M4/3 for portraits -- DOF not shallow?

I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
IMO - FF or medium format with super fast portrait length lenses are over rated. And I do own the Sigma 105mm F1.4. There is a point where the DOF is too shallow for normal photography and best reserved for effects photography.
DoF is only then too shallow when you dont know what youre doing. Full body portraits (of a couple) from larger distance with 75mm aperture opening like 105mm f1.4 or 135mm f1.8 are absolutely stunning , and the DoF is a key criteria to make them isolated from background. Only in theory this is possible with m43.
One of my favorite MFT Bokeh lenses is the Oly 12-100mm F4. Not a portrait lens but I got some great Bokeh effect shots with a very nice focus falloff.
largerst aperture opening on this 200mmf8 equivalent is 25mm, which is the same as a FF 35mmf1.4. Sure its enough, but with 200mm you will be very very limited in the photos you can take compared to 35mm, where with hi-mp you can absolutely crop in post to 100mmf4 equivalent (8MP left). 35mmf1.4-100mmf4 for a similar price than 12-100f4. theres just no contest...
 
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I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
IMO - FF or medium format with super fast portrait length lenses are over rated. And I do own the Sigma 105mm F1.4. There is a point where the DOF is too shallow for normal photography and best reserved for effects photography.
DoF is only then too shallow when you dont know what youre doing. Full body portraits (of a couple) from larger distance with 75mm aperture opening like 105mm f1.4 or 135mm f1.8 are absolutely stunning , and the DoF is a key criteria to make them isolated from background. Only in theory this is possible with m43.
I think the point here isn't that FF can isolate more than MFT. This is obvious and not the thing that people are arguing with.

The question is how tiny do you want your DoF to be, and most of the time to shallow of a DoF is a very lazy way to compose your shot.

Sure, it looks nice, but you lose all context to the shot. You just have a sharp thing in the middle of a blurry background. It looks cool because this is not what we're used to see, but I agree with tammons here, this is really overrated. It has been used and used and used to saturation and besides a few examples where DoF is used creatively, this is not really the kind of images I like to see or even make myself. I like some subject separation, but too much of it simply makes the photo appear lazy in my opinion.
One of my favorite MFT Bokeh lenses is the Oly 12-100mm F4. Not a portrait lens but I got some great Bokeh effect shots with a very nice focus falloff.
largerst aperture opening on this 200mmf8 equivalent is 25mm, which is the same as a FF 35mmf1.4. Sure its enough, but with 200mm you will be very very limited in the photos you can take compared to 35mm, where with hi-mp you can absolutely crop in post to 100mmf4 equivalent (8MP left). 35mmf1.4-100mmf4 for a similar price than 12-100f4. theres just no contest...
Who even said that we even wanted to have 35mm f/1.4 depth of field? I use my 40mm f/2 on my Nikon Z6 a lot, and I'm stopping down constantly because even that lens kind of obliterates the background the moment you get close enough to your subject (not mentioning the DoF simply becomes too shallow).

Same thing with longer lenses like my 85mm f/1.8. I generally don't get wider than f/2.8 when I really want to destroy the background, generally I'm more shooting around f/3.5 or f/4.
 
Loga in 2018 making this thread with Oly A-200 1.5x

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60595979

Heads up earlier on this current thread.

My A-200 delivered yesturday.

Oly A-200 1.5x on my Oly 45/1.8 with 37-49mm step up ring.
Oly A-200 1.5x on my Oly 45/1.8 with 37-49mm step up ring.

Probably utilise Oly A-200 on foliage flowers, although not on portraits.

For portraits have currently approx 71mm f/1.4 * : Yongnuo 100/2 autofocus on Viltrox 0.71 EF-M2 adapter in this picture.

* 142mm f/2.8 equivalent 35mm full frame. Smaller than an autofocus 135mm f/2.8 full frame lens.

--
Photography after all is interplay of light alongside perspective.
 

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comments in FF vs m43 threads are just sad.
Yeah it seems a bit unnecessary. So much noise for two completely different type of systems.

Get both! Use what you want.
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
IMO - FF or medium format with super fast portrait length lenses are over rated. And I do own the Sigma 105mm F1.4. There is a point where the DOF is too shallow for normal photography and best reserved for effects photography.
DoF is only then too shallow when you dont know what youre doing. Full body portraits (of a couple) from larger distance with 75mm aperture opening like 105mm f1.4 or 135mm f1.8 are absolutely stunning , and the DoF is a key criteria to make them isolated from background. Only in theory this is possible with m43.
I think the point here isn't that FF can isolate more than MFT. This is obvious and not the thing that people are arguing with.

The question is how tiny do you want your DoF to be, and most of the time to shallow of a DoF is a very lazy way to compose your shot.

