Does the RF at $4999 look like a better option with the drop of the Sony RX1 Riii for $5098?

I am listening to the interwebs, and the RX1R3 just hit and the price is turning away a lot of people. I was in the market for the RX1Riii and had they dropped it before the RF I probably would have purchased that.

The RX1Riii feature set
  • No IBIS
  • No tilt screen
  • No ND filter
  • It does have crop modes
  • f2 glass
  • no built in flash
I am thinking anyone waiting for the RX1Riii will reconsider the value proposition of the RF.
If the Sony was weather sealed, I wouldn't mind owning it alongside my X100VI and 100RF. If I don't need weather sealing, I'd rather take my X-M5, which has a full tilt/flip screen. But I don't see the 100RF as a value because of the Sony, I just see an overpriced Sony.
Unfortunately, I feel 2025 and beyond will be the time for price shocker, there are a lot of complaints about price in many electronics product this year,

From Nintendo Switch 2 and higher price for games, to Fuji X-Half and X-E5, now Sony, I am pretty sure the rest of the industry will follow.

This is not only due to tariffs, but also we need to consider dollar is a lot weaker compare to half a year ago.
 
To get into the UC system on the US West Coast required only a year of high school Algebra plus a year of Geometry, or two years of Algebra. Which was excellent, because for some of us right-brain types there is always more literature, journalism, theater, music, cinema, and French to learn than there is time to learn it. 🙄
I think a well-rounded undergrad college education is important. In addition to math, science, and engineering, I took history, music, anthropology, poly sci, art history, a foreign language, english, philosophy, etc. I would have been as disadvantaged leaving those out as someone leaving out math and science.
I meant to round up with a quip such as, "Of course, we were all unemployable," but got a work call and forgot it.
Nice one.
 
I think I will just get "Godox iT30Pro S TTL Mini Flash for Sony" if I order this camera
Pretty good flash, super sensitive touch screen but gives out really good light.
 
You are right, the studio scene is really below average. Not my personal experience with that camera. Sample variation? Lucky guy?
In my experience, the studio scene, and sample images provided by dpreview, are not even close to the real performance of that lens. Especially since the shots in the studio scene were taken at f5.6.

It's either a defective lens, or user error, or heavy copy variation. There are a number of reviews online, that show a completely different picture. And the two copies that I have shot with, were also both much better.

A good review would be here . Bastian shows shots wide open at f2, that are sharper than what dpreview shows at f5.6.
I used to own the two first RX versions and I loved that lens! Sharp and fantastic rendering.

I have the Q3 43 now. I like it, but it will not fit in my jacket pocket, the RX1RIII will.
 
I think the lack of IBIS is significant more problem in RX1 than GFX100RF. Of course there is the lens speed advantage if you shoot moving subjects somewhere 1.5 stop considering sensor size difference. The problem comes when you intend to shoot below 1/100s.

Here comes the disadvantage of small size. Smaller, lighter the camera harder to hold still. The grip is short in height, narrow, the camera body is small. The lens is significant stick out, making the camera bit front heavy. In other hand GFX100RF has tall grip and sufficient gripping area. Lens bump is smaller, especially comperd the body size. Weight centre inside the body in line of the grip. The more weight in this term also makes advantage. And last, I'm able to use slower shutter speeds by using a neck strap hanging the camera on waist level, adding a small constant push to the camera. But surprise, on RX1RIII you are dammed with a fixed screen, unable composing at waist level.

Knowing myself, It's hard to go below 1/100s with RX1 and the same time I'm able to get away even 1/15 with neck strap trick on GFX100RF, I don't go below 1/60 at eye level even with Fuji's way better handhold ability.
 
I think the lack of IBIS is significant more problem in RX1 than GFX100RF. Of course there is the lens speed advantage if you shoot moving subjects somewhere 1.5 stop considering sensor size difference. The problem comes when you intend to shoot below 1/100s.

Here comes the disadvantage of small size. Smaller, lighter the camera harder to hold still. The grip is short in height, narrow, the camera body is small. The lens is significant stick out, making the camera bit front heavy. In other hand GFX100RF has tall grip and sufficient gripping area. Lens bump is smaller, especially comperd the body size. Weight centre inside the body in line of the grip. The more weight in this term also makes advantage. And last, I'm able to use slower shutter speeds by using a neck strap hanging the camera on waist level, adding a small constant push to the camera. But surprise, on RX1RIII you are dammed with a fixed screen, unable composing at waist level.

