Well, after trying to find it for a few hours, I've read in the manual (WOW)!

Jose, you actually need to go back to the general specifications of entry-level film SLR cameras, where the Canon Digital Rebel feature set is standard for entry-level models. (In fact, it is above standard thanks to its higher max shutter speed and x-sync.) In that market of multiple models from all makes, the free market is alive and well. And this metering selection is found on all entry-level models. Now, we simply see the same feature set being applied to an entry-level digital SLR. If any manufacturer wishes to offer an EOS 30/Elan 7 featur set at an EOS 300V/Rebel Ti price, they are certainly free to do so, thus gaining a competitive advantage in the free market. Likewise, if someone wants to offer a 10D featureset at a 300D price, they are certainly free to do that as well. But the point is, from a business perspective there is justification for any manufacturer to differentiate between their models by withholding certain features. And Canon is certainly not the only one doing it. But Canon is the only one offering consumers the choice of a sub-$1000 DSLR.

José Luís Malaquias said:

Actually, from an economics perspective, you're making a technical
mistake.
The sort of behaviour you're describing is not typical of a free
market, but rather of an oligopoly.
In a free market (where anyone would be able to enter the market
without caring for patents, and other entrance costs), another
company would imediately release a camera without the cripples, and
they would outsell Canon out of the market, because they could add
value to the camera without adding to the cost.
So, in a free market, the consequence is that you always get the
best possible product your money can buy, and the only limiting
factor is production cost.
In a free market, Canon would never get away with artificially
crippling a camera.
Since they have a monopoly of the 300D and, together with a few
other brands, they have an oligopoly of digital cameras, they can
do this and get away with it.
I can accept these are the rules of the game. But please, don't
call this a free market, which it isn't.

Click to expand...

Daniella said:

you're talking about diamond and I am talking about water...basic,
essential..you know, that sort of things.

Click to expand...

But what you are wanting is not basic nor is it essential. It is only basic and essential according to your mind, and you perspective. I, as well as thousands of other 300D users, find the 300Dmetering selection plenty adequate for effective and enjoyable photography. You have center-weighted metering, evaluative metering, partial metering, as well as a histogram to review it all. All your bases are covered. What's to complain about? That you aren't able to select them in the exact way that you want? LOL. You can get that on the 10D, if it's worth it to you! Back in the days of manual film SLR cameras, we only had center-weighted metering! And no way of instantly reviewing the exposure! Your idea of what is basic and essential is skewed to your perspective. You already have more metering/exposure power on the 300D than many photographers in decades past ever had! In fact, up until just a couple years ago, the only entry-level SLR cameras to offer partial/spot metering were the Canon Rebels and the Minolta Maxxum 5. If you were a Pentax or Nikon user, partial/spot metering was a luxury not available on entry-level SLR cameras. So as you can see, having center-weighted metering, evaluative metering, AND partial metering at your beck and call in any which way is not uniformly considered a basic, essential feature. But that's moot, because you really do have use of center-weighted, evaluative, and partial metering. So your complaint really is much ado about nothing. You have it! Use it!

Thanks for your comment.
As I have tried to explain, I'm afraid I didn't get my point across.

I am not complaining, and I love my 300D, even with all its limitations. I think that it is the best value that money can buy in this price range.

What I have an issue with is trying to sell the "free market" logo on any corporate practice with the argument that you can always look elsewhere.

From my economics classes I learned two things about free markets:
-There is no entrance-barrier.

-As a consequence, companies have to sell the best possible product at the least possible cost, or else they get thrown out of the market.

Now, the second premise is clearly not met when a company deliberately removes features from a product that would not mean any added cost (sometimes, there is even a cost involved in removing that functionality). So, if the company manages to sell a product with less features than another product that would cost the same to produce, it means that the competition isn't perfect, and the only possible explanation is that premise number one hasn't been met, which is clearly the case.

If there was no entrance barrier, tomorrow I would start selling a 300D model without the crippling. It would cost me the same to produce as Canon's product, except mine would be better because of no crippling. Guess who's camera people would buy? The product would have improved without added cost, and the free market would have worked.

