Now I understand the reason for Optical VF

Being able to see those areas clearly so you can compose for them with the view of editing afterwards I think is a pretty clear benefit.
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. I compose the same regardless of the DR. How I expose can change with the DR but after 45 years of using OVFs and 15 with EVFs I find it easier to judge exposure with an EVF. Maybe it's different for you.
Its not a question of judging exposure but rather composition, being able to see detail in dark areas of an image allows you to compose for those areas more easily.
An EVF is always going to have a maximum brightness above which detail is burned out and a minimum below which everything is black.
This used to be the case. Now with high brightness OLED EVFs that we have, with infinite contrast ratios...

Let's just say that the difference between EVF and OVF when it comes to contrast isn't nearly as big as it used to be, and it gets slimmer every year.
If one is already committed to a specific camera, let's say the Z9, the EVF doesn't change unless one buys a different camera. I don't know about you but I don't buy a new camera every year, I bought the last one, a D5, in May 2023.
That's not what I was suggesting. You're reading way too much into what I actually said.

I didn't say that you needed to get a new camera every year, I said that EVFs were getting closer and closer to OVFs. This is a completely different thing. You went on your rambling based on the last 5 words of what I said, misinterpreting what I was actually saying.
I don't use mirrorless cameras but, if I did, the fact that the latest camera from brand X had the OLED EVF you mention would make no difference if I used brand Y with a less capable EVF. Indeed, it wouldn't be a reason to change brands. Technology marches on incrementally but owners don't upgrade incrementally and existing cameras aren't upgraded incrementally. Once a camera reaches the stores it is frozen. Thus although the potential for a better EVF improves every year cameras incorporating that latest cutting edge technology will be some years away. Meanwhile, someone using a Z9 and having a problem with the EVF overloading can pick up a DSLR, which the may still own, and solve their immediate problem.
EVF overloading? You mean clipping highlights? You realize that this is part of the "what you see is what you get" aspect of EVFs and that you can turn that off?

Also, going from mirrorless to DSLR might bring a whole lot of other issues, like mirrorslap, loss of IBIS, lower burst rate, no subject detection, no good AF when using the back screen, maybe no articulating screen either.
None of which "EVF advantages" mean that a DSLR can't capture stunning images. It might not be as easy but it is possible.
Did I ever say that they were requirements for taking great images? I don't think I did.

They are convinience features that people could prefer to have over the opposite. They are litterally preference factors.

You prefer to have a DSLR with a large built in grip. Some people prefer to have subject detection autofocus and electronic shutter.
(and no, I don't care if you use them personally or not. Lots of people do)
 
Being able to see those areas clearly so you can compose for them with the view of editing afterwards I think is a pretty clear benefit.
Sorry but that doesn't make any sense. Maybe I don't understand what you are saying. I compose the same regardless of the DR. How I expose can change with the DR but after 45 years of using OVFs and 15 with EVFs I find it easier to judge exposure with an EVF. Maybe it's different for you.
Its not a question of judging exposure but rather composition, being able to see detail in dark areas of an image allows you to compose for those areas more easily.
An EVF is always going to have a maximum brightness above which detail is burned out and a minimum below which everything is black.
This used to be the case. Now with high brightness OLED EVFs that we have, with infinite contrast ratios...

Let's just say that the difference between EVF and OVF when it comes to contrast isn't nearly as big as it used to be, and it gets slimmer every year.
If one is already committed to a specific camera, let's say the Z9, the EVF doesn't change unless one buys a different camera. I don't know about you but I don't buy a new camera every year, I bought the last one, a D5, in May 2023.
That's not what I was suggesting. You're reading way too much into what I actually said.

I didn't say that you needed to get a new camera every year, I said that EVFs were getting closer and closer to OVFs. This is a completely different thing. You went on your rambling based on the last 5 words of what I said, misinterpreting what I was actually saying.
I don't use mirrorless cameras but, if I did, the fact that the latest camera from brand X had the OLED EVF you mention would make no difference if I used brand Y with a less capable EVF. Indeed, it wouldn't be a reason to change brands. Technology marches on incrementally but owners don't upgrade incrementally and existing cameras aren't upgraded incrementally. Once a camera reaches the stores it is frozen. Thus although the potential for a better EVF improves every year cameras incorporating that latest cutting edge technology will be some years away. Meanwhile, someone using a Z9 and having a problem with the EVF overloading can pick up a DSLR, which the may still own, and solve their immediate problem.
EVF overloading? You mean clipping highlights? You realize that this is part of the "what you see is what you get" aspect of EVFs and that you can turn that off?

