Returning to Photography - Nikon AF Quality Control?

Hi all,

I'm returning to photography after taking a hiatus.

My first love is Nikon, starting with an F3, then a D90, and D300s.

More recently I had a Canon 40D and the Fuji X100 and X100V.

The reason I left Nikon was because I had lots of issues with AF Quality Control on my D90. The autofocus was poorly calibrated and when I took it to Nikon for service, they tried to fix it twice and then told me it was unfixable and not covered under warranty.

In any case, it was a bad experience.

Can anyone speak to the degree of AF quality control in the Z cameras and lenses?

I'm leaning heavily towards the z5ii or z6iii.

Thanks!

Jlow34 said:

Hi all,

I'm returning to photography after taking a hiatus.

My first love is Nikon, starting with an F3, then a D90, and D300s.

More recently I had a Canon 40D and the Fuji X100 and X100V.

The reason I left Nikon was because I had lots of issues with AF Quality Control on my D90. The autofocus was poorly calibrated and when I took it to Nikon for service, they tried to fix it twice and then told me it was unfixable and not covered under warranty.

In any case, it was a bad experience.

Can anyone speak to the degree of AF quality control in the Z cameras and lenses?

I'm leaning heavily towards the z5ii or z6iii.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

The AF difference between DSLRs (especially the older ones) and the new Z cameras (Z50II, Z5II, Z6III, Z8, Z9) are night and day. You will be absolutely amazed.

I moved from a D750 and D500 to the Z8, and my mind was blown. You'll have a lot of fun shooting.

The Z lenses are also really good, much better than their DSLR counterparts,... and yet with the FTZ adapter, you can use all your older DLSR lenses with better accuracy than ever before. No more need to mess with AF fine tune, especially with Z lenses.

--
http://www.dreamsourcestudio.com
@TheSoaringSprite

This camera features the baseline for the Expeed 7 Z cameras. The next step up is the Z6 III and the reason it's a stop up is due to the faster scan time of the semi stacked sensor. The top tier is currently the Z9 and Z8 cameras and that is due to the scan speed of the fully stacked sensors.

Note in comparison to the older Expeed 6 cameras it is a night and day difference. So an answer to your question has two very different flavors. If you want to know the answer for the latest AF you have the answer in your Z5II. That is the AF is leaps and bounds better than in your D90.

I will also note that you had a bad sample of the D90 or a problem lens. In your shoes I would have been asking for a replacement, not a repair. BTW I still have my D70 and it focuses perfectly. Wanted to see what could be done using modern upsizing software and noise reduction reduction so I put my 105mm f2.8 Micro Nikkor on the D70 and snapped a few pics of a flower growing in the grass. Below is that pic and you can see the focus is fine on that "ancient" old D70.


Full image


200% peep

With the Viltrox converter you can use any Sony E mount lens that catches your interest. One problem with doing this is that the Lens Profile information doesn't speak the same language as the Nikon camera. In some lenses this profile will contain corrections for focusing while zooming. As a result you may see front or back focus issues with Zoom lenses and it will specific to the model of the lens. Been there done that.

I'm going to assume when you speak of calibration that you either had a) specific AF fine tune issues with lenses or b) system wide issues with AF accuracy on your body.

With the mirrorless cameras, one advantage is that AF is being done on the sensor, instead of via a secondary AF "system". This allows for the AF to be more precise since there isn't a chance of the secondary AF system being out of alignment/calibration with what the image sensor is getting. So gone are the days of AF fine tune.

What has taken some time with the Nikon Z bodies is the AF consistency/accuracy under some (but not all) conditions. You're better off (by FAR) with the latest - the Z5-II, Z6-III, or Z8, with the Z8 being the best of the bunch, because the tech has improved so the AF system is able to do a lot better with subject recognition and in a lot of different modes.

This all being said, there is definitely a learning curve with the mirrorless AF; so you have to be willing to take some time to learn and explore.

But with the latest bodies, to answer your question as best as I understand it, yes, the AF is better.

When you say "Nikon AF Quality control" i assume your referring to AF tine tuning? Mirrorless Cameras generally don't need Calibration as focusing is done directly on the sensor. I own A D500 and Z6, AF accuracy for static subjects is much better with the Z6.