So, what's keeping me from doing it? I don't have a hundred million dollars to enter the competition and market a similar camera. Not many companies do either, and so they can have an understanding between them not to compete on a pure price vs. features, and thus product segmentation arises. They can afford to use competition techniques like the one you described, which is fine with me. I just don't want them to defend their tactics with the "free market" mantra. In a free market, they would have to sell the best possible product at the smallest possible price, and that can be mathematically proven.

T3 said:

José Luís Malaquias said:

Actually, from an economics perspective, you're making a technical
mistake.
The sort of behaviour you're describing is not typical of a free
market, but rather of an oligopoly.
In a free market (where anyone would be able to enter the market
without caring for patents, and other entrance costs), another
company would imediately release a camera without the cripples, and
they would outsell Canon out of the market, because they could add
value to the camera without adding to the cost.
So, in a free market, the consequence is that you always get the
best possible product your money can buy, and the only limiting
factor is production cost.
In a free market, Canon would never get away with artificially
crippling a camera.
Since they have a monopoly of the 300D and, together with a few
other brands, they have an oligopoly of digital cameras, they can
do this and get away with it.
I can accept these are the rules of the game. But please, don't
call this a free market, which it isn't.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

pbleic said:

Daniella:

How much is your time worth? You spend so much time complaining.

Click to expand...

not enough time.

pbleic said:

If you sell it now, you would lose $100 or so...

Click to expand...

too much money lost.

pbleic said:

On the other point:

Evaluative metering in contrasty scenes is always very tricky.

Click to expand...

was never tricky with my 300$ camere and evaluative mode, because it condiser the whole scene..not only the focusing point. My complain, and I will repeat it again, is that when you use the central focusing point, the so called "evaluative" meetering is gone...you only get partial. it is way too weighted on the focusing point then.

that'S all I am saying and I will keep repeating it so that other people will know about this and not make the buying mistake that I did. When peopel want to buy a camera..they want to hear about all the good AND the bad things about a camera...that is why I complain. And also in hope of getting the message accross to Canon if they ever read anythign here..and in support to other people who have the same problems...I bet that many people are just afraid to bring out their problems here because they get respond like yours or worse.

Get

pbleic said:

a copy of Outdoor Photographer this month - there is an article
that covers exactly this point. In "Understanding Exposure" Bryan
Petersen also talks about this. This is the setting in which you
meter a grey card, or do a spot meter on something middle
reflectance (any color), or best - use an incident light meter. The
"evaluative meter" doesn't know which to evaluate - the dark or the
light. So small shifts willl change the meter reading significantly.

Click to expand...

the evaluative meetering always worked the same way for me, NO matter what camera I used..it always evaluate the FULL scene. but not the 300D!

and I think that you're the one who wont listen...you surely don't get the point.

what advise? to switch to manual focus??? I don't want to use that tiny switch all the time..it is a very LAME work around. And not practical if at all possible when you photograph moving subjects with rapidly changing light.

You people don't seem to realize that I don't take only photo of flower pot or garden. Now your suggestion that I would be better off with a point and shoot is a perfect example of your so called "good" advises...

see what I mean? now that was a good advise no? now just tell me how do you focus fast enough of a flying bird with a point and shoot? You are right..I wont listen to your stupid advises.

db. said:

This is my last post on
the subject. It's useless
to offer her advice:
Daniella won't listen;
she has her mind made
up.

(She'd be--anyway--
better off with a P&S.
Too bad, because she
does have an eye for
photography.)

--
db.

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

now watch out for the Canon army...

José Luís Malaquias said:

What I have an issue with is trying to sell the "free market" logo
on any corporate practice with the argument that you can always
look elsewhere.

From my economics classes I learned two things about free markets:
-There is no entrance-barrier.
-As a consequence, companies have to sell the best possible product
at the least possible cost, or else they get thrown out of the
market.

Now, the second premise is clearly not met when a company
deliberately removes features from a product that would not mean
any added cost (sometimes, there is even a cost involved in
removing that functionality). So, if the company manages to sell a
product with less features than another product that would cost the
same to produce, it means that the competition isn't perfect, and
the only possible explanation is that premise number one hasn't
been met, which is clearly the case.

If there was no entrance barrier, tomorrow I would start selling a
300D model without the crippling. It would cost me the same to
produce as Canon's product, except mine would be better because of
no crippling. Guess who's camera people would buy? The product
would have improved without added cost, and the free market would
have worked.

