceptions).I am trying to stay away from the lure of 4x5 or even larger. I tell myself I would need loads of stuff, a new developing tank or at least holders, this and that. At most, at most some 6x17 solution, maybe at some point. But hum, I could get a back for 4x5.... christ!
Long story short, digital is merciless and unforgiving of misalignments that don't bother 4x5 film at at all.
There are lots of technical camera outfits made for digital that give you the movements of a 4x5 camera. I use an Arca-Swiss F-Universalis as my "work truck" technical camera with a GFX 100S. The camera in the picture is a much lighter, more compact technical camera I just built (my "fun car" camera). Other options are the Cambo Actus G (for GFX) and the Arca-Swiss Pico. Swebo makes a rig too, but the one I tried didn't cut it for me. And then there are the rigid technical cameras that take medium format backs. Lots of options!
Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
Sir, there is a lot of good info in this, thank you! Even if slightly offhand, yeah, I have had...ideas...If the thought popped into your head that you could put something digital on the back of a 4x5 camera, I recommend you usher that thought out the door! For a host of reasons I'd be happy to go into if you're interested, it's a non-started (with very few edge case exceptions).I am trying to stay away from the lure of 4x5 or even larger. I tell myself I would need loads of stuff, a new developing tank or at least holders, this and that. At most, at most some 6x17 solution, maybe at some point. But hum, I could get a back for 4x5.... christ!
Long story short, digital is merciless and unforgiving of misalignments that don't bother 4x5 film at at all.
There are lots of technical camera outfits made for digital that give you the movements of a 4x5 camera. I use an Arca-Swiss F-Universalis as my "work truck" technical camera with a GFX 100S. The camera in the picture is a much lighter, more compact technical camera I just built (my "fun car" camera). Other options are the Cambo Actus G (for GFX) and the Arca-Swiss Pico. Swebo makes a rig too, but the one I tried didn't cut it for me. And then there are the rigid technical cameras that take medium format backs. Lots of options!
Thank you!
John Crowe
Veteran Member
Four years ago I bought the Kipon Mamiya 645 to Canon EF Shift adapter to specifically buy the Mamiya 645 50mm f4 Shift lens. I use it on the 5DSR to shift and stitch medium format sized images. I have been shifting/stitching with the Canon 17 TS-E for over ten years. I found an Arsat 6x6 30mm f3.5 Fisheye for next to nothing and I use it more often than the 50mm. I use it for landscapes, not architecture. I am an ultrawide fanatic though.
I was blown away when I realized how sharp these medium format lenses are in the centre of my full frame image. Once shifted the edges and corners do fall off significantly. A fully shifted/stitched image still works well for landscapes despite the very soft edges as long as the central subject is predominate. The 50mm once shifted/stitched in it's most acceptable format would deliver a medium wide view om fullframe, or medium format.
I have considered the Mamiya 645 35mm N and will likely eventually get one. I believe it will be more useful than the 50mm Shift. The 35mm "N" version is supposed to be a significant improvement over the original. You could try it before having to buy another adapter.
I was blown away when I realized how sharp these medium format lenses are in the centre of my full frame image. Once shifted the edges and corners do fall off significantly. A fully shifted/stitched image still works well for landscapes despite the very soft edges as long as the central subject is predominate. The 50mm once shifted/stitched in it's most acceptable format would deliver a medium wide view om fullframe, or medium format.
I have considered the Mamiya 645 35mm N and will likely eventually get one. I believe it will be more useful than the 50mm Shift. The 35mm "N" version is supposed to be a significant improvement over the original. You could try it before having to buy another adapter.
To spare you some disappointment, I have had the N version and it was far from what the equivalent Pentax lens delivers, notably towards the corners. Maybe it was a sample issue?
The improvement probably came with the Mamiya Phase One 35MM F3.5 D, which unfortunately has an electronic diaphragm.
Rob de Loe
Veteran Member
It could be sample variation... but I've heard the conclusion you offer many times from people who have both versions of the Mamiya and one or more copies of the Pentax to compare.
Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
Thank you guys for input and a chat on this subject.
Sick of pondering this anymore I simply ordered a near mint copy of the Pentax 35 and the Kipon shift-adapter. Not the cheapest solution, but there might be some other Pentax glass in my future as well
Looking forward to try out this combo and hope my WA worries are no more
Sick of pondering this anymore I simply ordered a near mint copy of the Pentax 35 and the Kipon shift-adapter. Not the cheapest solution, but there might be some other Pentax glass in my future as well
Looking forward to try out this combo and hope my WA worries are no more
Great move, congrats. Starting with this, there are many fine lenses that can extend your possibilities, most for little money, like the 45-85mm, 75mm, 135mm, 120mm of course.Thank you guys for input and a chat on this subject.
