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Excellent 'state of the industry' article on byThom with Nikon Z relevance, and a bit more

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Paddler213 said:
SGA said:
I just received a 36x18” print made from an Olympus E-M1.3, which has 20MP (5860x3172) pixels on it’s m43 sensor, and cropped only along the short axis. It was shot from a small boat cruising in the river that cuts through Bangkok, super-res’d with Lightroom, and upscaled in Photoshop to 65MP. It’s flawless - the image looks great, you can’t see any dots, lettering on buildings on the shore is readable (if one can read the Thai script).

So 24MP can definitely print much larger than 13.5x19”.
Paddler213 said:
I was somewhat surprised when he said that the Z6 III was "probably all the camera that most people really need. Major win." And only 24MP. But unless one needs to print larger than 13.5x19, he's probably right.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
But you printed a 65MP file. You went through gyrations to get there, but it was 65MP. I was talking about native sensor resolution.
Click to expand...
Yea but that also means we don't need high resolution to print big. We're not limited by resolution and technology can help us if we know how to. I've been using on both ends of the resolution argument, from the occasional upscaling to denoising high resolution photos. If you have 24MP you're set for almost anything.

Now that said, you have presented the case for the Z7 for the few who don't want to jump through hoops to get high resolution and wish to preserve some level of technical integrity to their works, maybe as a requirement like photojournalism.
 
Droster said:
Paddler213 said:
SGA said:
I just received a 36x18” print made from an Olympus E-M1.3, which has 20MP (5860x3172) pixels on it’s m43 sensor, and cropped only along the short axis. It was shot from a small boat cruising in the river that cuts through Bangkok, super-res’d with Lightroom, and upscaled in Photoshop to 65MP. It’s flawless - the image looks great, you can’t see any dots, lettering on buildings on the shore is readable (if one can read the Thai script).

So 24MP can definitely print much larger than 13.5x19”.
Paddler213 said:
I was somewhat surprised when he said that the Z6 III was "probably all the camera that most people really need. Major win." And only 24MP. But unless one needs to print larger than 13.5x19, he's probably right.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
But you printed a 65MP file. You went through gyrations to get there, but it was 65MP. I was talking about native sensor resolution.
Click to expand...
Yea but that also means we don't need high resolution to print big. We're not limited by resolution and technology can help us if we know how to. I've been using on both ends of the resolution argument, from the occasional upscaling to denoising high resolution photos. If you have 24MP you're set for almost anything.

Now that said, you have presented the case for the Z7 for the few who don't want to jump through hoops to get high resolution and wish to preserve some level of technical integrity to their works, maybe as a requirement like photojournalism.
Click to expand...
I don't print larger than 13x19, so I'm comfortable with my Z5 plus excellent lenses for landscape. My Z6 III isn't as good for BIF as my Z9 as I often need to crop and I run out of pixels. Otherwise I tend to agree with Thom, for most people the Z6 III is all the camera they need except in especially demanding circumstances.
 
Wezre said:
Great articles from Thom, as always. Sadly, Thom hasn't posted here in about 5 months. Whether he just doesn't have time for it any more, or something else happened that caused him to stop posting (my theory), I miss his insightful contributions to the forum. As his articles earlier this year indicated would be the case, he also seems to have reduced the frequency that he posts articles to his site. I think there are several pending reviews that he has in the works, so hopefully we'll see more of those soon. I also suspect that he's been testing some new products under NDAs, and is busy with a lot of the associated feedback to Nikon/other manufacturers. It wouldn't surprise me if he has a Z9ii test mule or lenses that he's been putting through their paces. His commentary and speculation on the Z5ii leads me to believe he doesn't have one in his hands. I don't think he could post the speculation he did if he was under an NDA. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets one soon, though, if it is going to be announced in April.
Click to expand...
His negative experience on this thread last year seems to have been a finale. A number of aggressive responses by a poster were removed when it was locked.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67949830
 
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Based on his comments that there will be companion lenses to 24-50, I think Nikon will be going for small and light with this camera.

