Magnesium vs Aluminum

Still misunderstand...I never said they did not. But the Black model was originally planned to not be Ti top/bottom plates.
Do you have a source for that?
Was noted in a few reviews with insider sources. I read it again today...if I find the link again I'll pass it on
I find it extremely hard to believe considering magnesium is way cheaper than Titanium,
exactly...wanted to save a little with the black version (not use Ti)

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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
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I don't think that camera bodies can readily be manufactured out of carbon fiber reinforced polymer because I can't see how you would wind carbon fiber onto that shape.
Many camera bodies are made of carbon fiber reinforced polymers. https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1807917/
Interesting. They apparently use something called Sereebo, which is a thermoplastic with short carbon fibers in it. You can injection mold it. And it's used, among other places, in my D750.

I'm not sure of the properties of this stuff. Carbon fiber reinforced plastic as used in aircraft and bicycles uses long fibers that are applied as mats or spun on. This can be very strong since carbon fibers are very strong. I don't know what degree of reinforcement is provided by short fibers but it's not going to be comparable to fiber layups.
 
I don't think that camera bodies can readily be manufactured out of carbon fiber reinforced polymer because I can't see how you would wind carbon fiber onto that shape.
Many camera bodies are made of carbon fiber reinforced polymers. https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1807917/
Interesting. They apparently use something called Sereebo, which is a thermoplastic with short carbon fibers in it. You can injection mold it. And it's used, among other places, in my D750.

I'm not sure of the properties of this stuff. Carbon fiber reinforced plastic as used in aircraft and bicycles uses long fibers that are applied as mats or spun on. This can be very strong since carbon fibers are very strong. I don't know what degree of reinforcement is provided by short fibers but it's not going to be comparable to fiber layups.
Any Carbon fibre composite is going to have poor thermal conductivity, which is apparently important for video/high FPS shooters. Aluminium appears to have better thermal conductivity than Magnesium, significantly so in the pure state and possibly 50% better as alloys Thermal conductivity . Which might explain why some camera makers are switching back. Obviously Copper, Gold or Silver would be better in this respect but at a significant cost in both price and weight.
 
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They use magnesium because it's cheaper to produce(cheaper to buy
A fact? That's not what the price data that I found says.
Thanks for looking that up. It had me scratching my head. Historically magnesium was quite expensive, and not much used for consumer products. It has apparently become more affordable,
It has come down, but I've seen no price data saying it's cheaper than aluminum.
as the auto industry is using it heavily. In the right application, if can be lighter. The items I see it being used for aren't subject to much force.
 
I don't think that camera bodies can readily be manufactured out of carbon fiber reinforced polymer because I can't see how you would wind carbon fiber onto that shape.
Many camera bodies are made of carbon fiber reinforced polymers. https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1807917/
Interesting. They apparently use something called Sereebo, which is a thermoplastic with short carbon fibers in it. You can injection mold it. And it's used, among other places, in my D750.

I'm not sure of the properties of this stuff. Carbon fiber reinforced plastic as used in aircraft and bicycles uses long fibers that are applied as mats or spun on. This can be very strong since carbon fibers are very strong. I don't know what degree of reinforcement is provided by short fibers but it's not going to be comparable to fiber layups.
Any Carbon fibre composite is going to have poor thermal conductivity, which is apparently important for video/high FPS shooters. Aluminium appears to have better thermal conductivity than Magnesium, significantly so in the pure state and possibly 50% better as alloys Thermal conductivity . Which might explain why some camera makers are switching back. Obviously Copper, Gold or Silver would be better in this respect but at a significant cost in both price and weight.
The standard aluminum die casting alloy A360 has a thermal conductivity of 113 W/m-K while magnesium AZ91 has slightly lower conductivity of 73 W/m-K. Not enough difference to care about. I couldn't find the thermal properties of Sereebo-P, which is what Nikon uses, but its polymer matrix is polycarbonate, which has drastically lower conductivity: 0.2 W/m-K. So if you're trying to conduct heat away, don't use plastic.
 
