M4/3 for portraits -- DOF not shallow?

From Points in Focus, depth of field for both m43 and FF at f1.8:

Headshot m43 1” FF 0.5”

Head and Shoulders m43 3.2” FF 1.5”

Upper Body m43 6.5” FF 3.1”

Full Body m43 42.4” FF 19.7”

If a DOF of 3” is the requirement in order to keep most of the face in focus, m43 will do a fine job for tight portrait work, and only start giving more DOF than might be wanted for body shots. Even there with good background selection results can be quite nice.

Chuck



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45/1.8 is a terrific portrait lens and its drawback is its secret: field curvature wide open enhances the shallow DoF, giving the subject more pop.

Mind, I like the 45/1.2 even more but at a mere 3X the price I should.

Hoping the 45 is included in the next OMS upgrade round--adding weatherproofing and a metal case.

Rick
Honestly, if they only add weatherproofing and keep the heavy duty plastic, it would be even better.

One of the main advantages of this lens is that it's super small and light, making it metal would significantly increase the weight. I have a Fujifilm 35mm f/2 which is about the same size, but metal built : it's way heavier. I can carry the 45mm f/1.8 in a pocket and not feel it, not possible to do with the Fuji 35
Am assuming it gets the same treatment as the 25/1.8, which kept its dimensions and gained 20g due to the metal case (and seals, whatever they weigh).

Not on the roadmap so a phantom for now.
 
When possible, you can move closer to your subject or keep the background further away.
 
a bit more harder than FF by the physic laws but totally sufficient in most cases.



 first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait
first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait





second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses
second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses





third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4
third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4



they works all very well and help you is low light conditions
they works all very well and help you is low light conditions





 i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm
i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm





the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really
the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really



isnt it ?
isnt it ?



i adore what i can have with M4/3
i adore what i can have with M4/3



thanks all
thanks all
 
a bit more harder than FF by the physic laws but totally sufficient in most cases.

first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait
first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait

second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses
second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses

third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4
third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4

they works all very well and help you is low light conditions
they works all very well and help you is low light conditions

i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm
i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm

the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really
the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really

isnt it ?
isnt it ?

i adore what i can have with M4/3
i adore what i can have with M4/3

thanks all
thanks all
You'll only ever get that amount of subject separation in M43 by cutting off the subject's body and filling the frame, removing all context. This series is a great demonstration of that.
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this
because the sensor is smaller (e.g. phone sensors are smaller still and struggle to achieve any background blur in portraits without additional computational changes)
and is it really a problem for portraits?
depends how much OOF blur you want, and whether you're prepared to adapt

in general, assuming nothing else changes, your m43 lens will need to be 1/2 the focal length and twice as bright to achieve the same (equivalent) image as your FF gear

so taking your 85mm lens as an example, you need a 42.5mm m43 lens (a 45mm will achieve a FOV similar to a 90mm FF lens)

the aperture also needs to be halved to achieve similar background blur (again assuming everything else is equal - cameras, subjects, backgrounds all in the same position)

so if your FF lens has a max aperture of 1.8, and you shoot wide open, you would need a m43 lens with an aperture of 0.9 approx
These lenses exist - f0.95 - in the form of manual focus lenses made by several Chinese firms. Starting to get to the situation at wide open where actual photographic skill is necessary* when portrait nose and eye are not in focus at the same time. Surely background blur as much as anyone could need. But f1.2 should be plenty and there are many of them available in M4/3 mount - most of them have automatic focus.

* don't blame the lens.
and therein lies the "problem"

you'll likely get a bunch of unnecessarily long and complicated responses, or workarounds, but this is what it boils down to
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
Great portraiture is about interacting with the person not camera/lens party tricks.

Awareness, timing and a bit of luck
 
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Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
The short answer is that at portrait magnifications, DOF is inversely proportional to the square of focal length and directly proportional to aperture (expressed in f-stops) and sensor size (via the “circle of confusion.”)

Everyone has a different definition of a portrait, and even for a simple “head and shoulders” shot people have different preferences. IMO, the key takeaway is that a so-called “full frame” setup gives you a few extra options. Only you can say whether it matters to you or not.

I’ve published several portraits from “full frame” 90mm f/2.5 and 105mm f/2.8 lenses, so I wouldn’t hesitate to use the Sigma 56mm f/1.4 in a similar situation.

--
Light travels at 2.13085531 × 10^14 smoots per fortnight. Catch some today!
 
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Hang the right lens on the working end of your MFT body.