If they can get the ZF sensor in it - I suspect the Z5II will use the body of and be identical to the Z50ii in all things, except of course Full Framed. They have the same lens mount - is the distance to sensor different in an FX vs DX body?

That could be a neat Camera priced a few hundred above the Z50II.
 
chambeshi said:
Wezre said:
Great articles from Thom, as always. Sadly, Thom hasn't posted here in about 5 months. Whether he just doesn't have time for it any more, or something else happened that caused him to stop posting (my theory), I miss his insightful contributions to the forum. As his articles earlier this year indicated would be the case, he also seems to have reduced the frequency that he posts articles to his site. I think there are several pending reviews that he has in the works, so hopefully we'll see more of those soon. I also suspect that he's been testing some new products under NDAs, and is busy with a lot of the associated feedback to Nikon/other manufacturers. It wouldn't surprise me if he has a Z9ii test mule or lenses that he's been putting through their paces. His commentary and speculation on the Z5ii leads me to believe he doesn't have one in his hands. I don't think he could post the speculation he did if he was under an NDA. I wouldn't be surprised if he gets one soon, though, if it is going to be announced in April.
Click to expand...
His negative experience on this thread last year seems to have been a finale. A number of aggressive responses by a poster were removed when it was locked.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67949830
Click to expand...
Yes, that was my recollection but I was avoiding linking to/mentioning the exact thread.
 
morrisondane said:
Based on his comments that there will be companion lenses to 24-50, I think Nikon will be going for small and light with this camera.

If they can get the ZF sensor in it - I suspect the Z5II will use the body of and be identical to the Z50ii in all things, except of course Full Framed. They have the same lens mount - is the distance to sensor different in an FX vs DX body?

That could be a neat Camera priced a few hundred above the Z50II.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't see a problem getting the Zf sensor in the Z5 II.. The bigger "issue" would be the Expeed 7 that may require a thicker body for cooling purposes (so the body may be similar to the Z6 III as Thom somewhat mentions).

But as I said in another reply, this does have me wonder about the sensor. Will it be the same 24MP sensor or will Nikon buy one off the shelf from Sony (maybe the one used in the A7 IV) since Sony is likely to replace that camera within a year anyway and may use a different sensor for that body. (But in Nikon style, they would artificially limit the Z5 II in some ways, say reduce burst rate and limited video specs).

--
PLEASE NOTE: I usually unsubscribe from forums and comments after a period of time, so if I do not respond, that is likely the reason. Feel free to PM me if you have a questions or need clarification about a comment I made.
 
Last edited:
sirhawkeye64 said:
morrisondane said:
Based on his comments that there will be companion lenses to 24-50, I think Nikon will be going for small and light with this camera.

If they can get the ZF sensor in it - I suspect the Z5II will use the body of and be identical to the Z50ii in all things, except of course Full Framed. They have the same lens mount - is the distance to sensor different in an FX vs DX body?

That could be a neat Camera priced a few hundred above the Z50II.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't see a problem getting the Zf sensor in the Z5 II.. The bigger "issue" would be the Expeed 7 that may require a thicker body for cooling purposes (so the body may be similar to the Z6 III as Thom somewhat mentions).

But as I said in another reply, this does have me wonder about the sensor. Will it be the same 24MP sensor or will Nikon buy one off the shelf from Sony (maybe the one used in the A7 IV) since Sony is likely to replace that camera within a year anyway and may use a different sensor for that body. (But in Nikon style, they would artificially limit the Z5 II in some ways, say reduce burst rate and limited video specs).
Click to expand...
The Z50II already has the Expeed7 - I'm suggesting getting the ZF Full frame sensor into the Z50IIDX body - no idea if it can be done.
 
morrisondane said:
sirhawkeye64 said:
morrisondane said:
Based on his comments that there will be companion lenses to 24-50, I think Nikon will be going for small and light with this camera.

If they can get the ZF sensor in it - I suspect the Z5II will use the body of and be identical to the Z50ii in all things, except of course Full Framed. They have the same lens mount - is the distance to sensor different in an FX vs DX body?

