Is the GFX100RF's incredible sensor wasted on mediocre glass?

I would have preferred a slightly less compact, but optically better, and faster lens.
According to Fuji, it wouldn't have been slightly less compact, but substantially less. And it was all about the lens size, not the body size.
Substantially can mean different things though. Maybe they think 1cm is substantial. Or the 3mm that they said implementing ibis would have added. We won’t know, but my reference point are the longer and faster lenses of the Leica Q. I would have preferred something like that, or at least a 2.8 lens.
I definitely wouldn't buy the 100RF if the lens was big, which is inevitable with a 2.8 aperture. Why would I need such a camera if its weight/size would be the same as a 100s II with lens or an X2D+38v?
It wouldn’t have to be that big. The Hasselblad 28p is tiny, and fully covers the X2D ibis. Yes, it’s only an f4 lens, but a bit wider. I think size wise it can be a good measuring stick with its 43mm in length (that would also vanish into the body for a good portion on a fixed lens). A fixed 35mm could be at least as short, and tiny, while still covering ibis. Or you have no ibis, and then make the lens a bit faster.

I am hearing this doesn’t work, that doesn’t work etc. But I don’t think so. Hasselblad shows it works. But maybe not for 5000,-. Ok, that’s likely, but then just be honest and say so (not you, Fuji), instead of gaslighting people.
 
Substantially can mean different things though. Maybe they think 1cm is substantial. Or the 3mm that they said implementing ibis would have added.
You didn't apparently see everything they said. They said IBIS would have added 3mm to the body, which was acceptable to them.

It was the lens that would have gotten substantially bigger in order to allow the lens to cover the full sensor to account for the IBIS movements. It was this increased size that convinced their designers/engineers that IBIS was "a bridge too far" for this camera. They had almost certainly made the same calculation about making the lens faster.

There was a video from Fuji about this problem. They said clearly that they prioritized the size in order to have a unique product.
We won’t know, but my reference point are the longer and faster lenses of the Leica Q. I would have preferred something like that, or at least a 2.8 lens.
I’ve been over this with someone else allready. And yes, I know that obviously they said ibis would add 3mm to the body. Where else would I have gotten that number.

The argument about ibis and the lens, I’m not sure I fully buy this. Looking at the tiny Hasselblad p lenses, those fully cover the extraordinary ibis of the X2D without any problems. The 28p is just 43mm long, of which some vanishes into the body in a fixed lens camera. And weighs only 245g.
I wonder how much additional coverage IBIS requires. Assuming my math is correct, 1% more coverage on the diagonal would add ~ +- 70 pixels of coverage. This gives a lens volume delta of ~ (1.01)^3 - 1 = 3%.

Sometimes ‘engineering’ statements come from marketing or other departments.
Yes exactly my point. When in question, it’s almost allways the bean counters in finance or accounting, or it is marketing. Sadly engineers almost never call the shots these days, they just make “suggestions”. It’s one of the reasons for the decline of german industry imo, but that’s off topic here.

Technically, you could have had a faster lens, ibis, etc. But that would have meant either a higher price point, or less profit. That’s what dictated those decisions, not physical limits.
 
When in question, it’s almost allways the bean counters in finance or accounting, or it is marketing. Sadly engineers almost never call the shots these days, they just make “suggestions”.
With reference to bean counters it's quite probable they said ois on lens for mk2 100Rf, perhaps who knows over ruling engineers.

X1Dmk2 could readily had a tilt screen, instead they put it aside for X2D. Similarly Q2 could readily had tilt screen, instead they put it aside for Q3.

One thing about 100Rf comfortable to hold for me. Whereas 100mk2 100Smk2 uncomfortable for me. Perhaps Fuji could take 100Rf body adding ibis and the 3mm extra girth releasing it as milc 100R.

--
Photography after all is interplay of light alongside perspective.
 
