Quitting Microsoft going to Mac Mini 4, Now - Software?

bakubo said:

Glen Barrington said:

Is this something a newbie will need to worry about? If I'm going to have to do any troubleshooting, i might as well stick with Linux.

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No, you don't need to worry about it as long as you don't use LrC/Ps -- and even then it is just the AI denoise which is slow, otherwise LrC/Ps run fine. And the LrC/Ps AI denoise still works on Apple, just slower because it cannot use the NE.

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Bakubo, you make a good point that's worth further consideration on Glen's part.

For AI Denoise performance, more GPU cores will speed up processing. When I ran benchmark tests about a year ago, my M1 Max Studio, with double the RAM and GPU cores, did Denoise in 1/3 the time and 1:1 previews in 2/3 the time of my M1 Mac mini.

OTOH, DxO's DeepPRIME XD makes use of the Neural Engine, enabling it to run in just 16s on the entry-level M1 mini vs. AI Denoise in 40s on the Studio. I'll have to retest AI Denoise vs. DeepPRIME XD2s on my Studio to see what's changed, but it seems DeepPRIME is just faster, especially on modest M-series Macs.

Thanks to the doubling of throughput in the new M4 chip's Neural Engine, I expect the M4 Mac mini to be another tremendous bang-for-the-buck value when it comes to DeepPRIME processing. You can use some of the money saved to pay for DxO PhotoLab and still come out ahead. Or, you can throw a lot of money at hardware to get decent performance from AI Denoise. And wait for the Day of Rainbows and Butterflies to bring us a non-destructive workflow from Adobe.

bakubo said:

Although it seems from what DXO, Topaz, and Adobe has said that it is a Neural Engine problem there is very little info about it. All we know is what I wrote already from the comments that the 3 companies have made in the past. It is possible that other companies such as On1, etc. that have AI denoising also have problems, but I have not followed them.

If you don't use Lightroom and Photoshop and their AI denoise then it won't matter to you. As I already wrote, DXO said the problem showed up when Ventura came out in October 2022 so for awhile they told their customers to turn off the Neural Engine and only use the GPU. Then later they came out with a new release and said they had come up with a workaround (probably some sort of kludge) to allow the very fast Neural Engine to be used again even on Ventura and releases after it. And even with the workaround it is pretty widely said that DXO gets the best results. Topaz has said less about all this, just that they had discovered problems with it and separately they have said they use it so probably they have also found a way to mitigate the problems.

Adobe first said they were using the Nvidia Tensor cores and Apple Neural Engine in their AI denoise when it first came out. Then not long after they said they had to disable the NE code and only use the GPU because of quality problems with the NE. Then last year Adobe announced they could finally use the NE and it really speeded up denoise a whole lot, as people on these forums have confirmed -- much faster. Then after just a few months Adobe again said they had to disable the NE code because they found there were still problems with the NE. That is how things stand today.

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Thanks for this excellent history lesson.

bakubo said:

It is unknown why small, much less rich companies such as DXO and Topaz are able to workaround the NE problems and did it long ago in a short time, but big, rich Adobe for years still can't or won't.

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I suspect Adobe just has too much on its plate. 18 years later, Lightroom still has keyboard shortcuts that change from mode to mode, no obvious visual cues as to what mode you're in, and no way to customize the keyboard shortcuts. Also, Photoshop can adjust UI size to match high-rez displays, but Lightroom can't. TBF, neither can PhotoLab, so I just squint at my 32" 4K screen when reading UI text. Maybe in another 5-10 years...

As you can tell, I have a love/hate relationship with Lightroom. I appreciate its Swiss Army Knife versatility, but, particularly as a former Aperture devotée, I hate all the little bad choices and oversights that went into its design and make me swear at the screen on a regular basis. If any other app offered decent DAM, HDR and pano merging, smart sharpening and lossy compressed DNGs on export, I'd ditch Adobe in a heartbeat.

--
Event professional for 20+ years, travel & landscape enthusiast for 30+, stills-only.
http://jacquescornell.photography
http://happening.photos

Hi Glen,

I’ve been on Mac for many years and I’ve tried many tools but not all of them. I often shoot 60 GB or more at a time; my camera is 45 megapixels. The higher the camera resolution, the harder the image editor is going to work.



I don’t use a DAM for several reasons. Mainly, I worry about future compatibility. I want to be able to access my files in five years without being tied to any software. So my DAM is the file system, and I create a folder for each event I’ve shot and it is dated and goes into a folder for the year. When I shoot a lot I create folders with each month inside the year. So my top-level is just 2017, 2018, like that.



The next problem is that Macs don’t have a lot of internal storage. So I bought a 4 TB Thunderbolt SSD. I do my edits using the internal SSD and then I move the folder to the external drive’s Year folder. In each folder, I have a sub-folder called jpegs. My RAW editor is set to export to the jpegs sub-folder of the original image folder. Easy-Peasy.