That could be a neat Camera priced a few hundred above the Z50II.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't see a problem getting the Zf sensor in the Z5 II.. The bigger "issue" would be the Expeed 7 that may require a thicker body for cooling purposes (so the body may be similar to the Z6 III as Thom somewhat mentions).

But as I said in another reply, this does have me wonder about the sensor. Will it be the same 24MP sensor or will Nikon buy one off the shelf from Sony (maybe the one used in the A7 IV) since Sony is likely to replace that camera within a year anyway and may use a different sensor for that body. (But in Nikon style, they would artificially limit the Z5 II in some ways, say reduce burst rate and limited video specs).
Click to expand...
The Z50II already has the Expeed7 - I'm suggesting getting the ZF Full frame sensor into the Z50IIDX body - no idea if it can be done.
Click to expand...
I'm sure that it's possible, or won't require much stretching. The big issue would be the battery. Otherwise, the present Z5 body is just a skosh bigger than the z50ii. IBIS would require a modest thickening.
 
mosswings said:
morrisondane said:
sirhawkeye64 said:
morrisondane said:
Based on his comments that there will be companion lenses to 24-50, I think Nikon will be going for small and light with this camera.

If they can get the ZF sensor in it - I suspect the Z5II will use the body of and be identical to the Z50ii in all things, except of course Full Framed. They have the same lens mount - is the distance to sensor different in an FX vs DX body?

That could be a neat Camera priced a few hundred above the Z50II.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't see a problem getting the Zf sensor in the Z5 II.. The bigger "issue" would be the Expeed 7 that may require a thicker body for cooling purposes (so the body may be similar to the Z6 III as Thom somewhat mentions).

But as I said in another reply, this does have me wonder about the sensor. Will it be the same 24MP sensor or will Nikon buy one off the shelf from Sony (maybe the one used in the A7 IV) since Sony is likely to replace that camera within a year anyway and may use a different sensor for that body. (But in Nikon style, they would artificially limit the Z5 II in some ways, say reduce burst rate and limited video specs).
Click to expand...
The Z50II already has the Expeed7 - I'm suggesting getting the ZF Full frame sensor into the Z50IIDX body - no idea if it can be done.
Click to expand...
I'm sure that it's possible, or won't require much stretching. The big issue would be the battery. Otherwise, the present Z5 body is just a skosh bigger than the z50ii. IBIS would require a modest thickening.
Click to expand...
The structural bits for the Z50II design's bottom plate are probably intruding into space behind the mount that they'd normally use for the bottom of the IBIS unit.
 
morrisondane said:
sirhawkeye64 said:
morrisondane said:
Based on his comments that there will be companion lenses to 24-50, I think Nikon will be going for small and light with this camera.

If they can get the ZF sensor in it - I suspect the Z5II will use the body of and be identical to the Z50ii in all things, except of course Full Framed. They have the same lens mount - is the distance to sensor different in an FX vs DX body?

That could be a neat Camera priced a few hundred above the Z50II.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't see a problem getting the Zf sensor in the Z5 II.. The bigger "issue" would be the Expeed 7 that may require a thicker body for cooling purposes (so the body may be similar to the Z6 III as Thom somewhat mentions).

But as I said in another reply, this does have me wonder about the sensor. Will it be the same 24MP sensor or will Nikon buy one off the shelf from Sony (maybe the one used in the A7 IV) since Sony is likely to replace that camera within a year anyway and may use a different sensor for that body. (But in Nikon style, they would artificially limit the Z5 II in some ways, say reduce burst rate and limited video specs).
Click to expand...
The Z50II already has the Expeed7 - I'm suggesting getting the ZF Full frame sensor into the Z50IIDX body - no idea if it can be done.
Click to expand...
They probably won't do that for a number of reasons -- one big one being the battery and where they would put a second card slot (even a micro SD card slot). They may be able to re-use the Z5 body, as it may be thick enough for the new hardware (mainly the additional cooling needed for an Expeed 7 especially if they re-design the PCB in the camera (which they will probably have to modify it at least).
 