Knowing myself, It's hard to go below 1/100s with RX1 and the same time I'm able to get away even 1/15 with neck strap trick on GFX100RF, I don't go below 1/60 at eye level even with Fuji's way better handhold ability.
While I have no experience of the Sony RX1 series, I can relate to your view as a RX100VII user. I tried the GXF100RF last weekend for four days (Fuji London loan). Despite being used to IBIS (from my XT5 & X100VI) I found the RF fine without it. I put a lower shutter speed limit of 1/50 (similar to your 1/60) which was fine. This is based on my training as a former rifle marksman covering standing, holding, breathing and rolling the shutter button (aka squeezing the trigger). In lower light situations, such as in a shaded wood, I just increased the ISO from its base (ISO 80) to ensure a minimum of 1/50. At 1/50 I found the image sharpness to be excellent.
 
You are right, the studio scene is really below average. Not my personal experience with that camera. Sample variation? Lucky guy?
In my experience, the studio scene, and sample images provided by dpreview, are not even close to the real performance of that lens. Especially since the shots in the studio scene were taken at f5.6.

It's either a defective lens, or user error, or heavy copy variation. There are a number of reviews online, that show a completely different picture. And the two copies that I have shot with, were also both much better.

A good review would be here . Bastian shows shots wide open at f2, that are sharper than what dpreview shows at f5.6.
I used to own the two first RX versions and I loved that lens! Sharp and fantastic rendering.

I have the Q3 43 now. I like it, but it will not fit in my jacket pocket, the RX1RIII will.
Exactly! a friend of mine owns the RX1Rii, and its extremely compact, and the Zeiss lens is stellar.

I too own the Q3-43. To me it has the best lens of all the fixed lens cameras under 10k. I preordered the new Sony, but haven't made up my mind yet, whether I want to buy it. I prefer 43mm over 35mm, so I would likely pick the Leica most days. Extreme compactness isn't my biggest priority. But the RX1Riii is definitely tempting.
 
I think the lack of IBIS is significant more problem in RX1 than GFX100RF. Of course there is the lens speed advantage if you shoot moving subjects somewhere 1.5 stop considering sensor size difference. The problem comes when you intend to shoot below 1/100s.

Here comes the disadvantage of small size. Smaller, lighter the camera harder to hold still. The grip is short in height, narrow, the camera body is small. The lens is significant stick out, making the camera bit front heavy. In other hand GFX100RF has tall grip and sufficient gripping area. Lens bump is smaller, especially comperd the body size. Weight centre inside the body in line of the grip. The more weight in this term also makes advantage. And last, I'm able to use slower shutter speeds by using a neck strap hanging the camera on waist level, adding a small constant push to the camera. But surprise, on RX1RIII you are dammed with a fixed screen, unable composing at waist level.

Knowing myself, It's hard to go below 1/100s with RX1 and the same time I'm able to get away even 1/15 with neck strap trick on GFX100RF, I don't go below 1/60 at eye level even with Fuji's way better handhold ability.
I agree that a smaller and lighter camera can be more difficult to hold.

The Sony would be tricky I suspect due to it's low weight and small size.

I found that a Canon 1ds was easier to keep steady than a small and light M43 camera back in the day.
 
This is an interesting demonstration of how subjective impressions (that most people rely on for their beliefs) are not completely immune (as some people like to claim) to being broken down into numerical components, combined and modelled in ways that actually explain those perceptions quite precisely (assuming a good model).

Lens character isn't some kind of mystical characteristic that can't be explained and just has to be accepted as magic; it's actually a combination of the effects of separate modelable aberrations and other lens parameters. There is no magic if you are able to measure and think in the right way; everything really is explicable with science and numbers.

As Feynman famously argued, science doesn't detract from the beauty of nature, but rather adds to it by revealing deeper layers of complexity and wonder. Understanding the scientific principles behind natural phenomena enhances, rather than diminishes, the appreciation of their beauty. Yet so many people are willing to reject understanding, reject the maths, because they believe that, somehow, intuition is more beautiful.

I think that the reason for this is because proper understanding requires thinking very hard, and thinking very hard is hard work. You mentioned something about people not being willing to think hard enough about things. I think that is dead right, but it is understandable: anything that is hard work uses energy and people evolved in an energy-poor environment, so careful hoarding of energy and the reluctance to expend it is an utterly natural and built-in part of human nature. Of course it is, laziness is a survival characteristic.