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Wish I can take portraits within inches using that lens to get the blurring background.
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
I use both Sony FF and MFT cameras and lenses. You can certainly get extremely shallow depth of field shots with FF cameras and f1.4 or f1.8 lenses with shallower depth of field than with MFT equipment. However, I find the faster f1.2 OM Pro lenses, OM 75/1.8 and PL 42.5/1.2 give me a shallow enough depth of field for my purposes. Here are a few examples from a recent photoshoot.

If you are interested in checking out more of my portraits, I've posted a few on Instagram under portraitsbyjsc. About 1/2 are with my Sony FF system and 1/2 with my OM system.





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a bit more harder than FF by the physic laws but totally sufficient in most cases.

first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait
first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait

second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses
second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses

third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4
third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4

they works all very well and help you is low light conditions
they works all very well and help you is low light conditions

i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm
i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm

the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really
the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really

isnt it ?
isnt it ?

i adore what i can have with M4/3
i adore what i can have with M4/3

thanks all
thanks all
You'll only ever get that amount of subject separation in M43 by cutting off the subject's body and filling the frame, removing all context. This series is a great demonstration of that.
Interesting.

I googled it, and came across this post on the reddit : " ... I shoot Sony FF and M43. I only care about DOF when I'm trying to melt backgrounds. It's more noticeable when shooting larger subjects or trying for isolation when capturing the full subject. If you're just doing shoulders and head, a prime on M43 will often provide ample blur. If I want a full body image, and I really want that isolation, I'll reach for the Sony. ... I use primes. If I used zooms - even fast zooms, I'd reach for the Sony more often. Tamron and Samyang both have those insane 35-150mm F2-2.8 FF zooms that are nearly a 1 lens do all for weddings, for which there is nothing close to equivalent in crop sensor land."

In the same reddit thread, someone mentioned a DoF simulator. Interesting to see the differences between different format, FL, and f-stop.

Also, there are suggestions on m43 workaround.
 
45/1.8 is a terrific portrait lens and its drawback is its secret: field curvature wide open enhances the shallow DoF, giving the subject more pop.

Mind, I like the 45/1.2 even more but at a mere 3X the price I should.

Hoping the 45 is included in the next OMS upgrade round--adding weatherproofing and a metal case.

Rick
The O 17mm f1.8 also has that same characteristic field curvature wide open. It's a double edged sword. Very nice, gentle, beautiful rendering when you have the subject and focus that takes advantage of it. But not as great when you don't... 🤣
 
a bit more harder than FF by the physic laws but totally sufficient in most cases.

first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait
first you don't need an ultra wide aperture all the time ! autoportrait

second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses
second, yes you can have great bokeh in M4/3 world , there is plenty of good lenses

third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4
third, with cheap lenses like 45 1.8 but even better with mighty pro lenses 1.2 or sigma 56mm1.4

they works all very well and help you is low light conditions
they works all very well and help you is low light conditions

i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm
i'm perfectly happy with M4/3 ... FF for me has advantage with semi to wide angle lenses but my taste is 50mm or 90mm

the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really
the pro lenses especially have a elegant rendering ...really

isnt it ?
isnt it ?

i adore what i can have with M4/3
i adore what i can have with M4/3

thanks all
thanks all
You'll only ever get that amount of subject separation in M43 by cutting off the subject's body and filling the frame, removing all context. This series is a great demonstration of that.
If you want to add the context back in, then you don't need as much depth of field.

As the previous poster in this thread mentioned, full frame has an advantage when it comes to wide angles (24-40mm), but for anything longer than that (50-90mm especially), then M4/3 is more than enough already.

You can still have subject separation with some of the pro f/1.2 lenses, even with wide angle stuff. It all depends on the amount of subject separation that you want though, if you want obliterate the background (and the "context" at the same time), then sure, you need full frame and fast glass.

--
(G.A.S. and collectionnite will get my skin one day)
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this
because the sensor is smaller (e.g. phone sensors are smaller still and struggle to achieve any background blur in portraits without additional computational changes)
and is it really a problem for portraits?
depends how much OOF blur you want, and whether you're prepared to adapt

in general, assuming nothing else changes, your m43 lens will need to be 1/2 the focal length and twice as bright to achieve the same (equivalent) image as your FF gear

so taking your 85mm lens as an example, you need a 42.5mm m43 lens (a 45mm will achieve a FOV similar to a 90mm FF lens)

the aperture also needs to be halved to achieve similar background blur (again assuming everything else is equal - cameras, subjects, backgrounds all in the same position)

so if your FF lens has a max aperture of 1.8, and you shoot wide open, you would need a m43 lens with an aperture of 0.9 approx
These lenses exist - f0.95 - in the form of manual focus lenses made by several Chinese firms.
i tried a couple of these lenses and wide open they're... full of ""character"" at best

and trying to take photos of playing kids, or even just kids, with a MF lens is futile, at least for this unskilled practitioner. i'm sure there are lots on here that will nail eye focus every time with a MF 0.95 lens, better than the best AF algos

and what if you want the equivalent of f1.4, or f1.2 FF? any f0.6 Chinese lenses? and even if there were, how many shots would you get in focus?