On top of that scheme, I have about 12 TB of Synology network-attached storage. This holds a backup of all of my photos and it is a Time Machine backup of the Mac. So the photos aren’t part of the Time Machine backup; I back them up to the NAS manually. I don’t have to, but that’s how I like it. I have a 12 TB USB drive attached to my Synology and it automatically backs up to that as well. I out this together over time, not all at once.

For the software, I *love* DxO PhotoLab. You take the card out of your camera, pop it into a card reader and copy the folder of RAW photos to your internal drive. Then you open that folder in PhotoLab and it puts up thumbnails so you can cull through your images, rate them; add keywords and all that stuff. The editor puts in color and lens corrections automatically. It does the normal RAW editor stuff, like global exposure, WB, color and noise reduction, but it also does cropping/scaling and a LOT of local adjustments and watermarking. For me, this means I go straight from RAW to finished photo with DxO. I don’t need to run the images through Photoshop or Affinity. Plus, no annual subscription.



I think the editor is a personal decision and once you get acclimated to a given editor, you like it more than others. So there are Lightroom fans, C1 fans, DxO fans and so forth and I don’t think anyone is especially better than another, but people like what they use.

Glen Barrington said:

But I just saw a youTube video on PIxelmator. It sounds like a possible replacement for Affinity Photo. Is this correct? would it be viable for my needs re: my OP?

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I have not used Pixelmator, but my understanding is that it is a Photoshop type of bit mapped editor designed only for Mac. I have heard about their other product called Photomator which, I think, is supposed to be more of a Lightroom type of product just for Macs:

https://www.pixelmator.com/photomator/

I do not have any personal experience with either of them, but at least some of the things I have heard and seen in videos they seem to be very good and designed to work and look just like Mac software since there is no Windows versions. I have heard they are very fast and designed to take full advantage of the Apple Silicon hardware. You can find youtube videos, etc. about the software. The price is low for them and you can get them from Apple App store.

The big downside to me is the fact that they are Mac only. For years I have used LrC/Ps, but 99.5% LrC. I have Macs and Windows PCs. My LrC catalog works on both so it is very easy for me to interchangeably use either one. I don't want to be totally tied to just Macs or just PCs. It is bad enough that I am tied to Adobe. I don't want to lose all my work (Develop module editing, Book module books, captions, keywords, star ratings, etc.) by making a big switch to some other software -- which would also then tie you into that software. You seem to be fine about leaving ACDSee behind and all the work you have done in it for years though so this may be a non-issue for you.

Glen Barrington said:

Thanks to all who responded, so far!

But I just saw a youTube video on PIxelmator. It sounds like a possible replacement for Affinity Photo. Is this correct? would it be viable for my needs re: my OP?

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I have never used it, but as a point of interest and FYI, Pixelmator was recently purchased by Apple. I have no insight as to what this may mean for the Pixelmator brand, features and functions, but I personally would be hesitant to spend money on it at this time. YMMV of course.

Apple buys Pixelmator

Macrumors discussion

--
The grass isn't always greener, unless you shoot Velvia.

Glen Barrington said:

Microsoft and I are simply not headed in the same direction. I've looked at Linux, and while it'll do what I NEED it to do, I don't believe my wife will ever warm up to it. I think she will be happier in an eco-system like Mac or Windows, and Windows has shredded my confidence in it. I've purchased one Mac Mini 4 to experiment with, And assuming it works out, I will buy another, or perhaps a more advanced Mac product.

Click to expand...

Once you go Mac, you’ll never go back!

Glen Barrington said:

I'm an m43s photographer. I'm not gonna argue that with anyone. It works for me and my gear is paid for. My question at the moment is about photo software. Does anyone know how well OM Workspace works with Mac?

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Nope.

Glen Barrington said:

Are there any software titles that are a bit problematic on the Mac? Any that might be problematic on a 16 GB ram on Mac Mini 4? I'm planning moving my home folder to a high-speed 2 TB external drive. This works reasonably well with Linux, and my research indicates Mac and Linux clearly share a Unix heritage.

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16GB RAM is a bit meager, but if you keep a lot of free space on your boot drive it shouldn’t be a problem. Apple says 10% minimum. I try for 20%.

Glen Barrington said:

I've been a happy ACDSee Ultimate user on Windows for many years…

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Forget that. I’ve been using Capture One Pro for quite a while and have been pretty happy with it. They offer a “perpetual” license with no upgrades, so you can skip versions and upgrade when it seems worthwhile. (My CAD software is $1000 per year! UGH)

It handles RAW files very well. I actually prefer the look of RAW files to JPEGs, so there’s that. The sharpening and noise reduction tools are excellent. I use mainly it for cataloguing photos, DAM in other words. You can use it like Lightroom with a giant catalogue if you prefer. It’s definitely worth a look.