The whole marketing thing around materials exists in many product sectors. I ride bikes, and there is an awful lot of utter BS in that industry. For a start, the term 'aerospace' when referring to a particular material or alloy etc. This is a nonsense designed to 'sex up' the otherwise pretty mundane material. I mean, wood is used in the aerospace industry, but you don't see that hyped up like say aluminium or titanium are. Steel is actually the best all-round material to make bicycle frames out of, but you don't see 'aerospace steel' stickers on bikes.
 
The whole marketing thing around materials exists in many product sectors. I ride bikes, and there is an awful lot of utter BS in that industry. For a start, the term 'aerospace' when referring to a particular material or alloy etc. This is a nonsense designed to 'sex up' the otherwise pretty mundane material. I mean, wood is used in the aerospace industry, but you don't see that hyped up like say aluminium or titanium are. Steel is actually the best all-round material to make bicycle frames out of, but you don't see 'aerospace steel' stickers on bikes.
Point well taken.

When I was heavily into road biking in the 60s-90s, steel was still the frame meterial of choice. Reynolds and Columbus were the two major makes, manufacturing frames, forks and stays using double butted steel tubing. Those of us riding ten speed double butted tubing bikes considered ourselves to be riding the ultimate. Along with Camgagnolo components (from the locked jewelry case) of course.

Fly fishing, arguably the most traditional form of angling, has not been spared. When I started in the early 80s, graphite had emerged as the dominant material. We had arrived - or had we? Each manufacturer had a top level series of rods in its line up. This was the ultimate fly fishing tool. Until next year, when there was a new ultimate. Last years ultimate was now second level. Even with the level of GAS I was experiencing, I pretty quickly figured this out. I haven't bought a new rod in years. The fish do not appear to care.

The responses to my OP have been most interesting. Since magnesium alloy is almost universally the favored body/frame material, selected by manufacturers, all of whom are intensely competing with one another, and competition improves the breed, magnesium alloy seems to have proven itself for this purpose.

So far, so good, up to a point.

What has also emerged is the role of engineering, beyond jsut material choice. One poster exemplified this using Nikon. The D700 was/is regarded as a rugged, extremely well engineered machine that now enjoys iconic status. (Full disclosure; I have one). But then some succeeding models have displayed a number of defects, including body/frame cracking.

What I derive from this is that while material choice (in this case magnesium alloy) may be most suitable for the task at hand, the indispensable element is engineering.
 
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Aircraft have been down this path, too, adding Titanium, steel, and even wood into the mix. Titanium is denser than both aluminum and magnesium, but it has a high strength to weight ratio, so less of it is required for the same strength. That, and its corrosion and heat resistance make it attractive for aircraft.
 
How about nitinol? Drop your camera and dent it? No problem. Just heat it up and its former shape is restored. :)
 
Why the Switch from Aluminum to Magnesium? There's more to it than simply which is stronger.

In the early days of digital photography, manufacturers moved from aluminum to magnesium alloys for professional camera bodies for several key reasons:
  • Weight vs. Strength: Magnesium alloys offer a higher strength-to-weight ratio than aluminum alloys. This allows manufacturers to build lighter camera bodies without compromising structural integrity. For professional DSLR and mirrorless cameras, weight reduction is a critical factor, particularly for long shooting sessions.
  • Rigidity and Vibration Dampening: Magnesium has better vibration absorption and rigidity than aluminum, which contributes to better handling and reduces unwanted resonance when shooting.
  • Electromagnetic Shielding: Magnesium provides better electromagnetic interference (EMI) shielding, which helps protect the camera’s sensitive electronics.
  • Thermal Conductivity: While both materials conduct heat well, magnesium dissipates it more efficiently, helping to manage sensor and processor heat buildup in professional bodies.
  • Corrosion Resistance: Magnesium alloys (when properly treated) can offer better corrosion resistance than untreated aluminum, though this advantage depends on coatings and finishing processes.
Why Are Some Manufacturers Returning to Aluminum?

