Upcoming forum changes: investing in our community's future

Mathew Anderson said:

Ozzie SD said:

Mathew Anderson said:

Ozzie SD said:

Mathew Anderson said:

musicshootr said:

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

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Agreed, this is why we're posting this letter to you now. While some things, like XenForo itself, are baked in and what is launching, some of the look and how things flow are still up for consideration.

I'll see if we can provide some previews of the look of the forums and see what you all think. We'll improve what we can, and continue to do so after it launches.

One thing to note, the forums are just that... forums.

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A couch is just a couch ... but for someone who has been sitting on that couch for 25 years it is not 'just' a couch. It is a trusted place to come back to every day. Replacing that couch one day without asking, might the owner have looking for another couch.

I understand you guys want to improve, but do it the right way. Saying this for your own benefits.

Mathew Anderson said:

This isn't something completely different. The style will look familiar in part with the colors and such that you are generally used to. Login buttons, profile view, all of that still exists. It's not that much different in a sense.

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It's not just improving, we have to do this for the community to not just survive but to grow, Better to have a different larger couch than no couch at all, right?

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That depends, if it is a couch no one wants to sit on ... ;-)

I think I made my point. Here you can read my advice how to get the users involved.

Can you confirm the new intended forum only enables flat view and not threaded view? Is that information correct? Or is threaded view available as well?

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Thanks for the link, noted! And agreed, point taken .

Correct, XenForo currently does not support what we know of as Threaded View, but we have made it clear to their team that it is a feature that our team and community feels is worth having.

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I hate to spoil the party, but I am really afraid this is a big deal breaker and reason for many users to leave the community. Threaded view is not something that can be built in a few days. Might take a few months. More than enough time to see all of your users disappear. Please please please reconsider and put the change on hold. Have a poll on the forum and ask who of the users want/require the threaded view on the new forum. That might give you an indication of what might happen when you implement the new forum on a short notice.

Mathew Anderson said:

It may be possible in the future to work with them to make it happen, but this is still uncertain. The XenForo team has shown a lot of commitment to working with us to adapt the platform to DPReview's specific needs as much as possible so far.

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A possible future promise is worth nothing with all respect.


Credits to you for answering all messages. I understand it might not feel pretty to take all the blame here. It's not personal.

The more I am reading about this change, the more it feels like a big mistake.

When DPR announced its closure a few years ago, a bunch of alternative sites went up. None of them had threaded views, and I am sure a few were generated/hosted by the folks you've hired to manage the new DPR.

I used a few of them for some months, and yes, the photo display options were indeed very good...but without threading, it became impossible to follow things once they were a few pages in.

I found my interest waned in keeping up with them after that, and, fortunately, DPR re-emerged, and I continued/resumed posting here.

I'm sorry, guys, but you really, really, should have made threading the single most important factor in choosing a company to design the website revision.

Promises like "oh we may do that later" are empty. By the time, and if, they are able to get around to that, folks like me will have moved on, and you will lose a whole lot more than you will gain.

But, you know, it's clearly a done deal, so it will be what it will be. I just wish there was a way I could download my entire gallery so I could actually save it, as once it's gone from here it will be gone, and I am very bummed about that.

-J

Bill Ferris said:

BryanHL said:

I can understand your motivations for making a change.

However:

It is such a backwards step to go to FLAT VIEW ONLY.

Threaded view is imperative in threads that have lots of responses and where sub-threads about certain points evolve.

With Flat View IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to follow the conversation without wasting heaps of time scrolling up and down trying to work out who replied to what comment. And then there are those that make comments without quoting - to which post were they referring??? With threaded view it is clear. Flat view it just becomes a jumbled mess!!!

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Hi Bryan, I can certainly understand your concern over the default flat view display of XenForo forums. I've been on DPR since 2013 and am personally a fan of the threaded display option here.

That said, I'm a dedicated wildlife and bird photographer. For about 6 months, I've been active on Steve Perry's (the wildlife photog; not the rock vocalist) Backcountry Gallery forum, which is built on the XenForo platform.

