hrx9331
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That's good to hear, I hope it protrudes a bit to actually give something to grab onto.
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A modern GM5 or PEN-F?
- Thread starter Mitchell Clark
- Start date
Sam Bennett
Veteran Member
I'm not sure why you'd say that, since my participation in this thread clearly indicates otherwise. I've owned the GF1, GF2, GM1, E-PL1 and PEN-F bodies. I like this type of body and would love to have my OM-3 replaced by something like this, but it has to be the "right" fit for me. So, I feel my perspective here is valuable. TBH, I'd appreciate it if you'd simply ignore my posts instead of questioning my participation in threads.
I get that there's some people out there who really love them, and I do think there's a market for this kind of camera. Again, the question here is - given today's technology and expectations, what can and should this look like?
I think at the time, it was largely bad timing. Around that time you had...
- Smartphones improving in image quality by leaps and bounds - this was mostly the death knell for this kind of camera
- ILCs introducing IBIS in relatively low-cost bodies
- Phase Detect AF in relatively low-cost bodies
The reality is that people's expectations around AF performance and stabilization has changed, fundamentally since 2014. Some people may be fine with a very rudimentary AF system and no IBIS - but buying a used GM5 is still cheaper than this camera will be. This camera has to offer the things people liked about those cameras while addressing the things people do not like about those cameras. That's the challenge here.
Here's the compromises I personally would make to balance size/cost for this (note that a lot of this is largely what they've already stated they're going to do).
- Base it off the 20MP stacked sensor in the OM-1 Mark II/OM-3
- Electronic shutter only (assuming #1 is true)
- Phase Detect AF with Subject Detection equaling what is in the OM-3
- Non-articulating LCD screen
- Same EVF as the OM-3
- No weather sealing
- No attempt at active cooling
- 128GB built-in memory
- Two-wheel control over settings to make it easy to use Shutter or Aperture priority - A/S on one dial, AE Comp on the other
baxters
Veteran Member
I'd be happy with a modern GM5. Doesn't need to be waterproof or have big camera features like PDF and all the exposure/stacking tricks of an OM. Ability for a smartphone to import its images. 16MP sensor.
Offered at a lower price, this M43 owner would snap it up as a low key camera to keep in pocket or bag.
Offered at a lower price, this M43 owner would snap it up as a low key camera to keep in pocket or bag.
dbateman
Veteran Member
The top may have an ISO dial and an exposure compensation dial. If they switched out the exposure compensation dial to a shutter speed dial and be fully compliant with the Panasonic 15mm and 42.5 mm lenses with aperture control, than I would buy it.
There aren't any options in m43rds with a ISO dial and shutter speed dial on camera. Olympus teased a concept camera that would have been perfect if manufactured. But never came to light.
I already own the 15mm and 42.5 mm lenses.
As I said in the comments about your original story, If Panasonic won't make it, it is good that someone else does. I do want an EVF, but am not concerned about IBIS.
$2000K US. is $3000K CAN, so I am not sure I could afford it to complement or upgrade my GM5 - already have a G100D.
Hope they go for it!
F.
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"We shoot the things that move us in ways that will move others." David duChemin
"What's the use of having a great depth of field if there is not an adequate depth of feeling?" - W. Eugene Smith
$2000K US. is $3000K CAN, so I am not sure I could afford it to complement or upgrade my GM5 - already have a G100D.
Hope they go for it!
F.
--
"We shoot the things that move us in ways that will move others." David duChemin
"What's the use of having a great depth of field if there is not an adequate depth of feeling?" - W. Eugene Smith
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Not entirely unreasonable.The same complaints from gear heads will resurface.
- Too expensive
- Low resolution
- Missing critical features
- Terrible ergonomics
- Lack of earth shattering FW updates
- No 4K120 ProRes RAW
- EVF not up to par
- Jumpy or missing joystick
If an OM-3 is readily available at that price, or an X-T50 is available for lower price, buyers have choices.
For the 2K they can spend, they need to decide whether they want the 'cigarette pack' sized new camera with less features, or bigger OM-3 with latest features, I know I won't be buying all two or three in that situation. I have to pick one.
