The Limits of Perception

AeroPhotographer

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Hello Medium Format People,

I come from a background of 4x5 film photography. I was into that big time, selling my work in the Focus Gallery in San Francisco and the Image Gallery in Palo Alto. When we moved to another home in 2001, I sadly said goodbye to my darkroom and gave my 4x5 enlarger to the local high school. Now I'm settled with Sony A6400 and A7R4 and A7R5.

I've considered medium format many times, but as others on this format have pointed out, all of the popular digital formats have approximately the same pixel spacing. And I can add, that the spacing is close enough to exceed the resolution of most lenses. I've written that full frame image quality exceeds APSC, but we can't see it. I suspect that MF advantage over FF can't be perceived either.

So I'm writing here to ask if you think that MF's advantage over smaller formats can be perceived and if so, can you cite evidence.

Many thanks,

Alan
 
Whoa, can of worms time! ;)

For what it's worth, I did a lot of work I still like with Full Frame, and with APS-C. I now use a GFX 100S and would find it hard to go back to APS-C.

Here's a different question though: with your history in 4x5, why aren't you looking at digital view camera setups? Do you miss the movements you had with 4x5? You can have almost all of them back with a digital view camera setup.

This is relevant to your question because it's the reason I switched to 33mm x 44mm sensors. In a nutshell, a GFX 50R combined with a Pentax 645 35mm lens on my Toyo VX23D gave me a full blown digital view camera experience. I could have used a full frame body, but then the field of view of the 35mm Pentax would not have been as wide as it is with 33mm x 44mm.

I'm now using Arca-Swiss F-Universalis with a GFX 100S and technical camera lenses. The widest field of view I can get on this setup with a really good lens is still 35mm (which works for me because I'm not a wide angle fan). If I switched to a medium format back, I could use the wider Rodenstock lenses (but that's a lot more money).
 
Hello Medium Format People,

I come from a background of 4x5 film photography. I was into that big time, selling my work in the Focus Gallery in San Francisco and the Image Gallery in Palo Alto. When we moved to another home in 2001, I sadly said goodbye to my darkroom and gave my 4x5 enlarger to the local high school. Now I'm settled with Sony A6400 and A7R4 and A7R5.

I've considered medium format many times, but as others on this format have pointed out, all of the popular digital formats have approximately the same pixel spacing. And I can add, that the spacing is close enough to exceed the resolution of most lenses. I've written that full frame image quality exceeds APSC, but we can't see it. I suspect that MF advantage over FF can't be perceived either.

So I'm writing here to ask if you think that MF's advantage over smaller formats can be perceived and if so, can you cite evidence.

Many thanks,

Alan
Maybe I'm misunderstanding the question but isn't this just a function of how big you print, how much you like to crop, and/or how much you like to pixel peep?

If you print small, don't crop, and don't pixel peep, then no, it probably doesn't matter in most cases (you will still get a benefit from the larger sensor when taking images at higher ISO).

My GF100s seems well-matched in resolution to the GF lenses I have (and to several adapted lenses). I suspect it may be undersampling the GF120.
 
Hello Medium Format People,

I come from a background of 4x5 film photography. I was into that big time, selling my work in the Focus Gallery in San Francisco and the Image Gallery in Palo Alto. When we moved to another home in 2001, I sadly said goodbye to my darkroom and gave my 4x5 enlarger to the local high school. Now I'm settled with Sony A6400 and A7R4 and A7R5.

I've considered medium format many times, but as others on this format have pointed out, all of the popular digital formats have approximately the same pixel spacing. And I can add, that the spacing is close enough to exceed the resolution of most lenses. I've written that full frame image quality exceeds APSC, but we can't see it. I suspect that MF advantage over FF can't be perceived either.

So I'm writing here to ask if you think that MF's advantage over smaller formats can be perceived and if so, can you cite evidence.

