What I want to see in a future “Pen F”

Bassam Guy said:

NowHearThis said:

Bassam Guy said:

oneofone25 said:

What would you like to see in a new Pen F model? ...

...

Click to expand...

Does the OM-3 have all features that you can reasonably expect to find in a Pen F II? Do you believe that they could fit in a smaller body? With EVF (F series)? Without (P series)?

Click to expand...

I don't think that's the right question...



I think the right question is: how come others can put in bigger sensors, and great features in bodies similar in size to the old Pen-F and why can't we improve the Pen-F without increasing the size?

FFS, the A7RC is no bigger than an A6700 or my old NEX7. If others can miniaturize their cameras, OM System can too. That said, if OM System has to make the Pen-F Mk II as thick as an A6700 I don't think most would complain if we can get something that can match it and even outperform it in some areas for the same price. I'll welcome the extra 3mm of body thickness for that.

Click to expand...

Wrong interpretation. I did not imply that it was or was not possible.

Click to expand...

No, it just begged this question. The short answer to your question is: Yes. A new sensor doesn't take up extra size, better AF won't take up room, I doubt the IBIS assembly on an OM3 is much bigger than the one in the Pen-F. The Pen-F EVF has room work with given it's on the outside corner... so yeah, it seems totally possible.

My example is showing that people are putting larger to much larger sensors and great features in bodies similar to Pen-F, size-wise.

--
NHT

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

oneofone25 said:

What would you like to see in a new Pen F model? ..

Click to expand...

First don't fix what isn't broken.

• The design and style need to be similar to the original
• No functions can be missing
• Build has to be top-shelf (improve the glue or mounting of the thumb rest)

Add Features that don't increase the size.

• Add a command wheel around the D-Pad
• Open up nearly the entire menu to be changed on the function buttons. People should be able to customize this any way they want without limitations.
• Keep the same ECG-1 Grip if possible but drop the cost. If SmallRig can make a $40 grip for the Nikon Zf you can make one just as inexpensive for the Pen-F2.

Improve what needs improving. Things that have been on the "cons" list of Olympus camera reviews need to finally be resolved once and for all.

• AF. Tracking AF needs to be excellent. I prefer Cluster Area AF, but DPReview and others only care about Tracking AF, so improve every aspect of the AF system and make it nearly as good as Sony. It does not have to beat them, it just has to be so good that every reviewer says. "I won't miss a shot with this camera."
• Sensor: It's time to put the 20mp sensor, regardless of the tech, to rest. This should be a 27mp camera (6000x4500) with 3 HHHR modes (108mp, 67mp, 34mp and compensate for motion - to a degree). The sensor also needs to be fast with low rolling shutter.
• EVF: This needs to be among the best EVFs in a crop sensor camera.
• Battery life: Needs to be improved by ~20% so that you get somewhere between 380-400 shots per battery.
• LCD: No flip out only LCD. Ideally use the same design as the Fuji XT5, but if you have to have it articulate, then use the one from the Panasonic S1II
• Video: While this isn't my thing. You have to have both 4K30 and 4K60, Canon's $1200 R10 has 4K60, you do to, and all the video modes have to turn out great footage.
• AF Joystick: I'd like to see one and I'd prefer that rather than using the LCD or D-pad to move the AF point around

Lastly, OM System can't make Sony, Nikon, Canon, and Fuji laugh about the price, and they can't tick off customers.

Canon's R50V is $700, their R10 (which has an AF Joystick) is only $1200. Sony's A6700 flagship is selling for $1500 and has the best AF on any crop sensor camera. Fuji's T5 and XE5 are both $1700 but the XM5 is less than half that at $800. Nikon's Z30 is $700, the Z50II is $900 and the Zfc isn't much over $1000 on sale....

Bottom line is OM System can't have a $2000+ rangefinder-ish camera, They're not Leica. This has to be priced $1500 or less (Maybe $1600 with the 12-45/4).

If OM System can make a Pen-F Mark II with wicked fast and accurate AF, more resolution then budget APS-C cameras and give it hardware and software features that impress people for a reasonable price, (and properly market it), they'd do extremely well with it.

...

One more thing, because people like to make things "their own", do like the Nikon Zfc, or Pansonic S9 and have several "color" variations on the faux-leatherette grips - this would also include having matching external grips.

Click to expand...

Pretty easy to see that if all these “must haves” are costed out by OMDS and at your suggested price point, the profit margin isn’t what they deem desirable…… better not to build it at all.

Click to expand...

That's up to them. I don't think the profit margin is there for the Cameras like the R100, Z30, XM5... those cameras exist to get people into buying a brand, and then force them into sticking with the brand because they already invested in it. If OM System wants to ignore certain segments of the market, that up to them. I don't think I really asked for the world with my suggestions - and they are only that - a suggested wish list.

The only things that take up additional room on a new body are the Joystick, the EVF, and the LCD, but the LCD could take up less room by going with a Fuji XT5 style LCD - making enough room for the Joystick. I suppose the battery could potentially require the body to be thicker, but I'm ok with a few mm of extra thickness to get a bump in battery life over what my old Pen-F had - it might even improve the handling a bit.

Click to expand...

