Nikon Z8 vs. Canon R5

Isn’t Canon baking in some noise reduction into the raw files? If that is the case, then the dynamic range measurements are not comparable.
The After doing some research on it it looks like if you have long exposure NR and high ISO NR turned off in the R5 that no noise reduction is applied to the RAW files.

When applying in camera NR to the Z8 files I noticed that even on the lowest setting the amount applied by that setting was too strong in my opinion.

Since the sharpness in the processed jpegs in the viewfinder are virtually equal in the R5 and Z8, and the same for the RAW files, I believe it is safe to say that the R5 files are more to my liking straight out of camera in that the sharpness is there along with less noise.

However, the Z8 has fantastic speed, autofocus and updated features that the R5 does not have.

Both cameras are excellent. I think for what I do for work, the R5 is better for me.
I believe R5 applies NR no matter what is selected in camera settings. That specific noise reduction can’t be controlled by the user.
I remember Bill Claff (PhotonsToPhotos) explained that raw files from R5 has baked in noise reduction between ISO 50 and 800.

As he explains on his charts pages, triangles down indicate noise reduction.

Maybe you should ask him for more information.
I think whatever Canon is doing with their sensor in the R5 is producing a cleaner and just as sharp, or sharper file. I believe there are still issues with a shutterless architecture in terms of IQ i.e. the Sony a9 markiii. Photographer/YouTuber Manny Ortiz mentioned that the issue of banding is many times prevalent on the Z8/Z9 when using a flash and I have found this true as well...
Sharpness is an almost entirely lens sided characteristic and has very little to do with the camera/sensor. Unless you're referring to JPG, in which case there can of course be differences in rendering.
I think the lens has a lot to do with it, however, a sensor's AA filter (if it has one), its sensor architecture (stacked) combined with the processor(s) also contribute.
Sure, but those things generally only have a very minor affect on sharpness. The lens is far more important.

So in general it's quite pointless to compare sharpness between cameras/sensors, but IF you're going to do it you should at least always use the same lens to make it fair.
Not so sure on the sensor having very minor impact. The global shutter on Sony's A9iii is limited to a minimum ISO of 250 and the Canon R5ii with the stacked and BSI sensor has less dynamic range than the original R5.

The DXO Mark rating of the Canon 28-70 is 33 while the Nikon Z 24-70 is 36, so according to them the Nikon had the sharper lens in my test.
 
Coming in very late to this, but shall stick this here...

Until the firmware announcement for the Z8 today, which should address the one quibble I have with the Z8, which is in the realm of AF for studio/professional strobe environments not being as good as my D850, my thought pattern was this - just to show I'm not anti-Canon in any way.

IF I were still shooting the amount of studio work I did 10 years ago (I'm not, I'm aging, slowing down, and it's all limited personal work these days), I would have been running dual systems - a Nikon Z8 for landscape, outdoor portraiture, outdoor dance, and a Canon R5, probably the mk II, for studio work. The advantage of the Canon AF, for the specific use case for studio work, was the reason. Obviously if the firmware addresses this issue, this concept/thought pattern would be off the table. But say it was 3 days ago, this is what I would have done. I would have had 3 Canon lenses - the excellent 28-70/2 RF, the 85/1.2 RF, and the 135/2 RF, and that would cover me for studio work.

For landscape, I find the Z8 still the best between the two for low ISO (64) shooting, even with it's slightly lower DR compared to, say, the D850 or Z7-II. Outdoors, for non-landscape work, I have no problems with the Z8 AF system, and it's an *extremely* responsive camera - more so than the R5 series, and that does matter. I also prefer it's EVF experience.

Where I will obviously have my preferences is lenses. All major manufacturers are putting out very good glass - we live in good times. But for what I do (landscape and studio and outdoor people) and what I value, Nikon is in the lead. Lenses like the 14-24/2.8S, the 24-70/2.8S, the 85/1.2S, 105/2.8S MC, and the Plena are top of the class - Canon to my mind doesn't have a match, although their 85 is quite nice of course. And at the end of the day, one marries the lenses and dates the bodies, so Nikon is always my first choice and it was just a pain that the Z8 AF didn't have the feature they just announced in the latest firmware which should instantly solve the studio strobe AF quibble.