So, what's keeping me from doing it? I don't have a hundred million
dollars to enter the competition and market a similar camera. Not
many companies do either, and so they can have an understanding
between them not to compete on a pure price vs. features, and thus
product segmentation arises. They can afford to use competition
techniques like the one you described, which is fine with me. I
just don't want them to defend their tactics with the "free market"
mantra. In a free market, they would have to sell the best possible
product at the smallest possible price, and that can be
mathematically proven.

T3 said:

José Luís Malaquias said:

Actually, from an economics perspective, you're making a technical
mistake.
The sort of behaviour you're describing is not typical of a free
market, but rather of an oligopoly.
In a free market (where anyone would be able to enter the market
without caring for patents, and other entrance costs), another
company would imediately release a camera without the cripples, and
they would outsell Canon out of the market, because they could add
value to the camera without adding to the cost.
So, in a free market, the consequence is that you always get the
best possible product your money can buy, and the only limiting
factor is production cost.
In a free market, Canon would never get away with artificially
crippling a camera.
Since they have a monopoly of the 300D and, together with a few
other brands, they have an oligopoly of digital cameras, they can
do this and get away with it.
I can accept these are the rules of the game. But please, don't
call this a free market, which it isn't.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

José Luís Malaquias said:

"just in case", even though your system is the first one to
actually work. This happens because companies are allowed to
register patents without proving that they actually have made such
a system that works. So, if you have big pockets, you simply file a
patent for anything that comes to mind, and should someone come up
with an actual device that does what you imagined, you get to
collect the fees for other people's work.

Click to expand...

geee...amazing. I did not know this.

José Luís Malaquias said:

So, if you still want to go ahead and file your patent, you have to
spend millions in legal fees to argue your patent rights in court.

But, so you say, I will be protected once I have the patent. Right?
Wrong. Because first you need a huge infrastructure to actually
know whether someone somewhere is using your patent without your
knowledge.

Click to expand...

I know in Canada there are companies that specialize in finding those. I know that Tropicana juice brand had law suit against numerous little companies for using the name "tropicana" in their business. Even one very small company had law suits because their name was "tropicana suntan"

All these little companies had to change their name, all their business letterheads all their logos...all their identity..it was a big scandal then.

José Luís Malaquias said:

And even if you are lucky enough to catch someone using your
patent, you'd better hope it is not a big company you're up
against. Becauce, if it is, most likely their legal department may
tell them it's cheaper to sink you in legal fees and litigation
rather than pay for your license. This is a purely economical
decision. If you ask 4 million dollars for a license, but they
figure they can beat you in court by spending 2 million, they will
not hesitate.

Click to expand...

sounds logical and pretty much realistic.

José Luís Malaquias said:

Now, if you are a big company, then you are protected by the patent
system because 1) your legal costs of filing a patent are much
lower, because you have your own legal department specializing in
that. 2) you have the infrastructure to know what your competitors
are doing, and catch them using your work. 3) You have the legal
resources to withstand a legal battle until your claim eventually
wins. 4) If your opponent is a small company or individual, the
mere threat of legal action will keep them from using your work.

So, my point is that we do need a system to reward intellectual
work, but the current patent system is not it. It rewards the big
guys who stiff innovation and bully other, while penalizing the
small time inventors. This is the exact opposite of the initial
intention of having a patent system. So, I think that some thought
has to be given to the system. In principle anyone agrees with
patents. But once you meet the reality, you will be surprised how
perverted the system has become..

Click to expand...

ouch! this is amazing that it can be going on.

you think it's not basic..I think it is..you see we have a very different opinion of what's basic and what's luxery here...I consider the meetering of a camera to be a basic thing. I especialy consider that if the camera had the possibility to do something..it should controlable.

Since you like analogy a lot...here is how I see it. the 300d is a car in wich the stearing whell only goes straight. sure you can drive with it...you can go fast..you just can't turn because the whell is locked straight.

now how is that for essential

T3 said:

Daniella said:

you're talking about diamond and I am talking about water...basic,
essential..you know, that sort of things.

Click to expand...

