Upcoming forum changes: investing in our community's future

Bob A L said:

TaSad1 said:

RemoteHorizons said:

In my experience, forums changing their user interface usually coincides with the death of the forum, and I’m sure this isn’t a coincidence.

DPReview has, by far, the nicest forum interface of all of the photography sites and to change it would be a huge mistake.

Please reconsider.

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"You can't teach an old dog new tricks"...

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And even if you can, many times the old dog just won't use the new tricks, much preferring the ones he is used to. You young folk can go whichever way you feel best at.

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I'm one of the old dogs...

Mathew Anderson said:

Ozzie SD said:

Mathew Anderson said:

Ozzie SD said:

Perhaps the wrong way:

Hey forum members ... surprise! We are changing the forum you have been using for 25 years to something completely different. We think you might like it!

Perhaps the right way:

Helle forum members! We are thinking about making changes to our forum. As our dear forum users and therefore clients, we would like you to think with us and get involved! We are very curious about your input! Should we make changes to our forum and if so, what would you like to see different? What do you like about the current style and usability? And what could be better? How can we improve your experience? Please provide us your input and together we will lift this forum to a new and better level for the next coming 25 years.

But hey ... who am I to say ...

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Hi Ozzie!

The forum update is just the surface announcement. As you get a chance to use it yourselves, we will be continuing to take feedback and adjusting as much as possible, just like you are suggesting here.

We plan to have a dedicated section in the update exactly for this purpose, to gather first impressions, general feedback, and issues and concerns.

If you have had interest in the past to improve the current forums in some way, please feel free to voice it. Now that you know what software the forums are moving to, we can work with you to adjust as much as possible in advance as well.

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Hi Mathew,

What I try to point out is that announcing you are going to change something that has been successfully used for 25 years, might not be the appropriate route. It might scare people away. A change like this should start with a big WHY and getting the users involved to answer that question ON BEFOREHAND. Right now you are announcing that big changes are about to occur while the result of the suggested changes has not been investigated and therefore can't be predicted.

First thing you should investigate is IF the forum users are in need of a new forum. Next step should be to investigate what kind of changes should be made.
There is a saying: never change a winning team. Right now you are about to change something based on ... based on what? On suspicions that things might improve. But what if the target group won't like the new changes? What if you start significantly loosing forum users?

Don't get me wrong. I am definitely not against improving this forum, but my opinion is that you should get users involved and have a say before you start making changes. If not, the outcome may not match your goal and intentions.

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We totally agree with you on working together to make it a great experience, especially since it's new and a change from over 25 years of past use. This is why we're announcing it to just the core forum community first, so we can discuss with you and take in your recommendations and suggestions as we can make them.

As Dale tried to express, we have to move to a new forum solution and why we are announcing it to now instead of just implementing it in surprise. The rest is up to us together to make a success. Our entire team is appreciative of your feedback here.

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As I tried to explain earlier, you are presenting it as a given fact. A better approach would have been to involve users on beforehand and ask for their needs.


For now my advise to you would be:
1) Make a new thread in Open talk forum, called: "FORUM CHANGE: we need your input!"
2) Describe each step of what you are planning to do. For example: We are planning to change the forum overview to this layout. Or, this is what a forum post will look like. Use a demo sketch (don't build anything yet).
3) Have users respond to the proposal made in step 2. Based on user input make changes if required until users are satisfied and happy.


Keep repeating steps 2 and 3 until you have the full picture of what the users want. After all input is gathered and processed, start building the new forum.


Doing it like this:
1) Gets users involved and have their voices heard.
2) You will be building an application that will be accepted and appreciated by your current user base. It will keep users happy, and it will prevent making changes and extra costs afterwards. Win win.

Good luck.

Ok, I'll cross my fingers and hope it does not look like that Mac Rumors forum, that you can customize it to look more like this, with a threaded view, because that looks bad.

I read a couple of comments about requiring forum members to upload images to a gallery or something. I really hope that's not on the agenda. If some readers think they have to see a person's photographic credentials before they trust what he says, that's their problem. Good photographers don't necessarily know it all, and mediocre photographers are not necessarily clueless.

Bob A L said:

jalywol said:

Ozzie SD said:

What I try to point out is that announcing you are going to change something that has been successfully used for 25 years, might not be the appropriate route. It might scare people away. A change like this should start with a big WHY and getting the users involved to answer that question ON BEFOREHAND. Right now you are announcing that big changes are about to occur while the result of the suggested changes has not been investigated and therefore can't be predicted.