You add a little here, and add a little there, and a little more to accommodate a bigger battery….. and pretty soon you have the OM-3, just without the EVF. I would just detune the innards of the OM-5, stuff it into the body of an OM-10 and sell it for $899 with the 14-42 EZ and call the lineup done.

Click to expand...

You engineer things better here, you redesign the circuity there and now you have room for other things. As I mentioned, getting rid of the articulated LCD in favor of one like the XT5 makes room (by sliding the LCD to the left 1cm) for a joystick on the back. A wheel around the D-pad takes up no room that isn't already available, A new M43 sensor isn't going to be bigger than any other M43 sensor. Everything keep being made smaller and smaller, processors, computer chip, memory, yet for some reason The Pen-F is already busting at the seams and it can't be redesigned on the insides to accommodate anything else - even changing the sensor just requires reinventing the whole thing from scratch.... </sarcasm>

Sam Bennett said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

oneofone25 said:

What would you like to see in a new Pen F model? ..

Click to expand...

First don't fix what isn't broken.

• The design and style need to be similar to the original
• No functions can be missing
• Build has to be top-shelf (improve the glue or mounting of the thumb rest)

Add Features that don't increase the size.

• Add a command wheel around the D-Pad
• Open up nearly the entire menu to be changed on the function buttons. People should be able to customize this any way they want without limitations.
• Keep the same ECG-1 Grip if possible but drop the cost. If SmallRig can make a $40 grip for the Nikon Zf you can make one just as inexpensive for the Pen-F2.

Improve what needs improving. Things that have been on the "cons" list of Olympus camera reviews need to finally be resolved once and for all.

• AF. Tracking AF needs to be excellent. I prefer Cluster Area AF, but DPReview and others only care about Tracking AF, so improve every aspect of the AF system and make it nearly as good as Sony. It does not have to beat them, it just has to be so good that every reviewer says. "I won't miss a shot with this camera."
• Sensor: It's time to put the 20mp sensor, regardless of the tech, to rest. This should be a 27mp camera (6000x4500) with 3 HHHR modes (108mp, 67mp, 34mp and compensate for motion - to a degree). The sensor also needs to be fast with low rolling shutter.
• EVF: This needs to be among the best EVFs in a crop sensor camera.
• Battery life: Needs to be improved by ~20% so that you get somewhere between 380-400 shots per battery.
• LCD: No flip out only LCD. Ideally use the same design as the Fuji XT5, but if you have to have it articulate, then use the one from the Panasonic S1II
• Video: While this isn't my thing. You have to have both 4K30 and 4K60, Canon's $1200 R10 has 4K60, you do to, and all the video modes have to turn out great footage.
• AF Joystick: I'd like to see one and I'd prefer that rather than using the LCD or D-pad to move the AF point around

Lastly, OM System can't make Sony, Nikon, Canon, and Fuji laugh about the price, and they can't tick off customers.

Canon's R50V is $700, their R10 (which has an AF Joystick) is only $1200. Sony's A6700 flagship is selling for $1500 and has the best AF on any crop sensor camera. Fuji's T5 and XE5 are both $1700 but the XM5 is less than half that at $800. Nikon's Z30 is $700, the Z50II is $900 and the Zfc isn't much over $1000 on sale....

Bottom line is OM System can't have a $2000+ rangefinder-ish camera, They're not Leica. This has to be priced $1500 or less (Maybe $1600 with the 12-45/4).

If OM System can make a Pen-F Mark II with wicked fast and accurate AF, more resolution then budget APS-C cameras and give it hardware and software features that impress people for a reasonable price, (and properly market it), they'd do extremely well with it.

...

One more thing, because people like to make things "their own", do like the Nikon Zfc, or Pansonic S9 and have several "color" variations on the faux-leatherette grips - this would also include having matching external grips.

Click to expand...

Pretty easy to see that if all these “must haves” are costed out by OMDS and at your suggested price point, the profit margin isn’t what they deem desirable…… better not to build it at all.

Click to expand...

That's up to them. I don't think the profit margin is there for the Cameras like the R100, Z30, XM5... those cameras exist to get people into buying a brand, and then force them into sticking with the brand because they already invested in it. If OM System wants to ignore certain segments of the market, that up to them. I don't think I really asked for the world with my suggestions - and they are only that - a suggested wish list.

The only things that take up additional room on a new body are the Joystick, the EVF, and the LCD, but the LCD could take up less room by going with a Fuji XT5 style LCD - making enough room for the Joystick. I suppose the battery could potentially require the body to be thicker, but I'm ok with a few mm of extra thickness to get a bump in battery life over what my old Pen-F had - it might even improve the handling a bit.

Click to expand...

You add a little here, and add a little there, and a little more to accommodate a bigger battery….. and pretty soon you have the OM-3, just without the EVF. I would just detune the innards of the OM-5, stuff it into the body of an OM-10 and sell it for $899 with the 14-42 EZ and call the lineup done.

Click to expand...

I can't find it right now, but there's an image out there showing how they went from having something the size of the OM-1 Mark II to squeezing it all into the OM-3. It's... tight in there.

And of course, many of the cameras shown up above have had to make design compromises to hit that size. The S9 doesn't have a mechanical shutter, for instance.