But what you are wanting is not basic nor is it essential. It is
only basic and essential according to your mind, and you
perspective. I, as well as thousands of other 300D users, find the
300Dmetering selection plenty adequate for effective and enjoyable
photography. You have center-weighted metering, evaluative
metering, partial metering, as well as a histogram to review it
all. All your bases are covered. What's to complain about? That
you aren't able to select them in the exact way that you want?
LOL. You can get that on the 10D, if it's worth it to you! Back
in the days of manual film SLR cameras, we only had center-weighted
metering! And no way of instantly reviewing the exposure! Your
idea of what is basic and essential is skewed to your perspective.
You already have more metering/exposure power on the 300D than many
photographers in decades past ever had! In fact, up until just a
couple years ago, the only entry-level SLR cameras to offer
partial/spot metering were the Canon Rebels and the Minolta Maxxum
5. If you were a Pentax or Nikon user, partial/spot metering was a
luxury not available on entry-level SLR cameras. So as you can
see, having center-weighted metering, evaluative metering, AND
partial metering at your beck and call in any which way is not
uniformly considered a basic, essential feature. But that's moot,
because you really do have use of center-weighted, evaluative, and
partial metering. So your complaint really is much ado about
nothing. You have it! Use it!

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

Daniella68313 said:

Daniella68313 said:

light. So small shifts willl change the meter reading significantly.

Click to expand...

the evaluative meetering always worked the same way for me, NO
matter what camera I used..it always evaluate the FULL scene. but
not the 300D!

Click to expand...

Then you must have never used a Canon SLR. They pretty much all work that way. It is the Canon philosophy on metering. All the complaining in the world isn't going to get them to change it. And, it hasn't seemed to hurt them in the market.

I think you just like to complain and have people argue with you.
--
Paul
------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic/photos
Digital Rebel, Tamron 29-75 f/2.8, 17-55
Olympus E-10,TCON-14B, WCON, FL 40
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003 All rights reserved.

gartnl said:

Hi D.
I admire your stamina here .. doubt if it will have any result
though ..

Click to expand...

It will not have any results on the people that do not accept my opinion..some other people on the edge of making the same decision as me might consider the 10D instead if they hear the real story.

gartnl said:

Basically: if the green square and all other P' s were removed
including the a-dep and release lock when not in focus, but
metering/servo/fec control were added it would be a perfect camera.

Click to expand...

my yes it would be.

gartnl said:

It wouldn't be a point and shoot anymore, but hey: it isn't anyway.

Click to expand...

it's far from a point and shoot..you actualy need more tweaking and by pass and work around with that camera then with a pro camera in wich you can control these pricesely and not to worry about that many things.

gartnl said:

In the mean time I recommend the purchase of something called an
exposure meter. Mine's a Gossen Sixtomat, that will evaluate
contrast and works great togheter with the M-option.
There is a flaw in this .. why would I want to buy a $200 meter to
get a $1000 camera to expose correctly? I must have missed
something..... or am I getting old and like my dad, complaining: '
in my time things actually worked' .

Click to expand...

yes, I missed that something too..you are not alone.

gartnl said:

Daniella said:

T3 said:

Daniella said:

well..if this is an amateur DSLR..you can expect that amateurs will
expect a 1000$ camera to have those basic features that their 300$
cam had.

Click to expand...

gartnl said:

so why then does the 300$ camera has this ability? again..we are
talking about very basic photography feature here.. no fancy stuff.

Click to expand...

Daniella, you need to compare the 300D/DReb with the 300V/Rebel Ti.
And the respective prices are ~$900 for the 300D/DReb versus ~$200
for the 300V/Rebel Ti. What you'll find is that the 300D and 300V
have comparable features. But the 300D bests the 300V because it
offers a 1/4000s shutter speed versus 1/2000s, a 1/200s x-sync
versus 1/90s, a rechargeable battery versus no rechargeable, a
battery charger versus no battery charger, histogram metering
versus no histogram metering, instant review LCD versus no instant
review LCD, a memory buffer versus no memory buffer, an in-camera
CF card reader versus no in-camera CF card reader, a 6mp CMOS
imaging sensor versus no imaging sensor, etc, etc, etc. Get the
picture?!?! So, first of all, you are comparing the wrong camera
price points between the film and digital SLR worlds.

