Clinical vs. Character?

"My drawing has character because I used cheap crayons" just does not measure up to our discussions here. ;)
Or, how about my drawing has character because I used very expensive crayons. 😂

OR, Maybe this all boils down to like they say “It ain’t what you got that matters but what you do with it.
Neither is very relevant compared to any ability to produce a good looking drawing or a good looking photograph :-(

Often it is what you do with whatever you are using :-)
 
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Thank you for this thoughtful post.

I believe your second sentence is disproven by your own addition.

I am here to improve my understanding of the tools with which I attempt to tell the stories I know to others. There are myriad layers involved not least of which is the incredibly wonderful visual system that we are gifted with.

So here I am traveling through a complicated woven thread of thoughts about a craft and a medium for delivery of story written cumulatively by thoughtful and dedicated practitioners and you jump aboard and sing along.

With thought and care and knowledge and more.

And disprove your thesis.

I love it.

Thanks

John
 
Just a note to thank you, Robert, for the series of posts you have made over the last period of time that is being so successful at provoking in a positive manner a mixed group of talented participants to add so much cumulative knowledge of this game we all play in order to speak the stories we wish to tell.

You are good at starting these threads and good at helping them have a life.

I suspect that you are between creative projects at the moment and have a bit of time to share. I appreciate your spending some of that time here and using your story telling skills to draw out some good stuff for us all to learn from.

Thank you,

John
 
  • People are generally defensive about their purchases. If we're talking about modern lenses that are in the fast prime territory, none are cheap and not every forum member is living with infinite discretionary spending ability. So this works both ways - those who dropped a lot on, say, F mount glass for their D850 are likely to defend it to the hills ("I don't see the Z mount lenses being so much better and I think they are clinical") (which is ironic when some of the lenses they just bought were considered - you guessed it - "clinical" compared to older AF-D or AIS glass), and then of course those who invested a truckload of rupee in the latest Z glass aren't really keen on hearing it's no good.
Likewise; people who've bought cheaper stuff don't want to feel inadequate about their purchases. So I can't afford the £2500 f2.8 zoom, but the £1000 f4 version is fine and I can make it work for me. A lot of sales of the expensive stuff is driven by such fear of inadequacy. But the other way round; you'l never hear Leica users openly regret their purchases, even when they know that they could have bought something better for a lot less. ;-)
  • Since you brought up audio in your earlier post, specifically vinyl, we'll head there briefly once again. I was "in the biz" when CD first came out, and lord it sounded like bloody hell. A vast majority of the engineering types were "but it's perfect - the math says so" or something to that effect. Or "The problem is in the mastering - CD is so much more accurate, what you're hearing is the mastering" - which has some truth to it. But then people started *questioning* the status quo and dug deeper, and we (over time) find out a lot about what we weren't measuring, and what other aspects of audio were causing some of the harshness - and to be quite clear - it's not just one thing - it was several, from the early brick wall filters, the impact of jitter, insufficient sample rate versus the filters we had in the converters at the time, some problems with the early Sony based storage medium, to mastering that was optimized for analog and so forth. But the point was that minds were opened and people learned and things improved. Today, I'm a long retired ex-audiophile - I have no dog in this hunt at all, and honestly could care less - a good recording is a good recording, whether it be put down on 1/2" tape in 1965 or 24/192 digital from yesterday. I could care less - I enjoy some vinyl, I have no problem with well done digital. Good = Good. So I want to get into this concept of open mind/questioning/learning/exploration in the next section of this post to tie things together...
Some of the early digital masters were poor, admittedly, but the fact is that modern digital recordings are measurably better than that achieved with analogue tapes, and modern digital music files can and do sound measurably better than anything on vinyl. Vinyl is objectively a poor recording/playback medium compared to modern digital sources. There's nothing wrong with liking that sound, as long as you're aware that you're listening to the flaws of the system as well.

Sticking with the audio analogies; another particular amusement of mine is in reading/hearing people gush forth about valve amps. And how 'rich' or 'warm' the sound is etc. The thing about valve amps, is that they tend to suit a particular type of music, often the favourite type as enjoyed by the engineer/s. Thus they don't work well across diverse genres. So very much a niche application. And that's before we get into trying to get perfectly matched pairs of valves....