Click to expand...

Exactly, The S9 has a sensor that's 4x larger - look how much room that takes up, every one of the cameras I listed has bigger sensors, bigger batteries, yet they made them small. Most of what I was looking for was exterior changes that require little interior room loss, a new M43 sensor takes up no more room than the old one. The 2 largest things are the EVF - external on the corner and it already sticks up above the body a little anyway - no big deal if it does a little bit more, And a battery change if a new larger capacity one can't be made with the same dimensions - I do find it odd that after a decade of having that battery that a new one that a little better can't be made, that seems either defeatist or sus to me.

The rest is just software.

Jaime100 said:

gary0319 said:

Another let’s all pray for the dead, but not buried.

Click to expand...

I have never had a Pen F (well, technically yes with a film Pen F Half-frame).... but I have to ask the Pen Fer's here as to what they really object to with the OM3 that is so disliking that they still can't get over the Pen F? Is it really just RF for Hooded retro look?

Click to expand...

It's the size, and the form factor for sliding it in/out of a jacket pocket without catching on the hump:



I do not think it is possible to squeeze the innards of an OM3 into a Pen-F

A Pen-F2 would necessarily have lesser specifications than an OM3

Even squeezing the smaller OM5 innards into a Pen-F would be a major challenge, but I think this should be the aim.

Jaime100 said:

If so..... there are other RF camera's out there in other brands so why not just shift to one of those and have your Pen fix?

Click to expand...

There are. The problem for most people, is they are locked into that lens system they spent lots of money on.

Jaime100 said:

Also, just by reading this small thread on the Pen F, take note...... how many people differ in just about everything. Everything...... Maybe that is one reason why OM won't do a complete Pen F for people are so splintered on the needs that a new Pen F will come out and everyone will complain.

Click to expand...

That is the same problem for any camera. What makes it more difficult in this case, is that a Pen-F2 will invariably be compared to it's predecessor. Which did set a very high bar with regards to size, timeless design and build quality. It's hard to match, very hard to beat. Consider, when the Pen-F was designed (in the 2 or 3 years before it's release in early 2016) Olympus had plenty of money to invest in it's R&D. OM today, will have to to with a minuscule fraction of that money.

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

oneofone25 said:

What would you like to see in a new Pen F model? ..

Click to expand...

First don't fix what isn't broken.

• The design and style need to be similar to the original
• No functions can be missing
• Build has to be top-shelf (improve the glue or mounting of the thumb rest)

Add Features that don't increase the size.

• Add a command wheel around the D-Pad
• Open up nearly the entire menu to be changed on the function buttons. People should be able to customize this any way they want without limitations.
• Keep the same ECG-1 Grip if possible but drop the cost. If SmallRig can make a $40 grip for the Nikon Zf you can make one just as inexpensive for the Pen-F2.

Improve what needs improving. Things that have been on the "cons" list of Olympus camera reviews need to finally be resolved once and for all.

• AF. Tracking AF needs to be excellent. I prefer Cluster Area AF, but DPReview and others only care about Tracking AF, so improve every aspect of the AF system and make it nearly as good as Sony. It does not have to beat them, it just has to be so good that every reviewer says. "I won't miss a shot with this camera."
• Sensor: It's time to put the 20mp sensor, regardless of the tech, to rest. This should be a 27mp camera (6000x4500) with 3 HHHR modes (108mp, 67mp, 34mp and compensate for motion - to a degree). The sensor also needs to be fast with low rolling shutter.
• EVF: This needs to be among the best EVFs in a crop sensor camera.
• Battery life: Needs to be improved by ~20% so that you get somewhere between 380-400 shots per battery.
• LCD: No flip out only LCD. Ideally use the same design as the Fuji XT5, but if you have to have it articulate, then use the one from the Panasonic S1II
• Video: While this isn't my thing. You have to have both 4K30 and 4K60, Canon's $1200 R10 has 4K60, you do to, and all the video modes have to turn out great footage.
• AF Joystick: I'd like to see one and I'd prefer that rather than using the LCD or D-pad to move the AF point around

Lastly, OM System can't make Sony, Nikon, Canon, and Fuji laugh about the price, and they can't tick off customers.

Canon's R50V is $700, their R10 (which has an AF Joystick) is only $1200. Sony's A6700 flagship is selling for $1500 and has the best AF on any crop sensor camera. Fuji's T5 and XE5 are both $1700 but the XM5 is less than half that at $800. Nikon's Z30 is $700, the Z50II is $900 and the Zfc isn't much over $1000 on sale....

Bottom line is OM System can't have a $2000+ rangefinder-ish camera, They're not Leica. This has to be priced $1500 or less (Maybe $1600 with the 12-45/4).

If OM System can make a Pen-F Mark II with wicked fast and accurate AF, more resolution then budget APS-C cameras and give it hardware and software features that impress people for a reasonable price, (and properly market it), they'd do extremely well with it.

...

One more thing, because people like to make things "their own", do like the Nikon Zfc, or Pansonic S9 and have several "color" variations on the faux-leatherette grips - this would also include having matching external grips.

Click to expand...

