Me bewildered - What a mess digital color is!

emdundronald

Forum Enthusiast
Messages
260
Reaction score
74
Location
FR
I was looking at sample shots from the R5II, and comparisons, and every real world image I see has stranger skin tone, and then I look generally at what is out there as images on dpreview, and every portrait sample from a camera looks stranger than the previous one, even the landscape shots I can't figure out whether the day was overcast or sunny.

And then I found this article

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topi...s-invented-lets-return-to-proper-film-making/

I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film. Slide film at least was canonical, you could hold it in your hand, digital files aren't color they're just numbers.

Edmund
 
I was looking at sample shots from the R5II, and comparisons, and every real world image I see has stranger skin tone, and then I look generally at what is out there as images on dpreview, and every portrait sample from a camera looks stranger than the previous one, even the landscape shots I can't figure out whether the day was overcast or sunny.

And then I found this article

https://www.eoshd.com/comments/topi...s-invented-lets-return-to-proper-film-making/

I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film. Slide film at least was canonical, you could hold it in your hand, digital files aren't color they're just numbers.

Edmund
Yelling at clouds much? ;) Harrumph!

I do see a lot of digital colour photography that I don't enjoy, but it's a matter of taste. I have a little Ricoh GR IIIx and observe that a lot of people who use this camera are not exactly conservative when it comes to colour. "Ricoh Recipes" are a big thing in that world.

I think you'll be a lot happier if you can find a camera profile that gives you the colours you consider "correct". It took me a while to find one, but I'm quite pleased with the one I use now. https://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Colour-A-Better-Starting-Point
 
I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film.
The time of ‘film’ was actually the time of ‘films’, plural, where image colors reflected the film choice. Looking back at old photos, with muted tones and clear color biases, doesn’t make me miss the constraints.

Sometimes, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
 
I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film.
The time of ‘film’ was actually the time of ‘films’, plural, where image colors reflected the film choice. Looking back at old photos, with muted tones and clear color biases, doesn’t make me miss the constraints.

Sometimes, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
There was an absolutely bewildering array of film stock as well, and the colour rendering would be affected by storage conditions, different manufacturing batches, changes to chemical composition, lab chemicals/competency... could keep going. And that's without getting into C-type printing and negative/slide digitisation, which obviously blows all of this up even more.

There were (still are) some great film stocks out there (not Cinestill or Phoenix, both disgusting), but there's no way this was a better time with regards colour.
 
I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film.
The time of ‘film’ was actually the time of ‘films’, plural, where image colors reflected the film choice. Looking back at old photos, with muted tones and clear color biases, doesn’t make me miss the constraints.

Sometimes, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
Ain't that the truth!

I recently have been scanning (or photographing) lots of the pictures I took on film of people during the 80's & 90's - and I noticed - having totally forgotten most of what I did back then - that I not only used various types of film, including different brands, I would have also sometimes shot both negative film and transparency film.

Noticeable difference...

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)

.. but yet I don't remember thinking that much about it at the time... possibly because of how they each would have been viewed, which naturally would have been very different.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
 
I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film.
The time of ‘film’ was actually the time of ‘films’, plural, where image colors reflected the film choice. Looking back at old photos, with muted tones and clear color biases, doesn’t make me miss the constraints.

Sometimes, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
Ain't that the truth!

I recently have been scanning (or photographing) lots of the pictures I took on film of people during the 80's & 90's - and I noticed - having totally forgotten most of what I did back then - that I not only used various types of film, including different brands, I would have also sometimes shot both negative film and transparency film.

Noticeable difference...

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)

.. but yet I don't remember thinking that much about it at the time... possibly because of how they each would have been viewed, which naturally would have been very different.
The punchiness of chromes is obvious here, and, to me, not in a good way. Thanks for posting these.



--
 
Film was never infallible, nor canonical. I recall testing just the three Fujifilm 4x5 transparency films, 10 or 15 years ago.

Astia in 4x5 was truly beautiful to me. Subtle colors. Provia was good, okay in a pinch. Velvia was too much, too saturated, purple skies.

Different people might have their own preferences, and that's fine, but they were all quite different, and distinguishable from one another.
 
I think you'll be a lot happier if you can find a camera profile that gives you the colours you consider "correct". It took me a while to find one, but I'm quite pleased with the one I use now. https://www.robdeloephotography.com/Pages/Colour-A-Better-Starting-Point
Have you compared to the Adobe Color Profile?
Yes -- extensively. Both Adobe Color and Adobe Standard are decent starting points that can get you where you want to go.

