I have shot HS basketball with the 70-180 and the 70-200 and I did not notice all that much of a difference.
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Advice on second camera body
- Thread starter wiz105
- Start date
What he says
Z6 iii rolling shutter:
The Z6 iii sensor scan time is 1/70 second (and even faster in DX mode). Z8: 1/270 second. Original Z6: 1/20 for 14-bit raw, Z7: 1/15 for 14-bit raw. The mechanical shutter is likely around 1/340 second.
I use the electronic shutter just about all the time. The frame-by-frame blackout is limited to the actual shutter open time, so when I'm using fast shutter speeds it's essentially a continuous view, even at 20 fps.
From the early days with my new Z6 iii, I shot a local bike race with some fast panning at 20 fps. The rolling shutter effect was minimal in a lot of the shots, and not too annoying in the fastest pans.
My post with sets of photos from an older thread, Z6iii electronic shutter settings.
Sequential panning frames from a bike race at 20 fps
The Z6 iii sensor scan time is 1/70 second (and even faster in DX mode). Z8: 1/270 second. Original Z6: 1/20 for 14-bit raw, Z7: 1/15 for 14-bit raw. The mechanical shutter is likely around 1/340 second.
I use the electronic shutter just about all the time. The frame-by-frame blackout is limited to the actual shutter open time, so when I'm using fast shutter speeds it's essentially a continuous view, even at 20 fps.
From the early days with my new Z6 iii, I shot a local bike race with some fast panning at 20 fps. The rolling shutter effect was minimal in a lot of the shots, and not too annoying in the fastest pans.
My post with sets of photos from an older thread, Z6iii electronic shutter settings.
Sequential panning frames from a bike race at 20 fps
For me, Z9 is too big. I don’t think I’d put a grip on a Z8 either. I prefer the size of my Z7, but I’m ok with something the size of the Z8. The weight doesn’t bother me either.
I carry a few batteries with me because I can’t charge the Z7 via USB when shooting. I believe the Z8 and Z6iii both allow for this, so if I’m doing Astro and need the power, I’d probably just do that. For everyday shooting, I can swap batteries.
Rich Rosen
Senior Member
You shouldn't if you have the proper lenses to get your proper field of view. But if you have to crop then a higher Mpixel camera would be advantageous.
It is definitely an improvement over previous models, maybe even over the Z8.
The Z8 is faster...how much faster; not magnitudes.
At first, it'l be confusing, but, given time, you'll find the two bodies aren't that different.
Both cameras have starlight.
I have both the Z6III and Z8. I love the lighter weight of the 6III and versatility of the Z8. Both cameras have excellent AF. The Z8 has a few more features and a lot more pixels. The image files from both cameras are the reason I've stayed with Nikon digital since the D1X (2000?).
monte12345
Senior Member
One advantage for the Z6 III is that it does have that Cfexpress type B memory slot. That is a distinctly high speed memory device with roughly 5 times the speed of the UHS-2 SDXC V90 memory cards. I have done some testing with my Zf and it takes a rather long time to hit the buffer limits. Since I really don't foresee the need for shooting 2 or 3 Hundred pics in one burst I consider the Zf to be nearly bottomless. With the Z6 III I suspect that you'll probably see heat warnings before you'll fill the buffer. BTW, I do use the HEIF memory scheme for RAW files.
Note, I do not remember how I stumbled on it but I did see a Web Source that stated the Maximum Sustained Internal Transfer Rate on all of the Z series cameras was limited to just 770gb/s. Which if true kind of blows up the "advantage" of the new type 4 CFexpress cards. Not having been able to actually find that particular site again has me questioning if that is an valid transfer rate or more internet misinformation. However I am certain that our cameras do have an internal buss that does limit the maximum transfer rate and I do wonder what it actually is.
Note, I do not remember how I stumbled on it but I did see a Web Source that stated the Maximum Sustained Internal Transfer Rate on all of the Z series cameras was limited to just 770gb/s. Which if true kind of blows up the "advantage" of the new type 4 CFexpress cards. Not having been able to actually find that particular site again has me questioning if that is an valid transfer rate or more internet misinformation. However I am certain that our cameras do have an internal buss that does limit the maximum transfer rate and I do wonder what it actually is.
monte12345
Senior Member
Beyond that I find your post to be both accurate and useful, so thank you for the post.