Pretty easy to see that if all these “must haves” are costed out by OMDS and at your suggested price point, the profit margin isn’t what they deem desirable…… better not to build it at all.

Click to expand...

That's up to them. I don't think the profit margin is there for the Cameras like the R100, Z30, XM5... those cameras exist to get people into buying a brand, and then force them into sticking with the brand because they already invested in it. If OM System wants to ignore certain segments of the market, that up to them. I don't think I really asked for the world with my suggestions - and they are only that - a suggested wish list.

The only things that take up additional room on a new body are the Joystick, the EVF, and the LCD, but the LCD could take up less room by going with a Fuji XT5 style LCD - making enough room for the Joystick. I suppose the battery could potentially require the body to be thicker, but I'm ok with a few mm of extra thickness to get a bump in battery life over what my old Pen-F had - it might even improve the handling a bit.

Click to expand...

You add a little here, and add a little there, and a little more to accommodate a bigger battery….. and pretty soon you have the OM-3, just without the EVF. I would just detune the innards of the OM-5, stuff it into the body of an OM-10 and sell it for $899 with the 14-42 EZ and call the lineup done.

Click to expand...

You engineer things better here, you redesign the circuity there and now you have room for other things. As I mentioned, getting rid of the articulated LCD in favor of one like the XT5 makes room (by sliding the LCD to the left 1cm) for a joystick on the back. A wheel around the D-pad takes up no room that isn't already available, A new M43 sensor isn't going to be bigger than any other M43 sensor. Everything keep being made smaller and smaller, processors, computer chip, memory, yet for some reason The Pen-F is already busting at the seams and it can't be redesigned on the insides to accommodate anything else - even changing the sensor just requires reinventing the whole thing from scratch.... </sarcasm>

Click to expand...

As you said change the LCD (new body), add a ring around the 4 way (has there ever been an OM camera with this, I can hear the cat calls, now). And don't forget all the other stuff that every one of the Monday morning engineers want thrown in.

Yup, reinvention aright from the ground up...........by OMDS???? Give me a break.

cba_melbourne said:

Jaime100 said:

gary0319 said:

Another let’s all pray for the dead, but not buried.

Click to expand...

I have never had a Pen F (well, technically yes with a film Pen F Half-frame).... but I have to ask the Pen Fer's here as to what they really object to with the OM3 that is so disliking that they still can't get over the Pen F? Is it really just RF for Hooded retro look?

Click to expand...

It's the size, and the form factor for sliding it in/out of a jacket pocket without catching on the hump:



I do not think it is possible to squeeze the innards of an OM3 into a Pen-F

Click to expand...

Actually I believe it's possible for everything but the battery. One of the reasons why teh OM-3 is so large is because they chose to use the same large battery as the OM-1, which takes up almost the entirety of the camera's internal space left of the lens mount.

The Pen-F used the very old BLN-1, and if such a camera was made today, it would no doubt use the BLS-50.

cba_melbourne said:

A Pen-F2 would necessarily have lesser specifications than an OM3

Even squeezing the smaller OM5 innards into a Pen-F would be a major challenge, but I think this should be the aim.

cba_melbourne said:

If so..... there are other RF camera's out there in other brands so why not just shift to one of those and have your Pen fix?

Click to expand...

There are. The problem for most people, is they are locked into that lens system they spent lots of money on.

cba_melbourne said:

Also, just by reading this small thread on the Pen F, take note...... how many people differ in just about everything. Everything...... Maybe that is one reason why OM won't do a complete Pen F for people are so splintered on the needs that a new Pen F will come out and everyone will complain.

Click to expand...

That is the same problem for any camera. What makes it more difficult in this case, is that a Pen-F2 will invariably be compared to it's predecessor. Which did set a very high bar with regards to size, timeless design and build quality. It's hard to match, very hard to beat. Consider, when the Pen-F was designed (in the 2 or 3 years before it's release in early 2016) Olympus had plenty of money to invest in it's R&D. OM today, will have to to with a minuscule fraction of that money.

Click to expand...

Olympus went above and beyond with the design of the Pen-F, but it clearly wasn't necessary. They went with a design with no apaprent screws as a bit of a flex. At the same time, forgetting to add weather sealing to the camera.

I would say my X-Pro2 is every bit as well build and as timeless as the Pen-F, even with visible screws. I think OM System could manage to repackage the innards of an OM-1 once more in a smaller package, they already did pretty brilliantly with the OM-3, they can do it again.

--
(G.A.S. and collectionnite will get my skin one day)

Jaime100 said:

AlmostDoctor said:

- Add option for film grain.

Click to expand...

Why can't digital folks just accept the digital look? Why are they always after different film modes and looking for grain etc in their digital gear? Heck, if you want film, shoot film. Or embrace digital for what it is....

Forget Digital....shoot film.

Click to expand...

Some people like random film grain, so they can add it to their taste

Some people like a.i. denoise artifacts, so thy can add it to their taste

What is the difference?

I can see nothing wrong with either. We all have different tastes, do we?