It did take some time for me to adjust to a flat view thread display. However, now that I'm used to it, flat view doesn't prevent me from following discussions, their evolution, and staying involved in the topics that interest me. Obviously, I don't speak for anybody other than myself. However, I would encourage you to take Dale's ask to heart: give the new site a try when it goes public, see what you think, and most definitely offer your feedback on the user experience once you've had some time to test drive it.

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Hi Bill,

I have been using a Xenforo based site for nearly a year, and another site that is similarly Flat View.

So my comments are based on existing experience. But not just photography sites - I have been using forums for 30 years...

I know there are some who don't seem to mind flat view. I am just not in that camp.

Bill Ferris said:

I'm a co-mod in the Fujifilm X System forum and, along with the other forum moderators and DPR staff, have been exploring and kicking the tires on a test environment version of the new DPR site. I find the overall design, organization, and user interface to be very familiar.

Some of the new features that I like include group chat, more options for filtering displayed messages, and more emoji options when reacting to a message.

I know Dale and the DPR team want to create more platforms for featuring member content. Moderators will have the ability to pin posts atop a forum page. There are also built-in tools on a XenForo site making it easy for a member to peruse recently uploaded images, to react and comment on those images. This is something I really like about the Backcountry Gallery forums and is a feature I believe will add a nice element of member interactivity to the DPR experience.

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I actually like most of the Xenforo features. I really like the expanded set of emoji "likes".

It's just that, as a long time PC user and early internet adopter, Threaded View has always been a no brainer.

There is another feature in most threaded view forums - that is expandable / collapsible threads / sub threads with the little [+] [-]. Makes navigation so much easier...

Bill Ferris said:

Bill Ferris said:

When DPR was going to close, I joined one of the new emergent forums. It didn't use Xenforo but was similarly Flat View only. All the users continually complained - "We need Threaded View".

Max image size: Xenforo has a max image size of 1600 x 1600 px. Not being able to view an image in its native size means you just can't see the detail in those really good images. Then you might as well have just used a smartphone. What's the point of having a good capable camera when you can't showcase the quality of your images???

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I can share that the test environment allows much larger images than 1600 x 1600 pixels to be uploaded. I've personally uploaded a 13986 x 4847 pixel JPEG of a stitched pano. The file is 21.3MB in size. I've also test uploaded an 8256 x 5504 JPEG (9.3MB) from a processed Z9 file. The image quality at screen resolution is very good. Viewed at 100%, the images display at about 80% of the quality I see when viewing photos at 100% in LrC.

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Yes I accept that correction - I actually did a quick search before I posted that and the results weren't conclusive enough to change my mind - which was based on an existing Xenforo site.

Bill Ferris said:

Bill Ferris said:

The Xenforo maintainers have a really stubborn attitude to this max image size. They speak as if "Who would want more than 1MP"? Well Bill Gates once said "Who needs more than 640KB"? Look at windows now. 16GB minimum.

This may be a gear oriented site but there are still many who like to showcase their results. I am also on a Xenforo site. I find myself sometimes cropping in really tight so that people can see the detail - makes a mockery of composition when you have to cut out most of the background.

I am rather surprised that the decision was made without forum member input. I know there will always be some dissatisfied no matter what choice you make. But I would have thought getting a consensus first would have been the smarter move....

Not happy jan...

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It can be easy to think of Dale, Scott, Mathew and DPR staff only as administrators of the site. As Dale mentioned in a recent post, he was a member long before he joined the professional staff at DPR. Mathew applied for and came to DPR, in part, because of his experience as a member. Working with them on this project, I have come to appreciate their commitment to making DPR better prepared for a future it has the potential to enjoy.

Yes, the first 25+ years for DPR have been remarkable. This site is among the most trusted sources on the web. Digital photography has undergone so much change over the last decade, as have the practitioners of this medium. When Dale says the forums need a new platform to enable new content and user experiences, I believe him. The new site will take some getting used to, but it will also open new doors to how members are able to interact with the site and each other.