Sick of pondering this anymore I simply ordered a near mint copy of the Pentax 35 and the Kipon shift-adapter. Not the cheapest solution, but there might be some other Pentax glass in my future as well
Looking forward to try out this combo and hope my WA worries are no more
…And with the addition of a 6x7 to 645 adapter, there is a wealth of great Pentax 67 lenses.
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Rob de Loe
Veteran Member
Sometimes that's what you need to do: just try it! Enjoy.Thank you guys for input and a chat on this subject.
Sick of pondering this anymore I simply ordered a near mint copy of the Pentax 35 and the Kipon shift-adapter. Not the cheapest solution, but there might be some other Pentax glass in my future as well
Looking forward to try out this combo and hope my WA worries are no more
Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
Don't tempt me, I have for years heard so much about the 67 105/2.4Great move, congrats. Starting with this, there are many fine lenses that can extend your possibilities, most for little money, like the 45-85mm, 75mm, 135mm, 120mm of course.Thank you guys for input and a chat on this subject.
Sick of pondering this anymore I simply ordered a near mint copy of the Pentax 35 and the Kipon shift-adapter. Not the cheapest solution, but there might be some other Pentax glass in my future as well
Looking forward to try out this combo and hope my WA worries are no more
…And with the addition of a 6x7 to 645 adapter, there is a wealth of great Pentax 67 lenses.
John Crowe
Veteran Member
Let us know how you make out.
Stumblingfalk
Senior Member
What times we live in, three days from Japan to Norway thanks to DHL (FeEx would be a nightmarish dance of "out for delivery" - "delivery postphoned" here for probably a week).
Received a near mint copy, only sign of it having been used is slight evidence of a filter having been mounted at some point. Clean lens.
Lovely build quality like all these old 645 lenses I've handled. I appreciate the somewhat decent close focus of it as well, wasn't aware it could get that close.
Ran out to the nearby park to grab some test shots before it gets to dark and stormy. Already it was gloomy (heavy weather rolling in). Will need to test it more thoroughly in real use situations to get a proper feel for it, but it seems to be a nice lens. Sharp, crisp and well-controlled over 95% of the frame. The 5% and only problem so far is the bottom left corner that is a bit smeary in some circumstances that cannot be attibuted to DOF or wind. Gut feel is that it is caused the very slight play in the shift adapter.
I must say that to my eye here is an solid amount of detail and quality in these less than inspiring test shots. This lens is clearly superior to the Mamiya 45/2.8 even if it is not perfect. There is potential in it even with the possible corner issue.
JPGs out of C1 after basic exposure adjustments and pulling the shadows and highlights, +9 contrast, +10 Clarity/Structure. Default sharpening.
Does this look what one could expect from this lens in your experience?
F/8, focus on the nearest bench.
View attachment 2785dc4308704105b6f0f54b870b1b1b.jpg
F/5.6 focus on the hedge. Lower left side is soft, a phenomenon I observed in many of the test shots. In this example since I was so carefully lined up and the shutter speed at 1/160th and with the distance to the hedge, any minor askewness on my part should be hidden by DOF.
View attachment 31e0af1e545045a1b74010ab681053ab.jpg
F/8 focus on the tombstone.
View attachment 6e078b33e49f43ed90d1cad6693de6c8.jpg
F/8 set to hyperfocal as per lens markings. Shiftet up maybe 7mm. Not unsurprising infity does not reach perfect focus, but otherwise good near to far.
View attachment 44fad8b5d7804c9ab909fe5455baf377.jpg
Received a near mint copy, only sign of it having been used is slight evidence of a filter having been mounted at some point. Clean lens.
Lovely build quality like all these old 645 lenses I've handled. I appreciate the somewhat decent close focus of it as well, wasn't aware it could get that close.
Ran out to the nearby park to grab some test shots before it gets to dark and stormy. Already it was gloomy (heavy weather rolling in). Will need to test it more thoroughly in real use situations to get a proper feel for it, but it seems to be a nice lens. Sharp, crisp and well-controlled over 95% of the frame. The 5% and only problem so far is the bottom left corner that is a bit smeary in some circumstances that cannot be attibuted to DOF or wind. Gut feel is that it is caused the very slight play in the shift adapter.