Nothing wrong with choosing what works for them. They are all capable cameras. The question is what it means for the business. If it has the latest features and offers an experience that connects with the users, it could be a success at $2K. We have seen that with OM-3.
The advantage this camera has is that a large lens eco system already exists. It does not need to come up with new lenses like the RF and Z mounts had to do (or the Samsung NX a decade ago).
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See my profile (About me) for gear and my posting policy. My profile picture is of the first film camera I used in the early 80s, photo credit the internet.
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Elemental Photography
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My second m4/3 camera was a GF2, and I still have it kicking around as my backup full spectrum camera. I've also owned the GX1 in the past, though I eventually traded it in towards other gear. My biggest complain with both was the lack of EVF (well, that and the external EVF I bought for the GF2 wasn't compatible with the GX1). When I'm doing long, dedicated sessions I do like my GH5's handling but it is quite bulky in comparison for travel or every day carry use. So, a small camera with an EVF is very much appealing to me.
As with a lot of folks, my main concern does come down to price. I'm willing to pay a small premium for a more compact body. If the end result does come in at a US$2000 price point, that would be a stretch for me personally. The E-M5 / OM-5 series of cameras are already pretty compact, have an EVF, and the OM-5II currently sells for CAN$1700 (approximately US$1200 at current exchange rates). There would have to be a lot of compelling advantages for me to pay an extra US$800 over the OM-5II cost.
Either way, even if winds up not being a camera for me, I hope you find success in your efforts!
As with a lot of folks, my main concern does come down to price. I'm willing to pay a small premium for a more compact body. If the end result does come in at a US$2000 price point, that would be a stretch for me personally. The E-M5 / OM-5 series of cameras are already pretty compact, have an EVF, and the OM-5II currently sells for CAN$1700 (approximately US$1200 at current exchange rates). There would have to be a lot of compelling advantages for me to pay an extra US$800 over the OM-5II cost.
Either way, even if winds up not being a camera for me, I hope you find success in your efforts!
A person can dream.
Product conception, product specification, product cost analysis, product architecture, industrial design, mechanical design, electrical design, electronics design, software design, compatibility testing, performance testing, usability testing, integration testing, prototype development and iteration, supply chain management, manufacturing… to name a few.
Lots and lots of hard work.
”Making the MFT mount work” is just one product development item, and it is hard enough.
Virtually all product components must be developed from scratch, without institutional expertise leverage. The one component that is typically sourced is the sensor, typically from Sony — and then there are hundreds of things around the sensor to make use of it. Three full-time engineers would need 3 months to work on the “read out” aspect of the sensor.
Five years to product release.
By then, $2000 will likely be reasonable, and the yardstick regarding functionality will likely be moved in the context of new technologies (computational, AI, UX) and new same-class products. References to GM5 or PEN-F will likely be counter-productive.
I find the announcement rather premature.
I kindly wish “Good Luck” to the whole multidisciplinary team.
And I sincerely hope there will be a sustainable market for the new camera.
Product conception, product specification, product cost analysis, product architecture, industrial design, mechanical design, electrical design, electronics design, software design, compatibility testing, performance testing, usability testing, integration testing, prototype development and iteration, supply chain management, manufacturing… to name a few.
Lots and lots of hard work.
”Making the MFT mount work” is just one product development item, and it is hard enough.
Virtually all product components must be developed from scratch, without institutional expertise leverage. The one component that is typically sourced is the sensor, typically from Sony — and then there are hundreds of things around the sensor to make use of it. Three full-time engineers would need 3 months to work on the “read out” aspect of the sensor.
Five years to product release.
By then, $2000 will likely be reasonable, and the yardstick regarding functionality will likely be moved in the context of new technologies (computational, AI, UX) and new same-class products. References to GM5 or PEN-F will likely be counter-productive.
I find the announcement rather premature.
I kindly wish “Good Luck” to the whole multidisciplinary team.
And I sincerely hope there will be a sustainable market for the new camera.