PS; On second thought that 1/8000 second is a bit misleading. Way back when the Slit time for a Focal Plane shutter was equal to the sync speed for an electronic flash. For the Nikon F2 the 1/80 second flash sync speed was a bit ground breaking. Looking on Google for the Zf produces a flash sync speed of 1/200 second.
Based on my years of experience with the F2 that 1/80 second slit time for the focal plane shutter didn't result in any noticeable effects of Rolling Shutter so that reported scan time of 1/70 second for the Z6 III indicates that Rolling Shutter on that model won't produce a noticeable amount of artifacts. At most Bird wings might be a bit distorted.
PS; On second thought that 1/8000 second is a bit misleading. Way back when the Slit time for a Focal Plane shutter was equal to the sync speed for an electronic flash. For the Nikon F2 the 1/80 second flash sync speed was a bit ground breaking. Looking on Google for the Zf produces a flash sync speed of 1/200 second.
Based on my years of experience with the F2 that 1/80 second slit time for the focal plane shutter didn't result in any noticeable effects of Rolling Shutter so that reported scan time of 1/70 second for the Z6 III indicates that Rolling Shutter on that model won't produce a noticeable amount of artifacts. At most Bird wings might be a bit distorted.
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monte12345
Senior Member
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monte12345
Senior Member
Because when you do that you'll come to realize that 24mp is more than enough to produce a very sharp 24 x 36 inch print. Fact is a lowly 12mp image file can be used to make a very good looking 24x36 inch print. Been there done that many many times with my D300.
I will also note that a 4K Monitor can only resolve an 8.3mp image. If you don't believe this then do the Math, it's quite easy. Think about that next time your thinking that you can't crop an image because you'll lose too much detail.
I will also note that a 4K Monitor can only resolve an 8.3mp image. If you don't believe this then do the Math, it's quite easy. Think about that next time your thinking that you can't crop an image because you'll lose too much detail.
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Terrible Photographer
Senior Member
If you're on a UHSII-U3 SD card, and running HE NEF, it's also bottomless to SD card.
This is true, but it depends on what a person shoots. If someone is shooting portraits in a studio all the time then 24MP will be well more than enough. If they are shooting sports or wildlife and having to crop, even if the crops aren't the most extreme things in the world, there can be a noticeable or even significant difference. Even event photographers can wind up getting usable shots from a distance with a higher MP camera that they wouldn't otherwise have had.
PHXAZCRAIG
Forum Pro
I always do an upgrade to my primary body, demoting the old one to '2nd shoulder'. Except for right now where I have only a Z9. No upgrade yet.
But I've done a bunch, and I can tell you what tends not to work.
First off, go for a Z8. It's just a much better camera. It will make you what do now easier. It will make what you do in the future possible. And you don't want to step back to lower resolution, unless you have a very specific reason. You also don't want to mix DX and FX as it makes lenses very awkward. (They don't flow - gaps or overlaps).
The argument in favor of a Z7 is primarily identical controls. I'm very much in favor of that, but there are decent arguments against it when talking about the Z8.
The Z8 is enough better than the Z7 that you will use it for any challenging subjects and scenes. Thus I think the Z7 will end up in situations where you don't need to worry so much about hitting the right control under pressure. I think the Z7 will come out for landscapes, but then why not use the Z8 instead? Wildlife? Z8.
When I'm using two cameras at the same time, it's usually one on each shoulder, and I've usually got a prime on each. Perhaps 35mm/85mm. Z7/Z8 should work pretty well there, but the control differences can catch you out.
But I've done a bunch, and I can tell you what tends not to work.
First off, go for a Z8. It's just a much better camera. It will make you what do now easier. It will make what you do in the future possible. And you don't want to step back to lower resolution, unless you have a very specific reason. You also don't want to mix DX and FX as it makes lenses very awkward. (They don't flow - gaps or overlaps).
The argument in favor of a Z7 is primarily identical controls. I'm very much in favor of that, but there are decent arguments against it when talking about the Z8.
The Z8 is enough better than the Z7 that you will use it for any challenging subjects and scenes. Thus I think the Z7 will end up in situations where you don't need to worry so much about hitting the right control under pressure. I think the Z7 will come out for landscapes, but then why not use the Z8 instead? Wildlife? Z8.
When I'm using two cameras at the same time, it's usually one on each shoulder, and I've usually got a prime on each. Perhaps 35mm/85mm. Z7/Z8 should work pretty well there, but the control differences can catch you out.