Also, going from mirrorless to DSLR might bring a whole lot of other issues, like mirrorslap, loss of IBIS, lower burst rate, no subject detection, no good AF when using the back screen, maybe no articulating screen either.
None of which "EVF advantages" mean that a DSLR can't capture stunning images. It might not be as easy but it is possible.
Did I ever say that they were requirements for taking great images? I don't think I did.
No, you didn't but some seem to take it personally that anyone wouldn't want an EVF.
They are convinience features that people could prefer to have over the opposite. They are litterally preference factors.

You prefer to have a DSLR with a large built in grip. Some people prefer to have subject detection autofocus and electronic shutter.
(and no, I don't care if you use them personally or not. Lots of people do)
 
.. recently had the opportunity to use 2 OVFs - one MFT and One for FF ...
You are mistaken. There is no such thing as a MFT camera with an OVF, by definition.
 
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I kept reading about how OVF is good.. but always had my doubts that how can something bright be bad compared to a dark view..
Then .. recently had the opportunity to use 2 OVFs - one MFT and One for FF and then it dawned on me--
There is this lag of maybe few millisecs that is good enough to tell its virtual.. when u move the camera to frame... It is just jittery.. Also its just not reality - too bright.

Never thought that would be the case as the video on cell phone looks so realtime..
The tradeoff is though AF where MILC wins. I discovered that AF needs adjustments on DSLR so have my doubts that it will never be the correct one for a zoom lens and the distance..

-- Cheers
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The reason for optical VF is that EVF hadn’t been developed.
 
I kept reading about how OVF is good.. but always had my doubts that how can something bright be bad compared to a dark view..
Then .. recently had the opportunity to use 2 OVFs - one MFT and One for FF and then it dawned on me--
There is this lag of maybe few millisecs that is good enough to tell its virtual.. when u move the camera to frame... It is just jittery.. Also its just not reality - too bright.

Never thought that would be the case as the video on cell phone looks so realtime..
The tradeoff is though AF where MILC wins. I discovered that AF needs adjustments on DSLR so have my doubts that it will never be the correct one for a zoom lens and the distance..
The reason for optical VF is that EVF hadn’t been developed.
By that reasoning, the reason that we have large sensors is that we hadn't developed adequate noise reduction software and software background blurring.

The reasons we developed zoom lenses is that we didn't have enough resolution to crop in the camera.

.

The fact that technology allows us to do something new doesn't mean that the new is necessarily better. Often a new technology takes over because it is less expensive and good enough.

Now, I am not commenting on whether or not EVF is better or worse. Only that it is certainly good enough, and makes for mechanically and optically less complicated cameras. With that going for it, mirrorless will win out over DSLR whether or not it is better.

To put things in perspective, the smartphone has taken the lions share of the camera market. Not because it is better than a traditional camera. But because it is good enough, and camera functionality adds only a small amount to the cost of the smartphone.
 
I keep reading about how the evf is good. On occasion I go to a store with intent to buy the latest well reviewed mirrorless camera (typically a Nikon as I am a Nikon DSLR shooter and previously a Nikon film shooter). But, then I lift the camera to my eye and my eye throws up just a little bit. The colors are so off; the scene is so fake. Even though the cameras are in auto white balance,I guess they compensate far too much for the indoor lighting. Happens with other brands as well. The salesman proceeds to fiddle with the settings to make it look more like the actual scene. What a bother! I guess I prefer reality over a close approximation to it. Yes, I lose out on all the fancy af algorithms and the real time histogram. I will somehow have to attain focus and exposure the old-fashioned way. I can't make use of the very well reviewed Z lenses. I will have to make do with old-fashioned sharpness. Oh well. Saving some coin in the process. Not saying I won't someday buy an evf equipped camera. Seems like too much work to make it work for me right now. Especially when I have three perfectly good ovf equipped cameras that fit hand in glove.
 
EVFs were not around when photography was invented. ;-)

Fast forward to today, to buy an OVF that is really bright and not the pothole you get when peeping through a penta-mirror APS-C DSLR cam, you need to invest in the dying breed of FF DSLRs with a true pentaprism.

EVFs have come a long way. And most cams with an EVF also offer a hinged LCD, allowing for shooting angles and positions a DSLR FF OVF simply prohibits unless you add corresponding accessories.

