Subjectivity in engineering design

JimKasson

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As is often the case, the impetus for me to take keyboard in hand to click out this post is an exchange with a fellow photographer over the 'net. In this case, the conversation went something like this:
Member said:
Someone else: "I am not a fan of MTF graphs."

Poster: "I look at real-world shots from objective reviewers mainly. Also, before purchasing, I would take a few test-shots myself if possible and process and view at home. There is so much that is not shown in an MTF graph."

Me: "Sounds like the answer is 'none of them.'"

Poster: "There are no objective 'metrics' for photographic quality as far as I know."

Me: "If that's true, what is a lens designer trying to optimize?"

Poster: "The subjective aspects of the output that he likes (or is told to optimize by his company). "
I am not a lens designer. But I don't think it works that way, based on my long career as a design engineer. Engineers don't like subjective boundary conditions. It makes it hard to optimize. If there are subjective elements to the design criteria, engineers like to look for ways to make them objective.

Here's an example. Before electric typewriters, the feel of a typewriter keyboard was determined by the mechanical design of the moving parts of the machine. When electric typewriters came along, the engineers found that, within reason, they could make the feel of the keyboard whatever they wanted it to be. The obvious question was, "What should it feel like?" The folks at IBM made a bunch of keyboards with differing characteristics, rounded up a group of professional typists, and conducted tests to find out what they liked best in terms of keyboard feel. They varied the stroke length, the spring tension, the actuation point, the force vs key depression curves, and finally came up with a set of specifications for they keyboard that most users like the best. Those specs were objective: quantitative, measurable, repeatable. The engineers' task was to devise keyboards with the feel defined by the specs that were inexpensive, durable, and manufacturable. The engineers did their jobs. The resulting keyboards became the standard of the industry. Professional typists loved them.

Over time, the users of keyboards broadened to include more and more people who were not professional typists. Now just about everyone uses keyboards, and they have different requirements. In addition, keyboards are often used in cost-conscious and space applications where the original IBM feel is just too expensive and too big. Enter cheap spongy switches with short travel. That was a decent solution for the masses -- although I personally hate those kinds of keyboards. But many users wanted longer travel keyboards with various kinds of feel, and the industry responded with a wide variety of mechanical and magnetic switches, all with different feel. Each of those switches has been specified in objective terms. I happen to be a fan of the original IBM keyboard feel, but now my favorite keyboard is a Hall Effect device made by Keychron. It has adjustable actuation points and even is configurable to activate different functions at different depression depths.

To the uninformed user, the only way to find out if you like a keyboard or not is to try it. That's not a very efficient way to make a purchasing decision. Users who are a bit more savvy learn the characteristics of keyboards that they like, and purchase boards that are objectively similar to the ones they like. The engineers designing all those keyboards presumably design the feel to the numbers. I doubt if a product manager tells an engineer to just go off and design a keyboard that feels good to him.

I expect that it's the same with lens design. The lens designer has a double armload of objective parameters: cost, size, weight, flare, spherical aberration, astigmatism, coma, LoCA, LaCA, spectral response, light falloff, distortion, far-OOF point spread functions, radial and tangential MTF, optical passband, transitions from in to out of focus, and many more. All those parameters are measurable and can be simulated, so that the lens designer can see the result of her design decisions before actually constructing the lens and hanging it on a camera.

But it's not just cut and dried. In general all the parameters are affected by the lens design, and it's not possible to obtain a perfect design. Enter the world of tradeoffs. The designer, possibly in conjunction with the product manager, must assign weights to all of the parameters to obtain a scalar value to be maximized or minimized. The picking of those weights is subjective.

But that doesn't mean that prospective users of a lens can't gain a lot of valuable information about whether that lens will suit their needs from looking at objective metrics. It's more complicated than picking a keyboard, there's a lot more data to be sifted through, and much of that data is not published by many of the lens vendors, but, just like a keyboard, there are objective metrics that can in the hands of a sophisticated consumer, contribute mightily to a well-informed decision.

Here is an opportunity for me to toot my own horn a bit. When I test lenses, I provide a wealth of detail about many metrics that I consider important. I think that examining my lens tests can go a long way to informing people about whether or not a particular lens is for them. I have been backing down somewhat on the quantitative testing, because it's difficult and I think that much of it serves to confuse some people, but I do try to provide information about the lens parameters that I consider important.

Wine legs. Rodenstock 105mm f/5.6 HR Digaron Macro on GFX 100 II. This lens is well characterized by Rodenstock.