Paddler213 said:
SGA said:
I just received a 36x18” print made from an Olympus E-M1.3, which has 20MP (5860x3172) pixels on it’s m43 sensor, and cropped only along the short axis. It was shot from a small boat cruising in the river that cuts through Bangkok, super-res’d with Lightroom, and upscaled in Photoshop to 65MP. It’s flawless - the image looks great, you can’t see any dots, lettering on buildings on the shore is readable (if one can read the Thai script).

So 24MP can definitely print much larger than 13.5x19”.
Paddler213 said:
I was somewhat surprised when he said that the Z6 III was "probably all the camera that most people really need. Major win." And only 24MP. But unless one needs to print larger than 13.5x19, he's probably right.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
But you printed a 65MP file. You went through gyrations to get there, but it was 65MP. I was talking about native sensor resolution.
Click to expand...
A 24" x 36" print at 150 ppi only takes 19.44 MP. So 24 MP is not really a limit. I've made prints that size using 12 MP, 24 MP and 45 MP cameras. If you print at 300 ppi, you need 77.76 MP and no Nikon, Sony or Canon has a native sensor that size. I don't see people running out and buying medium format 100MP cameras much, so that doesn't seem to be driving the market. Even with 45 MP, you still have to upscale the image to achieve 300 ppi.
 
MasterOfGoingFaster said:
Paddler213 said:
SGA said:
I just received a 36x18” print made from an Olympus E-M1.3, which has 20MP (5860x3172) pixels on it’s m43 sensor, and cropped only along the short axis. It was shot from a small boat cruising in the river that cuts through Bangkok, super-res’d with Lightroom, and upscaled in Photoshop to 65MP. It’s flawless - the image looks great, you can’t see any dots, lettering on buildings on the shore is readable (if one can read the Thai script).

So 24MP can definitely print much larger than 13.5x19”.
Paddler213 said:
I was somewhat surprised when he said that the Z6 III was "probably all the camera that most people really need. Major win." And only 24MP. But unless one needs to print larger than 13.5x19, he's probably right.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
But you printed a 65MP file. You went through gyrations to get there, but it was 65MP. I was talking about native sensor resolution.
Click to expand...
A 24" x 36" print at 150 ppi only takes 19.44 MP. So 24 MP is not really a limit. I've made prints that size using 12 MP, 24 MP and 45 MP cameras. If you print at 300 ppi, you need 77.76 MP and no Nikon, Sony or Canon has a native sensor that size. I don't see people running out and buying medium format 100MP cameras much, so that doesn't seem to be driving the market. Even with 45 MP, you still have to upscale the image to achieve 300 ppi.
Click to expand...
My printer is a 17" model, which is plenty for me. The Z9 will print 27.5" X 18.3" at 300DPI, and a 36" x 24" print will have 229DPI, or 53% more resolution than a 24MP image. I'd be comfortable with the former, not sure about the latter.

I suppose it really comes down to how much wall space you have.
 
Paddler213 said:
I was somewhat surprised when he said that the Z6 III was "probably all the camera that most people really need. Major win." And only 24MP. But unless one needs to print larger than 13.5x19, he's probably right.
Click to expand...
I think a major component that we need to remember is most viewing of photography is experienced from a smartphone. Things are being seen on high quality, but small screens, where 24mp is more than enough to create a high quality image with no noticeable resolution problems. Like you say yourself, you need to be bigger than 13.5x19 to really notice the difference.
 
All the linked articles seem focused on iterations and more-of "what's been". Funny how few prognosticators and market watchers are focused on the prospects of major changes coming to Nikon's MILC Z line-up based on their acquisition of RED. Two companies with a shared hunger to shake things up and bring new tools for creatives.