Many thanks,

Alan
I do not think that any available sensor exceeds the resolution of good lenses. Otherwise, moiré would no longer be a problem.

The MF advantage over FF or other smaller sensors has been well described in Jim's blog post, Format size and image quality.
 
I do not think that any available sensor exceeds the resolution of good lenses. Otherwise, moiré would no longer be a problem.
Agreed. I did not say sensors exceed the resolution of good lenses. I wrote that sensors exceed the resolution of most lenses.

Thanks for Jim's link.

Alan
 
Hello Medium Format People,

I come from a background of 4x5 film photography. I was into that big time, selling my work in the Focus Gallery in San Francisco and the Image Gallery in Palo Alto. When we moved to another home in 2001, I sadly said goodbye to my darkroom and gave my 4x5 enlarger to the local high school. Now I'm settled with Sony A6400 and A7R4 and A7R5.

I've considered medium format many times, but as others on this format have pointed out, all of the popular digital formats have approximately the same pixel spacing. And I can add, that the spacing is close enough to exceed the resolution of most lenses.
I don't think that last sentence is accurate. It's not accurate with GF lenses on GFX cameras. It's not accurate with Rodenstock HR Digarons on IQ4-150 cameras or on GFX cameras.
I've written that full frame image quality exceeds APSC, but we can't see it.
At what print size?
I suspect that MF advantage over FF can't be perceived either.
At what print size?
So I'm writing here to ask if you think that MF's advantage over smaller formats can be perceived and if so, can you cite evidence.
Download the files. Make prints. Use your eyes. It sounds like numbers aren't going to make a difference to you.

Do you think that an 8x10 chrome has better quality than a 6x6 chrome? Do you thing an 8x10 contact print has better quality than an 8x10 enlargement from a 6x6 neg? How about a 12x20 contact print vs a 6x6 neg?

--
https://blog.kasson.com
 
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I did not put any limitations on how the images are displayed. If you know of any application where MF perceivably has higher resolution than other formats, please share that.
 
Yes, I loved to tilt and shift my lens. I modified a 4x5 Busch Pressman to function like a view camera and hiked the hills. But I was a lot younger then. As Ansel Adams said, "As I get older, my camera gets smaller ". Fortunately photo editors can fix converging tree trunks.

Tilted lens here.

Sea Ranch
Sea Ranch

Ignore EXIF. I photographed this print with my A6400.
 
I did not put any limitations on how the images are displayed. If you know of any application where MF perceivably has higher resolution than other formats, please share that.
MF vs APS-C, scaled down to the same resolution:

 
People ask me "what print size". My reply would be any print size that you are using or likely to use.

If you put your nose against a large enough print, you'll probably be able to tell if it's MF. But are you using or likely to use that print size? It probably must be wider than 43", in light of Magnar's comparison test.

Magnar's comparison of 12mp vs 24mp was with 43" wide prints and his 30 judges were free to put their nose on the prints, but still failed to tell 12mp vs 24mp. 43" is already 3x the largest print width I've ever made.

What's the largest print you currently use?

People assume that MF produces higher image quality than smaller formats. I assume that too. But in light of Magnar's comparison, I ask if the higher quality is perceived.

Alan
 
I did not put any limitations on how the images are displayed. If you know of any application where MF perceivably has higher resolution than other formats, please share that.
MF vs APS-C, scaled down to the same resolution:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...3&x=-0.10112045376833304&y=0.3322628694975042
I love the DPR Studio Scene.

I followed your link and compared the Phase to Sony A7RV. I could not perceive a difference. But even if I could, is there an application where my (or anyone's) MF photos will be perceived as better than smaller formats?
 
I did not put any limitations on how the images are displayed. If you know of any application where MF perceivably has higher resolution than other formats, please share that.
MF vs APS-C, scaled down to the same resolution:

https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...3&x=-0.10112045376833304&y=0.3322628694975042
I love the DPR Studio Scene.