Leica and Sigma’s decision to use machined aluminum instead of cast magnesium could be due to several factors:
  • Machining Feasibility: Magnesium is difficult to machine due to its flammability risk in fine particulate form. Thus, most magnesium components are die-cast rather than CNC machined. Aluminum, on the other hand, is much more suitable for precision CNC machining, making it ideal for high-end, limited-production cameras.
  • Aesthetic and Manufacturing Control: Machined aluminum provides a premium finish that appeals to the luxury market (e.g., Leica), whereas cast magnesium requires additional finishing steps.
  • Cost and Production Efficiency: While casting magnesium is cost-effective for mass production, machining aluminum allows for small-batch, high-precision production—something that fits Leica’s and Sigma’s niche market strategies.
  • Structural Benefits of Machining: Machined aluminum bodies can be more robust than cast magnesium ones because the casting process can introduce small voids or inconsistencies in the material. However, this advantage is largely irrelevant in cameras since their structural failure is more likely to occur at joints, lens mounts, or in response to impact forces that damage internal components.
Strength Considerations: Why Magnesium for Pro Cameras?
  • While machined aluminum is stronger than cast magnesium, the strength comparison isn’t so simple. Magnesium alloy castings used in pro camera bodies are engineered for optimal weight, rigidity, and durability.
  • Professional bodies prioritize resistance to impact and deformation over sheer material strength—magnesium offers an excellent balance.
  • Magnesium bodies are typically reinforced internally with other materials (e.g., polycarbonate elements) to absorb shock from impacts, reducing stress on internal components.
Bottom Line: What Matters for Camera Construction?
  • Pro bodies (e.g., Nikon Z9, Canon R3, Sony A1) use magnesium because of its excellent balance of weight, strength, rigidity, and EMI shielding.
  • Premium, small-batch cameras (e.g., Leica and Sigma fp) use machined aluminum for its precision, aesthetic appeal, and production flexibility.
  • Strength alone isn’t the main concern for cameras—rigidity, weight, machining feasibility, and heat management are just as important.
Thus, the choice between magnesium and aluminum isn’t just about strength—it’s about the right material for the right application in camera design. I would not base a camera purchase decision on whether the body was aluminum or magnesium. I just want to know that the camera can hold up.
Surely it's a magnesium alloy, such as magnesium aluminium.
 
Before this gets shut off I'd like to say, it's been educational. Manganese is even lighter than aluminum? Wow. I remember picking up my first little piece of Aluminum at age 12. It seemed weightless. It's been six decades since that observation, and I still remember it. For some reason, the kids I knew had some idea that manganese would burn blue if lit. We were using aluminum tent stakes and for some reason they thought it was manganese. I probably wouldn't know the difference.
 
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Before this gets shut off I'd like to say, it's been educational. Manganese is even lighter than aluminum? Wow. I remember picking up my first little piece of Aluminum at age 12. It seemed weightless. It's been six decades since that observation, and I still remember it. For some reason, the kids I knew had some idea that manganese would burn blue if lit. We were using aluminum tent stakes and for some reason they thought it was manganese. I probably wouldn't know the difference.
Did you mean manganese? We do use manganese alloys.

Or perhaps magnesium?
 
Why the Switch from Aluminum to Magnesium? There's more to it than simply which is stronger.

In the early days of digital photography, manufacturers moved from aluminum to magnesium alloys for professional camera bodies for several key reasons:
  • Weight vs. Strength: Magnesium alloys offer a higher strength-to-weight ratio than aluminum alloys. This allows manufacturers to build lighter camera bodies without compromising structural integrity. For professional DSLR and mirrorless cameras, weight reduction is a critical factor, particularly for long shooting sessions.
  • Rigidity and Vibration Dampening: Magnesium has better vibration absorption and rigidity than aluminum, which contributes to better handling and reduces unwanted resonance when shooting.
  • Electromagnetic Shielding: Magnesium provides better electromagnetic interference (EMI) shielding, which helps protect the camera’s sensitive electronics.
  • Thermal Conductivity: While both materials conduct heat well, magnesium dissipates it more efficiently, helping to manage sensor and processor heat buildup in professional bodies.
  • Corrosion Resistance: Magnesium alloys (when properly treated) can offer better corrosion resistance than untreated aluminum, though this advantage depends on coatings and finishing processes.
Why Are Some Manufacturers Returning to Aluminum?

