Complete noob to tele zoom; advices for sumo tournament.

I'm using sony apsc and 85mm f1.8 (127mm), considering new lens.

I had got a seat now (9th row zone B) which i estimate to be 25-40m away: zone S and zone A about 15-20m, ring side and the ring about 10-20m. seat map: https://sumo.pia.jp/seat/fukuoka.jsp; picture of tournament venue: https://www.fukuoka-now.com/en/enjoy-sumo-yatai-hopping (3rd picture).

I hope to be able to take half body or closer shots, indoor preferably with narrow DOF. I suspect 85mm prime will be very limiting, and i need a zoom. I am unsure of what range and aperture to get. I am fine with changing lens and do not need the wider end on this zoom. I do not intend to cover wildlife and fast sports, but since the lens is so expensive, i am considering getting a full frame lens in case i upgrade but do not intend to splurge too much as it will not be used often; in future it may be used for concerts and cheerleading shots.

I had considered f/4 without focal length below 70mm as a compromise hoping to get cheaper lighter lens, but with limited choices. it seem to be dichotomised to either f6.3 or f2.8 at the tele end. Can anyone shed some light of which direction i should go?

There are so many tele zoom lens and I had listed them down for clarity grouping by weight, with some of them shortlisted but i had yet to narrow them down with more reviews.

460gm, 18-200mm, f3.5-6.3, tamron: not FF, cheap <$500

540gm, 20-200mm, f3.5-6.3, sigma

575gm, 28-200mm, f2.8-5.6, tamron: about $1k

Pro/con: affordable for infrequent use, unsure if f5.6 is ideal.

794gm, 70-200mm, f4, sony G 2023: 2k

855gm, 70-180mm, f2.8, tamron G2: 2k

1045gm, 70-200mm, f2.8 sony GM 2021: 3k

1165gm, 35-150mm, f2-2.8, tamron: >2k

Pro/con: significant investment but f2.8 more likely to give desired narrow DOF

1215gm, 28-135mm, f4, sony G: >3k

1335gm, 70-200mm, f2.8, sigma: 2k

1340gm, 50-150mm, f2, sony GM: >5k

Pro/con: I dun think i will want to spend so much on something i cant use often enough. in this category. the sigma is f2.8 about the same price but much heavier, not sure what is the advantage to trade off the weight.

I hope editing this image and posting it is fine as i cant think of better ways. I make some marks to show the approximate location of where i am sitting and the distance from the stage, so that the others can visualise the approximate distance and the focal length that I may need.

From the nearer side, it will be about the nearest row you can see or one row behind. From the opposite end, it is about the row just above the walking man. Will a 180-200mm (270-300mm on apsc) lens be at least able to take half body shots?


source: https://www.fukuoka-now.com/en/enjoy-sumo-yatai-hopping

I did a like calculation when I was comparing long zooms - basically a 200mm lens on an APS-C sensor has an AOV of 8 degrees (diagonal). At 25m, this means a scene width of 2.9m across the sensor (and height of 1.9m on a 3:2 aspect sensor). At 40m, it's 40/25 * these numbers (3m height). You won't get upper body only without cropping, but at 25m you'll still have a lot of pixels.

DOF at that distance is about 2.5m at f/4 and 1.7m at f/2.8 (photopils calculator).

Thanks for the reply. it seems that for 200mm, that will be a near full body shot on 3:2 horizontal.

For those with experience in shooting in such settings indoor, what would you prioritize over? the focal length (for composition) or the aperture (shutter speed)? what will be the bottomline or bottleneck?

Dave981 said:

I did a like calculation when I was comparing long zooms - basically a 200mm lens on an APS-C sensor has an AOV of 8 degrees (diagonal). At 25m, this means a scene width of 2.9m across the sensor (and height of 1.9m on a 3:2 aspect sensor). At 40m, it's 40/25 * these numbers (3m height). You won't get upper body only without cropping, but at 25m you'll still have a lot of pixels.

DOF at that distance is about 2.5m at f/4 and 1.7m at f/2.8 (photopils calculator).

Click to expand...

If you draw out similar triangles from your sensor, through the focal length of the lens, and out to your subject, you'll see that the triangles are "similar" in the mathematical sense.
So if D is the distance to your subject, H is the height of your subject, F is your focal length, and S is your sensor height, then:


D/H = F/S

Keep your units consistent on each side of the equation. You can measure focal length and sensor height both in millimeters, and you could measure both distance and height of your subject in meters.

