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Me bewildered - What a mess digital color is!

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I'm doing a long running project to photograph the round tower churches of east anglia (there are (maybe) 187), round tower churches are not found much outside this region. I decided (for no particular sensible reason) to photograph them in B&W infrared, but I take my colour camera as well. Many of these churches have these little faces, usually under the ends of arches. They are small, maybe just two or three inches across and for some reason I seem to find them the most interesting parts of the architecture.

Here's a quick stab at applying my usual editing approach to this image. I note that there was insufficient depth of field at 300mm. But I was struggling for light at ISO1600 handheld.

816c8208544f4c4086a1aac0025a30e3.jpg


--
2024: Awarded Royal Photographic Society LRPS Distinction
Photo of the day: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/photo-of-the-day-2025/
Website: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/
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Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)
 
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DavidMillier said:
I seemed to somehow post that twice when it was meant to be an edit of the first post!
Click to expand...
Ah, to be sure, to be sure - as we here in Ireland would say :-)

Seriously thought, thanks for the additional information and your "quick stab" at applying your usual editing approach to the image - because that really does help complete the story.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
 
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Hi,

No worries. That has happened to me a few times. Hit Edit, then edit, then post and it winds up as a reply to myself. I just chuckle and move on. ;)

Stan
 
Hi,

Ah. The 1Ds. That was quite popular back when. And with good reason. I bought one as well. With only two Canon zoom lenses mostly for use with the companion 1D I bought at the same time. I used Nikon manual focus primes with the 1Ds. The adapter is still here.

2000-2003 saw a flurry of buying and selling for me. Nikon E2, E3, D1, D1H, D1X and D2H. Canon 1D and 1Ds. Kodak 460, 520, 560, 620x, 660c, 660m, 720x, 760c and ProBack. What a mess now that I list it out.

Some of all that was for resolution reasons. But color differences also. Which brings it all in line with the main topic of this post. There were noticeable differences in color response between Nikon, Canon and Kodak. And more subtle differences within each brand, by model. And also when processing using OEM software as well as Photoshop.

On top of that, Photoshop kept changing. Was PS 4 for the Kodak 460. But then it went to 6 when they added ACR. Then 7, then 8, and color response changed with each. The best that I had for color was when using Kodak's own PhotoDesk software, but that was only for their cameras, of course.

So, yes. Color is a mess of sorts. I will say that it is nowhere near the mess today as ot was in 2000-2003. Happily.

Stan

--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
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Is there someone left here who considers color vaguely related to what we see?

I am starting to understand that nowadays photography has become an entirely creative discipline ;)
 
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If you stand in one spot all day and just watch, every thing will change colour on a continuous basis. Shoot during the Blue hour, shoot during the Golden Hour, shoot whenever and the colours will be different. So which is the correct colour?



Simple: if you are not a pro with someone calling the shots, it’s what you prefer.
emdundronald said:
Is there someone left here who considers color vaguely related to what we see?

I am starting to understand that nowadays photography has become an entirely creative discipline ;)
Click to expand...
 
emdundronald said:
Is there someone left here who considers color vaguely related to what we see?

I am starting to understand that nowadays photography has become an entirely creative discipline ;)
Click to expand...
With modern cameras, we have ways to capture color more accurately than we ever could with color film.
 
JimKasson said:
emdundronald said:
Is there someone left here who considers color vaguely related to what we see?

I am starting to understand that nowadays photography has become an entirely creative discipline ;)
Click to expand...
With modern cameras, we have ways to capture color more accurately than we ever could with color film.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I remember when I was an ICC member, Jack Holm walked in from HP and he explained he had measured this scene with a tele-radiometer so he could do "scene referred" color rendering. whatever that means .e. Also some guys in Paris used a cryogenic multispectral sensor setup ripped from a satellite to scan some painting in the Louvre which someone thought important enough to preserve. At least that one let you view the picture in any light you chose.

Now I'm sure that's the "we" you refer to. Smart competent people with knowledge about colorimetry, physics, psychology etc, the best of hardware, who can talk in an erudite way about Luther's condition and metqmeric color matches, and who make me feel like I'm at an Einstein imitator's convention. But let's talk about all those magazine images I see. Ouch. I quite accept that YOU can provide "accurate" or "pleasing" color, but I wonder why out there I see so little of either of the above?

Edmund

--
Ouch, my name is mistyped - my name is Edmund Ronald
http://instagram.com/edmundronald
 
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Hi,

The correct color is whatever the Pantone Matching System shows you on the color swatch card for the PMS number in question. Under 5000 degree Kelvin lighting.

Anything else is a crap shoot with Metamerism. Which is what you notice between various hours and such.

And, I know of people who got that wrong and it cost them millions of dollars.