First thing you should investigate is IF the forum users are in need of a new forum. Next step should be to investigate what kind of changes should be made.
There is a saying: never change a winning team. Right now you are about to change something based on ... based on what? On suspicions that things might improve. But what if the target group won't like the new changes? What if you start significantly loosing forum users?

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I going to bet this is based on three things:

1. Desire to attract a younger demographic to the site
2. Outsourcing the site design IT work from in-house to out. I would imagine this saves a lot of staff $ as it makes the site design and maintenance someone else's headache.
3. Having no way to update the current forums to include newer features without rewriting the whole thing.

Bob A L said:

Don't get me wrong. I am definitely not against improving this forum, but my opinion is that you should get users involved and have a say before you start making changes. If not, the outcome may not match your goal and intentions.

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I think that involving the community before this was a fait accompli might have been better than just plopping it down as "this is coming, deal with it", tied up with a cheerful announcement bow and ribbon . But, I suppose we shall see.

The one thing I think they might need to consider, though, is that us creaky old folks who populate this forum are still its primary users, and if they gin up the site to be most palatable to the youngest demographic, they may end up losing on all sides. So, I think they should consider throwing us dinosaurs a bone, in terms of types of site layout and accessibility, such as keeping the threaded views, as they march forward into the (young) future.

-J

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Excellent note about us cranky old folks. I am most definitely in this group, and can vouch for how many of us hate changing how we are doing things almost as habit and will quickly rebel when presented with change. I will use my old pc until it absolutely will not function before I will change operating systems. We are not necessarily dummies, but we are probably slower to reprogram than younger folk. It took me years to quit going for the clutch pedal in my new fangled automatic transmission cars for instance and still watch television via feed from my antenna at my home. We'll just have to see how this goes.

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I tend to shy away from big changes too, I totally get it. Until recently, I had kept a MS-DOS exclusive computer for old games I could run on it (it broke ). I'm one of those gamers who likes to play the classics. Same for TV shows and movies. I grew up with my dad watching shows like Andy Griffith, Beverly Hill Billies, etc. I still love them and wouldn't trade them for most new shows these days... but some of the new shows are good and I've warmed up to them.

XenForo is a big project that I had to jump into it mid-swim with the team, so to speak. I know the entire DPR team wants this to work for you all though, because we have to make the change, but also because of the benefits and how it can help us grow the community. Yes, for new audience members, but most importantly for all of you.

Please let me know what you need and are interested in learning to help in this transition. Is it descriptions of new features, images of the current design, ideas you want to propose to improve previous limitations that we can adjust in XenForo, reassurance of something, a chat with the DPR team, etc. If possible, we want it to be an exciting update that gives added value to all of you, but we'll settle for "this is fine" if we can make that happen in the end.

To note, we'll have more updates to the wider community coming up, and more communications like these individual post replies, before XenForo actually launches.

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

musicshootr said:

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

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Agreed, this is why we're posting this letter to you now. While some things, like XenForo itself, are baked in and what is launching, some of the look and how things flow are still up for consideration.

I'll see if we can provide some previews of the look of the forums and see what you all think. We'll improve what we can, and continue to do so after it launches.

One thing to note, the forums are just that... forums. This isn't something completely different. The style will look familiar in part with the colors and such that you are generally used to. Login buttons, profile view, all of that still exists. It's not that much different in a sense. The XenForo team has shown a lot of commitment to working with us to adapt the platform to DPReview's specific needs as much as possible.

Stan Disbrow said:

Hi,

We will lose many folks with the loss of threaded mode.

i ignore many, what I call rabbit holes, using it. And also participate in as many as I ignore while not following the main thread further.

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Threaded View is invaluable in this regard. Flat view makes conversations impossible to follow once there are more than 20 or so posts.

Stan Disbrow said:

Threaded mode also means less quoting is required to separate posts which are in different subthreads. That makes for much easier reading.

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Yes. With Threaded View there is not so much need to quote. The context is in the parent post.

However with Flat view and the relatively large proportion of posters who don't quote, it becomes impossible to know which post they are referring to. And the thread quickly becomes a jumbled mess.

Stan Disbrow said:

There is another forum, one created when this site was shutting down. And they have trouble gaining users. My own lack of participation is due to there being no threaded mode.

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Yes and that will keep them with a small core base until they make the change. But the decision was made to stick with the chosen forum software.