I'm gonna make the same ask as Dale. Let's give the new site a chance, test drive it for a bit, and offer candid & constructive feedback on how it can be better. If we come together to help make this migration a success, that will be something we all can take pride in.

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I do respect their efforts. Hearing from people who have maintained forums the general comment has always been that it is a thankless task.

And I have no reason to doubt that it is time to move on.

I have seen the effects of the odd destructive poster and forums where they prevail - fortunately not too bad here.

It is just that I am a strong proponent of Threaded View and the utility of it.

I watched user interfaces evolve in the early days of PCs. It became a sink or swim for a lot of software products as users came to expect simplicity in menu layout / design - something that has had some parallels in camera menus in recent times.

However lately a lot of that innovation seems to have been thrown out in favour of glitz - I find most pp software terrible in this regard. Call me old school but really to me it is about ease of use, simplicity and clarity - function over form.

Be totally honest with yourselves about why you didn't solicit feedback about this change prior to doing it.

I can answer it for you: Because if you had asked for feedback, the move to a new system would have been messy, would have needed to incorporate a diverse user base's wants and needs, and would have taken more time than making a unilateral move.

It's tempting to just make a rash decision because for $195 or whatever XenForo promises to offer an easier, faster, more convenient, more straightforward solution to this nagging problem that's always crossing your desks of "this forum is down" or "the server is acting wonky" or "someone is being a troll in ____ forum again" or what have you. But when you're the user base of the site, you don't see those nagging problems - you only see a community where you're among friends, where you know how to use the site and how to engage with others.

Put yourselves in our shoes. Think about why people don't want to see this site change. Why we don't want it to be just like other photography forums. Why we want to be able to choose whether to follow divergences in the discussion or whether to bypass them. Then you'll start to understand why moving to a new platform without soliciting our feedback is a bad decision.

How would you like it if one of us came in and suddenly dictated the way you must format your stories? If we changed the location of your byline, or the number of photos you could (or were required to) post, or the number or length or type of comments the story could gather? Wouldn't you want feedback on that type of thing, rather than someone coming in and changing it because "the new way is easier for us"?

That's how this is making us feel. Get honest with yourselves about why you didn't solicit feedback and then solicit that feedback and incorporate it rather than just moving forward with this solution that people in this community do not want.

Be totally honest about why you only posted this in one forum, too. Same reason: Because soliciting feedback is messy. But it's worth it if you want to build something people keep coming back to.

Bill Ferris said:

(...) There are also built-in tools on a XenForo site making it easy for a member to peruse recently uploaded images, to react and comment on those images. This is something I really like about the Backcountry Gallery forums and is a feature I believe will add a nice element of member interactivity to the DPR experience.

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Dpreview had this feature many years ago... but for an unknown reason it was removed from the website .

It always struck me as utterly bizarre.

The important thing for me with this site is the THREADED forum view.

Without a threaded view my participation in and reading of forms will immediately stop and my time spent reading this site generally will quickly fall to zero. There are lots of other places where I can get the specs of the latest cameras and lenses

All the nice new features you’re bringing to make this site look more like a social media platform will be of no value to me. Perhaps it’s my age, and that has me wondering how aware you are of the age demographic for site members.

TN Args said:

It always struck me as utterly bizarre.

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There isn't a default thread limit like the current forums.

Fantastic news! It would be good to limit how much of a reply is being copied as it makes subsequent replies hard to get to. Right now it's all or nothing so a smart solution in between would be great.

Whenever I read statements like, "These improvements will make it easier", I think, "Oh boy, another learning cure".

.

I'm not sure if I'm reading this right, but this sure feels sketchy!

Look at all the companies in the past and present that thought

they know what's best for their customers. For example ---

Bud Light, Cracker Barell, and the list goes on and on.

Now I admit I'm pretty old and don't like change

but along the way there's a familiar saying

"If it's not broken don't try to fix it."

That's called common sense!

Jon&Crew.

.

Reinventing The Wheel -



..