Stan
 
Hi,

I haven't had much of a digital color complaint since cameras allowed Raw capture and I could easily correct white balance with a grey card in the first image.

Well, other than the Kodak 620x which sported a CYM CFA rather than an RGB one. Everything had a yellowish tint with that camera. The later 720x sported improvements and didn't do that, at least with Kodak's own processing software.

Stan
 
emdundronald said:
JimKasson said:
emdundronald said:
Is there someone left here who considers color vaguely related to what we see?

I am starting to understand that nowadays photography has become an entirely creative discipline ;)
Click to expand...
With modern cameras, we have ways to capture color more accurately than we ever could with color film.
Click to expand...
Absolutely. I remember when I was an ICC member, Jack Holm walked in from HP and he explained he had measured this scene with a tele-radiometer so he could do "scene referred" color rendering. whatever that means .e. Also some guys in Paris used a cryogenic multispectral sensor setup ripped from a satellite to scan some painting in the Louvre which someone thought important enough to preserve. At least that one let you view the picture in any light you chose.

Now I'm sure that's the "we" you refer to. Smart competent people with knowledge about colorimetry, physics, psychology etc, the best of hardware, who can talk in an erudite way about Luther's condition and metqmeric color matches, and who make me feel like I'm at an Einstein imitator's convention.
Click to expand...
Actually, I was thinking about anybody who can figure out how to set up Lumariver Profile Designer in repro mode.
emdundronald said:
But let's talk about all those magazine images I see. Ouch.
Click to expand...
I agree. The world is full of overly chromatic, too high contrast, oversharpened, garish ugly images, and the fact that there are so many out there has destroyed some people's sense of what a good image looks like, so that the phone manufacturers set the default sharpness to "razor's edge" and the saturation to "stun".
emdundronald said:
I quite accept that YOU can provide "accurate" or "pleasing" color, but I wonder why out there I see so little of either of the above?

Edmund
Click to expand...
 
Stan Disbrow said:
Hi,

The correct color is whatever the Pantone Matching System shows you on the color swatch card for the PMS number in question. Under 5000 degree Kelvin lighting.
Click to expand...
Under D50 lighting, I think you mean.
Stan Disbrow said:
Anything else is a crap shoot with Metamerism. Which is what you notice between various hours and such.

And, I know of people who got that wrong and it cost them millions of dollars.

Stan
Click to expand...
 
Stan Disbrow said:
Ah. The 1Ds. That was quite popular back when. And with good reason. I bought one as well. With only two Canon zoom lenses mostly for use with the companion 1D I bought at the same time. I used Nikon manual focus primes with the 1Ds. The adapter is still here.
Click to expand...
Yes, I used the 1Ds for most of the detail shots and to record stuff like this...

(The the new alter arriving at St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh on the 2nd of May during the restoration and renewal in 2003)

(The the new alter arriving at St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh on the 2nd of May during the restoration and renewal in 2003)

.. and the Phase One H20 digital back (which I bought in 2002) on either the Hasselblad 503CW or the Horseman DigiFlex II (with the Nikon PC-Nikkor 28mm f/3.5 lens attached) to take the main shots, like these...

(The bronze crucifix, known as The Tree of Life, inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh on Good Friday at 2.51pm, before it was moved during the restoration and renewal in 2003)

(The bronze crucifix, known as The Tree of Life, inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh on Good Friday at 2.51pm, before it was moved during the restoration and renewal in 2003)

(Stained-glass window depicting St. Patrick preaching at Tara, inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(Stained-glass window depicting St. Patrick preaching at Tara, inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh after the restoration in 2003)

(St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh after the restoration in 2003)

(The baptism of Emily Kate on the 26th of June 2003 at St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh after the restoration and renewal)

(The baptism of Emily Kate on the 26th of June 2003 at St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh after the restoration and renewal)

.. and more recently the Phase One P25 digital back (which I bought in 2004) on the 503CW to take these...

(Archbishop Eamon Martin at the alter inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh - where the carvings facing the congregation depict Christ the good shepherd, at the centre with the four Irish saints most closely associated with Armagh on either side: Malachy with the pallium and the apple, Brigid with the cross, Patrick with the shamrock and Oliver Plunkett)

(Archbishop Eamon Martin at the alter inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh - where the carvings facing the congregation depict Christ the good shepherd, at the centre with the four Irish saints most closely associated with Armagh on either side: Malachy with the pallium and the apple, Brigid with the cross, Patrick with the shamrock and Oliver Plunkett)

(Archbishop Eamon Martin sitting on his chair inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(Archbishop Eamon Martin sitting on his chair inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(The statue of Saint Oliver Plunkett inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(The statue of Saint Oliver Plunkett inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

.. as they now want to update their guide book... just so you know.

