Hardly idiotic, its part of social engineering. A hard hat and a yellow vest can be props you buy at Home Depot and can give you access and unquestioned authority, certain items signal authority and legitimacy. Everyone in a society makes associations and these associations or stereotypes carry on for a long time.
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A curious conversation with a professional photographer
- Thread starter rhlpetrus
- Start date
I can understand how image means everything at times. I wouldn't feel confident if my doctor dressed like a Massai tribesman. I suppose you have to look the part. I can't recall ever attending an event with pro photographers in my life but I would not have asked about their camera. I really have no Idea what is available out there beyond the equipment I have so I wouldn't know what they had anyway. They would be talking in a language I don't comprehend. My hobby is taking pics and not being a walking encyclopedia of photo equipment which seems to be the end result of too much time in a gear-centric forum.
It is a funny thing with weddings as I found out a month ago, to my big surprise.
My daughter got married abroad and they hired a local photopgrapher. They guy was doing that for 15 years, he told me. I saw the photo's and lots of them lacked any composition whatsoever and technically they were terrible. WB far of, ugly face colors.
But the couple and the family were very happy with the photo's! And that is really what it is about of course.
I took photo's as well, and I did do some PP to remove some acne and the like. And not overdo it so that grandma doesn't look like a newborn baby. I do think that it makes people look prettier , which I think adds to the wedding party atmosphere.
But my respect for the "wedding photographer" which was high, got a bit of a dent...
This is not about the wedding photographer who knows what he/she is doing, of course!
I assume the people who asked that were not photographers themselves.
But yes, I've read comments from working photographers who said the same thing. 'People' often have an expectation that a good photographer requires a large camera, so some photographers accommodate that expectation to keep their clients happy.
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MediaArchivist
Veteran Member
I've heard this from wedding photographers who have to deal with "Uncle Sal". Uncle Sal has been waiting for an opportunity to justify his GAS, and comes to the wedding fully loaded, sometimes with a vest.
dmanthree
Forum Pro
Stereotypes with no basis in logic or reality are idiotic. So a talented pro using a FF cam will be less highly regarded than a hack holding a Pentax 67? If so, that's idiotic.
I was going to ask if anyone had used a Leica and how the public reacted to it. I don't think the general public is aware of that brand and the price tags associated with it.
I worked along with two other Park Photographer Volunteers, and we all had tripod mounted Canon DSLR's, two of us with EF100-400L's, and one with an EF600mmF4L.
Inevitably, when visitors approached with question's, they were directed at the 600mm "Big white" guy who was apparently perceived as bigger lens = bigger knowledge pro.
Inevitably, when visitors approached with question's, they were directed at the 600mm "Big white" guy who was apparently perceived as bigger lens = bigger knowledge pro.
Dick Dastardly
Senior Member
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People expect to see a big old DSLR when they pay money for an event and that's what they should get.
Nobody doubts MY credentials when I show up with my 6D anywhere.
With a DSLR, you're a pro without being a pro!
Nobody doubts MY credentials when I show up with my 6D anywhere.
With a DSLR, you're a pro without being a pro!
Schrodingers cat
Leading Member
I once photographed cattle calls for various professional organizations. I would set up background, lights, and tripod in whatever convenient space the organization made available and somebody in the organization would heard the employees past the camera.
At some point I became aware that if I offered to let the employees bring their family members, or even their pets, to be photographed with them or by themselves, that it generated additional traffic (read MONEY).
Getting the ok from the organization was somebody else's problem, all I had to do was deliver the photos, which I did by digital download and direct payment.
Naturally, with more people in the photo I needed a bigger background, the lights needed to be different, I discovered that if I set up a large monitor so people not being photographed could look at the images as they were made it was something they enjoyed. In fact it was something that seemed to generate even more traffic ($$$).
Sometimes it got to be somewhat of a circus, but I was getting regular repeat business, and referrals ($$$) from the organization. Occasionally someone in the management dropped by and commented on the setup I was using.
I never got the impression the management would recognize the difference between a modest camera and a Hasselblad if it bit them on the ankle, but they did seem to have a positive reaction to the increase in the amount of equipment I humped into the building and set up. Everybody else in the area photographing the same stuff used a 4 x 5 background, one light with an umbrella, and tried to make as many images as possible while having the least actual interaction with the subjects. I actually watched another photographer do a couple of subjects without ever breaking stride in the cellphone conversation he was having.
Granted, it was a hell of a lot more work and just plain trouble doing it my way, but it seemed to me I was generating more work.
It also fits well with my belief that photographer/customer relationships are more important in a business sense than producing the absolute best possible results. It was my personal practice to generate the absolutely best results of which I was capable, but I'm not absolutely convinced it made much difference to anybody except me.