Now, as to sharpness. Sure - if you're just shooting out of camera jpeg and that's all you're doing, yea, you might see some minor differences beyond the lenses impact on things, but it's mostly just settings. And to be a bit blunt, if you're *that* concerned about sharpness (in an era when frankly, a lot of stuff is easily professionally sharp), you should be shooting raw and being extremely good/careful at post process sharpening.

As for test sites - they don't tell the whole story, so I wouldn't make decisions on lens sharpness from them either. You'll have to gather consensus info from various subjective sources as well as a few "objective" sources. An MTF50 score, or a DXO score, is honestly nowhere near "enough" to fully and accurately describe a lenses performance envelope.

So that being said, while I am set, mostly because of semi-retirement/personal work being my primary thing now and because the Z8 gets firmware that solves the one problem, I'm still going to recommend the following approach.
  • ALL camera systems these days are damned good. If you had told me, 40 years ago as a recent photo school graduate, of the quality achievable with ANY of the major players systems, I would have laughed at your face and checked you into the nearest and handiest insane asylum. We have it really, really good today.
  • How YOU (not me, not the test site, not the youtuber with a bunch of viewers, no matter how much you like or don't like him) get ALONG with the usability of the camera is #1 and then some. Easily #1. We can quibble about lenses - and for me, I do, because I'm very picky, but if you don't like working with a camera, it's game over. Note that in an earlier paragraph I said there was a thought pattern I said I would have dual systems - why did I not choose Sony? I can't stand their bodies. I honestly can't get along with them. So it's game over, right there.
  • The more you are a jpeg only shooter, the more the way the camera defaults it's processing to what they think is natural/correct/whatever is going to matter to you.
    • Personally, I could never shoot this way, but for those who do, if you don't get along with the native output from a camera systems jpegs, and you're of an understanding that these can be changed to some degree, then again, it's game over, the brand ain't for you.
I sense that you're likely heading over to the R5 and that's cool. In summary, I'd say don't place so much thought into sensor type arguments, and no, sensor types don't matter much at all to RAW shooters with regards to sharpness, and again, most everything today is quite sharp and it's often other aspects of lens image quality that become to matter more.

Good luck, we'll miss you if you leave, but you gotta do what you gotta do!
 
Isn’t Canon baking in some noise reduction into the raw files? If that is the case, then the dynamic range measurements are not comparable.
The After doing some research on it it looks like if you have long exposure NR and high ISO NR turned off in the R5 that no noise reduction is applied to the RAW files.

When applying in camera NR to the Z8 files I noticed that even on the lowest setting the amount applied by that setting was too strong in my opinion.

Since the sharpness in the processed jpegs in the viewfinder are virtually equal in the R5 and Z8, and the same for the RAW files, I believe it is safe to say that the R5 files are more to my liking straight out of camera in that the sharpness is there along with less noise.

However, the Z8 has fantastic speed, autofocus and updated features that the R5 does not have.

Both cameras are excellent. I think for what I do for work, the R5 is better for me.
I believe R5 applies NR no matter what is selected in camera settings. That specific noise reduction can’t be controlled by the user.
I remember Bill Claff (PhotonsToPhotos) explained that raw files from R5 has baked in noise reduction between ISO 50 and 800.

As he explains on his charts pages, triangles down indicate noise reduction.

Maybe you should ask him for more information.
I think whatever Canon is doing with their sensor in the R5 is producing a cleaner and just as sharp, or sharper file. I believe there are still issues with a shutterless architecture in terms of IQ i.e. the Sony a9 markiii. Photographer/YouTuber Manny Ortiz mentioned that the issue of banding is many times prevalent on the Z8/Z9 when using a flash and I have found this true as well...
Definitely not sharper, unless you’re referring to JPEG output, which is dependent on sharpening algorithms from the JPEG processing. Lenses also play a role here.