I followed your link and compared the Phase to Sony A7RV. I could not perceive a difference. But even if I could, is there an application where my (or anyone's) MF photos will be perceived as better than smaller formats?
The link provided shows considerable higher detail even when downscaled. The difference can be seen when printing sufficiently large.

Higher DR of larger sensors can be noticed as well.
 
Hello Medium Format People,

And I can add, that the spacing is close enough to exceed the resolution of most lenses.
I don't think that last sentence is accurate. It's not accurate with GF lenses on GFX cameras. It's not accurate with Rodenstock HR Digarons on IQ4-150 cameras or on GFX cameras.
Perhaps you thought I was referring only to MF lenses. When I wrote "most", I was referring to all formats.

For example when Fuji brought out the first 40mp APSC cameras they published a list of lenses which they deemed sharp enough to enjoy the 40mp sensor. The list was a minority of their lenses.

Sonyalphablog limits their 5 star lenses to those sharp enough for the 61mp FF sensor. That list is very short compared to the many lenses that he (Marc) has tested.

I'm not an internet debater and did not initiate this thread to start debates. I'm simply seeking evidence that I can visit, as to whether MF image quality is perceivably better than smaller formats. Furthermore, I did not ask the question to embarrass anyone. I'm considering whether to get into MF myself and sought some evidence.

Or maybe those of you who have MF experience will say, "No, it's not perceivably better".
 
I can't answer for all circumstances, but I am confident about at least one scenario.

For square crops at a print size of 12" x 12" I am unable to successfully distinguish my m43 images from my GFX50s or A7riv images. I've also made 150MP stitches from my a7Riv and they don't look perceivably different either at this print size.

So in that very limited scenario, the camera makes no difference.

I put this down to the sharpness limitations of printer/ink/paper and possibly my eyes. Maybe if I looked through a microscope I could see a difference.

I would say the medium format advantage is likely perceivable for people who print large (30" to 40" wide minimum at a guess) but I haven't personally tested this. I do have some faith in the printing tests of Nigel Danson

(31) How BIG can you PRINT your PHOTOS? (Fuji XT3 vs Nikon Z7 vs GFX 50R) - YouTube

(114) Do you REALLY need Full Frame? (APS -C Vs Full Frame Vs Medium Format) - YouTube

Many people these days (even medium format users) have given up on printing (or never did) and enjoy pixel peeping instead. Medium format looks good if you pixel peep and it feels like you could scroll around the image forever, it is so large. That might be part of the answer as to why people aspire to MF.

p.s.

(By the way, I was at the opticians yesterday having my eyes tested, and they went crazy, I was subjected to 3 hours of tests! The final conclusion was that my eyes were healthy but that I had developed a slight astigmatism in my right eye. I was dubious and asked them to assemble some test corrective glasses, went outside and did my own tests of distance vision. Eyesight was fine without the glasses, worse with the corrections. So no expensive glasses for me, despite what all that lab testing concluded. They did identify that I had partially blocked tear ducts which reduced the oil secretions in my tears and that the tear layer on the eye affects the optical performance of the eye. Who knew! I have treatment for that. Maybe it's a similar effect to the sensor cover glass).
 
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Hello Medium Format People,

I come from a background of 4x5 film photography. I was into that big time, selling my work in the Focus Gallery in San Francisco and the Image Gallery in Palo Alto. When we moved to another home in 2001, I sadly said goodbye to my darkroom and gave my 4x5 enlarger to the local high school. Now I'm settled with Sony A6400 and A7R4 and A7R5.