Edward Lowy said:

You either get it or you don’t. I quite understand YMMV. I’m with Guy Parsons actually that E-P5 was the essence of PEN. Absolutely love mine, bought the PEN-F about 7 years ago on eBay and it is my everyday camera, but love to go back to the E-P5 from time to time. Bought an OM1 as thought I should grow up, but it isn’t for me. Currently on holiday in Greece, wondered about bringing the OM1 to get better acquainted, but it never came close to getting on the plane.

Click to expand...

Yes, still stuck with my E-P5 pair as my "main" camera. The backup/carry-along is the Sony RX100M6, so I can get away with using a light wide angle kit for M4/3 (6mm plus 8-18mm) and then get up to "200mm" with the Sony. Worked a treat for me with a 6 week trip to Ireland and England way back when I was fitter.

Next trip is a short introductory trip to China, so 12 days and need to keep is simple as I'm older and creakier but again it will be based on my E-P5. Trying to decide on whether to take the black one or the silver one.

I did buy a super cheap E-M10 Mk2 but as I never use an EVF any more then that hump on top is simply an inconvenience in my small bag. Plus I do not like the crazy layout and fiddlyness of the controls, so it's always the E-P5 for me, it is much smoother and faster to use.

One time when the Pen-F was heavily discounted in Australia I did take a look in the local camera shop, passed that one, as the Pen-F was a clunky retro beast beside the well designed E-P5. Sorry to upset the Pen-F lovers but it simply was not for me. The lack of behind the body tilt screen was the main killer factor.

So it looks like E-P5 for me forever.

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

oneofone25 said:

What would you like to see in a new Pen F model? ..

Click to expand...

First don't fix what isn't broken.

• The design and style need to be similar to the original
• No functions can be missing
• Build has to be top-shelf (improve the glue or mounting of the thumb rest)

Add Features that don't increase the size.

• Add a command wheel around the D-Pad
• Open up nearly the entire menu to be changed on the function buttons. People should be able to customize this any way they want without limitations.
• Keep the same ECG-1 Grip if possible but drop the cost. If SmallRig can make a $40 grip for the Nikon Zf you can make one just as inexpensive for the Pen-F2.

Improve what needs improving. Things that have been on the "cons" list of Olympus camera reviews need to finally be resolved once and for all.

• AF. Tracking AF needs to be excellent. I prefer Cluster Area AF, but DPReview and others only care about Tracking AF, so improve every aspect of the AF system and make it nearly as good as Sony. It does not have to beat them, it just has to be so good that every reviewer says. "I won't miss a shot with this camera."
• Sensor: It's time to put the 20mp sensor, regardless of the tech, to rest. This should be a 27mp camera (6000x4500) with 3 HHHR modes (108mp, 67mp, 34mp and compensate for motion - to a degree). The sensor also needs to be fast with low rolling shutter.
• EVF: This needs to be among the best EVFs in a crop sensor camera.
• Battery life: Needs to be improved by ~20% so that you get somewhere between 380-400 shots per battery.
• LCD: No flip out only LCD. Ideally use the same design as the Fuji XT5, but if you have to have it articulate, then use the one from the Panasonic S1II
• Video: While this isn't my thing. You have to have both 4K30 and 4K60, Canon's $1200 R10 has 4K60, you do to, and all the video modes have to turn out great footage.
• AF Joystick: I'd like to see one and I'd prefer that rather than using the LCD or D-pad to move the AF point around

Lastly, OM System can't make Sony, Nikon, Canon, and Fuji laugh about the price, and they can't tick off customers.

Canon's R50V is $700, their R10 (which has an AF Joystick) is only $1200. Sony's A6700 flagship is selling for $1500 and has the best AF on any crop sensor camera. Fuji's T5 and XE5 are both $1700 but the XM5 is less than half that at $800. Nikon's Z30 is $700, the Z50II is $900 and the Zfc isn't much over $1000 on sale....

Bottom line is OM System can't have a $2000+ rangefinder-ish camera, They're not Leica. This has to be priced $1500 or less (Maybe $1600 with the 12-45/4).

If OM System can make a Pen-F Mark II with wicked fast and accurate AF, more resolution then budget APS-C cameras and give it hardware and software features that impress people for a reasonable price, (and properly market it), they'd do extremely well with it.

...

One more thing, because people like to make things "their own", do like the Nikon Zfc, or Pansonic S9 and have several "color" variations on the faux-leatherette grips - this would also include having matching external grips.

Click to expand...

Pretty easy to see that if all these “must haves” are costed out by OMDS and at your suggested price point, the profit margin isn’t what they deem desirable…… better not to build it at all.

Click to expand...

That's up to them. I don't think the profit margin is there for the Cameras like the R100, Z30, XM5... those cameras exist to get people into buying a brand, and then force them into sticking with the brand because they already invested in it. If OM System wants to ignore certain segments of the market, that up to them. I don't think I really asked for the world with my suggestions - and they are only that - a suggested wish list.

The only things that take up additional room on a new body are the Joystick, the EVF, and the LCD, but the LCD could take up less room by going with a Fuji XT5 style LCD - making enough room for the Joystick. I suppose the battery could potentially require the body to be thicker, but I'm ok with a few mm of extra thickness to get a bump in battery life over what my old Pen-F had - it might even improve the handling a bit.

Click to expand...