To me, Flat View equates to Flat Earthers. First there were the Bulletin Boards - Flat View only. Then some developers came up with Threaded View and everyone was happy.

Now there are these weird ideas that we know better and they throw out the good stuff and revert to the dinosaur age. I just don't get it...

Stan Disbrow said:

Stan

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BryanHL said:

I can understand your motivations for making a change.

However:

It is such a backwards step to go to FLAT VIEW ONLY.

Threaded view is imperative in threads that have lots of responses and where sub-threads about certain points evolve.

With Flat View IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to follow the conversation without wasting heaps of time scrolling up and down trying to work out who replied to what comment. And then there are those that make comments without quoting - to which post were they referring??? With threaded view it is clear. Flat view it just becomes a jumbled mess!!!

When DPR was going to close, I joined one of the new emergent forums. It didn't use Xenforo but was similarly Flat View only. All the users continually complained - "We need Threaded View".

Max image size: Xenforo has a max image size of 1600 x 1600 px. Not being able to view an image in its native size means you just can't see the detail in those really good images. Then you might as well have just used a smartphone. What's the point of having a good capable camera when you can't showcase the quality of your images???

The Xenforo maintainers have a really stubborn attitude to this max image size. They speak as if "Who would want more than 1MP"? Well Bill Gates once said "Who needs more than 640KB"? Look at windows now. 16GB minimum.

This may be a gear oriented site but there are still many who like to showcase their results. I am also on a Xenforo site. I find myself sometimes cropping in really tight so that people can see the detail - makes a mockery of composition when you have to cut out most of the background.

I am rather surprised that the decision was made without forum member input. I know there will always be some dissatisfied no matter what choice you make. But I would have thought getting a consensus first would have been the smarter move....

Not happy jan...

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This is why we're posting the announcement now, to gain your input into what we can change with it both before it launches and as you get used to it. The XenForo team has shown a lot of commitment to working with us to adapt the platform to DPReview's specific needs as much as possible.

Fortunately, we can set the size much greater. We were thinking 15000 x 15000 and a file size of perhaps 50MB. Is that sufficient for most of your image needs?

Mathew Anderson said:

musicshootr said:

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

Click to expand...

Agreed, this is why we're posting this letter to you now. While some things, like XenForo itself, are baked in and what is launching, some of the look and how things flow are still up for consideration.

I'll see if we can provide some previews of the look of the forums and see what you all think. We'll improve what we can, and continue to do so after it launches.

One thing to note, the forums are just that... forums.

Click to expand...

A couch is just a couch ... but for someone who has been sitting on that couch for 25 years it is not 'just' a couch. It is a trusted place to come back to every day. Replacing that couch one day without asking, might the owner have looking for another couch.

I understand you guys want to improve, but do it the right way. Saying this for your own benefits.

Mathew Anderson said:

This isn't something completely different. The style will look familiar in part with the colors and such that you are generally used to. Login buttons, profile view, all of that still exists. It's not that much different in a sense. The XenForo team has shown a lot of commitment to working with us to adapt the platform to DPReview's specific needs.

Click to expand...

Mathew Anderson said:

musicshootr said:

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

Click to expand...

Agreed, this is why we're posting this letter to you now. While some things, like XenForo itself, are baked in and what is launching, some of the look and how things flow are still up for consideration.

I'll see if we can provide some previews of the look of the forums and see what you all think. We'll improve what we can, and continue to do so after it launches.

One thing to note, the forums are just that... forums. This isn't something completely different. The style will look familiar in part with the colors and such that you are generally used to. Login buttons, profile view, all of that still exists. It's not that much different in a sense.

Click to expand...

This is the kind of decision you should have solicited feedback about before committing to it, and the fact that you all didn't means you don't actually value our feedback. If you did, you wouldn't have chosen a flat view only, third party solution that has no demonstrable ability to maintain a forum as old or as valuable as the one we have here. "We've committed to the overarching software package which comes with its own baked in functionality and limitations, but you can help us choose the colors, I guess" is not the same as soliciting feedback about how it actually works, which is the part we as the userbase will be engaging with every day.

Ozzie SD said:

Mathew Anderson said:

musicshootr said:

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

Click to expand...

Agreed, this is why we're posting this letter to you now. While some things, like XenForo itself, are baked in and what is launching, some of the look and how things flow are still up for consideration.

I'll see if we can provide some previews of the look of the forums and see what you all think. We'll improve what we can, and continue to do so after it launches.