The Paysages profile I'm using now builds off Adobe Standard. As I mention in that article, I like it because of how it handles greens.
 
plus, and this is a big one, filters were needed if the light varied by just a few degrees Kelvin.

shooting colour, shooting from evening to night - digital wins every time.

old timers used film stock ‘‘cos that the only choice. There is a reason why it took exactly 4 and 1/2 seconds for film users to become digital users. It’s easier, cheaper and better.

Using film can be a fun exercise but, come on, how many of us would give up photography if digital was banned and the future was film.
I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film.
The time of ‘film’ was actually the time of ‘films’, plural, where image colors reflected the film choice. Looking back at old photos, with muted tones and clear color biases, doesn’t make me miss the constraints.

Sometimes, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
 
The punchiness of chromes is obvious here, and, to me, not in a good way. Thanks for posting these.
Like I said, each would have been viewed differently back then - I would have used transparency film when I knew the images were going to be printed in a magazine or in brochures, etc - whereas, I would have used negative film when I knew the images were just going to be printed as colour prints… even though I knew either could be used for both.

Anyway, it's interesting to see the difference as I look back at some of the images I do remember taking 20+ years ago...

(Sharon Owens with some of her art work - image was produced for a feature about her in Northern Ireland's Homes Interiors and Living magazine around the end of the 90s - shot using Fujichrome Velvia 50 RVP daylight-type film and the Bronica SQ-Ai camera)
(Sharon Owens with some of her art work - image was produced for a feature about her in Northern Ireland's Homes Interiors and Living magazine around the end of the 90s - shot using Fujichrome Velvia 50 RVP daylight-type film and the Bronica SQ-Ai camera)

(At home with Sharon Owens - image was produced in 2004 and was used by House Beautiful magazine in their April 2005 issue, as well as local magazine in their September 2006 issue - shot using the Phase One P25 digital back on the Hasselblad 503CW camera)
(At home with Sharon Owens - image was produced in 2004 and was used by House Beautiful magazine in their April 2005 issue, as well as local magazine in their September 2006 issue - shot using the Phase One P25 digital back on the Hasselblad 503CW camera)

.. like it was only yesterday.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
 
Last edited:
Anyway, it's interesting to see the difference as I look back at some of the images I do remember taking 20+ years ago...

(Sharon Owens with some of her art work - image was produced for a feature about her in Northern Ireland's Homes Interiors and Living magazine around the end of the 90s - shot using Fujichrome Velvia 50 RVP daylight-type film and the Bronica SQ-Ai camera)
(Sharon Owens with some of her art work - image was produced for a feature about her in Northern Ireland's Homes Interiors and Living magazine around the end of the 90s - shot using Fujichrome Velvia 50 RVP daylight-type film and the Bronica SQ-Ai camera)

(At home with Sharon Owens - image was produced in 2004 and was used by House Beautiful magazine in their April 2005 issue, as well as local magazine in their September 2006 issue - shot using the Phase One P25 digital back on the Hasselblad 503CW camera)
(At home with Sharon Owens - image was produced in 2004 and was used by House Beautiful magazine in their April 2005 issue, as well as local magazine in their September 2006 issue - shot using the Phase One P25 digital back on the Hasselblad 503CW camera)

.. like it was only yesterday.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
It was only yesterday. Flys by time.

Unless we are ill in the doldrums have problems then time draaags ooon and ooon.

Brilliant poetry Sharon Owens.
Brilliant poetry Sharon Owens.

A brilliant lady as Sharon Owens if she would kindly honour a hobo bloke me I'd love to been creative artistically together every now and then only when she chose in her own time her space.

--
Photography after all is interplay of light alongside perspective.
 
Last edited:
I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film.
The time of ‘film’ was actually the time of ‘films’, plural, where image colors reflected the film choice. Looking back at old photos, with muted tones and clear color biases, doesn’t make me miss the constraints.

Sometimes, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
Ain't that the truth!

I recently have been scanning (or photographing) lots of the pictures I took on film of people during the 80's & 90's - and I noticed - having totally forgotten most of what I did back then - that I not only used various types of film, including different brands, I would have also sometimes shot both negative film and transparency film.

Noticeable difference...

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)

.. but yet I don't remember thinking that much about it at the time... possibly because of how they each would have been viewed, which naturally would have been very different.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
Both images were shot on P45+, seemingly directly from film. Negative film would need conversion to positive and that step would determine color, I would think.

'Duping' tranny film, I would think it would make sense to use a linear profile, as transparency film has a pretty steep tone curve built in.