People like old/flawed things because of sentimental reasons, more than anything. They can be evocative, or lend a certain flavour that the individual subjectively prefers. And that's all fine. As long as we acknowledge that they are flawed and that our experience is very much subjective.
Sorry for the long winded post that likely lost a *lot* of readers....
Ngl I did get a bit bored with the verbosity, and skimmed through it. You're generally bang on though, no question.
 
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I do own a lens with "character": a Samyang 500/8 reflex on its own T2Z adaptor. When I say character, I mean flawed, seriously flawed such as not sharp, low contrast, manual focusing, fixed aperture, must be used with an accessory lens hood & needs much work in post.

In its favour: it's light, small & importantly - great fun to use. I also own the 200-500/5.6 that is not only a stop faster with much better IQ but heavy & not particularly fun to use.

The 2 Z primes I own (105/2.8 & 85/1.8) are not characterful but what I would call optimal. The term "clinical" is used by those who want to narrow the gap between their characterful lenses & ones with the least flaws. I can see the point of say an 85mm lenses that's soft wide open around the edges & sharp in the centre for portrait use. What to me is unnecessary, is calling optimally designed lenses clinical when it's not meant to be a compliment at all!

Another misfired arrow aimed at "clinical" lenses is inferior bokeh which flies in the face of S f1.2 lenses & the Plena. Apart from being subjective, I'd say the bokeh is hardly "poor" on most Z series zooms & slower primes.

From personal experience, it's far easier to mimic character in post than remove flaws during post by a long way! It's not sharpness v. great bokeh.
 
From personal experience, it's far easier to mimic character in post than remove flaws during post by a long way! It's not sharpness v. great bokeh.
I've owned quite a few highly corrected lenses that also have lovely out-of-focus rendering. You can have both.

I personally dislike using the "mimic character in post" approach, as I've said above in this thread, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if it works for you.

I've managed to accumulate a wide variety of lenses over the decades, so I have the option of choosing particular lenses for particular looks. I appreciate not everyone has or even wants this option.

-Dave-
 
I personally dislike using the "mimic character in post" approach, as I've said above in this thread, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if it works for you.

...

-Dave-
I guess that’s one of the reasons my subjective opinions differ so much from others. I have zero interest in spending my time post-processing images. Photography is a hobby for me, and I like to spend the limited time I have for it capturing images. For as long as RAW files have existed, I’ve dutifully saved them, “just in case” I want to work on some one-in-a-million shot. But I just don’t enjoy spending my energy in that way. So I prefer to use tools that affect the image at the time of capture. And that includes using many lenses which fail to meet modern metrics of optical fidelity. Of course, I’m a bit of a hypocrite, as I generally do not disable the in-camera corrections of lens distortion and aberration.

For those who do post-process their work, I can see the benefit of starting with as “perfect” an image as possible.
 
I don't see this as a Vs. situation. Sometimes I choose a lens as highly corrected and transparent as I own. Other times I opt for a lens that slathers its imperfections all over the frame. Depends on intent.

I'm not a fan of the "fix it in the mix" approach, though I'll do this if I have to. I'd rather have the look I'm going for baked in at the source.

-Dave-
My thinking too. I have highly corrected lenses and I have character lenses. They all have a place and time, but I generally default to clinical.
 
The analogy with audio record/reproduce systems is most apt. In both cases, if there is distortion in the system, it is up to the aesthetic judgement of the creator/operator to decide which [microphone's or lens'] distortion is preferable or more pleasant. Usually, if the distortion is pronounced and easily noticeable, it distracts from the program material and drags the [listener's or viewer's] experience down. On rare occasions, the distortion is somehow appropriate and adds to the work.

--
-Keith B-
 
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I liken it to old movies shot on film (that I grew up with), to movies shot on video tape when it first came out. The video tape or blue ray dvd was FAR superior and it was so horrible I thought it was fake! Lol!

I used to think it was just nostalgia for the old look. I'm not so sure now.

We've all heard the old saying that colour presents reality and black and white presents the soul. Why do we say such things? Where do these ideas even come from?