The perception of reality was more important than reality. Kinda like most stuff in life
I'm not going to suggest this approach for anybody else, but I was pretty comfortable with it.
--
Personal travel snapshots at https://www.castle-explorers.com
Making good decisions is generally the result of experience. Unfortunately, experience is generally the result of making bad decisions.
At some point I became aware that if I offered to let the employees bring their family members, or even their pets, to be photographed with them or by themselves, that it generated additional traffic (read MONEY).
Getting the ok from the organization was somebody else's problem, all I had to do was deliver the photos, which I did by digital download and direct payment.
Naturally, with more people in the photo I needed a bigger background, the lights needed to be different, I discovered that if I set up a large monitor so people not being photographed could look at the images as they were made it was something they enjoyed. In fact it was something that seemed to generate even more traffic ($$$).
Sometimes it got to be somewhat of a circus, but I was getting regular repeat business, and referrals ($$$) from the organization. Occasionally someone in the management dropped by and commented on the setup I was using.
I never got the impression the management would recognize the difference between a modest camera and a Hasselblad if it bit them on the ankle, but they did seem to have a positive reaction to the increase in the amount of equipment I humped into the building and set up. Everybody else in the area photographing the same stuff used a 4 x 5 background, one light with an umbrella, and tried to make as many images as possible while having the least actual interaction with the subjects. I actually watched another photographer do a couple of subjects without ever breaking stride in the cellphone conversation he was having.
Granted, it was a hell of a lot more work and just plain trouble doing it my way, but it seemed to me I was generating more work.
It also fits well with my belief that photographer/customer relationships are more important in a business sense than producing the absolute best possible results. It was my personal practice to generate the absolutely best results of which I was capable, but I'm not absolutely convinced it made much difference to anybody except me.
The perception of reality was more important than reality. Kinda like most stuff in life
I'm not going to suggest this approach for anybody else, but I was pretty comfortable with it.
--
Personal travel snapshots at https://www.castle-explorers.com
Making good decisions is generally the result of experience. Unfortunately, experience is generally the result of making bad decisions.
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Schrodingers cat
Leading Member
AstigmaticOwl
Senior Member
Isaac Asimov famously had several IBM Selectric typewriters. Each had a different project going.
You jumped over the gear that wouldn't meet the minimum expectation.
Don't shoot the messenger here, I don't make the rules of our society I just work within them.
I hired somebody to re-texture a large area of a ceiling in a rental unit once, he showed up and as he was setting up I kept looking for his texture hopper and a compressor to show up, eventually I asked him where is your texture hopper and he excitedly pulled out a bag from Home Depot with 6 cans of spray texture in it. He went no further.
Now he could have shown up with the professional gear I was expecting and still have hacked the job incompetently, but since he didn't even look the part missing the gear expected to do the job he didn't even get the chance.
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dmanthree
Forum Pro
Not a good analogy since he showed up with gear unsuitable for the task. Totally different than saying someone shooting a wedding with an R5 II doesn't look professional.
Years ago, I was an executive in a large Canadian company, and I often hired a photographer named Tony.He used a Leica sometimes.
One day he told me he was selling it, for as much monry as was needed to pay off the lease.
I bought it. Leica MP-4 with 28mm, 35mm, 50mm and 90mm lenaes.
I did not use it much,
BAK
One day he told me he was selling it, for as much monry as was needed to pay off the lease.
I bought it. Leica MP-4 with 28mm, 35mm, 50mm and 90mm lenaes.
I did not use it much,
BAK
Did he? Or did I stereotype him based on my assumptions and visual associations?
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My grandfather bought me a Smith Corona portable when I was in high school.
Then a manual Underwood at the university newper, and a Remington manual at rhe first daily paper. Another manual at a publishing company, but part of the deal to get me to a PR agency was an electric.
Changed jobs and was promoted to an IBM Selectric. Changed jobs and got a Selectric with correction,
Then I got a secretary with a word processor, and more selectrics for me.
Then a series of Mac desktops, Then Macbooks.
The a deadbeat client gave me a $3000 Compaq instead of $2000 he owed me.
From then on, I bought a series of HP and Asus Windows machones.
So yes, writers care about their machines, too.
BAK
(this is on a Logitech keyboard attached to a ASUS laptop attached to a biggish Samsung monitor attached to a HP printer)
Then a manual Underwood at the university newper, and a Remington manual at rhe first daily paper. Another manual at a publishing company, but part of the deal to get me to a PR agency was an electric.
Changed jobs and was promoted to an IBM Selectric. Changed jobs and got a Selectric with correction,
Then I got a secretary with a word processor, and more selectrics for me.
Then a series of Mac desktops, Then Macbooks.
The a deadbeat client gave me a $3000 Compaq instead of $2000 he owed me.
From then on, I bought a series of HP and Asus Windows machones.
So yes, writers care about their machines, too.