I fully expect a Z500 (read: MILC D500) based on Komodo-X global shutter 19.9MP crop sensor, 32-bit float audio, in a Z6III cooled body, coming sooner than later. Camera software updates are more important than ≥17-stops of DR? LOL Try both coming in the same body. :)
 
Or rather Nikon is positioned on RED to close the gaps in the proverbial circle. RED hardware and software enables Nikon to fully expand the Z System across the Stills and Cinematography industries. Hybrid cameras are integral going forward....
Jimmy G said:
All the linked articles seem focused on iterations and more-of "what's been". Funny how few prognosticators and market watchers are focused on the prospects of major changes coming to Nikon's MILC Z line-up based on their acquisition of RED. Two companies with a shared hunger to shake things up and bring new tools for creatives.
Click to expand...
I agree

Nikon sees 'Video Creatives' as its growing market

Jimmy G said:
I fully expect a Z500 (read: MILC D500) based on Komodo-X global shutter 19.9MP crop sensor, 32-bit float audio, in a Z6III cooled body, coming sooner than later.
Click to expand...
It's probably in countdown :-D:-D
Jimmy G said:
Camera software updates are more important than ≥17-stops of DR? LOL Try both coming in the same body. :)
Click to expand...
Nikon would have been planning how to cross pollinate and fit existing RED sensors before the buy out was initiated let alone finalized. These hardware and software assets probably formed the basis of internal motivations for how to rapidly grow up Nikon's video portfolio.

Forthcoming RED Nikon releases are going to be fascinating, and get the conservative industry sages and soothsayers reaching for their oxygen masks in shock....
 
Last edited:
Jimmy G said:
All the linked articles seem focused on iterations and more-of "what's been". Funny how few prognosticators and market watchers are focused on the prospects of major changes coming to Nikon's MILC Z line-up based on their acquisition of RED. Two companies with a shared hunger to shake things up and bring new tools for creatives.

I fully expect a Z500 (read: MILC D500) based on Komodo-X global shutter 19.9MP crop sensor, 32-bit float audio, in a Z6III cooled body, coming sooner than later. Camera software updates are more important than ≥17-stops of DR? LOL Try both coming in the same body. :)
Click to expand...
Especially if the rumoured FX3 wannabe machine is going to end up looking like an FX3, then said DX version would probably look something like this:

Loading…

www.dpreview.com

51fda242776b4bb380cbe2e68bb52f2e.jpg.png

It too can sit nicely in the upper half of the $1.5k to $2k bracket.
 
Paddler213 said:
MasterOfGoingFaster said:
A 24" x 36" print at 150 ppi only takes 19.44 MP. So 24 MP is not really a limit. I've made prints that size using 12 MP, 24 MP and 45 MP cameras. If you print at 300 ppi, you need 77.76 MP and no Nikon, Sony or Canon has a native sensor that size. I don't see people running out and buying medium format 100MP cameras much, so that doesn't seem to be driving the market. Even with 45 MP, you still have to upscale the image to achieve 300 ppi.
Click to expand...
My printer is a 17" model, which is plenty for me. The Z9 will print 27.5" X 18.3" at 300DPI, and a 36" x 24" print will have 229DPI, or 53% more resolution than a 24MP image. I'd be comfortable with the former, not sure about the latter.
Click to expand...
I doubt your printer will print 229 ppi. Most printers have a mechanical resolution of 1200 dpi or 1440 dpi. You can't print a fraction of a dot, so your resolution has to be a multiple of dots. Plus you need multiple dots to create dithering to blend separate color dots. On a 1200 dpi printer, you get 1200ppi at 1:1, 600ppi at 1:2, 400ppi at 1:3, 300ppi at 1:4, 240ppi at 1:5, 200ppi at 1:6, 150ppi at 1:8.

If you try to print at a non-integer ratio, the driver will be scaling your file to achieve an integer ratio. Drivers are perhaps the worst way to re-scale. You would be better to re-scale in an editing program to your print size @ 300ppi than to print at 229 ppi.

Plus dithering has its own effect. A 1200 dpi black ink printer (laser printer) cannot create gray at 1200 ppi, as each dot can only be black or white. But dithering creates 3 shades of gray at 600 ppi, 15 shades at 300 ppi, and 63 shades at 150 ppi. So depending on the image and printer capabilities, a print may look worse at a higher resolution and look better at a lower resolution due to dithering.