So if you want an image 2 m tall at a distance of 20 m, then D/H = 10. So your focal length needs to be 10 times your sensor height. This is 240 mm on Full Frame in landscape orientation, or 360 mm in portrait orientation. You can play with the numbers from here. (APS-C sensor size is 16 x 23 mm, and you can adjust the spacing around your subject, or the distance)

saltydough said:

Thanks for the reply. it seems that for 200mm, that will be a near full body shot on 3:2 horizontal.

For those with experience in shooting in such settings indoor, what would you prioritize over? the focal length (for composition) or the aperture (shutter speed)? what will be the bottomline or bottleneck?

Click to expand...

My only experience with sumo in Japan was 40 plus years ago so no current experience to draw on. The "problem," I'm guessing some, is you could have rather poor lighting.That plus the main subjects will be moving so you'd want to keep to fast shutter speeds. That leads to thinking one of the f2.8 zooms. The good news is, that gets shallower depth of field, too, if shooting wide open. But more expense and weight.

Buying a lens specifically for one event, I'd think, for my historic budget limitations, wasn't typically something I would do. Can you rent a lens? If not, then is one or another of these lenses predicatably more useful in the long run.? I've never gotten a 70-200/2.8. Too expensive, too heavy, etc. I'd had 70-300 variable aperture lenses with film, and dslrs.

I do have and get a lot of general use, pretty much all the time with my 28-200. I do also have a Sony 70-350/4.5-6.3 but it's not an indoor sports lens, really, it would push iso well up to get sports shutter speeds. The Tamron 50-300/4.5/6.3, likewise not a "sports" lens, might be another one to consider for general use depending on what you may have in the midrange area. Not awfully expensive and more focal length range to use.

One thing that you might want to consider is that several of the post-processing/editing programs have noise reduction features and that might be helpful here and in general uses.

The Ryantist said:

Dave981 said:

I did a like calculation when I was comparing long zooms - basically a 200mm lens on an APS-C sensor has an AOV of 8 degrees (diagonal). At 25m, this means a scene width of 2.9m across the sensor (and height of 1.9m on a 3:2 aspect sensor). At 40m, it's 40/25 * these numbers (3m height). You won't get upper body only without cropping, but at 25m you'll still have a lot of pixels.

DOF at that distance is about 2.5m at f/4 and 1.7m at f/2.8 (photopils calculator).

Click to expand...

If you draw out similar triangles from your sensor, through the focal length of the lens, and out to your subject, you'll see that the triangles are "similar" in the mathematical sense.
So if D is the distance to your subject, H is the height of your subject, F is your focal length, and S is your sensor height, then:

D/H = F/S

Keep your units consistent on each side of the equation. You can measure focal length and sensor height both in millimeters, and you could measure both distance and height of your subject in meters.

So if you want an image 2 m tall at a distance of 20 m, then D/H = 10. So your focal length needs to be 10 times your sensor height. This is 240 mm on Full Frame in landscape orientation, or 360 mm in portrait orientation. You can play with the numbers from here. (APS-C sensor size is 16 x 23 mm, and you can adjust the spacing around your subject, or the distance)

Click to expand...

In the end I used chatgpt to answer some of my questions. Perhaps I should go for the paid version but a handy app that doesn’t require internet connection will be the best.

Craig Gillette said:

saltydough said:

Thanks for the reply. it seems that for 200mm, that will be a near full body shot on 3:2 horizontal.

For those with experience in shooting in such settings indoor, what would you prioritize over? the focal length (for composition) or the aperture (shutter speed)? what will be the bottomline or bottleneck?

Click to expand...

My only experience with sumo in Japan was 40 plus years ago so no current experience to draw on. The "problem," I'm guessing some, is you could have rather poor lighting.That plus the main subjects will be moving so you'd want to keep to fast shutter speeds. That leads to thinking one of the f2.8 zooms. The good news is, that gets shallower depth of field, too, if shooting wide open. But more expense and weight.

Buying a lens specifically for one event, I'd think, for my historic budget limitations, wasn't typically something I would do. Can you rent a lens? If not, then is one or another of these lenses predicatably more useful in the long run.? I've never gotten a 70-200/2.8. Too expensive, too heavy, etc. I'd had 70-300 variable aperture lenses with film, and dslrs.