Watch a pet dog zippering back and forth sniffing out their environment and compare that to the dead straight path of a coyote. One is permanently fat, the other permanently starved. Of course we are all lazy by nature...

--
2024: Awarded Royal Photographic Society LRPS Distinction
Photo of the day: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/photo-of-the-day-2025/
Website: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/
DPReview gallery: https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/0286305481
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)
 
Last edited:
Indeed. Science has demonstrated that domestic dogs have evolved to talk to our emotions and get us to feed them. I’m happy about that, I like dogs.

As regards lenses, Zeiss once told me that in the end it works as a lens/sensor/processing combo, or it fails. It’s not numbers, it’s psychophysics, an understanding of human perception. In hifi or in photography the human is the ultimate judge, not the graphs.
This is an interesting demonstration of how subjective impressions (that most people rely on for their beliefs) are not completely immune (as some people like to claim) to being broken down into numerical components, combined and modelled in ways that actually explain those perceptions quite precisely (assuming a good model).

Lens character isn't some kind of mystical characteristic that can't be explained and just has to be accepted as magic; it's actually a combination of the effects of separate modelable aberrations and other lens parameters. There is no magic if you are able to measure and think in the right way; everything really is explicable with science and numbers.

As Feynman famously argued, science doesn't detract from the beauty of nature, but rather adds to it by revealing deeper layers of complexity and wonder. Understanding the scientific principles behind natural phenomena enhances, rather than diminishes, the appreciation of their beauty. Yet so many people are willing to reject understanding, reject the maths, because they believe that, somehow, intuition is more beautiful.

I think that the reason for this is because proper understanding requires thinking very hard, and thinking very hard is hard work. You mentioned something about people not being willing to think hard enough about things. I think that is dead right, but it is understandable: anything that is hard work uses energy and people evolved in an energy-poor environment, so careful hoarding of energy and the reluctance to expend it is an utterly natural and built-in part of human nature. Of course it is, laziness is a survival characteristic.

Watch a pet dog zippering back and forth sniffing out their environment and compare that to the dead straight path of a coyote. One is permanently fat, the other permanently starved. Of course we are all lazy by nature...
 
Indeed. Science has demonstrated that domestic dogs have evolved to talk to our emotions and get us to feed them. I’m happy about that, I like dogs.

As regards lenses, Zeiss once told me that in the end it works as a lens/sensor/processing combo, or it fails. It’s not numbers, it’s psychophysics, an understanding of human perception. In hifi or in photography the human is the ultimate judge, not the graphs.
I have no problem with the idea that when it comes to matters of sensory perception, humans matter more than measurements and numbers. But only in a very caveated way.

The job of the measurer is to get at the heart of what factors influence perceptions and measure those ie model the human perception accurately. If they can pull that off, the measurements become more reliable than human perception itself because perception is variable - it can be influenced by external factors, such as mood or environment.

That is the problem to me with subjectivists: they are correct in demanding that a measurement that doesn't correlate with human perception is not useful for judging the factors a device needs to have high fidelity. Working with such measurements is barking up the wrong tree. But they are dead wrong to reject all measurements just because one measurement isn't appropriate. If we have the right measurements that correlate closely with human perception, the machine is usually much more accurate and consistent than subjective opinion. And on average you get better results for more people if you design based on the measurements, than if you design around one person's subjective view.

Take the CIE colour model thingy (I forget what it is called). It is a colour model for average human colour perception. It is based on measurements, so is consistent and reliable. But it is also based on actual testing of a representative sample of humans, so it correlates very closely with what the average person perceives. It is, therefore, a better basis for designing the colour response of a camera system that needs to appeal to wide number of people than, say, asking me my opinion on what nice colour is.

The hifi world is full of problems because so many people believe good sound can't be measured, only experienced. Unscrupulous manufacturers take advantage of this naivety by designing bad sounding gear that measures poorly on well correlated metrics, then using marketing lies to appeal to customer prejudices (previously established by earlier marketing). It often turns out that people can fool themselves (temporarily at least) into preferring gear that sounds worse, because it sounds different ie bad, and stands out against well designed neutral gear that all sounds the same. It stands out so must be better, is the thinking. They then defend that choice (confirmation bias) against facts because they are committed psychologically to their opinion. The lie to all this is exposed in double blind testing where broken gear no longer sounds good.

Blind testing is very important when it comes to identifying and characterising human perceptions. It removes additional cues so the only information available is the factor under test. The subjectivity tends to vanish when there are no additional cues to bias opinion, and under these tight constraints human perception tends to become more accurate and more consistent and reliable. That is why blind tests are so good.