One thing to note, the forums are just that... forums.

Click to expand...

A couch is just a couch ... but for someone who has been sitting on that couch for 25 years it is not 'just' a couch. It is a trusted place to come back to every day. Replacing that couch one day without asking, might the owner have looking for another couch.

I understand you guys want to improve, but do it the right way. Saying this for your own benefits.

Ozzie SD said:

This isn't something completely different. The style will look familiar in part with the colors and such that you are generally used to. Login buttons, profile view, all of that still exists. It's not that much different in a sense.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It's not just improving, we have to do this for the community to not just survive but to grow, Better to have a different larger couch than no couch at all, right?

Mathew Anderson said:

BryanHL said:

I can understand your motivations for making a change.

However:

It is such a backwards step to go to FLAT VIEW ONLY.

Threaded view is imperative in threads that have lots of responses and where sub-threads about certain points evolve.

With Flat View IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to follow the conversation without wasting heaps of time scrolling up and down trying to work out who replied to what comment. And then there are those that make comments without quoting - to which post were they referring??? With threaded view it is clear. Flat view it just becomes a jumbled mess!!!

When DPR was going to close, I joined one of the new emergent forums. It didn't use Xenforo but was similarly Flat View only. All the users continually complained - "We need Threaded View".

Max image size: Xenforo has a max image size of 1600 x 1600 px. Not being able to view an image in its native size means you just can't see the detail in those really good images. Then you might as well have just used a smartphone. What's the point of having a good capable camera when you can't showcase the quality of your images???

The Xenforo maintainers have a really stubborn attitude to this max image size. They speak as if "Who would want more than 1MP"? Well Bill Gates once said "Who needs more than 640KB"? Look at windows now. 16GB minimum.

This may be a gear oriented site but there are still many who like to showcase their results. I am also on a Xenforo site. I find myself sometimes cropping in really tight so that people can see the detail - makes a mockery of composition when you have to cut out most of the background.

I am rather surprised that the decision was made without forum member input. I know there will always be some dissatisfied no matter what choice you make. But I would have thought getting a consensus first would have been the smarter move....

Not happy jan...

Click to expand...

This is why we're posting the announcement now, to gain your input into what we can change with it both before it launches and as you get used to it.

Fortunately, we can set the size much greater. We were thinking 15000 x 15000 and a file size of perhaps 50MB. Is that sufficient for most of your image needs?

Click to expand...

Thanks for replying.

It is. 50MB is heaps for me (dunno about MF people)

But you ignored the main part of my post regarding Threaded View.

I just don't think you appreciate the inconvenience that Flat View entails in a discussion forum.

Read through the comments so far. There are some posts on the same point from experienced users. You WILL lose a lot of current members once they realise it is impossible to follow a conversation as happens in Flat View.

You say your decision is made - "baked in". I just hope that you can see a bit of common sense here and are actually able to step back and re-consider.

Mathew Anderson said:

Ozzie SD said:

Mathew Anderson said:

musicshootr said:

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

Click to expand...

Agreed, this is why we're posting this letter to you now. While some things, like XenForo itself, are baked in and what is launching, some of the look and how things flow are still up for consideration.

I'll see if we can provide some previews of the look of the forums and see what you all think. We'll improve what we can, and continue to do so after it launches.

One thing to note, the forums are just that... forums.

Click to expand...

A couch is just a couch ... but for someone who has been sitting on that couch for 25 years it is not 'just' a couch. It is a trusted place to come back to every day. Replacing that couch one day without asking, might the owner have looking for another couch.

I understand you guys want to improve, but do it the right way. Saying this for your own benefits.

Mathew Anderson said:

This isn't something completely different. The style will look familiar in part with the colors and such that you are generally used to. Login buttons, profile view, all of that still exists. It's not that much different in a sense.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

It's not just improving, we have to do this for the community to not just survive but to grow, Better to have a different larger couch than no couch at all, right?

Click to expand...

That depends, if it is a couch no one wants to sit on ... ;-)

I think I made my point. Here you can read my advice how to get the users involved.

Can you confirm the new intended forum only enables flat view and not threaded view? Is that information correct? Or is threaded view available as well?

BryanHL said:

Mathew Anderson said:

BryanHL said:

I can understand your motivations for making a change.

However:

It is such a backwards step to go to FLAT VIEW ONLY.

Threaded view is imperative in threads that have lots of responses and where sub-threads about certain points evolve.