I find the whole discussion utterly fascinating

I love the idea in the Navajo Indian rug. I actually don't know what I'm talking about really so if I upset anyone I apologize unconditionally. But I think the idea is that an imperfection is deliberately included in the rug to allow the spirit in? To allow the spirit to speak? If us humans aim for human perfection that's all we got...... us humans. If we leave a human weakness in there, then the spirit of God can move in and suddenly we're in the depths of infinite mystery. That's why suffering is so salvific for us but that's another forum of course.....

Yeah I know right but I promise you there's only a glass of water sitting in front of me!
 
We've all heard the old saying that colour presents reality and black and white presents the soul. Why do we say such things? Where do these ideas even come from?
I know it as a quote from Samual Fuller (playing 'Joe The Cameraman' from the movie "The State Of Things [1982]): "Life is in color, but black and white is more realistic."
 
--
“The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all possible worlds - the pessimist fears this is true.” James Branch Cabell
 
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I very generally agree but not because you're right but because I prefer to see the initial image as just the start of producing a photo (I don't always tinker in post). It's my preference not the "right" thing do do.

I've always been amused by those on Flickr who post to non-ending groups who also state that any post processing is devaluing photography so RAWs are unnecessary & the original SOOC is the "truth". The problem with this is a SOOC image is just an interpretation that can depend on the WB &/or Picture Control. There's absolutely nothing wrong with not wanting to PP but when the proponents proclaim their work is "true" makes me speculate they just don't know how to edit. So what is a true-to-life image - only from a 50mm lenses used at f8? All photographs are an interpretation onto a flat surface anyway.

As aphorisms are fashionable in this thread, I'll add one that stuck in my mind voiced by the founder of photo club I belonged to: "Painting is about what you put in & photography is about what you leave out!" Like most such phrases - has an element of truth.
 
It's one thing to make statements about measures and metrics. It is another thing to make statements about preferences. People have a right to prefer what they prefer when making aesthetic choices without being negatively characterized on the internet.
Absolutely! I prefer BBF but not everyone does (as an example).
 
Okay, I'm gonna state unequivocally that the idea that a lens like an 85 1.2s or Plena or Noct .98 is "cold and clinical" is a concept designed to protect clearly inferior optics.

In virtually all cases, a lens is designed to pass light with the best fidelity possible. That is the key function. Plus or minus regarding magnification, our lenses are essentially WINDOWS.

We measure a lens on the fundamental level of how well it does this WITHOUT disturbing the reality of what we're capturing on a sensor.

And that is the baseline, the first step in optical engineering and has been since the first lenses were designed. Are there variances in this approach? Of course. Some lenses are specifically designed to distort perspectives and color, but that is not what we're talking about here.

A "clinical" or "cold and clinical" lens means you have a lens that is devoid of distortion, softness or lack of contrast. It intrudes less on the passage of light than a so-called "lens with character." The character of an image should start clean and unencumbered by weaker optical design. The character of the image should be the choice of the artist both at the scene in post. Less "character" from a lens means more latitude to manipulate the image to the satisfaction of the artist.

And this why my Zeiss lenses are gone. And even in the world of filmmaking, it's why the top cinema glass from Arri and Hawk see more use than Zeiss these days.

Cold & Clinical simply means accuracy. It means purity. It suggests that a lens is so good at passing light, that the manipulation of the final photo and its ultimate qualities will be more fully in the hands of the artist. If you know what you're doing it's always going to better to have the option of choosing "character" rather being stuck with it because of an inferior lens.

So is my Nikon 135mm Plena more clinical than my previous Zeiss 135? Of course it is. That's what makes it better than the Zeiss is every way important to shooting and why it's regarded as the best on the market. It's what every lens maker chases after with premium glass all the way down to kit lenses.

Okay. Have a nice day!