Hifi nuts (of course) and homeopathy fans (of course) hate blind testing alike, because it keeps exposing that their cherished beliefs don't stand up in a neutral cueless environment, where the only information available to test subjects are the facts under consideration. Human biases taint everything, which is why objective measurements are so useful. It's easy to have an opinion, much harder to prove it is correct...
This is an interesting demonstration of how subjective impressions (that most people rely on for their beliefs) are not completely immune (as some people like to claim) to being broken down into numerical components, combined and modelled in ways that actually explain those perceptions quite precisely (assuming a good model).

Lens character isn't some kind of mystical characteristic that can't be explained and just has to be accepted as magic; it's actually a combination of the effects of separate modelable aberrations and other lens parameters. There is no magic if you are able to measure and think in the right way; everything really is explicable with science and numbers.

As Feynman famously argued, science doesn't detract from the beauty of nature, but rather adds to it by revealing deeper layers of complexity and wonder. Understanding the scientific principles behind natural phenomena enhances, rather than diminishes, the appreciation of their beauty. Yet so many people are willing to reject understanding, reject the maths, because they believe that, somehow, intuition is more beautiful.

I think that the reason for this is because proper understanding requires thinking very hard, and thinking very hard is hard work. You mentioned something about people not being willing to think hard enough about things. I think that is dead right, but it is understandable: anything that is hard work uses energy and people evolved in an energy-poor environment, so careful hoarding of energy and the reluctance to expend it is an utterly natural and built-in part of human nature. Of course it is, laziness is a survival characteristic.

Watch a pet dog zippering back and forth sniffing out their environment and compare that to the dead straight path of a coyote. One is permanently fat, the other permanently starved. Of course we are all lazy by nature...
--
2024: Awarded Royal Photographic Society LRPS Distinction
Photo of the day: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/photo-of-the-day-2025/
Website: https://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/
DPReview gallery: https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/0286305481
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)
 
Last edited:
You are right, the studio scene is really below average. Not my personal experience with that camera. Sample variation? Lucky guy?
In my experience, the studio scene, and sample images provided by dpreview, are not even close to the real performance of that lens. Especially since the shots in the studio scene were taken at f5.6.

It's either a defective lens, or user error, or heavy copy variation. There are a number of reviews online, that show a completely different picture. And the two copies that I have shot with, were also both much better.

A good review would be here . Bastian shows shots wide open at f2, that are sharper than what dpreview shows at f5.6.
I used to own the two first RX versions and I loved that lens! Sharp and fantastic rendering.

I have the Q3 43 now. I like it, but it will not fit in my jacket pocket, the RX1RIII will.
Exactly! a friend of mine owns the RX1Rii, and its extremely compact, and the Zeiss lens is stellar.
Yes that Zeiss lens is something special.
I too own the Q3-43. To me it has the best lens of all the fixed lens cameras under 10k. I preordered the new Sony, but haven't made up my mind yet, whether I want to buy it. I prefer 43mm over 35mm, so I would likely pick the Leica most days. Extreme compactness isn't my biggest priority. But the RX1Riii is definitely tempting.
 
This is an interesting demonstration of how subjective impressions (that most people rely on for their beliefs) are not completely immune (as some people like to claim) to being broken down into numerical components, combined and modelled in ways that actually explain those perceptions quite precisely (assuming a good model).

Lens character isn't some kind of mystical characteristic that can't be explained and just has to be accepted as magic; it's actually a combination of the effects of separate modelable aberrations and other lens parameters. There is no magic if you are able to measure and think in the right way; everything really is explicable with science and numbers.
Well said. Not only are the kinds of simulations that Jim is demonstrating a powerful tool for understanding the contributors to optical character and how they interact to produce perceived effects, but the computational power now affordably available makes such simulations widely accessible.
 
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This is an interesting demonstration of how subjective impressions (that most people rely on for their beliefs) are not completely immune (as some people like to claim) to being broken down into numerical components, combined and modelled in ways that actually explain those perceptions quite precisely (assuming a good model).

Lens character isn't some kind of mystical characteristic that can't be explained and just has to be accepted as magic; it's actually a combination of the effects of separate modelable aberrations and other lens parameters. There is no magic if you are able to measure and think in the right way; everything really is explicable with science and numbers.
Well said. Not only are the kinds of simulations that Jim is demonstrating a powerful tool for understanding the contributors to optical character and how they interact to produce perceived effects, but the computational power now affordably available makes such simulations widely accessible.
I view them as similar in content to component tastings for wine, where measured amounts of adulterants are employed. Educational for wine drinkers, and I hope to develop something similarly educational for lens users.
 