With Flat View IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to follow the conversation without wasting heaps of time scrolling up and down trying to work out who replied to what comment. And then there are those that make comments without quoting - to which post were they referring??? With threaded view it is clear. Flat view it just becomes a jumbled mess!!!

When DPR was going to close, I joined one of the new emergent forums. It didn't use Xenforo but was similarly Flat View only. All the users continually complained - "We need Threaded View".

Max image size: Xenforo has a max image size of 1600 x 1600 px. Not being able to view an image in its native size means you just can't see the detail in those really good images. Then you might as well have just used a smartphone. What's the point of having a good capable camera when you can't showcase the quality of your images???

The Xenforo maintainers have a really stubborn attitude to this max image size. They speak as if "Who would want more than 1MP"? Well Bill Gates once said "Who needs more than 640KB"? Look at windows now. 16GB minimum.

This may be a gear oriented site but there are still many who like to showcase their results. I am also on a Xenforo site. I find myself sometimes cropping in really tight so that people can see the detail - makes a mockery of composition when you have to cut out most of the background.

I am rather surprised that the decision was made without forum member input. I know there will always be some dissatisfied no matter what choice you make. But I would have thought getting a consensus first would have been the smarter move....

Not happy jan...

Click to expand...

This is why we're posting the announcement now, to gain your input into what we can change with it both before it launches and as you get used to it.

Fortunately, we can set the size much greater. We were thinking 15000 x 15000 and a file size of perhaps 50MB. Is that sufficient for most of your image needs?

Click to expand...

Thanks for replying.

It is. 50MB is heaps for me (dunno about MF people)

But you ignored the main part of my post regarding Threaded View.

I just don't think you appreciate the inconvenience that Flat View entails in a discussion forum.

Read through the comments so far. There are some posts on the same point from experienced users. You WILL lose a lot of current members once they realise it is impossible to follow a conversation as happens in Flat View.

You say your decision is made - "baked in". I just hope that you can see a bit of common sense here and are actually able to step back and re-consider.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry. I didn't intend to ignore it; there's just a lot to respond to right now. We would have liked to keep it because some folks like using it. The benefits are not lost on us, certainly with the team that's been here for many years. I'm new to the community, but I appreciate it, too.

Mathew Anderson said:

BryanHL said:

Mathew Anderson said:

BryanHL said:

I can understand your motivations for making a change.

However:

It is such a backwards step to go to FLAT VIEW ONLY.

Threaded view is imperative in threads that have lots of responses and where sub-threads about certain points evolve.

With Flat View IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to follow the conversation without wasting heaps of time scrolling up and down trying to work out who replied to what comment. And then there are those that make comments without quoting - to which post were they referring??? With threaded view it is clear. Flat view it just becomes a jumbled mess!!!

When DPR was going to close, I joined one of the new emergent forums. It didn't use Xenforo but was similarly Flat View only. All the users continually complained - "We need Threaded View".

Max image size: Xenforo has a max image size of 1600 x 1600 px. Not being able to view an image in its native size means you just can't see the detail in those really good images. Then you might as well have just used a smartphone. What's the point of having a good capable camera when you can't showcase the quality of your images???

The Xenforo maintainers have a really stubborn attitude to this max image size. They speak as if "Who would want more than 1MP"? Well Bill Gates once said "Who needs more than 640KB"? Look at windows now. 16GB minimum.

This may be a gear oriented site but there are still many who like to showcase their results. I am also on a Xenforo site. I find myself sometimes cropping in really tight so that people can see the detail - makes a mockery of composition when you have to cut out most of the background.

I am rather surprised that the decision was made without forum member input. I know there will always be some dissatisfied no matter what choice you make. But I would have thought getting a consensus first would have been the smarter move....

Not happy jan...

Click to expand...

This is why we're posting the announcement now, to gain your input into what we can change with it both before it launches and as you get used to it.

Fortunately, we can set the size much greater. We were thinking 15000 x 15000 and a file size of perhaps 50MB. Is that sufficient for most of your image needs?

Click to expand...

Thanks for replying.

It is. 50MB is heaps for me (dunno about MF people)

But you ignored the main part of my post regarding Threaded View.

I just don't think you appreciate the inconvenience that Flat View entails in a discussion forum.

Read through the comments so far. There are some posts on the same point from experienced users. You WILL lose a lot of current members once they realise it is impossible to follow a conversation as happens in Flat View.