Click to expand...

no, I am comparing a 300$ point and shoot to a 1000$ DSLR. The
300$ has this control, but not the DSLR. pitty. now does the fact
that Canon released a 1000$ DSLR excuses the fact that they also
crippled it from that basic feature? sorry I don't think so.

And

gartnl said:

secondly, you seem to ignore just what you are getting with the
added cost of a 300D. And thirdly, you also forget that their are
other cameras available with the exact features you want. But you
seem to want those features without wanting to pay for them.

Click to expand...

now lets be logical about this...how much woudl it cost Canon to
give us that control? I don't beleive this would even impair the
10D sales. It really makes me lough sometimes how people can come
up with justification for this. I should be sooo greatful to Canon
for giving me the chance to give them 1000$ and get a
DSLR...crippled is a blessing! They should have crippled it even
more and people would be even more happy with it.

gartnl said:

Welcome to the free market economy and the principles of supply and
demand. If you want it, you pay for it-- just like everything else
in this world.

Click to expand...

all of you seem to think that meetering is a luxery that must cost
a fortune...hello? this is a basic thing. It should not cost a
fortune to have a working camera.

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

Click to expand...

--
nice cam .. but what's that stupid colour doing there?

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

here is what the brochure says:
Now that sounds really good...if only it would be like that..I would be happy.

"35-zone Evaluative Metering ensures accurate, consistent exposure, taking into account lighting extremes and subject position through the active focusing point. Whether the light is bright and sunny or darkly atmospheric,
whether it comes from the front or the back, exposure is detailed, natural
and flattering."

Melih Ozbek said:

Well, I remember a brochure, or an add about DR saying something
like "focus point connected metering"... I think this was no secret
to anybody. We can discuss that if it is what it should be, but it
is advertised, and known.

I don't know if there is any feature that Canon claims that DR has,
but then after you bought it you realize it doesn't have? I
remember there are some discussion about FEC but i am not sure. If
you buy things hoping that the manufacturer will make some changes
on it later, then you'll be disappointed. Firmware upgrades are
usually for fixing bugs. And apparently things you think as 'bug'
is not 'bug' for Canon.

I have a P&S camera (a casio qv3000) and I am very pleased with it,
user selectable 3 metering modes, users selectable focusing modes
which DR lacks. I bought DR for the features that my casio lacks
(which i am sure we already know). By the way, for me, as an
amateur, a $1000 DSLR is equivalent to a $300 P&S camera in its
class, perhaps that's why it is called 'entry level dslr'.

Sometimes you can make wrong decisions, if you don't like the
camera, or you don't "excuse a little crippling here and there"
then return it or sell it on ebay and go with another one that
meets your expectations. If an $300 P&S is ok for you, then buy one.

regards,

Mel

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

Thanks for the warning, LOL
But it's not the Canon army I am worried about. It's the "free market" army.

They tend to defend free market only when it suits them. Because if you were to really go free market corporations wouold have to relish a lot of market control they now posess.

So, when you first talk about empowering the market they strike back at you with what are really status quo protection measures disguised under the "free market" mantra.

If you would come up with a trick to turn around the crippling of this camera (say a firmware upgrade you wrote yourself) and you went to market with it, they would throw the DMCA at you, threaten to put you in jail for by-passing their feeble protection, and there goes the free market out the window. Do you think I am exagerating? HP, Epson and Lexmark are already trying to use provisions of the DMCA to keep companies from selling cheap alternatives to their overly expensive ink cartridges. And there goes your free market once again....

Daniella said:

José Luís Malaquias said:

What I have an issue with is trying to sell the "free market" logo
on any corporate practice with the argument that you can always
look elsewhere.

From my economics classes I learned two things about free markets:
-There is no entrance-barrier.
-As a consequence, companies have to sell the best possible product
at the least possible cost, or else they get thrown out of the
market.

Now, the second premise is clearly not met when a company
deliberately removes features from a product that would not mean
any added cost (sometimes, there is even a cost involved in
removing that functionality). So, if the company manages to sell a
product with less features than another product that would cost the
same to produce, it means that the competition isn't perfect, and
the only possible explanation is that premise number one hasn't
been met, which is clearly the case.