It is quite broken in various ways, especially on smartphones.

Also I have to say that there is VERY little discussion overall in these forums compared to what I assumed it should be. It's also mostly a very small number of the same regulars all over the forums.

I understand the concerns about threaded mode, anyway. I don't like it, at all, but if some people want it, that's too bad.

Mathew Anderson said:

We totally agree with you on working together to make it a great experience, especially since it's new and a change from over 25 years of past use. This is why we're announcing it to just the core forum community first, so we can discuss with you and take in your recommendations and suggestions as we can make them.

As Dale tried to express, we have to move to a new forum solution and why we are announcing it to now instead of just implementing it in surprise. The rest is up to us together to make a success. Our entire team is appreciative of your feedback here.

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Mathew,

I'm sorry, but it's clear that you just don't get it. Or aren't willing to acknowledge the problem.

The actions the team has taken make it evident that "working together" is not at all a priority. Claiming you are announcing it "to just the core community first" is, quite frankly, disingenuous. You are announcing this as a fait accompli. You are making these changes. You are moving to Xenforo. You are dropping threaded view. There is no discussion about that; it's done. All those decisions are in the past. They were made privately, by your team alone, and without the participation or even knowledge of the community. That was a bad move.

Let me put it to you in another way. Imagine saying to your wife: "I'm totally committed to working together with you to make our move a great experience, and our new home one that you and the family will enjoy. As long as you acknowledge that we're moving to Nebraska, not California, it will be a 70's duplex instead of modern, and it will have 2 bedrooms total, instead of each of the kids getting their own room. Oh and no yard, I decided that was too much maintenance. Yes, I've already picked the house and bought it! Surprise! But you're definitely going to have input on paint colors, and perhaps choosing some of the furniture, if that's convenient. I'll do my best to make sure at least some of your tastes are accommodated!"

How do you think that works out? Divorce is how. And probably slapped in the face.

So now do you get it?

Telling the community after you've already signed the contract for Xenforo is too late. You should have solicited opinions before. People could have told you what they thought was important. People could have told you what they thought of Xenforo.

But you didn't care. You wanted maintenance to be easier for the new staff. That was the goal, you chose on that basis, and what the community wanted or thought about any issues was irrelevant. If it was otherwise, you would have asked before taking all those steps. Not after.

The important decisions have been made. All that's left now is paint and window dressing. The rules and the limitations are already set.

So no, "the rest is not up to us together to make it a success." It's up to the people who made the decision. It's on you.

I hope the forums survive and prosper. It will depend on the user experience. We'll see.

Mathew Anderson said:

TN Args said:

It always struck me as utterly bizarre.

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There isn't a default thread limit like the current forums.

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Excellent! Thank you

I have experience installing net new XenForo forums, migrating to XenForo and administering XenForo forums. I point that out specifically to highlight my understanding of the environment DPReview will be moving to.

ANY migration is going to create emotional reactions in the user base. Some will fall off. It’s a given. There isn’t much as an admin that you can do other than to be open about the reason for the change. As you’ve explained, an aging and difficult to maintain codebase is a valid reason for the change.

The reaction to losing threaded discussions may at the surface seem visceral. In my XenForo migration experience, it is the most difficult obstacle to user acceptance. In MY opinion, the threaded user interface, combined with the ability to change the title of a response within a thread, is the understated strength of the current environment. The lack of this capability is XenForo’s overwhelming weakness and inhibits its ability to scale. I simply don’t see it working well on a site as large as DPReview.

On one of the XenForo photography themed sites that I lightly moderate, displaying EXIF was problematic. The site isn’t large enough to justify the custom code required for that feature. I’m sure that won’t be the case on DPReview. Adding a custom plugin is great but will need to be maintained and tested as XenForo issues patches, upgrades, etc. We ultimately decided to encourage users to install Exify to reveal EXIF data and avoid custom code development.

Bottom line, as others have stated, the current threads view is the single distinguishing characteristic that defines DPReview. I sincerely hope that you and the XenForo team can develop this feature. With my understanding of the system, I fear it is a major effort that the current codebase is not capable of providing.