Leica and Sigma’s decision to use machined aluminum instead of cast magnesium could be due to several factors:
  • Machining Feasibility: Magnesium is difficult to machine due to its flammability risk in fine particulate form. Thus, most magnesium components are die-cast rather than CNC machined. Aluminum, on the other hand, is much more suitable for precision CNC machining, making it ideal for high-end, limited-production cameras.
  • Aesthetic and Manufacturing Control: Machined aluminum provides a premium finish that appeals to the luxury market (e.g., Leica), whereas cast magnesium requires additional finishing steps.
  • Cost and Production Efficiency: While casting magnesium is cost-effective for mass production, machining aluminum allows for small-batch, high-precision production—something that fits Leica’s and Sigma’s niche market strategies.
  • Structural Benefits of Machining: Machined aluminum bodies can be more robust than cast magnesium ones because the casting process can introduce small voids or inconsistencies in the material. However, this advantage is largely irrelevant in cameras since their structural failure is more likely to occur at joints, lens mounts, or in response to impact forces that damage internal components.
Strength Considerations: Why Magnesium for Pro Cameras?
  • While machined aluminum is stronger than cast magnesium, the strength comparison isn’t so simple. Magnesium alloy castings used in pro camera bodies are engineered for optimal weight, rigidity, and durability.
  • Professional bodies prioritize resistance to impact and deformation over sheer material strength—magnesium offers an excellent balance.
  • Magnesium bodies are typically reinforced internally with other materials (e.g., polycarbonate elements) to absorb shock from impacts, reducing stress on internal components.
Bottom Line: What Matters for Camera Construction?
  • Pro bodies (e.g., Nikon Z9, Canon R3, Sony A1) use magnesium because of its excellent balance of weight, strength, rigidity, and EMI shielding.
  • Premium, small-batch cameras (e.g., Leica and Sigma fp) use machined aluminum for its precision, aesthetic appeal, and production flexibility.
  • Strength alone isn’t the main concern for cameras—rigidity, weight, machining feasibility, and heat management are just as important.
Thus, the choice between magnesium and aluminum isn’t just about strength—it’s about the right material for the right application in camera design. I would not base a camera purchase decision on whether the body was aluminum or magnesium. I just want to know that the camera can hold up.
Surely it's a magnesium alloy, such as magnesium aluminium.
Yes. Pure magnesium is not suitable to make mechanical components, it needs to be in an alloy with another metal (generally aluminium).

Magnesium - Aluminium alloy is used in a lot of applications because it doesn't corrode, and is stronger than both magnesium or aluminium by itself (at the cost of a lower ductility, so it breaks before it bends)
 
Before this gets shut off I'd like to say, it's been educational. Manganese is even lighter than aluminum? Wow. I remember picking up my first little piece of Aluminum at age 12. It seemed weightless. It's been six decades since that observation, and I still remember it. For some reason, the kids I knew had some idea that manganese would burn blue if lit. We were using aluminum tent stakes and for some reason they thought it was manganese. I probably wouldn't know the difference.
Manganese is quite a bit denser than aluminum. Magnesium is what is being discussed.
 
Before this gets shut off I'd like to say, it's been educational. Manganese is even lighter than aluminum? Wow. I remember picking up my first little piece of Aluminum at age 12. It seemed weightless. It's been six decades since that observation, and I still remember it. For some reason, the kids I knew had some idea that manganese would burn blue if lit. We were using aluminum tent stakes and for some reason they thought it was manganese. I probably wouldn't know the difference.
Manganese is quite a bit denser than aluminum. Magnesium is what is being discussed.
Going back to the OP it is a discussion about Magnesium vs Aluminum.

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Tom
 
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Well, magnesium is lots lighter than aluminum. Its density is 1.7 while the density of aluminum is 2.7. That's its main advantage. It's also much more brittle than aluminum. That's its main disadvantage. Now, for a camera body, ductility isn't that much help. If your camera body bends instead of cracks, it's still no good. Magnesium and aluminum have similar moduli of elasticity, or stiffness. So there's nothing to choose from there.