If there was no entrance barrier, tomorrow I would start selling a
300D model without the crippling. It would cost me the same to
produce as Canon's product, except mine would be better because of
no crippling. Guess who's camera people would buy? The product
would have improved without added cost, and the free market would
have worked.

So, what's keeping me from doing it? I don't have a hundred million
dollars to enter the competition and market a similar camera. Not
many companies do either, and so they can have an understanding
between them not to compete on a pure price vs. features, and thus
product segmentation arises. They can afford to use competition
techniques like the one you described, which is fine with me. I
just don't want them to defend their tactics with the "free market"
mantra. In a free market, they would have to sell the best possible
product at the smallest possible price, and that can be
mathematically proven.

T3 said:

José Luís Malaquias said:

Actually, from an economics perspective, you're making a technical
mistake.
The sort of behaviour you're describing is not typical of a free
market, but rather of an oligopoly.
In a free market (where anyone would be able to enter the market
without caring for patents, and other entrance costs), another
company would imediately release a camera without the cripples, and
they would outsell Canon out of the market, because they could add
value to the camera without adding to the cost.
So, in a free market, the consequence is that you always get the
best possible product your money can buy, and the only limiting
factor is production cost.
In a free market, Canon would never get away with artificially
crippling a camera.
Since they have a monopoly of the 300D and, together with a few
other brands, they have an oligopoly of digital cameras, they can
do this and get away with it.
I can accept these are the rules of the game. But please, don't
call this a free market, which it isn't.

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

Click to expand...

quite the opposite..I was using a EOS film rebel before...never had a problem with its exposure. It was consistant and reliable. it if was linked to the focusing point, it was evaluative enough to consider the rest of the scene as well. I have many photos with the film rebel. One of the reason we went ahead and got the digital rebel.

this was taken with the film rebel:

http://www.pbase.com/image/1076636

Now I don't have exposure problem with the 300d all the time..but I do get a good share of overexposed photos and underexposed photos..only because I use the central focusing point alone.

with the film rebel, we always used the central focusing point. I don't remember any problem like that.

pbleic said:

pbleic said:

pbleic said:

light. So small shifts willl change the meter reading significantly.

Click to expand...

the evaluative meetering always worked the same way for me, NO
matter what camera I used..it always evaluate the FULL scene. but
not the 300D!

Click to expand...

Then you must have never used a Canon SLR. They pretty much all
work that way. It is the Canon philosophy on metering. All the
complaining in the world isn't going to get them to change it. And,
it hasn't seemed to hurt them in the market.

I think you just like to complain and have people argue with you.

Click to expand...

I like to complain about this so that people who are in the buying decision know about these things. Now many people here can't accept that someone is saying anything negative about that camera. That's their problem, not mine. I will say my opinion on that camera when even I want. now that's my right.

It does not mean that I don't like the camera..I just like it 90% of the time and dislike it about 10% of the time.

pbleic said:

--
Paul
------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic/photos
Digital Rebel, Tamron 29-75 f/2.8, 17-55
Olympus E-10,TCON-14B, WCON, FL 40
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003 All rights reserved.

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

José Luís Malaquias said:

Thanks for the warning, LOL
But it's not the Canon army I am worried about. It's the "free
market" army.
They tend to defend free market only when it suits them. Because if
you were to really go free market corporations wouold have to
relish a lot of market control they now posess.

So, when you first talk about empowering the market they strike
back at you with what are really status quo protection measures
disguised under the "free market" mantra.

If you would come up with a trick to turn around the crippling of
this camera (say a firmware upgrade you wrote yourself) and you
went to market with it, they would throw the DMCA at you, threaten
to put you in jail for by-passing their feeble protection, and
there goes the free market out the window. Do you think I am
exagerating? HP, Epson and Lexmark are already trying to use
provisions of the DMCA to keep companies from selling cheap
alternatives to their overly expensive ink cartridges. And there
goes your free market once again....

Click to expand...

wow, I hope this will not happen. Not that I use much of the alternative ink cartridge..but I like to have that option available. I wonder about Sigma, since I read that they never bought the right from Canon to make Canon mount lenses...that's why they have to rechip their lenses when ever Canon decide to change something. I wonder how come Canon did not managed to stop Sigma from creating lenses with their mount?

phototakeouter said:

no, i'm sure it doesn't, because if it did you'd eventually get to
the level of betterness where you would stop your whining.