You add a little here, and add a little there, and a little more to accommodate a bigger battery….. and pretty soon you have the OM-3, just without the EVF. I would just detune the innards of the OM-5, stuff it into the body of an OM-10 and sell it for $899 with the 14-42 EZ and call the lineup done.

Click to expand...

You engineer things better here, you redesign the circuity there and now you have room for other things. As I mentioned, getting rid of the articulated LCD in favor of one like the XT5 makes room (by sliding the LCD to the left 1cm) for a joystick on the back. A wheel around the D-pad takes up no room that isn't already available, A new M43 sensor isn't going to be bigger than any other M43 sensor. Everything keep being made smaller and smaller, processors, computer chip, memory, yet for some reason The Pen-F is already busting at the seams and it can't be redesigned on the insides to accommodate anything else - even changing the sensor just requires reinventing the whole thing from scratch.... </sarcasm>

Click to expand...

Miniaturization requires very costly R&D. So does reduction of power consumption. What you suggest can mean bringing some or all camera electronics down to the miniaturization level of phones.

Phones can afford doing it, because they sell a couple billions each year. ILC cameras only sell 7 mio each year, of which OM maybe 200,000 cameras each year.

Phones can simply invest 100 times more money into R&D. And they can do so year after year after year. Whereas OM needs to focus at surviving financially the next month.

This video shows you the insides of a Pen-F:



Compare that to the circuit boards inside a much smaller iPhone 16. The technology gap is huge. But this is what you are heading towards, if you want to squeeze OM3 innards into a Pen-F body. Cause the current OM1-OM3 technology simply wont fit in there. And that means seriously big R&D investments, that can never be recouped by selling a measely 5 or 10,000 PenF2's for $3 or 4k. :

Long reply! Thanks for reading if you do!

No one has mentioned Japan, the home market. No point in making a camera that will sell well in the first round to loyal fans and then… The base salary in Japan is 268,177 yen; that’s monthly. (About US$1,800) Adjusted for inflation purchasing power is down 2.9% YTD through May. The Japanese consumer is not happy. Tomorrow is an important election in Japan. (July 20, 2025)

There is one MAP Camera store that is noted for its influence in the camera market, especially for quality and high value used cameras. There are 23 Yodobashi Camera stores, 260 Bic Camera stores, and 900 Kitamura Camera stores in Japan. All the manufacturers know what their customers are buying. Even if the Japanese camera market is a small percentage of global sales, you must succeed in your home market.

The high-quality OM-3 is the PEN F replacement with a cool retro style design, bundled with a lot of good tech. The size is fine with all the features that are packed into the OM-3.
There won’t be a new range finder style PEN F. It would be too expensive for too small of a market. Those days are now gone.

However, an updated E-P7 would be awesome. It should follow the GR philosophy and not increase in size at all. I’d like a couple of things that could be done such as adding a Custom spot on the mode dial for one. And add an EVF attachment as an accessory. It should remain simple to attract new and younger budding photographers. It does not need all the features of a more expensive camera and needs to be well below 1,000 euros, US$1000, etc. It must be a camera that will sell well in Japan. OM System is not going to produce a camera that has no chance of continued success on the home ground. 150,000 yen is a lot of money for a young person buying a camera.

I have the trifecta, a PEN F, an E-P7, & an OM-3. Very happy with all three. :-D

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

gary0319 said:

NowHearThis said:

oneofone25 said:

What would you like to see in a new Pen F model? ..

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First don't fix what isn't broken.

• The design and style need to be similar to the original
• No functions can be missing
• Build has to be top-shelf (improve the glue or mounting of the thumb rest)

Add Features that don't increase the size.

• Add a command wheel around the D-Pad
• Open up nearly the entire menu to be changed on the function buttons. People should be able to customize this any way they want without limitations.
• Keep the same ECG-1 Grip if possible but drop the cost. If SmallRig can make a $40 grip for the Nikon Zf you can make one just as inexpensive for the Pen-F2.

Improve what needs improving. Things that have been on the "cons" list of Olympus camera reviews need to finally be resolved once and for all.

• AF. Tracking AF needs to be excellent. I prefer Cluster Area AF, but DPReview and others only care about Tracking AF, so improve every aspect of the AF system and make it nearly as good as Sony. It does not have to beat them, it just has to be so good that every reviewer says. "I won't miss a shot with this camera."
• Sensor: It's time to put the 20mp sensor, regardless of the tech, to rest. This should be a 27mp camera (6000x4500) with 3 HHHR modes (108mp, 67mp, 34mp and compensate for motion - to a degree). The sensor also needs to be fast with low rolling shutter.
• EVF: This needs to be among the best EVFs in a crop sensor camera.
• Battery life: Needs to be improved by ~20% so that you get somewhere between 380-400 shots per battery.
• LCD: No flip out only LCD. Ideally use the same design as the Fuji XT5, but if you have to have it articulate, then use the one from the Panasonic S1II
• Video: While this isn't my thing. You have to have both 4K30 and 4K60, Canon's $1200 R10 has 4K60, you do to, and all the video modes have to turn out great footage.
• AF Joystick: I'd like to see one and I'd prefer that rather than using the LCD or D-pad to move the AF point around

Lastly, OM System can't make Sony, Nikon, Canon, and Fuji laugh about the price, and they can't tick off customers.