Wine legs. Rodenstock 105mm f/5.6 HR Digaron Macro on GFX 100 II. This lens is well characterized by Rodenstock.



--
 
Jim,

Interesting that the image you choose to accompany this post is that of wine (well, wine legs).

The tasting of which is . . . As subjective as it gets?

Nice image.

--
Rich
"That's like, just your opinion, man." ;-)
 
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Yes and Nikon is well known for doing just that.

There are quite a few Nikon examples where the goal is a specific metric.

Nikon has even reported that users have missed the point of a lens, when the user says it can't do x. Nikon has responded to say its designed for no coma, not x.
 
This is great Jim. Thanks for sharing this perspective.

In general people don't seem to understand that trade offs must be made. People complain that the lens on the new 100 RF is only f/4, but they like the camera because of the small lens and don't realize that a faster lens would be bigger. They want their camera to be sturdier and have more weather sealing, but they also want it lighter and cheaper.

Something else I've noticed is the effect that the astonishing amount of information that is available to everyone now has had on people. I remember going to my favourite bike jock store as a young fellow and asking for Aztec Aero brake pads for my bike. The owner sighed and asked me, "Have you been reading bike magazines again?" The cold hard reality was neither my bike nor my skills would have benefited from better brake pads.

It's orders of magnitude worse today. People fight ferociously over things they don't understand. Case in point is a conversation that unfolded yesterday in another forum where someone was dying on the 16-bit hill, insisting that despite all the evidence you presented in your evaluation of 14- versus 16-bit files from GFX cameras, he could see a difference and 16-bit was better.
 
Hi,

Well, this engineer will measure everything. And, if there isn't already a way to perform a measurement, I will invent one. Half my patent portfolio is from exactly that.

And that's what I've been doing lately. Cellular 6G prototype field testing. Using highly modified 5G equipment, becasue 6G stuff didn't exist.

As far as PC keyboards go, IBM Model 13 all the way. ;)

Stan
 
This sounds like a conversation between "the business" and the engineers/researchers. Unfortunately many decisions are being made in a subjective manner, partially due to ignorance about deep engineering concepts and partially because not always all data is avalballe to measure things properly, especially in finance.
 
Hi,

Well, this engineer will measure everything. And, if there isn't already a way to perform a measurement, I will invent one. Half my patent portfolio is from exactly that.

And that's what I've been doing lately. Cellular 6G prototype field testing. Using highly modified 5G equipment, becasue 6G stuff didn't exist.

As far as PC keyboards go, IBM Model 13 all the way. ;)
I may be biased by my experience. While I really like the Lexington keyboards, we used -- in those days, God-awful expensive -- Hall Effect key switches for the attendant's consoles for the original Rolm CBX, and to me they felt great.
 
As is often the case, the impetus for me to take keyboard in hand to click out this post is an exchange with a fellow photographer over the 'net. In this case, the conversation went something like this:
Someone else: "I am not a fan of MTF graphs."

Poster: "I look at real-world shots from objective reviewers mainly. Also, before purchasing, I would take a few test-shots myself if possible and process and view at home. There is so much that is not shown in an MTF graph."

Me: "Sounds like the answer is 'none of them.'"

Poster: "There are no objective 'metrics' for photographic quality as far as I know."

Me: "If that's true, what is a lens designer trying to optimize?"

Poster: "The subjective aspects of the output that he likes (or is told to optimize by his company). "
I am not a lens designer. But I don't think it works that way, based on my long career as a design engineer. Engineers don't like subjective boundary conditions. It makes it hard to optimize. If there are subjective elements to the design criteria, engineers like to look for ways to make them objective.
The world is full it non-engineers / non-scientists spouting opinions on technical topics about which they have no clue, as if those opinions are objective fact. Each of us, whatever our qualifications (or lack thereof), is welcome to have opinions on to what extent we find lenses (or whatever) subjectively pleasing. But as soon as you want to claim one lens is objectively / factually better than another, you better have one or more specific metrics in mind and at least a strong inkling toward a scientific testing protocol. Alas, often that's woefully lacking.

Sometimes this is frustratingly a behavior of people who may be excellent photographers, and may have opinions, informed by great experience, that they can't even really articulate much less scientifically explain. And sometimes outrageous, nonsensical claims are made in favor of lenses that truly are excellent lenses.

But often those you encounter are praising the emperor's new clothes, and would be badly embarrassed by a well-conducted double-blind test.
 