You say your decision is made - "baked in". I just hope that you can see a bit of common sense here and are actually able to step back and re-consider.

Click to expand...

I'm sorry, I didn't intend to ignore it, there's just a lot to respond to right now. In many ways, we would have liked to keep it because some folks like using it. The benefits are not lost on us, certainly with the team that's been here for many years. I'm new to the community, but I appreciate it too.

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This is the insidious thing that third party vendors do. They promise to offer a cheaper, faster, more streamlined, easier-to-use experience that both you and your users will like more than whatever you currently have. They convince you that features you and your users like that their software cannot provide are worthy sacrifices to move to their system, because think of the convenience and all of the problems the new system is (supposedly) going to fix. But to quote Jeff Rosenstock, those conveniences leave cavities that can't get filled because you didn't notice. Once you move to the new system, the old system is gone, so anything sacrificed is gone forever. No one likes that - no one likes features they use going away because "the new way is easier." And, most often, the new way isn't actually better or easier to use! Listen to the forum members up-thread who state that they've used XenForo forums before and found them frustrating to use. Whatever XenForo has convinced you all is going to be the user experience is almost guaranteed to be 25 to 50 percent worse in reality, because XenForo is trying to sell you something.

I cannot be convinced that cutting off features people use and eliminating or perma-archiving the site's back catalogue of posts, while permanently ending the site's self-sufficiency to switch to a third-party vendor, is worth whatever marginal improvement in manageability XenForo supposedly offers.

Mathew Anderson said:

drynn said:

"While not every feature could be carried over..."

Would be useful to be told which features will not be carried over.

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It’s mostly changes to how posts and forum sections are organized. For example, how posts are viewed in a thread is more consistent and simplified between all users. The majority of other changes are either entirely new features or improvements on existing ones.

Visit sites like bcgforums.com and macrumors.com to get a rough idea of how the forum layout works before you can see how we’ve implemented it.

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There are some accomplished photogs posting there with a reasonably large community - no where near as big as DPR though.

Visit it and see. Spiffy enough but Xenforo has its issues. It is not up 9999. I would say about 999 at best. There have been two outages (one for a full day) in the nearly a year I have been there. The admins of Cameraderie are at the mercy of the Xenforo maintainers. The messages seem odd and make me wonder about the underlying architecture of Xenforo...

BryanHL said:

I can understand your motivations for making a change.

However:

It is such a backwards step to go to FLAT VIEW ONLY.

Threaded view is imperative in threads that have lots of responses and where sub-threads about certain points evolve.

With Flat View IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to follow the conversation without wasting heaps of time scrolling up and down trying to work out who replied to what comment. And then there are those that make comments without quoting - to which post were they referring??? With threaded view it is clear. Flat view it just becomes a jumbled mess!!!

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Hi Bryan, I can certainly understand your concern over the default flat view display of XenForo forums. I've been on DPR since 2013 and am personally a fan of the threaded display option here.

That said, I'm a dedicated wildlife and bird photographer. For about 6 months, I've been active on Steve Perry's (the wildlife photog; not the rock vocalist) Backcountry Gallery forum, which is built on the XenForo platform.

It did take some time for me to adjust to a flat view thread display. However, now that I'm used to it, flat view doesn't prevent me from following discussions, their evolution, and staying involved in the topics that interest me. Obviously, I don't speak for anybody other than myself. However, I would encourage you to take Dale's ask to heart: give the new site a try when it goes public, see what you think, and most definitely offer your feedback on the user experience once you've had some time to test drive it.

I'm a co-mod in the Fujifilm X System forum and, along with the other forum moderators and DPR staff, have been exploring and kicking the tires on a test environment version of the new DPR site. I find the overall design, organization, and user interface to be very familiar.

Some of the new features that I like include group chat, more options for filtering displayed messages, and more emoji options when reacting to a message.

I know Dale and the DPR team want to create more platforms for featuring member content. Moderators will have the ability to pin posts atop a forum page. There are also built-in tools on a XenForo site making it easy for a member to peruse recently uploaded images, to react and comment on those images. This is something I really like about the Backcountry Gallery forums and is a feature I believe will add a nice element of member interactivity to the DPR experience.

BryanHL said:

When DPR was going to close, I joined one of the new emergent forums. It didn't use Xenforo but was similarly Flat View only. All the users continually complained - "We need Threaded View".

Max image size: Xenforo has a max image size of 1600 x 1600 px. Not being able to view an image in its native size means you just can't see the detail in those really good images. Then you might as well have just used a smartphone. What's the point of having a good capable camera when you can't showcase the quality of your images???