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Substantially can mean different things though. Maybe they think 1cm is substantial. Or the 3mm that they said implementing ibis would have added.
You didn't apparently see everything they said. They said IBIS would have added 3mm to the body, which was acceptable to them.

It was the lens that would have gotten substantially bigger in order to allow the lens to cover the full sensor to account for the IBIS movements. It was this increased size that convinced their designers/engineers that IBIS was "a bridge too far" for this camera. They had almost certainly made the same calculation about making the lens faster.

There was a video from Fuji about this problem. They said clearly that they prioritized the size in order to have a unique product.
We won’t know, but my reference point are the longer and faster lenses of the Leica Q. I would have preferred something like that, or at least a 2.8 lens.
I’ve been over this with someone else allready. And yes, I know that obviously they said ibis would add 3mm to the body. Where else would I have gotten that number.

The argument about ibis and the lens, I’m not sure I fully buy this. Looking at the tiny Hasselblad p lenses, those fully cover the extraordinary ibis of the X2D without any problems. The 28p is just 43mm long, of which some vanishes into the body in a fixed lens camera. And weighs only 245g.
I wonder how much additional coverage IBIS requires. Assuming my math is correct, 1% more coverage on the diagonal would add ~ +- 70 pixels of coverage. This gives a lens volume delta of ~ (1.01)^3 - 1 = 3%.

Sometimes ‘engineering’ statements come from marketing or other departments.
Also, remember the dark secret of IBIS/OIS is the unpredictability that occurs when shooting with wide-angle lenses. While the center may be reliably sharp at certain shutter speeds, the corners may occasionally become blurry.

One could say that there are fewer surprises when shooting wide without stabilization :). Still, I use OIS on my Qs.
 
I have to say, as far as special rendering is concerned, the Q2M is a model. Insane image quality. Have not tried the Q3 43 but I've heard it on good authority that the APO lens is next level.
Serious question here.... what do you mean when you say "special rendering"?
The Leica photos has a wow factor. Meaning they stand out and looks great.

The RF photos I've seen so far looks very ordinary like they could have been taken with any camera.
IMO I've not seen the wow factor in the Leica Q3 or the previous Q2 I owned. However, I definitely did experience the WOW factor the first time I encountered the 100mp sensor. But that is one person's opinion.
Somebody asked what I consider "special" rendering. People use a lot of words -- "character" "micro-contrast" "painterly" - but I often doubt they know what they're talking about. I know it when I see it.

The lens/sensor combo of the Q3 does this. The Q2M even moreso. Funny enough, my M9 Monochrom is among my favourite of the bunch -- but that's with M glass slapped in front of it.

I've looked at Jonas Rask's work with the RF100. He's an incredibly gifted photographer, but there is nothing standout about his recent slate of images. They look nearly identical to his output on crop-sensor Fujis. That is a red flag.

Some small jpegs of recent images I took with a Q3 in Utah.



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I have to say, as far as special rendering is concerned, the Q2M is a model. Insane image quality. Have not tried the Q3 43 but I've heard it on good authority that the APO lens is next level.
Serious question here.... what do you mean when you say "special rendering"?
The Leica photos has a wow factor. Meaning they stand out and looks great.

The RF photos I've seen so far looks very ordinary like they could have been taken with any camera.
IMO I've not seen the wow factor in the Leica Q3 or the previous Q2 I owned. However, I definitely did experience the WOW factor the first time I encountered the 100mp sensor. But that is one person's opinion.
My experience as well! The Q series lens sharp and that’s it!
 
Sigma Merrill DP1 DP2 DP3 released 2012 have a rendering perhaps unique in digital compact with built in lens, when utilised within their capabilities.

My choice for my photography would be a Sigma Merrill compact before Leica Q Q2 Q2M Q3. Also probably before 100Rf.
I wouldn't. And I haven't completely abandoned Foveon. I'm having a lens delivered for my SD15 tomorrow...
If 100Rf is marmite, then Merrills are probably even more marmite lol. At least you still have a Foveon camera.
3 actually, although two are retired :-)
 
Somebody asked what I consider "special" rendering. People use a lot of words -- "character" "micro-contrast" "painterly" - but I often doubt they know what they're talking about. I know it when I see it.
Then explain what you mean in detail, with examples. Otherwise, you're the only person who knows what you're talking about.
 