Canon's R50V is $700, their R10 (which has an AF Joystick) is only $1200. Sony's A6700 flagship is selling for $1500 and has the best AF on any crop sensor camera. Fuji's T5 and XE5 are both $1700 but the XM5 is less than half that at $800. Nikon's Z30 is $700, the Z50II is $900 and the Zfc isn't much over $1000 on sale....

Bottom line is OM System can't have a $2000+ rangefinder-ish camera, They're not Leica. This has to be priced $1500 or less (Maybe $1600 with the 12-45/4).

If OM System can make a Pen-F Mark II with wicked fast and accurate AF, more resolution then budget APS-C cameras and give it hardware and software features that impress people for a reasonable price, (and properly market it), they'd do extremely well with it.

...

One more thing, because people like to make things "their own", do like the Nikon Zfc, or Pansonic S9 and have several "color" variations on the faux-leatherette grips - this would also include having matching external grips.

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Pretty easy to see that if all these “must haves” are costed out by OMDS and at your suggested price point, the profit margin isn’t what they deem desirable…… better not to build it at all.

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That's up to them. I don't think the profit margin is there for the Cameras like the R100, Z30, XM5... those cameras exist to get people into buying a brand, and then force them into sticking with the brand because they already invested in it. If OM System wants to ignore certain segments of the market, that up to them. I don't think I really asked for the world with my suggestions - and they are only that - a suggested wish list.

The only things that take up additional room on a new body are the Joystick, the EVF, and the LCD, but the LCD could take up less room by going with a Fuji XT5 style LCD - making enough room for the Joystick. I suppose the battery could potentially require the body to be thicker, but I'm ok with a few mm of extra thickness to get a bump in battery life over what my old Pen-F had - it might even improve the handling a bit.

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You add a little here, and add a little there, and a little more to accommodate a bigger battery….. and pretty soon you have the OM-3, just without the EVF. I would just detune the innards of the OM-5, stuff it into the body of an OM-10 and sell it for $899 with the 14-42 EZ and call the lineup done.

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You engineer things better here, you redesign the circuity there and now you have room for other things. As I mentioned, getting rid of the articulated LCD in favor of one like the XT5 makes room (by sliding the LCD to the left 1cm) for a joystick on the back. A wheel around the D-pad takes up no room that isn't already available, A new M43 sensor isn't going to be bigger than any other M43 sensor. Everything keep being made smaller and smaller, processors, computer chip, memory, yet for some reason The Pen-F is already busting at the seams and it can't be redesigned on the insides to accommodate anything else - even changing the sensor just requires reinventing the whole thing from scratch.... </sarcasm>

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As you said change the LCD (new body), add a ring around the 4 way (has there ever been an OM camera with this, I can hear the cat calls, now). And don't forget all the other stuff that every one of the Monday morning engineers want thrown in.

Yup, reinvention aright from the ground up...........by OMDS???? Give me a break.

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I'm not going to give you a break, feel free to move on though. The OP in his first 11 words asked what we would like to see in a new PEN-F. I don't know why you get so triggered and offended by people wanting things in a camera. I have every right to post, "what I'd like" regardless of what feeling of yours it offends - even though, for a sane person, it wouldn't. I do hope the rest of your day is as pleasant as you have been.

Japanese companies pride themselves being able to sell products within their own country

it is quite obvious that the OM1 is targeted for birders that reside outside of Japan and it's back up camera is a little OM 5

The retro styling of the Om3 she's nicely in the Japanese market along with the budget conscious EP-7.

Most forum members here just don't get it and think that it all should be about their personal wants. But I guess that is a result of the loss of community spirit in most affluent Western nations.

imi100 said:

Japanese companies pride themselves being able to sell products within their own country

it is quite obvious that the OM1 is targeted for birders that reside outside of Japan and it's back up camera is a little OM 5

The retro styling of the Om3 she's nicely in the Japanese market along with the budget conscious EP-7.

Most forum members here just don't get it and think that it all should be about their personal wants. But I guess that is a result of the loss of community spirit in most affluent Western nations.

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you are right....it isn't about the Western nations, it is about what sells in Japan. Remember that OM said they would look at updating the Pen or at least keep the idea on the back burner but that doesn't imply the Pen F....most likely it is taking the already popular camera in Japan; the EP7 ....and updating it. THAT would make the most sense.

The OM3 is the PenF replacement, the EP8 will be the updated Pen. Face it....

Jaime100 said:

imi100 said:

Japanese companies pride themselves being able to sell products within their own country

it is quite obvious that the OM1 is targeted for birders that reside outside of Japan and it's back up camera is a little OM 5

The retro styling of the Om3 she's nicely in the Japanese market along with the budget conscious EP-7.

Most forum members here just don't get it and think that it all should be about their personal wants. But I guess that is a result of the loss of community spirit in most affluent Western nations.

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you are right....it isn't about the Western nations, it is about what sells in Japan. Remember that OM said they would look at updating the Pen or at least keep the idea on the back burner but that doesn't imply the Pen F....most likely it is taking the already popular camera in Japan; the EP7 ....and updating it. THAT would make the most sense.