I have an RX1R2 and the RF---the latter is much easier to handle for me. The RF's viewfinder also is far superior. The Sony you kind of hold with your fingers, the RF with your hands.

YMMV! Some people LOVE teeny stuff; I don't, and I don't have especially big hands. The Sony would be fine for smaller women, probably.
 
The problem with numbers is they don’t mean much by themselves but they become a contractual deliverable. I once had a meeting with a bunch of color scientists, one from Apple, where we looked at an Apple screen showing some image in the Finder, Preview,Photoshop, Safari etc. Every single window the image showed a different visual rendering of this perfectly tagged file. Now of course all of these were apps programmed by very smart graphics guys, but no one with decent color vision and a profiled display had ever checked the result of this work with a Mark I eyeball.

You can see much of the same effect with high end binoculars. Every brand meets excellent specs and every sample is different. Rolling Ball, CA, flare, kidney-beaning, color casts that hardly show up on a spectro but which many notice, the differences between $2500 instruments are immediate and often painful, it’s a case of choosing not the best but the one that doesn’t hurt.

One really needs to understand that the numbers become « paint by numbers » when designs get turned into products. No later feedback occurs.

Edmund
Indeed. Science has demonstrated that domestic dogs have evolved to talk to our emotions and get us to feed them. I’m happy about that, I like dogs.

As regards lenses, Zeiss once told me that in the end it works as a lens/sensor/processing combo, or it fails. It’s not numbers, it’s psychophysics, an understanding of human perception. In hifi or in photography the human is the ultimate judge, not the graphs.
I have no problem with the idea that when it comes to matters of sensory perception, humans matter more than measurements and numbers. But only in a very caveated way.

The job of the measurer is to get at the heart of what factors influence perceptions and measure those ie model the human perception accurately. If they can pull that off, the measurements become more reliable than human perception itself because perception is variable - it can be influenced by external factors, such as mood or environment.

That is the problem to me with subjectivists: they are correct in demanding that a measurement that doesn't correlate with human perception is not useful for judging the factors a device needs to have high fidelity. Working with such measurements is barking up the wrong tree. But they are dead wrong to reject all measurements just because one measurement isn't appropriate. If we have the right measurements that correlate closely with human perception, the machine is usually much more accurate and consistent than subjective opinion. And on average you get better results for more people if you design based on the measurements, than if you design around one person's subjective view.

Take the CIE colour model thingy (I forget what it is called). It is a colour model for average human colour perception. It is based on measurements, so is consistent and reliable. But it is also based on actual testing of a representative sample of humans, so it correlates very closely with what the average person perceives. It is, therefore, a better basis for designing the colour response of a camera system that needs to appeal to wide number of people than, say, asking me my opinion on what nice colour is.

The hifi world is full of problems because so many people believe good sound can't be measured, only experienced. Unscrupulous manufacturers take advantage of this naivety by designing bad sounding gear that measures poorly on well correlated metrics, then using marketing lies to appeal to customer prejudices (previously established by earlier marketing). It often turns out that people can fool themselves (temporarily at least) into preferring gear that sounds worse, because it sounds different ie bad, and stands out against well designed neutral gear that all sounds the same. It stands out so must be better, is the thinking. They then defend that choice (confirmation bias) against facts because they are committed psychologically to their opinion. The lie to all this is exposed in double blind testing where broken gear no longer sounds good.

Blind testing is very important when it comes to identifying and characterising human perceptions. It removes additional cues so the only information available is the factor under test. The subjectivity tends to vanish when there are no additional cues to bias opinion, and under these tight constraints human perception tends to become more accurate and more consistent and reliable. That is why blind tests are so good.

Hifi nuts (of course) and homeopathy fans (of course) hate blind testing alike, because it keeps exposing that their cherished beliefs don't stand up in a neutral cueless environment, where the only information available to test subjects are the facts under consideration. Human biases taint everything, which is why objective measurements are so useful. It's easy to have an opinion, much harder to prove it is correct...
This is an interesting demonstration of how subjective impressions (that most people rely on for their beliefs) are not completely immune (as some people like to claim) to being broken down into numerical components, combined and modelled in ways that actually explain those perceptions quite precisely (assuming a good model).