Click to expand...

I can share that the test environment allows much larger images than 1600 x 1600 pixels to be uploaded. I've personally uploaded a 13986 x 4847 pixel JPEG of a stitched pano. The file is 21.3MB in size. I've also test uploaded an 8256 x 5504 JPEG (9.3MB) from a processed Z9 file. The image quality at screen resolution is very good. Viewed at 100%, the images display at about 80% of the quality I see when viewing photos at 100% in LrC.

BryanHL said:

The Xenforo maintainers have a really stubborn attitude to this max image size. They speak as if "Who would want more than 1MP"? Well Bill Gates once said "Who needs more than 640KB"? Look at windows now. 16GB minimum.

This may be a gear oriented site but there are still many who like to showcase their results. I am also on a Xenforo site. I find myself sometimes cropping in really tight so that people can see the detail - makes a mockery of composition when you have to cut out most of the background.

I am rather surprised that the decision was made without forum member input. I know there will always be some dissatisfied no matter what choice you make. But I would have thought getting a consensus first would have been the smarter move....

Not happy jan...

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It can be easy to think of Dale, Scott, Mathew and DPR staff only as administrators of the site. As Dale mentioned in a recent post, he was a member long before he joined the professional staff at DPR. Mathew applied for and came to DPR, in part, because of his experience as a member. Working with them on this project, I have come to appreciate their commitment to making DPR better prepared for a future it has the potential to enjoy.

Yes, the first 25+ years for DPR have been remarkable. This site is among the most trusted sources on the web. Digital photography has undergone so much change over the last decade, as have the practitioners of this medium. When Dale says the forums need a new platform to enable new content and user experiences, I believe him. The new site will take some getting used to, but it will also open new doors to how members are able to interact with the site and each other.

I'm gonna make the same ask as Dale. Let's give the new site a chance, test drive it for a bit, and offer candid & constructive feedback on how it can be better. If we come together to help make this migration a success, that will be something we all can take pride in.

Bill Ferris said:

BryanHL said:

I can understand your motivations for making a change.

However:

It is such a backwards step to go to FLAT VIEW ONLY.

Threaded view is imperative in threads that have lots of responses and where sub-threads about certain points evolve.

With Flat View IT IS IMPOSSIBLE to follow the conversation without wasting heaps of time scrolling up and down trying to work out who replied to what comment. And then there are those that make comments without quoting - to which post were they referring??? With threaded view it is clear. Flat view it just becomes a jumbled mess!!!

Click to expand...

Hi Bryan, I can certainly understand your concern over the default flat view display of XenForo forums. I've been on DPR since 2013 and am personally a fan of the threaded display option here.

That said, I'm a dedicated wildlife and bird photographer. For about 6 months, I've been active on Steve Perry's (the wildlife photog; not the rock vocalist) Backcountry Gallery forum, which is built on the XenForo platform.

It did take some time for me to adjust to a flat view thread display. However, now that I'm used to it, flat view doesn't prevent me from following discussions, their evolution, and staying involved in the topics that interest me. Obviously, I don't speak for anybody other than myself. However, I would encourage you to take Dale's ask to heart: give the new site a try when it goes public, see what you think, and most definitely offer your feedback on the user experience once you've had some time to test drive it.

I'm a co-mod in the Fujifilm X System forum and, along with the other forum moderators and DPR staff, have been exploring and kicking the tires on a test environment version of the new DPR site. I find the overall design, organization, and user interface to be very familiar.

Click to expand...

So, there already is a test site? This hurts. So we as users are not that involved after all. Decisions have been made and we have to deal with it. This is not the way to go if you ask me. Especially reading that something essential as threaded view will not be incorporated in the new forum. But what can I say? apparently things have been decided for us. Well, it has been a nice time on dpreview.com.

Bill Ferris said:

Some of the new features that I like include group chat, more options for filtering displayed messages, and more emoji options when reacting to a message.

I know Dale and the DPR team want to create more platforms for featuring member content. Moderators will have the ability to pin posts atop a forum page. There are also built-in tools on a XenForo site making it easy for a member to peruse recently uploaded images, to react and comment on those images. This is something I really like about the Backcountry Gallery forums and is a feature I believe will add a nice element of member interactivity to the DPR experience.

Bill Ferris said:

When DPR was going to close, I joined one of the new emergent forums. It didn't use Xenforo but was similarly Flat View only. All the users continually complained - "We need Threaded View".