In the end, I think that digital capture is both predictable and pretty much accurate.

Best regards

Erik

--
Erik Kaffehr
Website: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net
Magic tends to disappear in controlled experiments…
Gallery: http://echophoto.smugmug.com
Articles: http://echophoto.dnsalias.net/ekr/index.php/photoarticles
 
Noticeable difference...

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujicolor 160 NSP negative film)

(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)
(Shot with the Mamiya RB67 Pro-S camera using Fujichrome color transparency film)
Both images were shot on P45+, seemingly directly from film. Negative film would need conversion to positive and that step would determine color, I would think.

'Duping' tranny film, I would think it would make sense to use a linear profile, as transparency film has a pretty steep tone curve built in.

In the end, I think that digital capture is both predictable and pretty much accurate.
Yes, both were digitally captured as you can see from these screen-shots...

Capture-093350
Capture-093350

Capture-093689
Capture-093689

.. and then I obviously did quite a bit work to each image afterwards, as you can see.

The end result I think is reasonably accurate, but by no means perfect, i.e. it's fine / it's good enough for Facebook - because lets be honest, nobody really cares about these images (that were taken 40 years ago) any more.

Added note: as I said before, I would have used transparency film when I knew the images were going to be printed in a magazine or in brochures, etc - and so I would have sent the client the 'best shots' (i.e. correctly exposed, etc) - which means all I was left with was 'the rejects' - should you be wondering why Capture-093689 above looks a little dark, which it is.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
 
Last edited:
plus, and this is a big one, filters were needed if the light varied by just a few degrees Kelvin.

shooting colour, shooting from evening to night - digital wins every time.

old timers used film stock ‘‘cos that the only choice. There is a reason why it took exactly 4 and 1/2 seconds for film users to become digital users. It’s easier, cheaper and better.

Using film can be a fun exercise but, come on, how many of us would give up photography if digital was banned and the future was film.
Yet we have a few photographers in our club who have put digital down and embraced film. Four or five now are shooting film almost exclusively. One is even selling his nearly new GFX gear as it just collects dust while his Hasselblad gets a steady diet of Ilford and Gold 200. Three members have rented some space and are opening a darkroom.



Film may be dying for commercial work, but it is alive and well for hobbyists.


I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film.
The time of ‘film’ was actually the time of ‘films’, plural, where image colors reflected the film choice. Looking back at old photos, with muted tones and clear color biases, doesn’t make me miss the constraints.

Sometimes, nostalgia ain’t what it used to be.
 
I am starting to think that when it comes to color there is such a thing as too much freedom and we really were better off in the time of film. Slide film at least was canonical, you could hold it in your hand, digital files aren't color they're just numbers.
When we worked in the darkroom, the tools we had for image manipulation were pretty crude by today's standards. With silver-based B&W, we could crop, change size, lighten, darken, change contrast, dodge, burn, bleach (like dodging, but affecting only the lighter areas). Sharpening required pin-registered printing setups and fiddly mask-making; most of us didn't bother. Same with contrast-reduction masking. In color printing, we could do most of what we could do in B&W, but changing the contrast was difficult. In addition, we could manipulate global color. Changing local color was too difficult for most. Large luminance changes were often accompanied with chroma shifts, and most avoided them.

Yet we soldiered on, and made some pretty good prints.

It's different now. We can do almost anything we can conceive of, and lots of things are dead easy.

So what's happened to print -- and now, screen -- quality? Increased by leaps and bounds, right?

Not so much.

I have to admit that there has been some improvement. I went to a show not long ago of high school students working with chemical photography. The prints were generally a bit muddy. There was some "chalk and ashes". It didn't look as good as what you see with kids of the same age printing digitally.

But there weren't any sear-your-eyes prints like you see all over the place now: amped up contrast and saturation, and sharpness that makes you think you'd cut yourself if you pick up a print.

Where did all this excess come from? First off, it's not new; it's been with us ever since Photoshop first shipped. I blame the tools. Or rather, I blame the users for getting carried away with the tools.

In the shop, power tools are more dangerous than hand tools. They can whip through work at great rate, but with all that power comes the ability to do great harm. Users of those tools assume extra responsibility, and should have extra training to keep them, and those around them, safe.

So it is with computer image editors.

But the training's not mandatory, and it seems like a lot of people aren't being trained. That's because there is no physical danger. However, the aesthetic danger is extreme. There's a herd effect here. As more and more people look at images on steroids, that affects their sensibilities, and normal images look blah. So people turn the dial up further trying to make their images stand out. It's a bit like the race for volume that brought the high-gain limiters to FM radio stations and destroyed with was left of musical quality for many of them.