Z6III will blow your mind

Just make sure you learn it. It takes a bit of effort.

Is the question more along the lines of QC from one body to another consistent

some folks think QC in a lens varies between individual copies of the same lens. one copy might be fine and the next copy of the same lens have alignment issues due to poor QC at manufacture

Is the AF good across all samples of Z8 bodies or does it vary between individual bodies of the same Z8?

At least I think that’s what the original question is but I could be wrong of course

Generally speaking, "quality control" is not an issue on modern mirrorless cameras from Nikon or anybody else. Because unlike SLRs, autofocus is on the imaging sensor instead of on a separate AF system.

Speaking a bit less generally, there are differences between the big camera makers in the implementation of subject acquisition and tracking. Some brands have implemented it more intuitively and reliably than others.

But I do not consider that to be a "quality control" issue (it is more of a design issue), and I have no doubt that excellent results can be obtained by any enthusiast who is willing to invest the time to learn to use their camera.

Jlow34 said:

Hi all,

I'm returning to photography after taking a hiatus.

My first love is Nikon, starting with an F3, then a D90, and D300s.

More recently I had a Canon 40D and the Fuji X100 and X100V.

The reason I left Nikon was because I had lots of issues with AF Quality Control on my D90. The autofocus was poorly calibrated and when I took it to Nikon for service, they tried to fix it twice and then told me it was unfixable and not covered under warranty.

In any case, it was a bad experience.

Can anyone speak to the degree of AF quality control in the Z cameras and lenses?

I'm leaning heavily towards the z5ii or z6iii.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

As mentioned by others, Mirrorless AF is very different animal than DSLR AF. It is extremely powerful, will deliver far better accuracy than DSLR AF under optimum conditions, and integrates qualitative tracking AF (that is, subject feature recognition that can distinguish many animals including humans in a hierarchy of features - body, face, eye - as well as planes and trains) as well as powerful 3D-tracking (nonqualitative subject tracking) that works for fast moving subjects, something your D90 was never able to do.
However, you must set aside everything you learned with your Nikon DSLRs and go back to Autofocus school. It's not hard once you get into the learning process, but there are a lot of similarly-named modes and options that don't quite work the same way. Assuming that they do has led many to a great deal of frustration.
Don't buy anything but an Expeed 7 generation body. The Z5ii and Z6iii are great Expeed 7 bodies, of which the Z6iii is better for AF on fast moving subjects.
Buy yourself a good 3rd party manual for the camera of your choice - Hogan or otherwise - and settle in for a few months of retraining your muscle memory.

Jlow34 said:

Hi all,

I'm returning to photography after taking a hiatus.

My first love is Nikon, starting with an F3, then a D90, and D300s.

More recently I had a Canon 40D and the Fuji X100 and X100V.

The reason I left Nikon was because I had lots of issues with AF Quality Control on my D90. The autofocus was poorly calibrated and when I took it to Nikon for service, they tried to fix it twice and then told me it was unfixable and not covered under warranty.

In any case, it was a bad experience.

Click to expand...

With you returning to photography, and your experience was DSLRs, there is major difference between mirror-less and mirrored cameras involving AF; you may not be aware of.

AF on Z (mirror-less) cameras require Green light for focusing. Whereas DSLR (mirror) used IR light (barely visible Red light to human eye). All of Nikon's Speedlights use Red (IR) booster lights (or AF assist lights). Thus, if you try to take a flash picture with Speedlight in low-light to no-light situations, Nikon Z camera's do not benefit from Speedlights IR booster light. There may be a workaround, but Speedlight's Red (IR) booster light isn't activated by Z cameras; being IR light is useless for Z AF.

When there is insufficient natural (or available) light, Z camera's are reliant on camera's built-in Green focus assist light. Compounding problem is Green focus assist light on Z bodies is easy to block with your hand, with a fat lens, or large hood on a lens. My own opinion is Green light is weak, compared to IR lights on flashes.

Unlike IR (Red) light, the Green focus assist light is seen by human eye, and to some subjects (people) Green light is annoying. Green light also calls attention to you photographer, not stealthy at all.

The D90 was a great consumer DSLR. It was my primary camera from 2010 to 2013. The D300 was a fantastic professional DSLR. It set the standard for professional APS-C sports and action cameras. Both were reviewed in-depth by DPR and awarded "Highly Recommended" status.