BAK
(this is on a Logitech keyboard attached to a ASUS laptop attached to a biggish Samsung monitor attached to a HP printer)
I almost never have occasion to be around wedding photographers. An exception to that was when our granddaughter got married several years ago. I was to officiate the marriage. This was a large (100+ guests) ceremony with no expense spared.
The wedding was in Monterey, CA. Our grandaughter was living in Denver at the time. She was/is in the hospitality business including wedding planning. She has a wedding photography group she really favored, and flew them out to do this wedding.
On the day of the ceremony I saw a couple/few of them (I could not tell how many were involved). I glanced in their direction a couple of times and saw they were using Canon DSLRs.
I did not question them about their gear for several reasons;
1. I was not curious. There was nothing I would have wanted to ask.
2. Even if I had been curious, I was in charge of the ceremony. Its success or failure would depend on me. I was where the buck stopped.
3. Following the marriage vows and releasing the wedding party, my work was done. It was time to socialize and enjoy the event.
The photography team was very unobtrusive, but very much constantly on the move. It was obvious that they were very familiar with these types of gigs.
Some weeks later the photographs came. We were blown away. The quality (technical and composition) and creativity were amazing. The wedding site was right by Monterey bay, and they had researched the venue and environs so well they incorporared some off-site photographs of the bride and groom at sunset by the bay.
Cameras? I don't think it would have made a difference based on make. They had so much skill that any equivalent DSLR would have worked. If prospective clients meet with this firm to consider hring them it would be pointless to discuss or show any equipment. All they have to do is produce their portfolio. That is irrefutable proof of what hey can do.
Again, it is the picture, and only the picture, that counts.
Shabang provides comic relief on this forum, but nothing else. He has zero concept of nor interest in developing the skill set this team demonstrated at this wedding. They demonstrated why they were flown from Colorado to California.
In a word that is professionalism.
The wedding was in Monterey, CA. Our grandaughter was living in Denver at the time. She was/is in the hospitality business including wedding planning. She has a wedding photography group she really favored, and flew them out to do this wedding.
On the day of the ceremony I saw a couple/few of them (I could not tell how many were involved). I glanced in their direction a couple of times and saw they were using Canon DSLRs.
I did not question them about their gear for several reasons;
1. I was not curious. There was nothing I would have wanted to ask.
2. Even if I had been curious, I was in charge of the ceremony. Its success or failure would depend on me. I was where the buck stopped.
3. Following the marriage vows and releasing the wedding party, my work was done. It was time to socialize and enjoy the event.
The photography team was very unobtrusive, but very much constantly on the move. It was obvious that they were very familiar with these types of gigs.
Some weeks later the photographs came. We were blown away. The quality (technical and composition) and creativity were amazing. The wedding site was right by Monterey bay, and they had researched the venue and environs so well they incorporared some off-site photographs of the bride and groom at sunset by the bay.
Cameras? I don't think it would have made a difference based on make. They had so much skill that any equivalent DSLR would have worked. If prospective clients meet with this firm to consider hring them it would be pointless to discuss or show any equipment. All they have to do is produce their portfolio. That is irrefutable proof of what hey can do.
Again, it is the picture, and only the picture, that counts.
Shabang provides comic relief on this forum, but nothing else. He has zero concept of nor interest in developing the skill set this team demonstrated at this wedding. They demonstrated why they were flown from Colorado to California.
In a word that is professionalism.
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NAwlins Contrarian
Forum Pro
Did you explain to her, 'But I'm a "Forum Pro" with 27,338 posts at Digital Photography Review!'?
Assuming she's sensible about business, there's a good chance she is getting good enough results with that rig that there's not a strong business case for replacing it.
There's no doubt that an element of 'serious camera, must be serious photographer' is something affects the shooting experience and dynamics at least at times. Yes, I get that a pro uses whatever is the right camera for the job, and a pro camera is whatever camera a pro uses to capture pro-quality results. No, a pro shouldn't care what an amateur thinks of the pro's gear. But if e.g. 15% of the time the appearance of the pro's camera affects how others who matter interact with the pro, then it's something a wise pro at least takes into account.
Of course what looks like a serious camera is relative. For circumstances where the technical requirements are modest but the 'make people cooperate' needs are large, would something like an old Mamiya ZD kit with the medium format digital back (e.g., near mint complete kit for $2849 on eBay) be a good choice? That back actually had among the worst medium format performances of that era, but that rig sure looks serious. Also, do you remember the early 2000s Mamiya advertisements comparing the camera sizes and film frame sizes of the Nikon F5 and the Mamiya M7? I thought they were great. And I really wanted a Mamiya M7--even well into the digital age, and even after I concluded that the original Canon 5D delivered functionally about as good overall image quality as 645 color negative film--at least until Hasselblad announced the X1D.
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