It’s been mentioned in this thread that the R5 will produce an image with less noise primarily because the camera has a non-stacked sensor and Canon’s built-in noise reduction. If you prefer some noise reduction applied by the camera rather than only in post-processing and files produced by Canon, then that’s great.

Additionally, banding from flash use has been discussed in detail on this forum and appears to be a flash manufacturer issue or incompatibility with certain flash units.
I shot the R5 with the RF 28-70mm f2 L USM + Godox V1 Pro at the appropriate flash power setting to achieve proper exposure. I shot the Z8 with the Z 24-70mm f2.8 S lens with the same settings and flash. The results I had were as I had mentioned, R5 much cleaner and sharpness virtually the same in the RAW files in LR. The banding issue with flash I personally believe is a product of the sensor design. Just my opinion. There is no absolute proof that Canon has applied noise reduction. It is an opinion of some, but not all. I would bet that if you had a Nikon flash on the Z8 you would still have banding in certain situations, but that's just my view. I think it's great that we have a choice. More noise + more banding vs. less rolling shutter + faster drive modes to just name a few...
I totally agree that it’s great as a consumer to have so many awesome option… whether it be Sony, Nikon, Canon, Panasonic etc there’s something for everyone.

Now the other points… I assumed you used godox. 95% of banding issues seem to come from godox flash/trigger units. Try Nikon flash (I have not seen HSS banding at all using a sb910) or profoto and see if the issues persist. Godox themselves have said they will address the issue with FW.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4765435

https://rdubcreative.com/solving-the-banding-issue-with-nikon-z8-and-z9-in-flash-photography/

Canon’s use of baked-in raw NR is 100% a fact and not opinion as it can be measured.
Yes, I use Godox flashes for 95% of my shoots and because I have quite a few it would be cost prohibitive for me to go to Pro Photo, Nikon, Canon flashes etc. Plus, I use studio strobes which Nikon and Canon don't make. So, for me, Canon works pretty much flawlessly with Godox whereas I have been embarrassed on paid shoots in the past using Godox with Sony and Nikon gear and not knowing if the flashes would fire. A few resulted in having to do re-shoots at a lower price. (Note: I only had a couple times that it happened with Nikon and one of them was with Pocket Wizards, however with Sony it happened way too often because, in my opinion, of a faulty hot shoe design coupled with a poorly designed plastic Godox hot shoe connection. The exposed wires on Sony's hot shoes would totally wig out with one drop of sweat in the wrong place during a shoot.

Ive read quite a few articles stating that it's not 100% sure Canon bakes in NR, but I will take your word for it. Bottom line is that I like the way the files look in the R5 vs. Z8 when it comes to my working with them in post and showing clients the back of the camera. Many of my portrait clients ask me to zoom in 100%+ on their faces btw.

There is always going to be trade offs with any camera. For example, the Canon R3. It's got speed, clean files, maybe the second best AF out there (only beaten by the R1), eye controlled AF, etc. but it is 24 mp where as the Z8/Z9 are 45mp.

It's all in what is important to each photographer.

Thanks for your input. Its great to communicate with people who may have different opinions and whom are polite which you were.

Take care
 
Coming in very late to this, but shall stick this here...

Until the firmware announcement for the Z8 today, which should address the one quibble I have with the Z8, which is in the realm of AF for studio/professional strobe environments not being as good as my D850, my thought pattern was this - just to show I'm not anti-Canon in any way.

IF I were still shooting the amount of studio work I did 10 years ago (I'm not, I'm aging, slowing down, and it's all limited personal work these days), I would have been running dual systems - a Nikon Z8 for landscape, outdoor portraiture, outdoor dance, and a Canon R5, probably the mk II, for studio work. The advantage of the Canon AF, for the specific use case for studio work, was the reason. Obviously if the firmware addresses this issue, this concept/thought pattern would be off the table. But say it was 3 days ago, this is what I would have done. I would have had 3 Canon lenses - the excellent 28-70/2 RF, the 85/1.2 RF, and the 135/2 RF, and that would cover me for studio work.