I've considered medium format many times, but as others on this format have pointed out, all of the popular digital formats have approximately the same pixel spacing. And I can add, that the spacing is close enough to exceed the resolution of most lenses.
Most lenses I have can resolve at 3.8 micron pixel pitch across a significant part of the image plane.
I don't think that last sentence is accurate. It's not accurate with GF lenses on GFX cameras. It's not accurate with Rodenstock HR Digarons on IQ4-150 cameras or on GFX cameras.
I've written that full frame image quality exceeds APSC, but we can't see it.
I would think that may be correct under a set of circumstances but not all circumstances, there are many factors involved. A sharper image needs less sharpening, so it may yield a more natural image.
At what print size?
I suspect that MF advantage over FF can't be perceived either.
At what print size?
So I'm writing here to ask if you think that MF's advantage over smaller formats can be perceived and if so, can you cite evidence.
Download the files. Make prints. Use your eyes. It sounds like numbers aren't going to make a difference to you.
That makes a lot of sense.
Do you think that an 8x10 chrome has better quality than a 6x6 chrome? Do you thing an 8x10 contact print has better quality than an 8x10 enlargement from a 6x6 neg? How about a 12x20 contact print vs a 6x6 neg?
I was looking into film recently, Most way we see images, they are second generation. So the subject is projected twice trough an optical system. So a film image essentially is affected by the combined MTF of two lenses.

Contact prints and transparencies on a lightable are more like first generation. That may play a huge role.

Best regards

Erik
 
I think the question posed by AeroPhotographer is a good one and it's worth keeping in mind. My post is going to be a tangent from it, so I hope it isn't a nuisance, and anyone is welcome to skip over this long post!

I am not yet a medium-format owner though I hope to become one. And my reasons for wishing to have nothing to do with resolution. Indeed, I think resolution has become spuriously high, and it will only get sillier if it is taken further, but that's just me.

What interests me about the Fuji medium format offering does relate to what it will do for image quality, for me, in the end... but it has nothing to do with resolution.

I like to take posed telephoto portraits. It seems to just be my thing. I like the look created for people-photography by a big long lens.

Often, it can produce a pleasing perspective to take a long-portrait shot from a low angle.

When I do this with most cameras, I run into problems. On almost every camera the viewfinder is fixed and horizontal, and so I cannot use it, either at all, or without contorting myself painfully (which then means that I do not shoot much, or for very long, before giving up), when the camera is down low in a good position for that perspective I am seeking.

The rear LCDs on my own current, not-latest-gen Sony full frame cameras do not tilt in a way that is a help when shooting in portrait orientation. In landscape orientation- sure. But not portrait. And, even if they did tilt in more axes (like the newest Sony bodies)... it'd be welcome, fine, but nevertheless, a rear LCD screen does not always work: On a bright day, the LCD, tilted, is competing with glare from a bright sky and I find it is sometimes unusable. I can force the LCD screen to overboost its brightness, in what Sony's menus call "Sunny Weather" mode, but then I can no longer judge whether the image is correctly, over-, or under-exposed because the contrast and brightness has been so forced. I find that in Sunny Weather mode, unlike in normal LCD brightness modes or when using a viewfinder, I often misjudge and apply heavy Exposure Compensation at the time of shooting that is far wide of the mark and leaves me having to push the RAW file hard in post to make up for my mistakes, which, despite best efforts, compromises the resulting image.

Some Fuji GFX cameras, almost uniquely, have both a highly flexible tilting LCD and a good, adjustable, tilting viewfinder. Problem solved.

Further... I like to shoot with long lenses, as mentioned. Such as the Canon 200mm f/1.8 and 400mm f/2.8. I like the character and look of these lenses and there aren't many alternatives or substitutes to what they create. With such lenses, of course, framing is often tight(!). But they have wide image circles, which can illuminate more than a full frame sensor and can work, adapted, on a GFX sensor. Use of these lenses with a GFX camera would change their working distances just a tad, in just the ways I would find very helpful. I've noticed that I have a hard-coded tendency to be almost, but not quite, far enough from my subject when I first judge my position and distance. I find the image is framed just slightly too tight at my first guess, time and again. So I have to get up and move position again. I seem to keep doing this, even as I keep it in mind. Which adds to the faff and delay in getting the portrait shot - which, potentially, affects what image, or how many images, I end up getting, depending on the situation and the patience of my photographic subject. So the tiny dab of extra frame-space added by the GFX framing on these lenses would fit me like a glove.