This from previously owning one of the best FF OVFs - as was made available in the Sony a900 back in late 2008...
Cheers,
Ralf
 
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I kept reading about how OVF is good.. but always had my doubts that how can something bright be bad compared to a dark view..
Then .. recently had the opportunity to use 2 OVFs - one MFT and One for FF and then it dawned on me--
There is this lag of maybe few millisecs that is good enough to tell its virtual.. when u move the camera to frame... It is just jittery.. Also its just not reality - too bright.

Never thought that would be the case as the video on cell phone looks so realtime..
The tradeoff is though AF where MILC wins. I discovered that AF needs adjustments on DSLR so have my doubts that it will never be the correct one for a zoom lens and the distance..
The reason for optical VF is that EVF hadn’t been developed.
For most of the 200+ year history of photography view finding has been optical. Only in the past 25 years or so has the electronic viewfinder been practical in a portable device. Equally, for most of the preceding 175 years the view finder was just that, the EVF is a lot more than just a viewfinder.
 
I bought a MILC (Z6II) for one reason- for its fast frame rate for action. I still use my DSLR (D810) for other things. The EVF for my use is barely adequate. I want higher resolution so I can see what is in focus. Also I understand the technical differences between the focus system integrating with the sensor vs. an optimized focus module, but my D810 focuses faster and is more positive. When it focuses, it is focused. When the MILC focuses it might be focused or it might not be. I end up with some percentage of shots that are out of focus.
 
I bought a MILC (Z6II) for one reason- for its fast frame rate for action. I still use my DSLR (D810) for other things. The EVF for my use is barely adequate. I want higher resolution so I can see what is in focus. Also I understand the technical differences between the focus system integrating with the sensor vs. an optimized focus module, but my D810 focuses faster and is more positive. When it focuses, it is focused. When the MILC focuses it might be focused or it might not be. I end up with some percentage of shots that are out of focus.
I suggest you got a bad MILC. The accuracy and reliability and speed of the best MILC AF systems is the best you can get.
 
I kept reading about how OVF is good.. but always had my doubts that how can something bright be bad compared to a dark view..
Then .. recently had the opportunity to use 2 OVFs - one MFT and One for FF and then it dawned on me--
There is this lag of maybe few millisecs that is good enough to tell its virtual.. when u move the camera to frame... It is just jittery.. Also its just not reality - too bright.

Never thought that would be the case as the video on cell phone looks so realtime..
The tradeoff is though AF where MILC wins. I discovered that AF needs adjustments on DSLR so have my doubts that it will never be the correct one for a zoom lens and the distance..
OVF's weren't all good. It depended enormously on the quality and price of the camera. When you look through the viewfinder of a good OVF, it will be bright and wide. But do the same on a lower spec camera, and you will look through a small and dark tunnel.
 
Nevertheless many photographers will never like EVFs. They represent a kind of "barrier" between them and the photographed subject. Optical VF is much more acceptable.
For now.

Every year EVFs get closer and closer to bringing that barrier down. Lag free, super high resolutions, super fast refresh rates, no blackout while shooting... Who knows what EVFs will be in 5 years time looking at how they improved over the last 5 years.
There is one respect in which the EVF will almost certainly never equal the OVF and that is usability without power. Some people may not appreciate that facility but being able to track a subject without flattening the battery in the process can be very useful.
I suppose that is true for a small subset of photographers. It's not something I consider important.
I however, do consider it important. The whole point is, we aren't all alike and, for some, in specific circumstances, the EVF just doesn't work.
Or, you predict/fear that it will be important, and that resistance to change keeps you from even trying.
 
It seems to me that those who like their EVFs believe that everybody else would benefit from having one. It may well be the case that an EVF is generally beneficial, I've never used a good one so I couldn't say.

What I can say is that it appears some are unwilling to accept that there are people who genuinely prefer the OVF of an SLR and don't want an EVF. I don't think anyone should have to justify their choices.

Personally, I can't get along with composing on the rear screen of any camera so any form of articulated screen is wasted on me.

I do know that there are aspects of the EVF that I positively don't want, such as anything in the image area. With an OVF only the focus point is in the image area. It's personal preference but, as with anyone else personal preference matters. Yes, I know that the EVF can be configured but, as I have concluded that mirrorless doesn't make financial sense for me, I'm not going there.
More often than not, it is about one group never having tried the other, out of fear of change, whereas the other group has tried both. Or like in the OP, where they fundamentally misunderstand the tech and think that all evfs and sensors are the same...which is astonishing imo.
 