Lens character isn't some kind of mystical characteristic that can't be explained and just has to be accepted as magic; it's actually a combination of the effects of separate modelable aberrations and other lens parameters. There is no magic if you are able to measure and think in the right way; everything really is explicable with science and numbers.

As Feynman famously argued, science doesn't detract from the beauty of nature, but rather adds to it by revealing deeper layers of complexity and wonder. Understanding the scientific principles behind natural phenomena enhances, rather than diminishes, the appreciation of their beauty. Yet so many people are willing to reject understanding, reject the maths, because they believe that, somehow, intuition is more beautiful.

I think that the reason for this is because proper understanding requires thinking very hard, and thinking very hard is hard work. You mentioned something about people not being willing to think hard enough about things. I think that is dead right, but it is understandable: anything that is hard work uses energy and people evolved in an energy-poor environment, so careful hoarding of energy and the reluctance to expend it is an utterly natural and built-in part of human nature. Of course it is, laziness is a survival characteristic.

Watch a pet dog zippering back and forth sniffing out their environment and compare that to the dead straight path of a coyote. One is permanently fat, the other permanently starved. Of course we are all lazy by nature...
 
The problem with numbers is they don’t mean much by themselves but they become a contractual deliverable. I once had a meeting with a bunch of color scientists, one from Apple, where we looked at an Apple screen showing some image in the Finder, Preview,Photoshop, Safari etc. Every single window the image showed a different visual rendering of this perfectly tagged file. Now of course all of these were apps programmed by very smart graphics guys, but no one with decent color vision and a profiled display had ever checked the result of this work with a Mark I eyeball.

You can see much of the same effect with high end binoculars. Every brand meets excellent specs and every sample is different. Rolling Ball, CA, flare, kidney-beaning, color casts that hardly show up on a spectro but which many notice, the differences between $2500 instruments are immediate and often painful, it’s a case of choosing not the best but the one that doesn’t hurt.

One really needs to understand that the numbers become « paint by numbers » when designs get turned into products. No later feedback occurs.
That is a sign of bad engineering. Good engineers never lose sight of the users.
 
I have an RX1R2 and the RF---the latter is much easier to handle for me. The RF's viewfinder also is far superior. The Sony you kind of hold with your fingers, the RF with your hands.

YMMV! Some people LOVE teeny stuff; I don't, and I don't have especially big hands. The Sony would be fine for smaller women, probably.
Imagine GFX100RF with 45mm f2.5 lens and Sony AI AF.
 
The problem with numbers is they don’t mean much by themselves but they become a contractual deliverable. I once had a meeting with a bunch of color scientists, one from Apple, where we looked at an Apple screen showing some image in the Finder, Preview,Photoshop, Safari etc. Every single window the image showed a different visual rendering of this perfectly tagged file. Now of course all of these were apps programmed by very smart graphics guys, but no one with decent color vision and a profiled display had ever checked the result of this work with a Mark I eyeball.

You can see much of the same effect with high end binoculars. Every brand meets excellent specs and every sample is different. Rolling Ball, CA, flare, kidney-beaning, color casts that hardly show up on a spectro but which many notice, the differences between $2500 instruments are immediate and often painful, it’s a case of choosing not the best but the one that doesn’t hurt.

One really needs to understand that the numbers become « paint by numbers » when designs get turned into products. No later feedback occurs.
That is a sign of bad engineering. Good engineers never lose sight of the users.
 
That is a sign of bad engineering. Good engineers never lose sight of the users.
Jim,

You are correct. Sadly, bad engineering is 90% of what actually hits the market. My kid’s iPad just kept getting louder every minute: thermal runaway in the amp. I got taught about that issue in electronics 101 but the guy who did the IC clearly missed that class. Etc etc.

In the Apple case apps most apps had a different color issue in the display path, and the print path was broken all over the place, we dealt with that in another meeting

In the end, I’m all for design and testing but usually 5 minutes with an educated user/tester will tell you all you need to know about a high end consumer product.

Edmund
At HP, we used to have what we called the next bench syndrome. If you wanted to know what users thought of a product, you'd take it to the guy at the next bench. That worked when you were designing products for people like you. But when I was at HP, I was designing products for data acquisition and process control applications, and the people at the next bench couldn't help me. So I spent a lot of time in the field trying to understand what companies like Firestone and P&G were doing with the products we were shipping, what they thought of our ideas for new products, and what new. features or instruments they wanted. There is no substitute for that kind of customer exposure.

I did the same thing at Rolm. **** Moley and I spent a lot of time at customer sites.
 

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