Today's cameras have better autofocus performance. It's more complex with far more customization to address the needs of different scenarios but, if configured and used properly, substantially better. As has always been the case, the performance you get depends add much on you as the camera.

Bill Ferris said:

The D90 was a great consumer DSLR. It was my primary camera from 2010 to 2013. The D300 was a fantastic professional DSLR. It set the standard for professional APS-C sports and action cameras. Both were reviewed in-depth by DPR and awarded "Highly Recommended" status.

Today's cameras have better autofocus performance. It's more complex with far more customization to address the needs of different scenarios but, if configured and used properly, substantially better. As has always been the case, the performance you get depends add much on you as the camera.

Click to expand...

True, I shot the D90 and D300 and D300S for several years as well as the D810. Loved those bodies. But the D4S, D5, D500 and D850 did have better autofocus. The D500 was my favorite camera for a long time, until early this year. But now I have to say the Z6iii is my favorite body, with the Zf closely following. Autofocus is phenomenal on all Z EXPEED 7 bodies. So much so that I do not miss using DSLRs at all. I kept the D4S. It has almost 200,000 clicks on it, so won't get much if I sell it. My D810 is now an IR conversion body as is my old trusty D90. I liked the D7100 a lot, but when I stopped using it I had it UV converted -- man, UV is very tough to shoot and post-process into anything useable.

The Z bodies, even with an FTZii and F-mount glass, are much better at autofocus than any of my DSLRs were.

Autofocus is pretty dang good these days - mostly gone are the days of AF fine tuning. Modern mirrorless sensors have many more focus points, and all are located on the same plane as the imaging pixels.

Occasionally minor improvements can still be had with AF fine tune, only because not every lens responds to AF input the same way. If a lens is commanded to move focus 40 units but actually only moves focus 38 units, that can be a source of correctable error when using PDAF. (Pin point AF uses contrast-detect only and so isn't affected). Secondly, AF consistency still varies between lenses and copies of lenses. Testing through Reikan's FoCal illuminates this.

More broadly speaking, I think quality control in most industries is a bit lacking these days. No camera or lens maker is exempt. What makes a good customer experience is what happens when things go wrong - in my opinion Nikon is not high on the list there. Gotta say Nikon still feels a bit stodgy, a bit anti-consumer, and not quite reaching a high bar yet.

Right-to-repair is law in a growing number of jurisdictions, and has been for some time. Nikon broadly fails to comply with its legal obligations in this area, making only a limited number of parts sometimes available, with fairly limited and sparse documentation. Nikon support was unable to provide any parts that were not listed on Nikon's parts website either. Canon will generally provide parts as needed on request to their support.

Now in regards to the cameras and lenses, I'd say the lenses are very good, and the bodies are average, in terms of QC, at least at the z6 level. This year in particular I've heard of (and experienced) a number of problems around poor QC with the bodies. Take that anecdote for what it's worth.

I have had three Nikon Z bodies and have owned 7 Z lenses. Zero issues …

thayes15 said:

Is the question more along the lines of QC from one body to another consistent

some folks think QC in a lens varies between individual copies of the same lens. one copy might be fine and the next copy of the same lens have alignment issues due to poor QC at manufacture

Is the AF good across all samples of Z8 bodies or does it vary between individual bodies of the same Z8?

At least I think that’s what the original question is but I could be wrong of course

Click to expand...

Exactly, I'm asking about consistency between bodies.

Thanks for the careful clarification.

Jlow34 said:

thayes15 said:

Is the question more along the lines of QC from one body to another consistent

some folks think QC in a lens varies between individual copies of the same lens. one copy might be fine and the next copy of the same lens have alignment issues due to poor QC at manufacture

Is the AF good across all samples of Z8 bodies or does it vary between individual bodies of the same Z8?

At least I think that’s what the original question is but I could be wrong of course

Click to expand...

Exactly, I'm asking about consistency between bodies.

Thanks for the careful clarification.

Click to expand...