I must say that to my eye here is an solid amount of detail and quality in these less than inspiring test shots. This lens is clearly superior to the Mamiya 45/2.8 even if it is not perfect. There is potential in it even with the possible corner issue.
JPGs out of C1 after basic exposure adjustments and pulling the shadows and highlights, +9 contrast, +10 Clarity/Structure. Default sharpening.
Does this look what one could expect from this lens in your experience?
F/8, focus on the nearest bench.
View attachment 2785dc4308704105b6f0f54b870b1b1b.jpg
F/5.6 focus on the hedge. Lower left side is soft, a phenomenon I observed in many of the test shots. In this example since I was so carefully lined up and the shutter speed at 1/160th and with the distance to the hedge, any minor askewness on my part should be hidden by DOF.
View attachment 31e0af1e545045a1b74010ab681053ab.jpg
F/8 focus on the tombstone.
View attachment 6e078b33e49f43ed90d1cad6693de6c8.jpg
F/8 set to hyperfocal as per lens markings. Shiftet up maybe 7mm. Not unsurprising infity does not reach perfect focus, but otherwise good near to far.
View attachment 44fad8b5d7804c9ab909fe5455baf377.jpg
Well done! Yes, this seems relevant. You may gain a touch of sharpness by using a tripod, a two seconds delay and the E. Shutter. And you can even close it to f11 if you need more DOF. I assume that you have the A version of that lens. It has a touch of purple fringing that can be easily corrected.
Now if you want to extend your range, the FA 45-85mm (or the A 45-85mm according to some) is even better and more practical. I have the FA and it is a very sharp lens.
Regarding your previous post, the 105mm f2.4 for 67 is only special wide open for certain type of photography, mostly portrait, and you would need a square image shift adapter such as the Fotodiox Vertex to make the most of it in my experience (65x65mm image). For portraits, it is not easy to manage the 4 shots. I now have the GF 55mm 1.7 which surpasses it with only one shot, but the Sigma 50mm 1.4 Art or the Tamron SP 45mm 1.8 are affordable variants if you don't need a shift lens. Just suggesting.
Now if you want to extend your range, the FA 45-85mm (or the A 45-85mm according to some) is even better and more practical. I have the FA and it is a very sharp lens.
Regarding your previous post, the 105mm f2.4 for 67 is only special wide open for certain type of photography, mostly portrait, and you would need a square image shift adapter such as the Fotodiox Vertex to make the most of it in my experience (65x65mm image). For portraits, it is not easy to manage the 4 shots. I now have the GF 55mm 1.7 which surpasses it with only one shot, but the Sigma 50mm 1.4 Art or the Tamron SP 45mm 1.8 are affordable variants if you don't need a shift lens. Just suggesting.
Rob de Loe
Veteran Member
Looking good. You seem to have received a good copy.
Often the problems people see in adapted lenses, like your bad corner, are due to the adapter. A difference of 20 microns in thickness is enough to cause issues.
When I used that lens, it was mostly at f/8 to f/11, where depth of field often masked issues like that.
When you start shifting this lens, you're going to encounter the moustache distortion. This is a worst case scenario that illustrates the distortion form. It's 15mm of shift in the four directions, and then stitched together. That's considerably more than the lens' image circle was designed for (9mm fits within the image circle that covers 645). However, this much shift nicely shows the moustache form.
SMC Pentax-A 645 35/3.5 with 15mm shift in all four directions.
This is normal for this kind of lens by the way. You need a symmetrical design if you want a distortion-free wide angle. And that kind of wide angle lens requires a technical camera.
Often the problems people see in adapted lenses, like your bad corner, are due to the adapter. A difference of 20 microns in thickness is enough to cause issues.
When I used that lens, it was mostly at f/8 to f/11, where depth of field often masked issues like that.
When you start shifting this lens, you're going to encounter the moustache distortion. This is a worst case scenario that illustrates the distortion form. It's 15mm of shift in the four directions, and then stitched together. That's considerably more than the lens' image circle was designed for (9mm fits within the image circle that covers 645). However, this much shift nicely shows the moustache form.
SMC Pentax-A 645 35/3.5 with 15mm shift in all four directions.
This is normal for this kind of lens by the way. You need a symmetrical design if you want a distortion-free wide angle. And that kind of wide angle lens requires a technical camera.
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