It seems to me that those who like their EVFs believe that everybody else would benefit from having one. It may well be the case that an EVF is generally beneficial, I've never used a good one so I couldn't say.

What I can say is that it appears some are unwilling to accept that there are people who genuinely prefer the OVF of an SLR and don't want an EVF. I don't think anyone should have to justify their choices.

Personally, I can't get along with composing on the rear screen of any camera so any form of articulated screen is wasted on me.

I do know that there are aspects of the EVF that I positively don't want, such as anything in the image area. With an OVF only the focus point is in the image area. It's personal preference but, as with anyone else personal preference matters. Yes, I know that the EVF can be configured but, as I have concluded that mirrorless doesn't make financial sense for me, I'm not going there.
More often than not, it is about one group never having tried the other, out of fear of change, whereas the other group has tried both. Or like in the OP, where they fundamentally misunderstand the tech and think that all evfs and sensors are the same...which is astonishing imo.
There is also the issue, that some people like change, and will go for new technology whether or not it is better.

There are others who have established a workflow that works for them. If your workflow is giving you everything you want, what is the advantage of going through the effort to change it? There's an old saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Why change to something that offers advantages that you don't need?

The fact that something is the right choice for one photographer, does not mean it is the right choice for all photographers.

.

The thing I find most surprising is that there are some people so devoted to their personal choice, that they are unwilling to consider the possibility that there exist some circumstances, where their choice is not the optimal one.
 
I had the nikon D850, but I really disliked the mirror slap noise.

For my daughters wedding I wanted a near silent camera.

I was affraid of the EVF, but am very happy that I did make the switch to the Z6III.

Sometimes you really just have to do it.
 
Nevertheless many photographers will never like EVFs. They represent a kind of "barrier" between them and the photographed subject. Optical VF is much more acceptable.
For now.

Every year EVFs get closer and closer to bringing that barrier down. Lag free, super high resolutions, super fast refresh rates, no blackout while shooting... Who knows what EVFs will be in 5 years time looking at how they improved over the last 5 years.
There is one respect in which the EVF will almost certainly never equal the OVF and that is usability without power. Some people may not appreciate that facility but being able to track a subject without flattening the battery in the process can be very useful.
I suppose that is true for a small subset of photographers. It's not something I consider important.
I however, do consider it important. The whole point is, we aren't all alike and, for some, in specific circumstances, the EVF just doesn't work.
Or, you predict/fear that it will be important, and that resistance to change keeps you from even trying.
No, a reluctance to spend a large sum of money prevents me from trying.

I won't justify my position, the decision is mine alone.
 
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I had the nikon D850, but I really disliked the mirror slap noise.

For my daughters wedding I wanted a near silent camera.

I was affraid of the EVF, but am very happy that I did make the switch to the Z6III.

Sometimes you really just have to do it.
That's an excellent example. Your DSLR didn't meet your needs in terms of sound. Moving to mirrorless was a solution that solved your problem.

However, it wasn't the EVF that solved the sound problem. A digital rangefinder with an optical viewfinder would also have solved the issue of noise from mirror slap.

Many photographers shoot in situations where the noise from mirror slap isn't an issue at all. For them a reduction of sound may not be an advantage.

.

I actually know a photographer who adores the sound of mirror slap. In his mind he associates that sound with something being a "real" camera.

To each their own.
 
I kept reading about how OVF is good.. but always had my doubts that how can something bright be bad compared to a dark view..
Then .. recently had the opportunity to use 2 OVFs - one MFT and One for FF and then it dawned on me--
There is this lag of maybe few millisecs that is good enough to tell its virtual.. when u move the camera to frame... It is just jittery.. Also its just not reality - too bright.

Never thought that would be the case as the video on cell phone looks so realtime..
The tradeoff is though AF where MILC wins. I discovered that AF needs adjustments on DSLR so have my doubts that it will never be the correct one for a zoom lens and the distance..
OVF's weren't all good. It depended enormously on the quality and price of the camera. When you look through the viewfinder of a good OVF, it will be bright and wide. But do the same on a lower spec camera, and you will look through a small and dark tunnel.
Although I think you could argue that there's not really an equivalent of pentamirror DSLR's in the current market or if there is then its mirrorless cameras with either no EVF at all or a low end ones.

I feel like the APSC mirrorless we get now is more akin to cameras like the Canon xxD series or the Nikon D7xxx series which had proper pentaprisms.
 
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