Even if I do not find myself slightly too close to the subject on the long axis... especially the short axis of the image, in portrait orientation, is often too tight. I really covet the 4:3 aspect ratio of the Fuji GFX system, as on 3:2 I find the framing very unforgivingly narrow, and the edges of the frame claustrophobic for portraits even when no errors are made at the time of shooting.

Putting it all together: I often can't quite see what I'm shooting in daylight, my framing is ever so slightly too tight anyway, and as I'm half-blind with VF and LCD limitations some of my shots get thrown away because I haven't realised I'm a tiny but decisive fraction aimed too far left or right and the narrow 3:2 ratio leaves no room for error or an unbalanced framing (you can't crop it back to balance). I take longer to get the shot, I'm more clumsy, hesitant and underconfident doing it, fewer of them work, some are badly over- or under-exposed.

The net result is that a GFX camera would give me a more correctly-exposed image, a better-framed image, a lower-stress and lower-pain shooting experience with less dithering and delay in framing up the shot. All of that will, I believe, improve my shooting in a "perceptible" way - the contents of the resulting image will be better, for all these gains. None of it is resolution. I want a GFX! :) I just have to keep saving for one that has decent people-autofocus (to not lose all my other gains in time and convenience by a different avenue) which, unfortunately, won't be cheap.

I really do feel that resolution, as currently offered, is already spuriously high. People often point out that the original GFX50S sensor is no longer manufactured, and fine, good riddance - it was an odd sensor... with no PDAF, with its overly-squinty, moire-inducing microlenses, its old-fashioned lack of BSI light-gathering capability, and its slow readout (all of which I could forgive, perhaps, except autofocus, and additional moire induced on people's outfits)

The sensor used in the GFX100 models is essentially just a larger version of what Sony puts in its A7Riv and A7RV. Same pixel pitch, just bigger. Why not do the same, with the sensor Sony puts in the A7iv? (non-R). With that sensor's pixel pitch, you'd have a modern, good 55 megapixel BSI GFX sensor with all the resolution, capability and flexibility I could want.

I appreciate that my needs are very niche and that the above suggestion will never happen. High resolution is the easy quotable selling-point of the GFX system that they are unlikely to compromise on. I'll end up having to buy a GFX-one-squillion model, eventually, when I've saved up enough. I'm just emphasising - I don't need the resolution, but I do seek a perceptible image quality result difference from Fuji GFX. I hope this post didn't derail/detract too badly from the original poster's question, but I feel that maybe the quality-of-life upgrades, and what they do for the final image, might be worth mentioning with my one niche example.
 
As someone that prizes practical usage over scientific theory, after all we are making images not dissertations, the route to YOUR answer perhaps lies in a service that Fujifilm offer in the UK. I presume it is internationally practiced, and available through Fujifilm in the USA. We are able through " The Fujifilm House of Photography " in London , to loan equipment for a couple of days free usage. We can either collect from the store in London , or they courier it FOC to your door. Equipment arrives the day before the loan and is collected the day after. I did this over Xmas and because of "closed" days managed over a weeks free loan !

Development can be done either with a recent copy of Capture One / Photoshop or if you are not as yet GFX Raw ready , you can download a processing software from Fuji for free. This way you will have days worth of files on your computer to play with and come to your own decisions.

Be prepared that DOF is notably slim compared to general 35mm usage , but 500 iso is lovely. If you want movements then Rob's idea of a tilt/shift adaptor is worth looking at as are Hartblei adaptors.

I came from a 50mp Canon to GFX and I am happy to say that there is a beauty to the files, the pixel count , and the ability to freely shoot and crop without fear of only 24 x 36. It is a decision to make with your eyes more than your slide rule.
 

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