I do have and get a lot of general use, pretty much all the time with my 28-200. I do also have a Sony 70-350/4.5-6.3 but it's not an indoor sports lens, really, it would push iso well up to get sports shutter speeds. The Tamron 50-300/4.5/6.3, likewise not a "sports" lens, might be another one to consider for general use depending on what you may have in the midrange area. Not awfully expensive and more focal length range to use.

One thing that you might want to consider is that several of the post-processing/editing programs have noise reduction features and that might be helpful here and in general uses.

Click to expand...

Eventually I got some answers from ChatGPT and also ask a birding friend.

I will need at least a f2.8 for indoor and aim to have 1/500-1/1000 for shutter speed. Good news is I had a better view of the ringside distance (though not fukuoka) from a youtube video and there is a chance I’m nearer at 25-30m away.

As this is an overseas shooting for two weeks, the lens rental from my place is going to be very expensive, which will cost a quarter to a third of the lens price if I buy it locally with warranty, and half the lens price if I buy it in japan without international warranty.

these are heavy lens that will not make it for daily travel use, but if I go for more concerts and events, I may be able to make it worthwhile

in the end, I will consider buying brand new or second hand

- Tamron 70-180mm f2.8 indoor sports

- sigma 100-400mm f6.3 outdoor event

--
I may not always agree with different opinions, but criticisms, advices or suggestions on my photos are always welcomed.

saltydough said:

The Ryantist said:

Dave981 said:

I did a like calculation when I was comparing long zooms - basically a 200mm lens on an APS-C sensor has an AOV of 8 degrees (diagonal). At 25m, this means a scene width of 2.9m across the sensor (and height of 1.9m on a 3:2 aspect sensor). At 40m, it's 40/25 * these numbers (3m height). You won't get upper body only without cropping, but at 25m you'll still have a lot of pixels.

DOF at that distance is about 2.5m at f/4 and 1.7m at f/2.8 (photopils calculator).

Click to expand...

If you draw out similar triangles from your sensor, through the focal length of the lens, and out to your subject, you'll see that the triangles are "similar" in the mathematical sense.
So if D is the distance to your subject, H is the height of your subject, F is your focal length, and S is your sensor height, then:

D/H = F/S

Keep your units consistent on each side of the equation. You can measure focal length and sensor height both in millimeters, and you could measure both distance and height of your subject in meters.

So if you want an image 2 m tall at a distance of 20 m, then D/H = 10. So your focal length needs to be 10 times your sensor height. This is 240 mm on Full Frame in landscape orientation, or 360 mm in portrait orientation. You can play with the numbers from here. (APS-C sensor size is 16 x 23 mm, and you can adjust the spacing around your subject, or the distance)

Click to expand...

In the end I used chatgpt to answer some of my questions. Perhaps I should go for the paid version but a handy app that doesn’t require internet connection will be the best.

Click to expand...

There are a lot of apps available. Right now I have "photographer's companion" (android) on my phone and it has dof, fov, recommended shutter speeds, and exposure calculators.

Thanks Dave. I will check out the apps

saltydough said:

Thanks Dave. I will check out the apps

Click to expand...

if you want something more visual there's the "magic sony viewfinder" app which is a lot more clunky than the other I mentioned but which approximates the view at a desired zoom level using the phone camera.

Dave981 said:

saltydough said:

Thanks Dave. I will check out the apps

Click to expand...

if you want something more visual there's the "magic sony viewfinder" app which is a lot more clunky than the other I mentioned but which approximates the view at a desired zoom level using the phone camera.

Click to expand...

Actually one that for a given distance,

I can enter the focal length and it will give me the height of the frame, or vice Versa

i enter the height, and it’s gives the focal length needed.




it helps in deciding which lens to bring out

saltydough said:

Dave981 said:

saltydough said:

Thanks Dave. I will check out the apps

Click to expand...

if you want something more visual there's the "magic sony viewfinder" app which is a lot more clunky than the other I mentioned but which approximates the view at a desired zoom level using the phone camera.

Click to expand...

Actually one that for a given distance,

I can enter the focal length and it will give me the height of the frame, or vice Versa

i enter the height, and it’s gives the focal length needed.

it helps in deciding which lens to bring out

Click to expand...

There are others but this is what I've been using: https://sites.google.com/view/photographerscompanion/home (clicking field of view lets you type in frame h/w)