Yes. My crops often take me to DX size and a touch smaller. I did prints with my D70 that were kind of large and the D300. But I never had the luxury to do a total revamp of the picture from was impossible with those cameras (well ok for internet but not prints).
Normally my pictures are mostly ready in camera. There is very little post processing. But with the large sensor I don’t mind cropping to DX and even a little smaller, these for large photo books. I agree the most of my prints could be done with a 24MP camera. Easily. But there are those that I love and would like to make a poster size picture.
Normally my pictures are mostly ready in camera. There is very little post processing. But with the large sensor I don’t mind cropping to DX and even a little smaller, these for large photo books. I agree the most of my prints could be done with a 24MP camera. Easily. But there are those that I love and would like to make a poster size picture.
I mentioned wildlife and sports above, but honestly there are other times cropping comes in handy. I shoot team and individual portraits for kids ranging from fairly young up to high school. Because it's done on a volume basis, all the final shots need to be cropped, or at least be croppable, to 8x10 since I am only able to submit one image of each kid that people will be able to choose to get as 8x10, 5x7, 4x6, and a few other weird sizes. This means I always have to shoot a bit wider than I might if I were able to compose photos for their own individual aspect ratios. I also unfortunately don't always know up front whether or not that particular group is going to want full body, 3/4, or upper body shots, so I am often having to shoot full body just in case.
I also am usually having to run through these groups extremely quickly because while the parents want the photos the only time it can be done is during a practice and so the coaches want me to get through 25 kids in 30 minutes or something like that AND other than the high school and sometimes the middle school kids it already takes a while to get each kid to stand in the right place, look in the right direction (some of the elementary aged kids, even older ones, will have a hard time understanding that the softbox is not where they need to look and it will take 30 seconds to get them to look at the camera) and of course young kids tend to move around a lot even when they think they aren't and so I'm already taking a few minutes and ~10 shots of each kid just to get one usable photo without needing to take the the time to do it again for the full body.
One benefit of this is that I will often get a few different decent shots of a kid in that 5-10 I fire off which may not be the pose they were going for but which I still think a parent may like and so I can offer those extras to the parents for sale as well. Sometimes I'll get a kid accidentally doing something that would make a really great pose just as a headshot or even just as a literal close up just on the face or whatever, and on my 45 MP camera that may work out to be <10 MP or even less but I can still sell these as 8x10s and expect great quality. On a 20 or 24MP camera I wouldn't be able to use all of these sorts of things I get as well as I can on the 45.
I also am usually having to run through these groups extremely quickly because while the parents want the photos the only time it can be done is during a practice and so the coaches want me to get through 25 kids in 30 minutes or something like that AND other than the high school and sometimes the middle school kids it already takes a while to get each kid to stand in the right place, look in the right direction (some of the elementary aged kids, even older ones, will have a hard time understanding that the softbox is not where they need to look and it will take 30 seconds to get them to look at the camera) and of course young kids tend to move around a lot even when they think they aren't and so I'm already taking a few minutes and ~10 shots of each kid just to get one usable photo without needing to take the the time to do it again for the full body.
One benefit of this is that I will often get a few different decent shots of a kid in that 5-10 I fire off which may not be the pose they were going for but which I still think a parent may like and so I can offer those extras to the parents for sale as well. Sometimes I'll get a kid accidentally doing something that would make a really great pose just as a headshot or even just as a literal close up just on the face or whatever, and on my 45 MP camera that may work out to be <10 MP or even less but I can still sell these as 8x10s and expect great quality. On a 20 or 24MP camera I wouldn't be able to use all of these sorts of things I get as well as I can on the 45.
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greenmanphoto
Senior Member
Wiz,
Do what works best for you, certainly. For ME, I prefer a gripped body. Otherwise, my pinkie hangs off the bottom of the body, and I don't feel like I have a good grip on the body. I put grips on ALL of my bodies: D200, D300, D500, D700, and D850. I just don't like holding them without a grip. I also feel like a grip gives better leverage with longer, heavier lenses, as well as providing the extra shutter release and other controls for portrait orientation.
Not that I'm trying to change your mind or anything! Just explaining where I'm coming from.
I am like 99 percent sure the Z8 allows for in-camera charging, and I think the Z6III probably does, as well. Not positive, though. I believe that Nikon is including this with every newer body.