Somebody asked what I consider "special" rendering. People use a lot of words -- "character" "micro-contrast" "painterly" - but I often doubt they know what they're talking about. I know it when I see it.
Then explain what you mean in detail, with examples. Otherwise, you're the only person who knows what you're talking about.
I can give an example that I think describes the lens of the RF pretty well.

The images we took, and a lot of those I’ve seen online, all looked pretty flat, despite good, golden evening light in our case. The lens is missing that separation, that makes for example the GF55/1.7 special, even when stopped down a bit.

But it also lacks it, in comparison to the 100RF biggest rival, the Q3, and its 28/1.7 lens.

That would be fine, if it was a clinically sharp lens instead, like a 35/1.4GM. But it’s not that either. Neither is it a very fast lens. It’s just a mediocre lens throughout, which imo drags down the brilliant sensor.
 
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Those who don't care are loving it as a handheld FF, APSC, m43 zoom, and that's great for them. Those who do care might think about showing it some respect, plunking it onto a tripod, and letting stretch its wings and fly.
Why not all the above? It is a bit anthropomorphic to ascribe the feeling of respect or disrespect to a camera. It’s a camera and what seems a very versatile one, for Pete’s sake.
I did mean, all of the above. Those Jonas Rask crop photos look like APSC and m43 to me, but lovely APSC and m43, it is one totally legit way to enjoy the camera and people have every right to enjoy the camera that way.

But the launch point here was complaints about the lens, that supposedly it's mediocre. I'm just saying, people are using it cropped, and also walking around with it, but then complaining about the lens. That's not the most likely way to get the Wow factor out of this lens, same with any non-IBIS medium or large format creature. The Wow factor will be the full sensor, beckoned and beguiled onto a nice secure perch where it can burst into song. I've seen some spectacular images um, flit by, here and there from this camera, and they were indeed full 28mm equivalent, in good light, tripod.

As for anthropomorphism, that is ascribing human characteristics to something, which is simply too limiting when one is taking the Shinto view, the anima mundi view. The Miyazaki view, perhaps one might venture. I had a teacher who used to say, "The instrument will teach you how it wants to be played." I wouldn't presume to start a Sunday Salon thread on the topic, but . . can this not be so of cameras?
 
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Sigma Merrill DP1 DP2 DP3 released 2012 have a rendering perhaps unique in digital compact with built in lens, when utilised within their capabilities.

My choice for my photography would be a Sigma Merrill compact before Leica Q Q2 Q2M Q3. Also probably before 100Rf.
I wouldn't. And I haven't completely abandoned Foveon. I'm having a lens delivered for my SD15 tomorrow...
If 100Rf is marmite, then Merrills are probably even more marmite lol. At least you still have a Foveon camera.
3 actually, although two are retired :-)
Put out to pasture that's how I feel sometimes 😭 🤣

--
Photography after all is interplay of light alongside perspective.
 
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Somebody asked what I consider "special" rendering. People use a lot of words -- "character" "micro-contrast" "painterly" - but I often doubt they know what they're talking about. I know it when I see it.
Then explain what you mean in detail, with examples. Otherwise, you're the only person who knows what you're talking about.
I can give an example that I think describes the lens of the RF pretty well.

The images we took, and a lot of those I’ve seen online, all looked pretty flat,
Define "flat". Do you find the lens lacking contrast? That's easily fixed in post unless it's really bad. If it's not that, please explain what you mean in detail.
despite good, golden evening light in our case. The lens is missing that separation,
Define "separation", are you saying the the DOF drop off in sharpness is anomalous?
that makes for example the GF55/1.7 special, even when stopped down a bit.