Hi,

When I joined IBM it was in data comm. And the current Big Job was to modify the new Personal Computer to also be a 3270 terminal. So, first an adapter card and some control code. Then it was make a dedicated special model, the 3270 PC.

After that, it was redo it all into dedicated lower cost terminals using PC bits. Those were the 3178 (mono) and 3179 (color). Additionally, Kingston (NY) was home to the flat screen plasma panel display and so the 3290

And what did all of these products use for keyboards? Lexington (KY) ones. Before IBM I used some other keyboards such as teletype and OSI. The Lexington ones were a revelation.

So I never was exposed to the Rolm equipment to have used their keyboards. Just the IBM ones. And I still use two daily. The later ones with the Trackpoint. Although there are several others on the shelves here. Including the one with my original PC I used prototyping the first of the 3270 adapter cards.

Stan
 

Schneider-Kreuznach at f/2.5

This Schneider-Kreuznach lens is one of my favourite lenses I ever had. It's attached to a measly Samsung Ex1 compact 1/1.7" sensor. I intend to pick up another Ex1 as they were objective precise in designing engineering this Schneider-Kreuznach lens : so that it would deliver on every Ex1 camera manufactured. There might be slight copy variations still it should be close enough.

Pearls from my Ex1 2011.

--
Photography after all is interplay of light alongside perspective.
 
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Hi,

Well, this engineer will measure everything. And, if there isn't already a way to perform a measurement, I will invent one. Half my patent portfolio is from exactly that.

And that's what I've been doing lately. Cellular 6G prototype field testing. Using highly modified 5G equipment, becasue 6G stuff didn't exist.

As far as PC keyboards go, IBM Model 13 all the way. ;)

Stan
I searched long and hard for my favorite keyboard. Ended up with the Sun Microsystems keyboard (the version with the Caps Lock to the left of the letter A). I bought several of them and am still going strong almost 20 years later. One died 6 months ago and I just brought out the backup.
 
The idea that a lens designer today would favor the subjective over objective data seems absurd to me. There are things that can be measured---so definitely measure those things!

There are things that can't be measured (yet), and it may be that those things come into play in a design. Also, I think there may be decisions about aspects of a lens where for a variety of reasons one thing gets more weight than another. Lens design seems regularly to be about effective compromises. But I don't see those as primarily "subjective" decisions, but a conscious effort at balancing aspects through a primarily objective process.

That said, I could see a niche designer favoring a quality or style in the lens design...but again the way you get to those decisions is through an objective process. One which doesn't occur in a vacuum, btw, and undoubtedly has layers of management input over top of it.
 
The idea that a lens designer today would favor the subjective over objective data seems absurd to me. There are things that can be measured---so definitely measure those things!

There are things that can't be measured (yet), and it may be that those things come into play in a design. Also, I think there may be decisions about aspects of a lens where for a variety of reasons one thing gets more weight than another. Lens design seems regularly to be about effective compromises. But I don't see those as primarily "subjective" decisions, but a conscious effort at balancing aspects through a primarily objective process.

That said, I could see a niche designer favoring a quality or style in the lens design...but again the way you get to those decisions is through an objective process. One which doesn't occur in a vacuum, btw, and undoubtedly has layers of management input over top of it.
 
The idea that a lens designer today would favor the subjective over objective data seems absurd to me. There are things that can be measured---so definitely measure those things!

There are things that can't be measured (yet), and it may be that those things come into play in a design. Also, I think there may be decisions about aspects of a lens where for a variety of reasons one thing gets more weight than another. Lens design seems regularly to be about effective compromises. But I don't see those as primarily "subjective" decisions, but a conscious effort at balancing aspects through a primarily objective process.

That said, I could see a niche designer favoring a quality or style in the lens design...but again the way you get to those decisions is through an objective process. One which doesn't occur in a vacuum, btw, and undoubtedly has layers of management input over top of it.
I think at the end the design is subjective because of the subjective weights one places on the myriad of lens attributes. Even if those weights are objectively measured, by say asking a group of people; the (equal?) weight assigned to each person, or the way the sample was formed to begin with, is subjective. I fail to see an end to this train of thought but please prove me wrong. By the way, I wasn't that person, lol.
I made the point in the OP about the weights used in turning vectors into scalars. But looking at the vectors allows people to assign their own weights.
 
The idea that a lens designer today would favor the subjective over objective data seems absurd to me. There are things that can be measured---so definitely measure those things!