Sure, it looks nice, but you lose all context to the shot. You just have a sharp thing in the middle of a blurry background. It looks cool because this is not what we're used to see, but I agree with tammons here, this is really overrated. It has been used and used and used to saturation and besides a few examples where DoF is used creatively, this is not really the kind of images I like to see or even make myself. I like some subject separation, but too much of it simply makes the photo appear lazy in my opinion.
One of my favorite MFT Bokeh lenses is the Oly 12-100mm F4. Not a portrait lens but I got some great Bokeh effect shots with a very nice focus falloff.
largerst aperture opening on this 200mmf8 equivalent is 25mm, which is the same as a FF 35mmf1.4. Sure its enough, but with 200mm you will be very very limited in the photos you can take compared to 35mm, where with hi-mp you can absolutely crop in post to 100mmf4 equivalent (8MP left). 35mmf1.4-100mmf4 for a similar price than 12-100f4. theres just no contest...
Who even said that we even wanted to have 35mm f/1.4 depth of field? I use my 40mm f/2 on my Nikon Z6 a lot, and I'm stopping down constantly because even that lens kind of obliterates the background the moment you get close enough to your subject (not mentioning the DoF simply becomes too shallow).

Same thing with longer lenses like my 85mm f/1.8. I generally don't get wider than f/2.8 when I really want to destroy the background, generally I'm more shooting around f/3.5 or f/4.
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
IMO - FF or medium format with super fast portrait length lenses are over rated. And I do own the Sigma 105mm F1.4. There is a point where the DOF is too shallow for normal photography and best reserved for effects photography.
DoF is only then too shallow when you dont know what youre doing. Full body portraits (of a couple) from larger distance with 75mm aperture opening like 105mm f1.4 or 135mm f1.8 are absolutely stunning , and the DoF is a key criteria to make them isolated from background. Only in theory this is possible with m43.
I think the point here isn't that FF can isolate more than MFT. This is obvious and not the thing that people are arguing with.

The question is how tiny do you want your DoF to be, and most of the time to shallow of a DoF is a very lazy way to compose your shot.

Sure, it looks nice, but you lose all context to the shot. You just have a sharp thing in the middle of a blurry background. It looks cool because this is not what we're used to see, but I agree with tammons here, this is really overrated. It has been used and used and used to saturation and besides a few examples where DoF is used creatively, this is not really the kind of images I like to see or even make myself. I like some subject separation, but too much of it simply makes the photo appear lazy in my opinion.
One of my favorite MFT Bokeh lenses is the Oly 12-100mm F4. Not a portrait lens but I got some great Bokeh effect shots with a very nice focus falloff.
largerst aperture opening on this 200mmf8 equivalent is 25mm, which is the same as a FF 35mmf1.4. Sure its enough, but with 200mm you will be very very limited in the photos you can take compared to 35mm, where with hi-mp you can absolutely crop in post to 100mmf4 equivalent (8MP left). 35mmf1.4-100mmf4 for a similar price than 12-100f4. theres just no contest...
Who even said that we even wanted to have 35mm f/1.4 depth of field? I use my 40mm f/2 on my Nikon Z6 a lot, and I'm stopping down constantly because even that lens kind of obliterates the background the moment you get close enough to your subject (not mentioning the DoF simply becomes too shallow).

Same thing with longer lenses like my 85mm f/1.8. I generally don't get wider than f/2.8 when I really want to destroy the background, generally I'm more shooting around f/3.5 or f/4.
Some people like less DOF than M43 is capable of -some don't.

I would rather have the option than not.
No argument there.

I enjoy my full frame camera and the options that it gives me as well. Though I tend to use lenses wide open when I'm further from the subject, where the DoF is deeper, anyway.
 
Loga in 2018 making this thread with Oly A-200 1.5x

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/60595979

Heads up earlier on this current thread.

My A-200 delivered yesturday.

Oly A-200 1.5x on my Oly 45/1.8 with 37-49mm step up ring.
Oly A-200 1.5x on my Oly 45/1.8 with 37-49mm step up ring.

Probably utilise Oly A-200 on foliage flowers, although not on portraits.

For portraits have currently approx 71mm f/1.4 * : Yongnuo 100/2 autofocus on Viltrox 0.71 EF-M2 adapter in this picture.

* 142mm f/2.8 equivalent 35mm full frame. Smaller than an autofocus 135mm f/2.8 full frame lens.
 
Whether you're "completely obliterating" the background or not at f/1.4 really depends on the composition. For me, I use my FF gear in situations where I'm doing full-body shots (which I would call a form of "environmental portraiture") and I want more background separation to minimize ugly backgrounds.

This is a complete unedited shot from the S5 II and the 50/1.8 wide open. At f/1.4, the background would be cleaner and, IMO, "better". And this is where MFT would really suffer and have a more distracting background.

455ffaa847d5433a8b0c3a7aba610a6d.jpg
But but but ... I'm a gearhead. I want to see which amps, settings, and microphones are used! 🤣
 
Shot with an OM-3 and a water damaged 45/1.8 at f1.8 over a pizza and a beer in the in an outdoor Italian restaurant on a balmy summer's evening. I don't think there's an issue with DOF there.