So it's not Adobe's and Phase One's fault? In my book, they don't get off scot free. Here's why: Capture One (C1) and Lightroom (Lr) both ship with a set of default settings that change with the camera and lens used. I think the Adobe defaults are a bit oversharpened, a bit oversaturated[and, in late 2018, the default sharpening increased]. I think that C1 tends to be even more so.

Sharpness, saturation, contrast in moderation are all good things. In excess, they are image-killers. But they are seductive. So much so, that after you've seen an image that's too vibrant, a version of that image that's right looks dull. When I was taught B&W silver printing, my mentors told me to sneak up on the right contrast grade from the soft side. The reason was the same: once you see a real punchy print, the subtle, elegant one looks flat. In my mind, the ideal starting point for raw development would be with an image that's a bit soft in contrast, a tad undersaturated, and not quite sharp enough. We certainly don't have that today with Lr and C1 defaults.

What's that I hear you saying? "The user can change the defaults." Well, you're right, then can. But how many do? And if they don't, they're training their eyes to like the drama-queen images.

Somehow, we've avoided all following each other lemming-like over the cliff of excess. There are good images out there. Lots of them. Thank God for that. But there's a lot of eyeball-toasting ones, too. And I suspect there are a lot of new photographers who are embarrassed and chagrined when they finally figure it out, and even more who never do figure it out.

And don't get me started on HDR...
 
darktable (my axe of choice) comes with the ability to configure 4 possible workflows as the default:
  • display referred (legacy)
  • scene referred (filmic)
  • scene referred (sigmoid)
  • nothing
Each of the first three options applies different default modules and settings.

The final option doesn't do anything beyond demosaicing, highlight reconstruction, orientation and white balance.

You can, of course, specify any additional default processing you want applied automatically at import.

I have set my default workflow to "Nothing".

Here's an example image after import (exported as a jpeg):

8d2714bcc3264db8916f5717d83d0342.jpg

I think that is quite a good starting place for editing.

--
2024: Awarded Royal Photographic Society LRPS Distinction
Photo of the day: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/photo-of-the-day-2025/
Website: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/
DPReview gallery: https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/0286305481
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)
 
Last edited:
Jim,

Or, as Charlie Cramer says, “Step away from that saturation slider, or we’re going to have to have an intervention!” 😋

Rand
 
Here's an example image after import (exported as a jpeg):

8d2714bcc3264db8916f5717d83d0342.jpg

I think that is quite a good starting place for editing.
Reminds me of one of the many images I took like this…

(The carved head of Jesus - bottom left of centre aisle - inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)
(The carved head of Jesus - bottom left of centre aisle - inside St. Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh)

.. inside St. Patrick's Cathedral during the restoration & renewal back in 2003 - shortly after I bought the Canon 1Ds, which is what I used for that type of shot.

Such images were used in their guide book...

(Our work as seen in the 'Official Cathedral Guide' book for St Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh - showing pages of the bronze crucifix, the Sanctuary area and the Baptistery)
(Our work as seen in the 'Official Cathedral Guide' book for St Patrick's Cathedral in Armagh - showing pages of the bronze crucifix, the Sanctuary area and the Baptistery)

.. usually quite small, as a cut-out at the top of the page, at the start of each section - just so you know.

Anyway, would be interested in seeing what that image of yours looks like after you edited it, since you feel that's quite a good starting place.

-
Creating images to tell a story... just for you!
Cheers,
Ashley.
 
Last edited:
I'm doing a long running project to photograph the round tower churches of east anglia (there are (maybe) 187), round tower churches are not found much outside this region. I decided (for no particular sensible reason) to photograph them in B&W infrared, but I take my colour camera as well. Many of these churches have these little faces, usually under the ends of arches. They are small, maybe just two or three inches across and for some reason I seem to find them the most interesting parts of the architecture.

Here's a quick stab at applying my usual editing approach to this image. I note that there was insufficient depth of field at 300mm.

816c8208544f4c4086a1aac0025a30e3.jpg

--
2024: Awarded Royal Photographic Society LRPS Distinction
Photo of the day: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/photo-of-the-day-2025/
Website: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/
DPReview gallery: https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/0286305481
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)
 

Attachments

  • 119952d70670482fa7e01ea1b8d70698.jpg
    119952d70670482fa7e01ea1b8d70698.jpg
    1.1 MB · Views: 0
Last edited:

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top