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pipituni
Leading Member
respectfully, these cameras are like chalk and cheese, so i'd start by being more focussed on who your target users are what they need
something like the GM5 will be smaller and may have to sacrifice features, whereas something the size of the PenF/OM5 will be expected to be full featured, especially at that price point
i've always said that cameras need to be desirable to be successful. these days cameras that can't focus quickly and accurately on the intended subject are not desirable... why? because there are tons of alternatives that can, many at very reasonable prices
PDAF and subject detect, including human are a must then
IBIS is also a key feature these days, as we're all used to being able to take pictures in low light without having to worry about camera shake. it's also indispensable for video
some have said fixed screen, but i would argue that an every day carry camera should have a front facing screen of some kind - flip up or down is my preference over FAS
i bought 2 cameras similar in size to the PenF recently, the S9 and XE5
the S9 has been a revelation. not just fantastic video but great for photos too. subject detect, IBIS that rivals m43 stability, FF quality and all in a compact body
as much as i wanted to love the XE5, something about the ergonomics just wasn't for me. the position of the dials, the sharp edges of the body... and then the compact prime kit lens was noisy when focussing...
for me then function trumps form now
i was hoping the XE5 would replace both my OM5 and S9 but it replaces neither, so reluctantly i returned it. my very short adventure in APSC land is over
i'm still very much interested in a compact premium m43 body though. something around the EP7 size is perfect for me because it's about as compact as we can expect but still has IBIS and a front facing screen. it would also need PDAF, though of course doesn't need the big performance (fps) of the flagships
weather sealing would be a huge plus and would be an important USP if i'm not mistaken?
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G1Houston
Veteran Member
PEN-F is beautiful but it failed. This led to the wrong conclusion that no one wanted to buy a compact body camera. However the key problem of PEN-F was its sub-bar AF which was immediately discovered by DpReview. The added dial to switch photo modes was not attractive enough to offset this problem at the price point of that camera.
It's a discussion forum we don't have tp agree with one another. I still have all my GM1 and GM5 camera bodies and a few G100 bodies that seem to be the closest camera that Panasonic has chosen to offer recently to the GM5 type. It resolves some of the more serious complaints and good suggestions made for the GM5.
But it is far larger of course. But it has a very good evf - better on the "D" version. Also the 20mp sensor - but without any special enhancements. I don't see a side hinged lcd as "an improvement" - but that is just my personal opinion. Nor do I need the G100/D video facilities. But it is a not-bad simple and effective camera for stills capture purposes.
It would not come anywhere near specification that you are interested in - but it is cheap enough and affordable. A proposed US$2,000 price tag already has many warned off. But to build such a camera to a price that might sell is to limit its capabilities to a level that nobody would want it. On that we are agreed. It needs to be a sort of Goldilocks camera in capabilities.
We obviously don't agree on the general thrust of how this camera might be designed - but that's life and we all have our own perspectives.
But it is far larger of course. But it has a very good evf - better on the "D" version. Also the 20mp sensor - but without any special enhancements. I don't see a side hinged lcd as "an improvement" - but that is just my personal opinion. Nor do I need the G100/D video facilities. But it is a not-bad simple and effective camera for stills capture purposes.
It would not come anywhere near specification that you are interested in - but it is cheap enough and affordable. A proposed US$2,000 price tag already has many warned off. But to build such a camera to a price that might sell is to limit its capabilities to a level that nobody would want it. On that we are agreed. It needs to be a sort of Goldilocks camera in capabilities.
We obviously don't agree on the general thrust of how this camera might be designed - but that's life and we all have our own perspectives.
I was interested despite all that (and the silly retro dial out front). But at the end of the proverbial day i have never been a fan of the side hinged lcd - especially with a RF-Style camera body. That was the final kiss of death as far as I was concerned.
Very well put - furthermore the sketch was for a GM5 replacement but somehow it has become convoluted into an alternative Pen-F replacement as well, These are two very different camera concepts and to try and satisfy both with one model it is almost dead in the water with a camera body that satisfies neither camp.
For the moment the GM5 update gets my vote and I was never enthusiastic enough for a Pen-F to be interested in an updated version. Of course if it was perfection in a classy body with a tilt lcd I would consider it simply on its merits as just another camera perhaps worth purchasing.