Be careful about applying your DSLR experience to mirrorless bodies. DSLRs are highly mechanical objects requiring careful calibration and alignment of parallel optical paths for specified performance. Mirrorless cameras' performance is baked in to the sensor and the processing electronics. There are basic alignments required, such as parallelism of the sensor sled and mount, and for both types of camera the lens alignment is a big part of the performance equation - as it's the major remaining complex physical component in the optical chain. But in general there's an order of magnitude less alignment and calibration that can go wrong.

Mirrorless cameras have in the past exhibited "lack of confidence" in certain situations that DSLRs didn't - such as low contrast subject tracking with a high contrast background or in occluding environments, such as subjects moving in tall grass. There's some fundamental physical reasons for this, but manufacturers have been ultra-focused on overcoming them. With the current crop of cameras, they have. But as I mentioned before, you have to approach operation of the camera rather differently than you may have in the DSLR era.

Personally, the only time I've had an AF problem with a mirrorless Nikon that wasn't due to the state of the mirrorless AF technology was when I tripped and dropped a camera plus mounted lens on a hard ferry deck. But no camera can be expected to escape such a situation unscathed.

As others have explained, due to how AF works on a mirrorless body vs a DSLR, consistency between bodies is EXTREMELY high.

Jlow34 said:

Hi all,

I'm returning to photography after taking a hiatus.

My first love is Nikon, starting with an F3, then a D90, and D300s.

More recently I had a Canon 40D and the Fuji X100 and X100V.

The reason I left Nikon was because I had lots of issues with AF Quality Control on my D90. The autofocus was poorly calibrated and when I took it to Nikon for service, they tried to fix it twice and then told me it was unfixable and not covered under warranty.

In any case, it was a bad experience.

Can anyone speak to the degree of AF quality control in the Z cameras and lenses?

I'm leaning heavily towards the z5ii or z6iii.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

If you're referring to AF speed/accuracy when you say "AF control" It has been improved on the Expeed 7 cameras. Either the Z5 Ii or Z6 III would be good cameras, and both inherit many of the same AF routines as the bigger cameras (the Z8 and Z9), although specific performance may vary slightly since the Z5 Ii does use a slower sensor and that can impact AF, but not by much, it's still a vast improvement over the original Z5.

I think you'd be happy with either one. FWIW, the way I see it, the Z5 Ii is good for everything although it may be a little on the slower side for action photography. The Z6 III is better for action photography (wildlife or sports) if that's what you're into. If not, the Z5 II is a good option as it's a bit cheaper, smaller, and lighter and only needs regular SD cards (the Z6 III takes one SD+1 CFExpress). But from what I've read, most people are happy with either one. The Z cameras are much different than the old Nikon DSLRs and I think you'll be both surprised and impressed with how far they've come since cameras like the D90 (the D90 was a good camera, but the Z's are worlds better partially because they are much newer and new technology all around).

--
* PLEASE NOTE: I generally unsubscribe from forums/comments after a period of time has passed, so if I do not respond, that is likely the reason. *

Jlow34 said:

Hi all,

I'm returning to photography after taking a hiatus.

My first love is Nikon, starting with an F3, then a D90, and D300s.

More recently I had a Canon 40D and the Fuji X100 and X100V.

The reason I left Nikon was because I had lots of issues with AF Quality Control on my D90.

Click to expand...

Well, you didn't really leave Nikon because you mentioned D300s and your gear list shows Z5ii. That must give you some confidence. Not all of them had QC issues, did they?

I did have one with my D7200 years ago and Nikon fixed it under warranty.

Jlow34 said:

The autofocus was poorly calibrated and when I took it to Nikon for service, they tried to fix it twice and then told me it was unfixable and not covered under warranty.

In any case, it was a bad experience.

Click to expand...

I agree. I would be mad too.

Jlow34 said:

Can anyone speak to the degree of AF quality control in the Z cameras and lenses?

Click to expand...

Many replies already. I am using 'used' Z7ii and am happy with it. No issues so far, other than user mistakes.

Jlow34 said:

I'm leaning heavily towards the z5ii or z6iii.

Click to expand...

Your gear shows Z5ii. If the decision is open, I would recommend Z6iii. I say that because I like the top LCD panel and faster sensor readout for silent shooting.

If those are not important to you, and you save some money on Z5ii, then go for it.

Jlow34 said:

Thanks!

Click to expand...

All the best.