The OM3 is the PenF replacement, the EP8 will be the updated Pen. Face it....

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That is everything I said. Did you read my post?

Everyone has their own interpretation on what OMDS said regarding the future of a PEN F.

Promeneur said:

Jaime100 said:

imi100 said:

Japanese companies pride themselves being able to sell products within their own country

it is quite obvious that the OM1 is targeted for birders that reside outside of Japan and it's back up camera is a little OM 5

The retro styling of the Om3 she's nicely in the Japanese market along with the budget conscious EP-7.

Most forum members here just don't get it and think that it all should be about their personal wants. But I guess that is a result of the loss of community spirit in most affluent Western nations.

Click to expand...

you are right....it isn't about the Western nations, it is about what sells in Japan. Remember that OM said they would look at updating the Pen or at least keep the idea on the back burner but that doesn't imply the Pen F....most likely it is taking the already popular camera in Japan; the EP7 ....and updating it. THAT would make the most sense.

The OM3 is the PenF replacement, the EP8 will be the updated Pen. Face it....

Click to expand...

That is everything I said. Did you read my post?

Everyone has their own interpretation on what OMDS said regarding the future of a PEN F.

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Plus maybe they might not be allowed to use the "Pen" naming, the same as the Olympus name had to be dropped on new cameras and lenses.

So we can safely start a new Pen naming competition while we wait - and wait - and wait....

My vote is that it could be the OM-P1 for their first in-shop designed humpless camera.

Promeneur said:

Jaime100 said:

imi100 said:

Japanese companies pride themselves being able to sell products within their own country

it is quite obvious that the OM1 is targeted for birders that reside outside of Japan and it's back up camera is a little OM 5

The retro styling of the Om3 she's nicely in the Japanese market along with the budget conscious EP-7.

Most forum members here just don't get it and think that it all should be about their personal wants. But I guess that is a result of the loss of community spirit in most affluent Western nations.

Click to expand...

you are right....it isn't about the Western nations, it is about what sells in Japan. Remember that OM said they would look at updating the Pen or at least keep the idea on the back burner but that doesn't imply the Pen F....most likely it is taking the already popular camera in Japan; the EP7 ....and updating it. THAT would make the most sense.

The OM3 is the PenF replacement, the EP8 will be the updated Pen. Face it....

Click to expand...

That is everything I said. Did you read my post?

Everyone has their own interpretation on what OMDS said regarding the future of a PEN F.

Click to expand...

I read it...just agreeing with you...

I do like the name of OM-P1 as Guy suggested....

--
jim lehmann https://jimlehmann.squarespace.com

2nd storage card because that’s what I need
Larger grip for better handling
Bigger battery for more endurance
OM Capture compatibility for the tethered operation

now it’s an OM-1 without the hump

jj

oneofone25 said:

What would you like to see in a new Pen F model?

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It seems like you can't even get simple replies to your questions without a bunch of thin-skinned, hyper-reactive, sensitive Sally's chiming to say that someone is wrong for having some wants and just trying to answer your question. To anyone I offended, I'm not paying for your therapy.

To the OP, Initially I tried to stay on topic and answer your question, I'm sorry for my part in taking this thread down a rabbit hole. If the Mod doesn't lock this thread, I hope you get good feedback and answers to your question from people who are not just here to hijack and put others opinions down. You seem sincere if your question and deserved better from this community, myself included.

Sam Bennett said:

Guy Parsons said:

Thorgrem81 said:

I would like to see a E-P7 with EVF for about €1000.'

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The old Olympus "E-" naming system is gone, so it is "OM-" or potentially (hopefully) "Pen-" name going forward, that is, unless Olympus has forbidden that word to be used.

Nevertheless it is fun (and generally pointless) to tell what we want in a camera.

All I want is my good old faithful E-P5 to be updated to an "E-P8" with fresh innards, its controls work extremely well as they are and of course it must have a tilt screen and not the awkward and slow to use flip out sideways thing.

In my case and maybe for 100% of phone users who may convert, no EVF necessary. Just make the screen a bit brighter, like the Sunny screen mode on my Sony compact (where I never use its EVF either).

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I think this is really missing why people are looking for an alternative to their smartphone. In short, they’re looking for a different experience. Having a viewfinder is a huge difference over the smartphone experience. It’s not the only difference, but I don’t think it’s accidental that the X100 series is as popular as it is. And the X-Half, despite having an objectively terrible viewfinder is also apparently doing quite well.

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When I see people with cameras stuck to their faces I quietly think that they are missing out on what is happening in and around the framing.

I fell really "free" by using screen only, plus the fact that nobody is 100% aware of what I might be doing, they may presume that I'm chimping when I am really getting a more realistic shot of them without them doing the usual preening or providing false camera smile.

Guy Parsons said:

When I see people with cameras stuck to their faces I quietly think that they are missing out on what is happening in and around the framing.

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My main cameras are film medium format all used with no tiny viewfinder. I never lost my client numbers from the 1990's. The last 4 years have seen my client base expand

With my let's have fun GX9 when I use the vf it's with both eyes open a throw back from my film rangefinder days other than that it's all tilt screen