But it also lacks it, in comparison to the 100RF biggest rival, the Q3, and its 28/1.7 lens.

That would be fine, if it was a clinically sharp lens instead, like a 35/1.4GM. But it’s not that either. Neither is it a very fast lens. It’s just a mediocre lens throughout, which imo drags down the brilliant sensor.
The sensor is no more and no less brilliant than the 100 MP 33x44mm sensors we've been using for years.
 
As for anthropomorphism, that is ascribing human characteristics to something, which is simply too limiting when one is taking the Shinto view, the anima mundi view. The Miyazaki view, perhaps one might venture. I had a teacher who used to say, "The instrument will teach you how it wants to be played." I wouldn't presume to start a Sunday Salon thread on the topic, but . . can this not be so of cameras?
I've always said that, if you pay close attention to your work, it will teach you what you need to do next. But that's different than paying attention to your camera.
 
As for anthropomorphism, that is ascribing human characteristics to something, which is simply too limiting when one is taking the Shinto view, the anima mundi view. The Miyazaki view, perhaps one might venture. I had a teacher who used to say, "The instrument will teach you how it wants to be played." I wouldn't presume to start a Sunday Salon thread on the topic, but . . can this not be so of cameras?
I've always said that, if you pay close attention to your work, it will teach you what you need to do next. But that's different than paying attention to your camera.
There have never been times when you've sensed spirit in your guitar(s)?

What would Calvino's Qfwfq say to this state of affairs?
 
I've run through all the reading/YouTube promo videos. Kudos to Fuji for building a relatively small medium format P&S. I don't care about IBIS or F4. The real nagging doubt in my head is: the lens is just mediocre. Sure you can zoom in, but the rendering is meh. It may as well be APSC because I can hardly tell the difference. This is the real bottleneck on what is otherwise a fantastic system.

Am I wrong?
My opinion, after reading 4 pages of comments, the only term that I could see someone take issue with from the original post is "mediocre". Personally, if true, I'm ok with that given what I've seen up until now and my purposes and wants from the camera.

I had the Q2 and enjoyed it so much as a travel cam, that I traded it for a M11 with 28 and 50 summicrons. I tried to live with the optical viewfinder on the M11 but eventually I felt I had to add the visoflex to aid with focus and give me live view. It was also a compromise from the Q2, to give up stabilization and to have to use a bit higher ss to avoid shake. I contemplated a Q3 but after using the GFX 100 for a bit, I began to appreciate having one lens, the 45, and cropping in on a large sensor that wasn't available on a compact body, until now.

For a smallish carry around, quality product, with a highly cropable sensor, the RF makes sense to me. 80% of my snaps are decent light, from 24-70 mm (loved that focal length on my working cameras) and my street, vacation and memory pics are seldom printed large. The high iso tolerance helps swallow the f4 limitation as well.

I'd have bought a Q4 with the same specs as the RF but it isn't available, would likely cost too much for me and it would still be a compromise in some area.
 
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I’ve been over this with someone else allready. And yes, I know that obviously they said ibis would add 3mm to the body. Where else would I have gotten that number.

The argument about ibis and the lens, I’m not sure I fully buy this. Looking at the tiny Hasselblad p lenses, those fully cover the extraordinary ibis of the X2D without any problems. The 28p is just 43mm long, of which some vanishes into the body in a fixed lens camera. And weighs only 245g. But it costs almost 2000,- Euro.

I guess that things like leaving out ibis, ois, are just as much of a cost cutting factor in the 100RF as anything else.
The Hasselblad 38mm f/2.5, which should be the lens to compare the 100RF lens with, is quite a bit larger than the 28P; although still quite compact for a MF lens. It works very well.
 
Somebody asked what I consider "special" rendering. People use a lot of words -- "character" "micro-contrast" "painterly" - but I often doubt they know what they're talking about. I know it when I see it.
Then explain what you mean in detail, with examples. Otherwise, you're the only person who knows what you're talking about.
I can give an example that I think describes the lens of the RF pretty well.