Sam
vbuhay
Veteran Member
NT
greenmanphoto
Senior Member
Monte,
I disagree with this statement about not needing a grip for a variety of reasons. A grip allows for MORE than simply providing something more for "Right Handing" (whatever THAT means!) a camera. It provides more leverage for larger, heavier lenses, which makes it easier to handle those lenses. It provides another set of controls--including shutter release--for use when in portrait orientation, and that helps one with a more stable position when shooting portrait orientation instead of having one's elbow sticking out because of the position of the arm when shooting that way. And then there's the extra battery involved, as well, and for some of Nikon's cameras, the use of the larger EN-EL18 battery, as well.
As for using the left hand for the lens and the right for the controls, I don't know how else one would hold a camera since that's the way they're designed in the first place.
Yes, 24mp cameras can yield very good prints, up to a certain size, and probably large enough for the vast majority of people. But to say that the ONLY way to see a difference between an image taken with a 24mp camera and one taken with a 45mp image is from a really large print is mistaken. A larger resolution image is going to have more detail than one with less resolution, and that's something that can be seen in smaller prints. How MUCH of a difference, and if it's enough of a difference for the user, will be up to that user.
Auto ISO is a useful tool, and when set up properly, functions the way it is designed to do and will produce a very good image. Should it be used ALL the time? IMHO, no. And I don't use it all the time. However, I DO use it when the need arises. BUT--here's the key to stop the problem you cite as the aperture not working the way it should--you HAVE to set it up correctly. If not, then you'll get the sort of issues that you're talking about, as well as others. But to say one shouldn't use Auto ISO at all is, IMHO, bad advice.
Rolling shutter can certainly be a problem, and while I don't have a Zf or a Z6 III and haven't used one of them, I can't say just how well or not they handle that particular issue. But, once again, there are times when using the electronic shutter is useful and helpful (and possibly even necessary!), and times when you shouldn't do so. Knowing the camera, the situation you're shooting, and whether or not it would be appropriate for it, is up to the photographer to decide. Proper use of all of the tools available to one, instead of merely saying, "Don't use X", is a sign of growth as a photographer.
IMHO, the whole control layout and design of the Zf may or may not be a MAJOR factor in choosing one over any other camera. Some people like the old-style SLR control layout and form factor and others don't. But that's a pretty major factor when deciding a camera. Modern DSLRs and mirrorless bodies (at least from a certain price point on up) are designed to be able to change MANY controls and settings without ever taking your eye away from the viewfinder. That's not always the case with the Zf, as I understand it.
YMMV, of course.
Sam
So with the recent refurb sale, I took advantage and ended up going with the Z8. I probably had both it and the Z6iii in my cart about 2 or 3 times each, but ultimately I value the resolution of the Z8 a little bit more. I know the Z6iii can make good prints, but I like having the resolution headroom if needed.
Thanks to everyone for their input!
Thanks to everyone for their input!
So I did more research on the Tamron 35-150 F2-2.8 and this lens is really starting to grow on me as an option. Thanks for suggesting it. I'm going to strongly consider. Generally when I'm shooting the indoor events I can't move around a lot, but maybe if I pick my location better, I can make the 35mm end work for me. Having a slightly faster lens would be beneficial, and I'm assuming this lens would also do well for portraiture. I'm a fan of double duty lenses.
sirhawkeye64
Forum Pro
The extra resolution is nice if you do have to crop in post or want to print larger. It is kind of a trade-off though, as you're trading slightly less DR and higher noise for more mega pixels but overall, it's not bad like it used to be with high res FF cameras (thinking back to the D800/D810 days where images above about ISO 3200 got quite noisy and were perhaps borderlined not usable).
But I think the z8 was a good choice. You can go out and shoot all sorts of genres without really having to worry about performance, not that the Z6 III is bad, but the Z8 is a step higher and shares most of the same features as the flagship. At least that was my thought process when buying the Z8 (although the Z6 III and Zf wasn't out yet when I bought mine so it was really the ONLY option other than getting a Z9 if you wanted performance a high res).
Just take some time with the manual and maybe some videos. Maybe even consider Thom's books and Steve Perry's auto focus guide as well (very in-depth) and really learn the system if you've not shot with a modern Z camera (the AF is a bit different than the previous gen Z cameras like the Z6/Z7 gen I/II, and the APSC bodies). Also might be a good idea to put the PDF manual on your phone for in-field use too.
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PLEASE NOTE: I usually unsubscribe from forums and comments after a period of time, so if I do not respond, that is likely the reason. Feel free to PM me if you have a questions or need clarification about a comment I made.
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