24MP is not the limitation most people think it is.
Paddler213 said:
I suppose it really comes down to how much wall space you have.
Click to expand...
My clients have plenty of wall space, thanks.
 
jthomas39 said:
In the Industry Problems link, after talking about increasing complexity and a huge number of available options (bold added):
jthomas39 said:
My number one request of Nikon ... A settings system where I can name my camera settings files (birding, wildlife, football, ice hockey, portrait, etc.) and restore them with a single command (or better yet, button press, e.g. Cycle saved settings).
Click to expand...
In the Big vs Small updates link, I'm listing the biggest wins mentioned. Read it for the details and reasons.
jthomas39 said:
Z50 to Z50II: big win.

Z6 ii to Z6 iii: major win.

Z8's firmware v2: significant win.

Z9's repeated firmware enhancements: big win.

Zf's ultimate retro camera: significant win.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Does anyone know what order Big vs. Major vs. Significant go?

I thought Z9 was the biggest (he is talking about all of the Z9, not just firmware) and he only called it "Big win". I'm mostly joking!
 
sirhawkeye64 said:
TechStrider said:
A very good and nuanced look at industry constraints and where things stand:

https://bythom.com/newsviews/an-industry-problem.html

In addition he has another couple of Z specific articles as well:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/big-updates-versus-small.html

The second of those is more specific about likely next product but helps with the overall picture of where the Z world is:

https://www.zsystemuser.com/nikon-z-system-news-and/big-updates-versus-small.html

Good reads...
Click to expand...
Last part of the first article does make sense. i don't think a Z9 II will be all that much different than a the original Z9 except maybe a better EVF and software refinement, as Thom says. Same for the Z8 II probably (in fact it may get the same treatment, and maintain the same level of difference from the Z9).
Click to expand...
Which has me asking, would Z8ii / Z9ii with better EVF & refined software justify an upgrade; without a sizeable rebate?

Software refinement via Z8ii / Z9ii would be kind of slap-n-face to Z8 & Z9 owners. Unless Nikon offered same software refinements Z8 & Z9 for a very reasonable fee.
sirhawkeye64 said:
Although part of me does wonder if Nikon would make the Z8 a 60MP camera to compete with the Sony A7R series, not that an extra 15MP would be enough to sway me to buy one personally.
Click to expand...
That would be one mentioned reason I would consider a Z8ii. Much prefer +60Mp sensor be in Z7iii. Along with turbo-charged, Nitrous oxide fuel injected Expeed-7 (aka Expeed 8). I admit, Z7ii is looking more and more like end of line. :-(
 
GadgetBoy said:
jthomas39 said:
In the Industry Problems link, after talking about increasing complexity and a huge number of available options (bold added):
GadgetBoy said:
My number one request of Nikon ... A settings system where I can name my camera settings files (birding, wildlife, football, ice hockey, portrait, etc.) and restore them with a single command (or better yet, button press, e.g. Cycle saved settings).
Click to expand...
In the Big vs Small updates link, I'm listing the biggest wins mentioned. Read it for the details and reasons.
GadgetBoy said:
Z50 to Z50II: big win.

Z6 ii to Z6 iii: major win.

Z8's firmware v2: significant win.

Z9's repeated firmware enhancements: big win.

Zf's ultimate retro camera: significant win.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
Does anyone know what order Big vs. Major vs. Significant go?

I thought Z9 was the biggest (he is talking about all of the Z9, not just firmware) and he only called it "Big win". I'm mostly joking!
Click to expand...
Big > Major > Significant. Z9's becoming almost a new camera through firmware post-intro, obviously big. Z50 to Z50ii: the Z50 wasn't hamstrung for silly reasons. It went from a nice little meh camera to holy smokes! for only $900. Zf: nothing earthshaking, but it touched a nerve and was done the right way. It won the hearts of many as a consequence. Z6ii to Z6iii: big but with some stumbles that knocked it down a peg. If the Z6iii hadn't come out with the low-ISO DR reduction that it did, and preserved the Z6 and Z7's excellent DR, it would have been BIG.
 
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