The images we took, and a lot of those I’ve seen online, all looked pretty flat,
Define "flat". Do you find the lens lacking contrast? That's easily fixed in post unless it's really bad. If it's not that, please explain what you mean in detail.
despite good, golden evening light in our case. The lens is missing that separation,
Define "separation", are you saying the the DOF drop off in sharpness is anomalous?
that makes for example the GF55/1.7 special, even when stopped down a bit.

But it also lacks it, in comparison to the 100RF biggest rival, the Q3, and its 28/1.7 lens.

That would be fine, if it was a clinically sharp lens instead, like a 35/1.4GM. But it’s not that either. Neither is it a very fast lens. It’s just a mediocre lens throughout, which imo drags down the brilliant sensor.
The sensor is no more and no less brilliant than the 100 MP 33x44mm sensors we've been using for years.
 
The Hasselblad 38mm f/2.5, which should be the lens to compare the 100RF lens with, is quite a bit larger than the 28P; although still quite compact for a MF lens. It works very well.
If you don't mind the light falloff off-axis.
 
Somebody asked what I consider "special" rendering. People use a lot of words -- "character" "micro-contrast" "painterly" - but I often doubt they know what they're talking about. I know it when I see it.
Then explain what you mean in detail, with examples. Otherwise, you're the only person who knows what you're talking about.
I can give an example that I think describes the lens of the RF pretty well.

The images we took, and a lot of those I’ve seen online, all looked pretty flat,
Define "flat". Do you find the lens lacking contrast? That's easily fixed in post unless it's really bad. If it's not that, please explain what you mean in detail.
despite good, golden evening light in our case. The lens is missing that separation,
Define "separation", are you saying the the DOF drop off in sharpness is anomalous?
that makes for example the GF55/1.7 special, even when stopped down a bit.

But it also lacks it, in comparison to the 100RF biggest rival, the Q3, and its 28/1.7 lens.

That would be fine, if it was a clinically sharp lens instead, like a 35/1.4GM. But it’s not that either. Neither is it a very fast lens. It’s just a mediocre lens throughout, which imo drags down the brilliant sensor.
The sensor is no more and no less brilliant than the 100 MP 33x44mm sensors we've been using for years.
It’s a bit strange that people who praise the lens as “brilliant” etc can just do so, without anyone questioning them. But those who criticize it, need to “define” or “prove” everything they say.
You have identified faults in the lens. I'm trying to understand what you mean.
While both conclusions are generally subjective.

A flat lens for me is one that doesn’t produce a lot of separation between the subject or subjects and the background.
Are you talking about the way the through-focus aberrations behave? Or are you talking about the DOF falloff? Or maybe you're talking about spherical aberration. I can't tell which from what you're saying.
This is mostly a function of light and lighting, why I pointed out we had good light. If the images are still flat, it can be because the lens lacks micro contrast for example. Not sure if that’s “the” reason why we felt the images are flat.

Separation is something that I like about middle format. Being able to get a full body portrait, even stopped down a bit, but still getting great background separation. That’s something the 100RF didn’t produce in a way I am used to from other GF lenses.
 
As for anthropomorphism, that is ascribing human characteristics to something, which is simply too limiting when one is taking the Shinto view, the anima mundi view. The Miyazaki view, perhaps one might venture. I had a teacher who used to say, "The instrument will teach you how it wants to be played." I wouldn't presume to start a Sunday Salon thread on the topic, but . . can this not be so of cameras?
I've always said that, if you pay close attention to your work, it will teach you what you need to do next. But that's different than paying attention to your camera.
There have never been times when you've sensed spirit in your guitar(s)?
It's more like it doesn't sound as good when played that way; it sounds better when played this way. But my relationship with my guitars is more tactile than my relationship with my cameras, or my hammers, or my screwdrivers.
What would Calvino's Qfwfq say to this state of affairs?
 

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