Good luck and fingers crossed.

[OzzModz] Post Comments enables threaded comments. I don't know if this is sufficient, but it seems to have the functionality some people want. So I guess it's possible to simply use this. It has been in development for almost 5 years.

Dale Baskin said:

I understand where you’re coming from and know how important the forum’s interface is to the community. I’ve been using DPReview’s forums since the beginning – long before I joined the team – and I’ll be the first to admit I really like the current software too.

That said, the reality is our forum software is a 25-year-old, custom-built, proprietary system. While it has served us well, maintaining it has become increasingly difficult and expensive.

Migrating to XenForo isn’t about change for change’s sake. It’s about giving the forums a reliable, supported foundation for the future that also opens the door to new features we’ve wanted to add for years. If staying on the old system long-term were viable, we would, but it’s not.

I know change can feel disruptive, but part of this move is about ensuring the forums remain healthy long-term. All we ask is that you give the new platform a chance and work with us to improve it. Even after it goes live, we'll continue refining it in response to community feedback. I can't promise we'll be able to implement every suggestion, but we'll do our damnedest.

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Dale,

This forum software has been operating very well for 25 years. It's been consistently the best forum experience out there, even with its quirks. Even the Amazon takeover didn't ruin it. A new team comes in, and now there are performance problems, maintenance problems, the system is called "aging" and difficult to maintain. So of course it's the software that's the problem...

I understand all about working on someone else's code. If the new staff doesn't have the knowledge, or training, or institutional memory, or numbers/availability to make maintaining the software more within their grasp, that is understandable. It's not even necessarily their fault. Taking over a system, especially a proprietary one, can be challenging. It's common for some consultants or new employees to believe they need to replace legacy systems they find, in order to make their mark, to be seen as improving things.

But if you were convinced replacing the forum software was an absolute necessity, then the right thing to do would have been to raise the issue with the community in advance. Which is not what you're doing. The decision has been made, and the contract has been signed. It's too late now.

You should have solicited input in advance. Found out what was important to the community members who are the life's blood of this forum. Learned what they thought was a necessity and what they thought needed to be changed. Learned what 3rd party forum experiences they loved, and which ones they hated.

Then, you should have searched for forum software that could have best met those needs.

You did the opposite. So I'm sorry, but to be blunt, this was handled badly. From a user-relations standpoint, from a standpoint of getting input and buy-in from stakeholders, it was bungled. Perhaps you don't think the forum users are stakeholders. That's a different problem.

We're stuck with the problems and limitations of Xenforo. Unless you have them under contract that they will deliver a threaded view, the expectation must be that there will not be one. Service providers are always at their most accommodating pre-launch. When you controlled the forum software, the only impediment to implementing changes was knowledge and effort. Now you will be dependent on making requests of a service provider. I'm sure what they provide will be easier for you to maintain. But will it be better, or as good, for anybody else?

DPR was the biggest photography forum on the net. The forum software was a big part of that. If this change being shoved down the throats of the user community means a lot of people leave, and with that a decline in the prestige of the brand and advertising revenue, then in the long run the ease of maintenance you gain is not really going to matter.

Cheers...

Without a threaded view, I sadly would likely spend less time in these forums. I really like being able to go directly to parts of a post that I've been following, and skipping those discussions I'm not interested in.

Mathew Anderson said:

There is some drag-and-drop functionality .

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Will the upload facility also allow you to paste image data straight from your clipboard to the server, like Facebook and others do? It's terrific if you can simply copy an image from your editor or from a different website, and paste it to upload it without having to save an intermediate local copy.

Giving up on threaded view borders on madness imho, but with the next two measures in place, the DPReview forums might still survive as a place to find and share information productively:

1) The forum software should not accept a new reply if it contains more quotes than new lines of text (quotes only serve as reminders of what you're responding to).

2) Enforce a maximum of 10 replies and 1 new topic per user, per day (stop the slowchat and low-effort posting).