Robert
Ok, here’s my take: When I got my Z6 in 2019, I bought the 50mm f1.8 quite soon after. I was thinking I needed one fast lense given the 24-70 kit lense was f4. I wasn’t into discussions about lenses and character/clinical. But I really didn’t like the images from the 50mm. Still don’t. I cant describe what it is; I just don’t like them. They are razor sharp, but still. Something didn’t appeal to me, so it stays in the closet. Then some months ago I got the 35mm f1.4, a lense with some «character» according to reviewers. That was a great lense for me. Immediately liked the images it produced right out of camera, so it stays in my Z6. On my D700 I had both a 50mm f1.4 and a 35mm f2.0. Also there the 50mm was the sharpest, but gave me images that was too clean. The 35 stayed on the camera. And its not about 50mm being a format I don’t enjoy. I do enjoy the 24-120mm though, and thats sharp.

I don’t know what it is, but theres something with some lenses that appeals to me, and something that doesnt.
I prefer what the 40mm f2 and the 50mm f2.8 MC deliver to what I receive from the 50mm f1.8 S. I do own all three. The manager of the name dealer in my megalopolis told me he has owned the 50mm f1.2 S as well as the 1.8 S, and the 50mm f2.8 MC is his favorite 50mm. When people throw down absolutes about preferences in things like lenses, such as characterizing preferences as covering up for inferiority, etc. . . Well. It's one thing to make statements about measures and metrics. It is another thing to make statements about preferences. People have a right to prefer what they prefer when making aesthetic choices without being negatively characterized on the internet.
There is in fact hard math here and real absolutes outside of whatever "preferences" you might have.

You might "prefer" 2+2 = 9, but it doesn't.

And a lens that bakes in "character" that you cannot control is a LIMIT. You might perceive it as a strength, but the reality is that the result has more limits for post control. That's a 100% fact.

I'm not assaulting anyone who likes lenses with baked in "character." Use what makes you happy. I'm simply stating that you can get that character from a better lens and have greater ultimate control, should you desire it. Once my skills in PP got to a certain level, I abandoned lenses with character because they limited my ability to control an image. Again, that's science.

Robert
It is maybe necessary to dig into philosophy: Kant’s epistemology emphasizes that we don’t perceive objects directly but only as they are represented in our consciousness. "Das Ding für mich" and "das Ding an sich" highlight a subjective, phenomenal experience of objects, which may vary between individuals but is grounded in shared cognitive structures. The noumenon ("das Ding an sich") remains unknowable, existing beyond human perception or experience. For ex a fly with its multifaceted eyes will percept the object in a different way than us. So preferances will be the most appropriate thing to debate re lenses.Since there are no fixed objective truth to relay on.
 
I love the idea in the Navajo Indian rug. I actually don't know what I'm talking about really so if I upset anyone I apologize unconditionally. But I think the idea is that an imperfection is deliberately included in the rug to allow the spirit in? To allow the spirit to speak?
Related to this is the Japanese concept of Wabi-sabi: don't fixate on getting something Perfect™ because everything is in a state of flux anyway.

-Dave-
 
So… I mostly agree. In that how “good” a lens is, could very well be how much it lacks character.

However, there is nothing wrong with liking how a lesser lens happens to render a scene. And when you talk about fidelity… how often do you see bokeh balls with your eyes? I’m guessing never. So how is the lens with the best bokeh balls, even and without color fringing, the closest to what you see in real life? After all, that’s the definition of “fidelity”, right?

Besides, take dynamic range: even the best cameras don’t come close to what you and I see every day with our eyes.

So in the end, I really can’t get so worked up about this subject.
 
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As some have pointed out, it's generally best NOT to have something "baked" into an image because now you're STUCK with it.
So?

You seem to assume that people shoot in a way that they want to be able to do anything with their photo after the fact. Well, what about people who expose for high key or low key shots? They don’t really care about being able to retrieve detail from those white or black areas. Your eye never saw it as white or black, so it has nothing to do with fudelity either. It has, however, everything to do with creating something.

I don’t want to be the kind of photographer who finds new photos behind his computer. If you want to be that kind, fine, but I think you’re part of a small minority.
I really don't care what you're shooting because that "baked in" quality won't always be ideal. That's why we mostly shoot RAW; to exact as much control over our work as possible. Why damage that pursuit with baked in "character?"
Because when you shoot RAW, you can always get to the same output as if you were shooting JPEG. So it’s an expansion of your capabilities. I haven’t come across software that allows you to replicate the output of a certain lens. So then, the only way to achieve that, is by actually shooting with that lens.
 
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