Click to expand...

but that's where you make the mistake...I do not whine..I just simply state the real facts...I simply report here how my camera is behaving. so yeah...I will continue to report that...get used to it.

If there is ever a change in behavior, I will let you know

Beside..if nobody report problems we will not see any fix. We have already seen people finding work around a lot of these limitations...FEC remote change...DOF preview button, and now the mono jack!

if nobody complain and report problems, nothign of this would come out.

And at

phototakeouter said:

the rate you've been going on in here for the past few weeks, we
don't see any sign of that.

phototakeouter said:

Does

phototakeouter said:

it change the camera's features?

Click to expand...

it might if enough people complain.

Click to expand...

no. another delusional response.

phototakeouter said:

phototakeouter said:

Really, Daniella, with all the photographic talent you do have,
it's a shame to see you carrying on this way.

Click to expand...

why? because I simply state the problems that I have with the
camera? now there is nothing wrong with doing so

Click to expand...

state your fact.
once, twice, three times even.
go beyond that and you're just making a public nuisance and a
laughing stock out of yourself.

phototakeouter said:

I will write this over and over again, to whom ever wants to read
it. now if someone don,t want to read any negative comments..all
they have to do is simply skip my posts.

Click to expand...

see that's just an example of how childish and selfish you are
being because given that you are a talented photographer, people
will want to see what you have to say, but probably not when they
realise it's the same old drivel ad nauseum.

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

slc_rebel said:

Well, you do have to give a big hand to Canon bringing us a 6mp
DSLR for well under $1000.

Click to expand...

yes and that is the excuses that they are counting on people to bring up when someone talk about the crippling problem.

slc_rebel said:

I know what you are saying about the crippling, but I will ride
this out until I can get all the featurs of a 1D with 8mp for under
$2500. Which I don't think will be too long. Hope less than 2
years.

Click to expand...

yes me too. but what worry me also is that the same thing as the Olympus C740 will happen. Olympus released a crippled version of the C730 and removed some of the features of the previous model. People complained and the next model all the feature were back...

surely if Canon release a 400D with these features selectable...there will be not much resell value left with the 300D. Now people would realize just how much this crippling affect the camera.

It is only accepted now because of the inovative price break below the 1000$ barrier.

That will not last, I would bet.

slc_rebel said:

Keep an eye out for the hack.

Click to expand...

I think we might be safer to rely on work around then to hold our breath for the hack... at least now there is a workaroudn for the AI focus..that is already half of the crippling gone, sort of.

slc_rebel said:

James

Daniella said:

well, in my case they were wrong...I will curse them when ever I
want and as often as I want it's my only consolation.

hehe...

GiVeMeAuDi said:

i really do enjoy the cam....

but it does seem like C2100 had more control

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

Click to expand...

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

I don't know your history, but if you were shooting film, these exposure errors could have been happening with the rebel and you didn't know it because the lab was fixing everything in the prints. Since digital doesn't have the lattitude that film (negative, not slide) does, could it be that you weren't exposing properly with the film camera?

I know I've had to examine my metering technique since moving to digital.

Daniella said:

quite the opposite..I was using a EOS film rebel before...never had
a problem with its exposure. It was consistant and reliable. it
if was linked to the focusing point, it was evaluative enough to
consider the rest of the scene as well. I have many photos with
the film rebel. One of the reason we went ahead and got the
digital rebel.

this was taken with the film rebel:

http://www.pbase.com/image/1076636

Now I don't have exposure problem with the 300d all the time..but I
do get a good share of overexposed photos and underexposed
photos..only because I use the central focusing point alone.

with the film rebel, we always used the central focusing point. I
don't remember any problem like that.

Click to expand...

--
Jeremy Kindy

That's silly. On the 300D you have center-weighted metering, evaluative metering, and partial metering. All your basic metering needs are met.

If you want to talk about basic and essential, that's a simple center-weighted meter, like what you get with a trusty Nikon FM3A, which like most manual cameras only has center-weighted metering. Next step up is getting evaluative/matrix metering, like you get on an entry-level Nikon N65. At this point, you are beyond what is bare basic and essential. Now add partial metering, like you get on an entry-level Rebel Ti (or Digital Rebel). Now you're well beyond what is basic and essential. Now add to that a histogram to review detailed exposure feedback-- way beyond what is basic and essential. If you STILL can't get a decent exposure with all these tools at hand, the problem isn't the camera but the photographer.