OM-3, Oly 45mm f1.8
OM-3, Oly 45mm f1.8
 
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Shot with an OM-3 and a water damaged 45/1.8 at f1.8 over a pizza and a beer in the in an outdoor Italian restaurant on a balmy summer's evening. I don't think there's an issue with DOF there.

OM-3, Oly 45mm f1.8
OM-3, Oly 45mm f1.8
This is a mid-telephoto lens close up, so of course the background will be shallow.
The OP is talking about portraits, it's in the title. In FF, around 85mm is traditionally the favoured FL for portraits.
 
Approx 71mm f/1.4* on Viltrox 0.71 Ef-M2 adapter Yongnuo 100/2 lens. *Equivalent approx 142mm f/2.8 ff terms.
Approx 71mm f/1.4* on Viltrox 0.71 Ef-M2 adapter Yongnuo 100/2 lens. *Equivalent approx 142mm f/2.8 ff terms.

🔥 me away 😹

⛑️

Candid street photograph. She saw me afterwards beamed smiling to me as I was on my knees. 🙏

When I don't want to bring my 5dmk2 looks too serious for street, nor my A7rmk2, then a focal reducer is just the ticket for moi on my m4/3 for these styles photos where there's still some context.

[ o ]

Although were I to take on a portrait assignment I'd probably pickup 1DSmk3 or D4 around £350-£450 with warranty quite a bargain.

At the same time too shallow dof loosing all context can look as if the person is standing infront of a screen superimposed on a scene. There's the Toneh 😹 too shallow portrature that Camera Conspiracies youtube channel made a comedy video on.

--
Photography after all is interplay of light alongside perspective.
 
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Sensors larger than M4/3 offer the possibility for shallower depth of field. If you’re not familiar with the term “equivalence” in photography and want to learn more, you might try a search of this website. Whether your portraits will have “enough” shallow depth of field with M4/3 gear depends on what you consider acceptable. If size is an issue for you, the OM System 45 1.8 and 75 1.8 are two small primes that will allow background blur that’s sufficient for many photographers, including me. In fact, those lenses paired with one of the smaller M43 cameras offer a compact shooting experience that I don’t know how to replicate in other formats. It’s up to you decide the look you want and whether M4/3 can get you there. I hope that helps.
BTW “equivalence” is on the side of every OM System box and is a core design reference in all m43 instruction manuals. 135 or 35mm is the industry benchmark design standard.
In Jamaica, if you ask a Jamaican how far it is to somewhere, they might reply "ten 'chains'". What is a Chain? A Chain is a benchmark unit of distance, based on the length of the chains used to move groups of slaves from point A to point B. There is nothing special about being a benchmark.
 
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A chain is also a term of distance based on something entirely different.

In 1620, the polymath Edmund Gunter developed a method of accurately surveying land using a surveyor's chain 66 feet long with 100 links. The 66-foot unit, which was four perches or rods, took on the name the chain.
 
A chain is also a term of distance based on something entirely different.

In 1620, the polymath Edmund Gunter developed a method of accurately surveying land using a surveyor's chain 66 feet long with 100 links. The 66-foot unit, which was four perches or rods, took on the name the chain.
That's not what I was told by Jamaicans, twice independently. Coincidence? The length though, seems similar.
 
A chain is also a term of distance based on something entirely different.

In 1620, the polymath Edmund Gunter developed a method of accurately surveying land using a surveyor's chain 66 feet long with 100 links. The 66-foot unit, which was four perches or rods, took on the name the chain.
That's not what I was told by Jamaicans, twice independently. Coincidence? The length though, seems similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_(unit)

A
 
A chain is also a term of distance based on something entirely different.

In 1620, the polymath Edmund Gunter developed a method of accurately surveying land using a surveyor's chain 66 feet long with 100 links. The 66-foot unit, which was four perches or rods, took on the name the chain.
That's not what I was told by Jamaicans, twice independently. Coincidence? The length though, seems similar.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_(unit)

A
Okay, so, as DrHook59 (sans Medicine Show?) pointed out, the official unit of measurement for "chain" is based on a surveyor's "chain", yet also believed by more than one person in Jamaica to refer to the length of a chain formerly used to transport groups of slaves but that misunderstanding neither undermines nor bolsters my point that being a benchmark signifies nothing special.
 
Okay, so, as DrHook59 (sans Medicine Show?) pointed out, the official unit of measurement for "chain" is based on a surveyor's "chain", yet also believed by more than one person in Jamaica to refer to the length of a chain formerly used to transport groups of slaves but that misunderstanding neither undermines nor bolsters my point that being a benchmark signifies nothing special.
You may have misunderstood my intent - it was not to say you were wrong, just that there were two measurements in the offing. And to be blunt, I suspect both units of measurement are historically related, too. Sigh.
 
Bassam Guy wrote:
but that misunderstanding neither undermines nor bolsters my point that being a benchmark signifies nothing special.
See my .sig concerning units of measurement.
 

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