So I didn’t buy any new cameras or digital backs after 2004 (until last year, when I picked up a P45+ back and a 1Ds Mark III on eBay for a faction of their original cost) because I couldn’t see any difference when 'the real ink hits the page’ - and still can’t.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
 
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Well, at least we got some nice images out of this discussion, I particularly like the baptism.

As for the color, I'm not so sure about the stained glass - it is old or new? The old blue lets through very little light, I seem to remember, and has a very saturated tone to it, which might be out of gamut on most displays and printers, I think the yellows and reds of the medieval ones are also different from the modern versions. Just from memory. I was a student at King's which has a somewhat elaborate college chapel with a large surface of stained glass, but from memory it was more ornate but less spectacular from a color point of view than the one that can be seen at Sainte Chapelle in Paris which was at some point decommissioned and put to use as a storage room, but used to be the King and Queen's private chapel.

--

Ouch, my name is mistyped - my name is Edmund Ronald
http://instagram.com/edmundronald
 
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emdundronald said:
Well, at least we got some nice images out of this discussion, I particularly like the baptism.

As for the color, I'm not so sure about the stained glass - it is old or new? The old blue lets through very little light, I seem to remember, and has a very saturated tone to it, which might be out of gamut on most displays and printers, I think the yellows and reds of the medieval ones are also different from the modern versions. Just from memory...
Click to expand...
From what I can tell most of the stained-glass windows were installed between the opening in 1873 and the early 1900s - the biggest one being the Great East Window...

(The lower section of the Great East Window showing 'The Crucifixion of Christ' inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(The lower section of the Great East Window showing 'The Crucifixion of Christ' inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

.. all of which I shot from a Scissor lift...

(In the scissor lift shooting inside St. Patrick's Cathedral)

(In the scissor lift shooting inside St. Patrick's Cathedral)

.. during the restoration and renewal period.

Naturally I wanted the colours to look fairly true - but for the most part it was more about capturing the (divine) light - both inside...

(The Third Station of the Cross 'Jesus falls the first time' inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(The Third Station of the Cross 'Jesus falls the first time' inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

.. and out...

(The tomb of Cardinal Tomas O Fiaich outside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

(The tomb of Cardinal Tomas O Fiaich outside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

.. as that's what they wanted.

Armagh, by the way, as two cathedrals...

(Overlooking the city of Armagh)

(Overlooking the city of Armagh)

.. both are named after Saint Patrick.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
 
emdundronald said:
I was looking at sample shots from the R5II, and comparisons, and every real world image I see has stranger skin tone, and then I look generally at what is out there as images on dpreview, and every portrait sample from a camera looks stranger than the previous one, even the landscape shots I can't figure out whether the day was overcast or sunny.

And then I found this article

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topi...s-invented-lets-return-to-proper-film-making/

I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film. Slide film at least was canonical, you could hold it in your hand, digital files aren't color they're just numbers.

Edmund
Click to expand...
 
Scottelly said:
emdundronald said:
I was looking at sample shots from the R5II, and comparisons, and every real world image I see has stranger skin tone, and then I look generally at what is out there as images on dpreview, and every portrait sample from a camera looks stranger than the previous one, even the landscape shots I can't figure out whether the day was overcast or sunny.

And then I found this article

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topi...s-invented-lets-return-to-proper-film-making/

I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film. Slide film at least was canonical, you could hold it in your hand, digital files aren't color they're just numbers.

Edmund
Click to expand...
I sure hope you don't think film is flawless. Open up an old photography magazine, and read some of the articles about color reproduction, the dark room nightmares, the film stock inconsistencies, etc. Believe me, color today us MUCH better than it was back when I was learning photography in the 1980s and 1990s, shooting with Kodachrome slide film and Kodak Gold 200 negative film in my Canon T90.
Click to expand...
 
JimKasson said:
Scottelly said:
emdundronald said:
I was looking at sample shots from the R5II, and comparisons, and every real world image I see has stranger skin tone, and then I look generally at what is out there as images on dpreview, and every portrait sample from a camera looks stranger than the previous one, even the landscape shots I can't figure out whether the day was overcast or sunny.

And then I found this article

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topi...s-invented-lets-return-to-proper-film-making/

I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film. Slide film at least was canonical, you could hold it in your hand, digital files aren't color they're just numbers.

Edmund
Click to expand...
I sure hope you don't think film is flawless. Open up an old photography magazine, and read some of the articles about color reproduction, the dark room nightmares, the film stock inconsistencies, etc. Believe me, color today us MUCH better than it was back when I was learning photography in the 1980s and 1990s, shooting with Kodachrome slide film and Kodak Gold 200 negative film in my Canon T90.
Click to expand...
I think the capabilities of modern digital sensors exceed those if film for accurate color capture. But I think that the results have not improved commensurately. I posted what I think are some reasons for that.
Click to expand...
 
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