So your analogy of a car that only goes straight is just plain silly. Maybe you just need to learn how to drive the car?

Daniella said:

you think it's not basic..I think it is..you see we have a very
different opinion of what's basic and what's luxery here...I
consider the meetering of a camera to be a basic thing. I
especialy consider that if the camera had the possibility to do
something..it should controlable.

Since you like analogy a lot...here is how I see it. the 300d is a
car in wich the stearing whell only goes straight. sure you can
drive with it...you can go fast..you just can't turn because the
whell is locked straight.

now how is that for essential

Click to expand...

Even if you don't use the alternative ink, the mere fact that it exists keeps the prices lower, because you can bet that if they manage to sue the competition off the market, you can be sure that the prices of ink cartridges will skyrocket.

As for the mount, they can't keep Sigma from selling its lenses because they don't hold a patent over the mount, and it would cost them a bundle to change their whole product line to a patented mount.

That's what Intel did when it wasn't able to sue AMD out of the market. They changed the processor socket to a stupid useless patented socket so that they would keep AMD from selling processors that you could just plug into any motherboard instead of an Intel. That's how they stiffle competition. Thank God, it would be too expensive (especially in terms of dissatisfied customers) for Canon to replace all their lenses mounting system to a patented one, otherwise they'd do it.

Daniella said:

Daniella68313 said:

wow, I hope this will not happen. Not that I use much of the

Click to expand...

alternative ink cartridge..but I like to have that option
available. I wonder about Sigma, since I read that they never
bought the right from Canon to make Canon mount lenses...that's why
they have to rechip their lenses when ever Canon decide to change
something. I wonder how come Canon did not managed to stop Sigma
from creating lenses with their mount?

Click to expand...

Daniella:

You are not stating facts. You are stating your opinion and the world as YOU experience it. Others, working with YOUR camera, would have a different experience. You are repeating your opinion over and over and over. It suggests that you don't think people will listen to you.

Paul

Daniella said:

phototakeouter said:

no, i'm sure it doesn't, because if it did you'd eventually get to
the level of betterness where you would stop your whining.

Click to expand...

but that's where you make the mistake...I do not whine..I just
simply state the real facts...I simply report here how my camera is
behaving. so yeah...I will continue to report that...get used to
it.

If there is ever a change in behavior, I will let you know

Beside..if nobody report problems we will not see any fix. We have
already seen people finding work around a lot of these
limitations...FEC remote change...DOF preview button, and now the
mono jack!

if nobody complain and report problems, nothign of this would come
out.

And at

Daniella68313 said:

the rate you've been going on in here for the past few weeks, we
don't see any sign of that.

Daniella68313 said:

Does

Daniella68313 said:

it change the camera's features?

Click to expand...

it might if enough people complain.

Click to expand...

no. another delusional response.

Daniella68313 said:

Daniella68313 said:

Really, Daniella, with all the photographic talent you do have,
it's a shame to see you carrying on this way.

Click to expand...

why? because I simply state the problems that I have with the
camera? now there is nothing wrong with doing so

Click to expand...

state your fact.
once, twice, three times even.
go beyond that and you're just making a public nuisance and a
laughing stock out of yourself.

Daniella68313 said:

I will write this over and over again, to whom ever wants to read
it. now if someone don,t want to read any negative comments..all
they have to do is simply skip my posts.

Click to expand...

see that's just an example of how childish and selfish you are
being because given that you are a talented photographer, people
will want to see what you have to say, but probably not when they
realise it's the same old drivel ad nauseum.

Click to expand...

--
I am not an English native speaker!
http://www.pbase.com/zylen
http://www.photosig.com/go/users/userphotos?id=26918

Click to expand...

--
Paul
------------------------------------------------
Pbase supporter
Photographs at: http://www.pbase.com/pbleic/photos
Digital Rebel, Tamron 29-75 f/2.8, 17-55
Olympus E-10,TCON-14B, WCON, FL 40
--------------------------------------------------
Copyright 2003 All rights reserved.