There is a certain amount of the usual partisanship over whether this camera might resemble one of the Olympus cameras of yore or more closely follow the GM5 concept as marketed by Panasonic. For the moment the GM5 update (type) surely holds the floor?
The proposed price is an issue and it will need to be enough to make it worth while to be made and enough to make sure that the proposed camera is not built down to a price that also makes it unsaleable. One thing is for sure - a high price will probably end up in small volume bespoke assembly without creating more stock than could be readily sold at any time. Something like how Sigma seems to conducts its camera business and lessens risk of unsold stock. To make it a cheap everyman's camera body would indicate high volume production with big capital investment and the heightened risk of unsold stock.
cba_melbourne
Veteran Member
No way. That GM1/5 shutter has been installed in many many Panasonic cameras since. And is still today installed in the G100. For Panasonic, that single curtain miniature shutter has paid for it's R&D many times over. Any Panasonic body with the 1/500s speed limit and and the 1/60s flash sync limit, has THAT very GM shutter inside. Panasonic is NOT going to give away that precious shutter to the competition anytime soon.
Consider that anything bare a fixed screen, will necessarilay add at least 3-5mm to the thickness of any body. The GM cameras are only 30mm thick lens flange to back. 5 more mm would mean 17% thicker.
But leica does well with their luxury "monochrom" bodies
Either that, or better supply a grip as standard, but easily removable (like with a pushbutton lock), not glued-on like the Franiec was.
Removable, because some days you go out with larger/heavier lenses and would want a grip, some other days you go out with the smallest lightest pancake lenses for pocketability and don't want nor need a grip.
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Ergo607
Veteran Member
IMHO features are not that important, because there will always be something to complain about and also because after a while even the most feature packed camera become obsolete.
Price is a consideration of course.
However: make the ergonomics better than perfect. After all is said and done, the GM5 is far from perfect. I think it would be good to look at Pentax (the Q had almost perfect ergonomics.)
StevoPhilo
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The amount of people who dismiss a camera because X or Y feature isn't included is insane. I mean people are actually upset it won't do video.
The reality is that this needs to be better than a GM5/Pen-F/GX9, but makes a few sacrifices from the like's of the OM-3- G9ii etc.
I'd buy it at the $1500 price range, but you have to consider what the competition may be like in the next 2-3 years that it takes to develop this camera.
Personally I think most folks would dismiss this if there is a lack of IBIS, PDAF, Tilt screen.
I'd be okay with losing one of those features.
TL;DR Make it better than a ep-7 and slap an evf on it.
The reality is that this needs to be better than a GM5/Pen-F/GX9, but makes a few sacrifices from the like's of the OM-3- G9ii etc.
I'd buy it at the $1500 price range, but you have to consider what the competition may be like in the next 2-3 years that it takes to develop this camera.
Personally I think most folks would dismiss this if there is a lack of IBIS, PDAF, Tilt screen.
I'd be okay with losing one of those features.
TL;DR Make it better than a ep-7 and slap an evf on it.
loneliestsounds
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Bonjour! So nice of you to drop by. Maybe gather current users of the system for feedback instead of casting the net too wide or trying to lure users from other formats.
My take is people who continued or stayed with micro four thirds are users who have already experienced multiple formats but have decided they prefer sticking with micro four thirds for various reasons and what they look forward to in the next iteration of capture tools.
Which kinds of pocket?
Smartphones fit in pants pockets, even jeans back pockets. Oh yeah, iPhone 17 Air.
Fujifilm X half, Sony RX100, Panasonic ZS100, Olympus TG-6… should fit in jacket pockets.
Pansonic GX85 + 20mm, Fujifilm X-E5 + 23/28mm… should clumsily fit in jacket pockets.
We are talking about “pancake” prime lenses here.
All interchangeable-lens cameras, no matter how slim and compact, do not stand a chance (relative to “fit in your pocket” advatange) when the question of lenses is left open.
MFT lenses are comparatively smaller, but their dimensions are far from “tiny”.
A slim and compact ILC with a body cap on the lens mount is useless.
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