There are things that can't be measured (yet), and it may be that those things come into play in a design. Also, I think there may be decisions about aspects of a lens where for a variety of reasons one thing gets more weight than another. Lens design seems regularly to be about effective compromises. But I don't see those as primarily "subjective" decisions, but a conscious effort at balancing aspects through a primarily objective process.

That said, I could see a niche designer favoring a quality or style in the lens design...but again the way you get to those decisions is through an objective process. One which doesn't occur in a vacuum, btw, and undoubtedly has layers of management input over top of it.
I think at the end the design is subjective because of the subjective weights one places on the myriad of lens attributes. Even if those weights are objectively measured, by say asking a group of people; the (equal?) weight assigned to each person, or the way the sample was formed to begin with, is subjective. I fail to see an end to this train of thought but please prove me wrong. By the way, I wasn't that person, lol.
I made the point in the OP about the weights used in turning vectors into scalars. But looking at the vectors allows people to assign their own weights.
Absolutely, I was just augmenting the above reply. Also, even the data based on which measurements are taken are subjective to some extent. Like, what conditions do you choose to measure flare. Those may be very well defined and perfectly measured but they can't fully or perfectly summarize or represent real world conditions, no matter how much, objective, effort is placed on behalf of the engineer.

--
Apollon
http://www.flickr.com/photos/apollonas/
 
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Hi,

I took a little time and pawed thru my keyboard collection. Several IBM Model M ones of various styles. A couple IBM Model F ones (used on System/36 terminals). An errant old Beam Spring one off a 3278 or 79 (I don't recall if those had a Model Letter). Even some Apple Mac ones.

No Rolm ones. Or any others I can ID as a Hall Effect.

And you have me wanting to try one. All these old things on the Shelves of Obsolete Electronics and it looks like I have to hit up eBay....

Stan

--
Amateur Photographer
Professional Electronics Development Engineer
 
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Hi,

I took a little time and pawed thru my keyboard collection. Several IBM Model M ones of various styles. A couple IBM Model F ones (used on System/36 terminals). An errant old Beam Spring one off a 3278 or 79 (I don't recall if those had a Model Letter). Even some Apple Mac ones.

No Rolm ones.
The Rolm Hall Effect switches were used on the attendant's console. It was good to have a switch with no mechanical contacts in a situation where it was going to be banged on rapidly day after day for years. I'm not aware of any keyswitch failures there, but I'm sure there were some.
Or any others I can ID as a Hall Effect.

And you have me wanting to try one. All these old things on the Shelves of Obsolete Electronics and it looks like I have to hit up eBay....
Here's the one that I got:

 
Hi,

Thanks. I'll give one a try. I think I'd like a longer travel minus the mechanical noise. I'm not a fan of all these short throw rubber dome keyboards even though I use lots of them.

Where I can really use one is on the ham shack computer. I use that most of all. Even when writing reports for my real work, I use that machine as I can incorporate a little radio time at the same time. :)

What I have there is a Model M space saving keyboard. And that pic in the link look to be about the same size.

As I sat and thought some more, the original PC and XT and AT keyboards were Model F. The larger one I used on the 3270PC was as well. The Model M didn't come along until the PS/2.

The main difference being the buckling spring works a fly plate in the Model F, which is altering a capacitance. The Model M still has a buckling spring with a smaller fly plate that hits a membrane and so is sensed via resistance.

Another one of those E for Efficiency awards IBM was so fond of. ;)

And this means I have just as many Model F ones around as I have Model M ones.

Stan
 
Hi,

Thanks. I'll give one a try. I think I'd like a longer travel minus the mechanical noise.
If you go all the way to the bottom of the keystroke, this keyboard is quite noisy.
I'm not a fan of all these short throw rubber dome keyboards even though I use lots of them.

Where I can really use one is on the ham shack computer. I use that most of all. Even when writing reports for my real work, I use that machine as I can incorporate a little radio time at the same time. :)

What I have there is a Model M space saving keyboard. And that pic in the link look to be about the same size.

As I sat and thought some more, the original PC and XT and AT keyboards were Model F. The larger one I used on the 3270PC was as well. The Model M didn't come along until the PS/2.

The main difference being the buckling spring works a fly plate in the Model F, which is altering a capacitance. The Model M still has a buckling spring with a smaller fly plate that hits a membrane and so is sensed via resistance.

Another one of those E for Efficiency awards IBM was so fond of. ;)

And this means I have just as many Model F ones around as I have Model M ones.

Stan
 

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