For landscape, I find the Z8 still the best between the two for low ISO (64) shooting, even with it's slightly lower DR compared to, say, the D850 or Z7-II. Outdoors, for non-landscape work, I have no problems with the Z8 AF system, and it's an *extremely* responsive camera - more so than the R5 series, and that does matter. I also prefer it's EVF experience.

Where I will obviously have my preferences is lenses. All major manufacturers are putting out very good glass - we live in good times. But for what I do (landscape and studio and outdoor people) and what I value, Nikon is in the lead. Lenses like the 14-24/2.8S, the 24-70/2.8S, the 85/1.2S, 105/2.8S MC, and the Plena are top of the class - Canon to my mind doesn't have a match, although their 85 is quite nice of course. And at the end of the day, one marries the lenses and dates the bodies, so Nikon is always my first choice and it was just a pain that the Z8 AF didn't have the feature they just announced in the latest firmware which should instantly solve the studio strobe AF quibble.

Now, as to sharpness. Sure - if you're just shooting out of camera jpeg and that's all you're doing, yea, you might see some minor differences beyond the lenses impact on things, but it's mostly just settings. And to be a bit blunt, if you're *that* concerned about sharpness (in an era when frankly, a lot of stuff is easily professionally sharp), you should be shooting raw and being extremely good/careful at post process sharpening.

As for test sites - they don't tell the whole story, so I wouldn't make decisions on lens sharpness from them either. You'll have to gather consensus info from various subjective sources as well as a few "objective" sources. An MTF50 score, or a DXO score, is honestly nowhere near "enough" to fully and accurately describe a lenses performance envelope.

So that being said, while I am set, mostly because of semi-retirement/personal work being my primary thing now and because the Z8 gets firmware that solves the one problem, I'm still going to recommend the following approach.
  • ALL camera systems these days are damned good. If you had told me, 40 years ago as a recent photo school graduate, of the quality achievable with ANY of the major players systems, I would have laughed at your face and checked you into the nearest and handiest insane asylum. We have it really, really good today.
  • How YOU (not me, not the test site, not the youtuber with a bunch of viewers, no matter how much you like or don't like him) get ALONG with the usability of the camera is #1 and then some. Easily #1. We can quibble about lenses - and for me, I do, because I'm very picky, but if you don't like working with a camera, it's game over. Note that in an earlier paragraph I said there was a thought pattern I said I would have dual systems - why did I not choose Sony? I can't stand their bodies. I honestly can't get along with them. So it's game over, right there.
  • The more you are a jpeg only shooter, the more the way the camera defaults it's processing to what they think is natural/correct/whatever is going to matter to you.
    • Personally, I could never shoot this way, but for those who do, if you don't get along with the native output from a camera systems jpegs, and you're of an understanding that these can be changed to some degree, then again, it's game over, the brand ain't for you.
I sense that you're likely heading over to the R5 and that's cool. In summary, I'd say don't place so much thought into sensor type arguments, and no, sensor types don't matter much at all to RAW shooters with regards to sharpness, and again, most everything today is quite sharp and it's often other aspects of lens image quality that become to matter more.

Good luck, we'll miss you if you leave, but you gotta do what you gotta do!
Hi Mike,

Thanks for all of your excellent input!

I like to debate, discuss, and learn about cameras and gear. It's really all I do outside of family time. If Im not working with my camera Im shooting for fun.

I started with Nikon and shot Nikon for 9 straight years. When the Z6/Z7 came out I sold my D850 and bought a Z7. One of many mistakes Ive made over the years lol. The auto focus was so bad that I switched to the Sony a7riv. That system was a nightmare for me personally. Flawed hot shoe design and too many cramps and blisters using their bodies.

Also, the APS throat size of their mount never set well with me. I don't understand why you would cover the corner of your sensors with the mount and also limit your flexibility in lens design. Nikon at 55mm and Canon at 54mm have a huge advantage. Just my opinion though.

When it comes to lenses, ergonomics, customer service and overall experience I have to say that Im a Canon guy. Have been for the last 5 years.

I will say this, I think this group is fantastic and I will stop by often to see what's happening in the Nikon world!

I wish you all nothing but the best! Happy Father's Day and take care!

Rick
 

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