Max image size: Xenforo has a max image size of 1600 x 1600 px. Not being able to view an image in its native size means you just can't see the detail in those really good images. Then you might as well have just used a smartphone. What's the point of having a good capable camera when you can't showcase the quality of your images???

Click to expand...

I can share that the test environment allows much larger images than 1600 x 1600 pixels to be uploaded. I've personally uploaded a 13986 x 4847 pixel JPEG of a stitched pano. The file is 21.3MB in size. I've also test uploaded an 8256 x 5504 JPEG (9.3MB) from a processed Z9 file. The image quality at screen resolution is very good. Viewed at 100%, the images display at about 80% of the quality I see when viewing photos at 100% in LrC.

Bill Ferris said:

The Xenforo maintainers have a really stubborn attitude to this max image size. They speak as if "Who would want more than 1MP"? Well Bill Gates once said "Who needs more than 640KB"? Look at windows now. 16GB minimum.

This may be a gear oriented site but there are still many who like to showcase their results. I am also on a Xenforo site. I find myself sometimes cropping in really tight so that people can see the detail - makes a mockery of composition when you have to cut out most of the background.

I am rather surprised that the decision was made without forum member input. I know there will always be some dissatisfied no matter what choice you make. But I would have thought getting a consensus first would have been the smarter move....

Not happy jan...

Click to expand...

It can be easy to think of Dale, Scott, Mathew and DPR staff only as administrators of the site. As Dale mentioned in a recent post, he was a member long before he joined the professional staff at DPR. Mathew applied for and came to DPR, in part, because of his experience as a member. Working with them on this project, I have come to appreciate their commitment to making DPR better prepared for a future it has the potential to enjoy.

Yes, the first 25+ years for DPR have been remarkable. This site is among the most trusted sources on the web. Digital photography has undergone so much change over the last decade, as have the practitioners of this medium. When Dale says the forums need a new platform to enable new content and user experiences, I believe him. The new site will take some getting used to, but it will also open new doors to how members are able to interact with the site and each other.

I'm gonna make the same ask as Dale. Let's give the new site a chance, test drive it for a bit, and offer candid & constructive feedback on how it can be better. If we come together to help make this migration a success, that will be something we all can take pride in.

Click to expand...

Ozzie SD said:

Mathew Anderson said:

Ozzie SD said:

Mathew Anderson said:

musicshootr said:

I emphatically agree with Ozzie here. Launching a whole new system without soliciting and incorporating feedback is a recipe for people to leave. Include us in the process and don't ignore our comments when we point out the issues with your plan. DPR has had a forum 14 years longer than XenForo has even been a company. Why would you entrust a 25-year history of contributions to a company who can't even prove that they've held onto a piece of content that long? This is foolhardy, and making the continued existence of the forum beholden to whatever XenForo costs in the future is a great way to potentially have it cost too much in the future to have forums at all.

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Agreed, this is why we're posting this letter to you now. While some things, like XenForo itself, are baked in and what is launching, some of the look and how things flow are still up for consideration.

I'll see if we can provide some previews of the look of the forums and see what you all think. We'll improve what we can, and continue to do so after it launches.

One thing to note, the forums are just that... forums.

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A couch is just a couch ... but for someone who has been sitting on that couch for 25 years it is not 'just' a couch. It is a trusted place to come back to every day. Replacing that couch one day without asking, might the owner have looking for another couch.

I understand you guys want to improve, but do it the right way. Saying this for your own benefits.

Ozzie SD said:

This isn't something completely different. The style will look familiar in part with the colors and such that you are generally used to. Login buttons, profile view, all of that still exists. It's not that much different in a sense.

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It's not just improving, we have to do this for the community to not just survive but to grow, Better to have a different larger couch than no couch at all, right?

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That depends, if it is a couch no one wants to sit on ... ;-)

I think I made my point. Here you can read my advice how to get the users involved.

Can you confirm the new intended forum only enables flat view and not threaded view? Is that information correct? Or is threaded view available as well?

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Thanks for the link, noted! And agreed, point taken .

Correct, XenForo currently does not support what we know of as Threaded View, but we have made it clear to their team that it is a feature that our team and community feels is worth having. It may be possible in the future to work with them to make it happen, but this is still uncertain. The XenForo team has shown a lot of commitment to working with us to adapt the platform to DPReview's specific needs as much as possible so far.