we can discuss this all we want but ultimately it boils down to all things equal, larger sensor = less DOF, ergo depending on the look you want pick the sensor to suit

yes there are plenty of situations where m43 is "enough" as is so often maintained on here. but there are a fair number of situations where m43 simply is not enough, or requires too many workarounds, or gear that is unnecessarily large and expensive

and that's all before even discussing the added IQ benefit of FF

m43 is indeed "enough" in many cases and i'm a big fan, but why are we trying to pretend that it matches FF in this or that regard?

it doesn't. hence why different formats exist in the first place
Starting to get to the situation at wide open where actual photographic skill is necessary* when portrait nose and eye are not in focus at the same time. Surely background blur as much as anyone could need. But f1.2 should be plenty and there are many of them available in M4/3 mount - most of them have automatic focus.

* don't blame the lens.
and therein lies the "problem"

you'll likely get a bunch of unnecessarily long and complicated responses, or workarounds, but this is what it boils down to
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this
because the sensor is smaller (e.g. phone sensors are smaller still and struggle to achieve any background blur in portraits without additional computational changes)
and is it really a problem for portraits?
depends how much OOF blur you want, and whether you're prepared to adapt

in general, assuming nothing else changes, your m43 lens will need to be 1/2 the focal length and twice as bright to achieve the same (equivalent) image as your FF gear

so taking your 85mm lens as an example, you need a 42.5mm m43 lens (a 45mm will achieve a FOV similar to a 90mm FF lens)

the aperture also needs to be halved to achieve similar background blur (again assuming everything else is equal - cameras, subjects, backgrounds all in the same position)

so if your FF lens has a max aperture of 1.8, and you shoot wide open, you would need a m43 lens with an aperture of 0.9 approx
These lenses exist - f0.95 - in the form of manual focus lenses made by several Chinese firms.
i tried a couple of these lenses and wide open they're... full of ""character"" at best

and trying to take photos of playing kids, or even just kids, with a MF lens is futile, at least for this unskilled practitioner. i'm sure there are lots on here that will nail eye focus every time with a MF 0.95 lens, better than the best AF algos

and what if you want the equivalent of f1.4, or f1.2 FF? any f0.6 Chinese lenses? and even if there were, how many shots would you get in focus?

we can discuss this all we want but ultimately it boils down to all things equal, larger sensor = less DOF, ergo depending on the look you want pick the sensor to suit

yes there are plenty of situations where m43 is "enough" as is so often maintained on here. but there are a fair number of situations where m43 simply is not enough, or requires too many workarounds, or gear that is unnecessarily large and expensive

and that's all before even discussing the added IQ benefit of FF

m43 is indeed "enough" in many cases and i'm a big fan, but why are we trying to pretend that it matches FF in this or that regard?

it doesn't. hence why different formats exist in the first place
Starting to get to the situation at wide open where actual photographic skill is necessary* when portrait nose and eye are not in focus at the same time. Surely background blur as much as anyone could need. But f1.2 should be plenty and there are many of them available in M4/3 mount - most of them have automatic focus.

* don't blame the lens.
and therein lies the "problem"

you'll likely get a bunch of unnecessarily long and complicated responses, or workarounds, but this is what it boils down to
I agree completely.

There is no M43 lens that can match a 50mm f1.4 lens in terms.of shallow DOF even using a low quality Chinese MF lens.

Instead of accepting this clear optical fact, you will get very defensive replies and shots trying to show a blurred background etc. using an adapted or telephoto lens at a specific subject distance.

So -if I have a FF 50mm AF f1.4 or faster lens please would someone tell me what the M43 equivalent is please without trying to convince people.that too much out of focus is not attractive?
 
I enjoy portrait photography, especially with Nikon 85mm and 105mm lenses on full-frame cameras.

My gear is old and needs an upgrade. I'm considering M4/3 systems because of their size.

I read that M4/3 lenses don't generate a shallow DOF, something which is useful for portraits.

Why exactly is this and is it really a problem for portraits?
My suggestion is, keep the lenses and get a cheap Z6ii or a z5.

It's the cheapest and most efficient way for portraits.

If you want more general photography get a z5ii.

If you want to check m43, is another story.
 

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