Alloys of either metal, if properly handled, are very stable dimensionally. So they can make good camera bodies. While wrought alloys for both metals are stronger than cast alloys, I don't see an advantage because, as I said, bending is not better than cracking for a camera body.

Magnesium is horrible for corrosion resistance. It completely dissolves in sea water. But I think that manufacturers coat it well enough for the things that cameras go through. Anodized aluminum is quite good in this respect.

I can see making premium camera bodies out of magnesium because you save a couple of ounces without compromising performance.

For reference, I am a degreed metallurgist who worked in a foundry making aluminum and magnesium castings for 10 years.
Presumably both are alloys with the named element as a major component ?

Don
 
Well, magnesium is lots lighter than aluminum. Its density is 1.7 while the density of aluminum is 2.7. That's its main advantage. It's also much more brittle than aluminum. That's its main disadvantage. Now, for a camera body, ductility isn't that much help. If your camera body bends instead of cracks, it's still no good. Magnesium and aluminum have similar moduli of elasticity, or stiffness. So there's nothing to choose from there.

Alloys of either metal, if properly handled, are very stable dimensionally. So they can make good camera bodies. While wrought alloys for both metals are stronger than cast alloys, I don't see an advantage because, as I said, bending is not better than cracking for a camera body.

Magnesium is horrible for corrosion resistance. It completely dissolves in sea water. But I think that manufacturers coat it well enough for the things that cameras go through. Anodized aluminum is quite good in this respect.

I can see making premium camera bodies out of magnesium because you save a couple of ounces without compromising performance.

For reference, I am a degreed metallurgist who worked in a foundry making aluminum and magnesium castings for 10 years.
Presumably both are alloys with the named element as a major component ?

Don
Yes. Most aluminum die castings are made of alloy A380, which contains 4% Cu and 8% Si among other things. Most magnesium castings are AZ91 which has 9% Al and 1% Zn. For both aluminum and magnesium, the pure metals are very soft and generally useless for structural purposes.
 
Well, magnesium is lots lighter than aluminum. Its density is 1.7 while the density of aluminum is 2.7. That's its main advantage. It's also much more brittle than aluminum. That's its main disadvantage. Now, for a camera body, ductility isn't that much help. If your camera body bends instead of cracks, it's still no good. Magnesium and aluminum have similar moduli of elasticity, or stiffness. So there's nothing to choose from there.

Alloys of either metal, if properly handled, are very stable dimensionally. So they can make good camera bodies. While wrought alloys for both metals are stronger than cast alloys, I don't see an advantage because, as I said, bending is not better than cracking for a camera body.

Magnesium is horrible for corrosion resistance. It completely dissolves in sea water. But I think that manufacturers coat it well enough for the things that cameras go through. Anodized aluminum is quite good in this respect.

I can see making premium camera bodies out of magnesium because you save a couple of ounces without compromising performance.

For reference, I am a degreed metallurgist who worked in a foundry making aluminum and magnesium castings for 10 years.
Presumably both are alloys with the named element as a major component ?

Don
Yes. Most aluminum die castings are made of alloy A380, which contains 4% Cu and 8% Si among other things. Most magnesium castings are AZ91 which has 9% Al and 1% Zn. For both aluminum and magnesium, the pure metals are very soft and generally useless for structural purposes.
 
The Sigma CEO Yamaki always seems able to offer reasonable explanations and assessments even though he is very skilled at not divulging plans. It would be interesting to hear his perspective on the choice of milled aluminum vs die cast magnesium alloys for his latest camera body.
Probably strength and less micro-defects compromising the material when poured.

If fancy it enough, Sigma could do something similar to what jet engine blade manufacturers do by casting a piece of metal for one blade and then cooling it correctly so that it forms a single crystal structure as it cools. Then the stuff gets machined which results in the part being much stronger than a simple cast piece with irregular lattice, since there are no crystal lattice defects = future points of stress/failure.
 

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