Glen Barrington said:

The other software I've been considering is On1, DXO Photolab, and Affinity Photo, all based on my Windows experiences. I will need a DAM with Affinity, and I 'kinda sorta' plan on Using OM Workspace for that, the Raw development between Workspace and Affinity Photo are roughly similar (Very good on both, IMO). I know in the past, the DAMs on On1, OM Workspace, and DXO were more like photo managers with a couple of nice extras. ACDSee is the standout DAM of the 5 titles I have mentioned I suspect.

Any insight you guys can provide on my plans would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

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At this point, I’m dumping Adobe. I use Acrobat Pro, Photoshop and Illustrator ( Lightroom rarely) and am loathe to pay $700 per year for the honor to use them.
I’m looking at the Affinity Suite ($165 perpetual!) and PDF Expert as replacements. They both have either subscription or perpetual licenses.

I’ve been a Mac user forever and there’s a lot of great software. Gaming? Not so much.

The free Apple software is a good place to start.

I have very little problem leaving old work behind! Based on the quality of the photo, I generally save "done" photos as either jpeg or tif. And once they are done I'll either use them as-is or return to the ORF and start over.

bakubo said:

Jacques Cornell said:

Zeee said:

I should point out that bakubo said in another thread that the person that is getting 8 seconds on his studio ultra with 64GB RAM has 60 cores. That is without the Neural Engine working. Another consideration I will add to my desktop replacement.

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It would be interesting to compare performance of DxO DeepPRIME on a $599 M4 Mac mini, with its 38-teraflop Neural Engine and 10 GPU cores to Adobe AI Denoise on the $3000+ Ultra with its two 18-teraflop Neural Engines and 60 GPU cores. Betcha the latter won't be 5x faster.

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Yes, that would be interesting. Does anyone have a link to the raw file that was used? I could try it on my M2 Pro 12/19 MBP 32gb to get the timing in the current LrC. Also, I could try it on the current Topaz Photo AI and Denoise AI.

By the way, in the U.S. the price of an M2 Ultra 24/60/32 Studio 64gb/1tb (base model of M2 Ultra Studio) is $3999, not $3000.

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I was thinking used, and I put a "+" after "$3000".

bakubo said:

The M2 Ultra 24/76/32 Studio 64gb/1tb is $4999. As you say, the M4 10/10/16 Mini 16gb/256gb is $599 (although I have seen it for less sometimes on Amazon, etc.).

Actually, it would be fun and informative to have a thread with a link to a few high ISO raw files from several different brand cameras and we could all compare the timing using various Macs and various software. And then everyone report back their timing results.

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This is why I use DPR's Studio Scene files across most of the ISO range for my own testing.

StephaneB said:

Hi

I am a former ACDSee user, I also have extensive experience with CaptureOne, Adobe Lightroom and Photoshop and now DXO Photolab is my main tool.

I have 2 Macs: an M1 Mini with 16GB RAM and 512GB SSD and an M2 Pro MacBook Pro, also with 16GB RAM and 521GB SSD.

Firstly, 16GB RAM is absolutely enough for photography. I invite you to watch this video , my experience is identical, I never notice any slowdown. I have no idea how much swapping is going on but the Mac reads and writes from SSD at 3GB per second, making the issue irrelevant in my opinion.

Regarding disk space it is all a matter of how you organise your storage. I have a NAS and I put as much as I can on it. My 512GB SSD has a usable capacity of 494GB, of which 406 is available.

For the CPU, I find the M2 Pro feels marginally faster than the M1. The M2 Pro slaughters the M1 in benchmarks, but in real use I cannot say it makes a huge difference for me. I use both very happily. It might come from the fact that DXO does use the Neural Engine, which maybe lessens the perceived difference between the two.

To put things in perspective, when I got he M1 Mac mini, I had a PC with the following components: AMD Ryzen 8 cores 16 threads, 32GB RAM, 1TB MVME SSD and an AMD Radeon Pro graphic card. In Lightroom and Photoshop, the M1 was way faster. Not a subtle difference like between the M1 and M2, it really felt like a new generation of hardware.

I would expect a current Mac Mini M4 to be a blast.

Software-wise, Lightroom and Photoshop are the best in my opinion, but I have decided to stop using the subscription, mainly because I don't want to have to continue spending if I ever go through a rough patch.

Of the alternatives, Capture One and DXO are both of very high quality, with different strengths. In the end, I went with DXO and am very happy with it. I probably would be happy if I had chosen Capture One too.

There is the fact that Capture One pushes more towards the subscription model that DXO, who have no subscription in sight.

Capture One subscription model is more honest than Adobe's. It gives you a progressing discount on a perpetual license with each year you keep the subscription. After 5 years you receive a free perpetual license that you can use as a backup plan if and when you want to stop using the subscription.

Good luck with the decisions

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I think you meant to reply to someone else.

Zeee said:

bakubo said:

Jacques Cornell said:

Zeee said:

When Adobe turned on the Neural engine for that brief time my M1 dropped from 85 to 23. Hope they can resolve the shadow issue but they need Apple for that I think and they won't move fast. For now I'll take quality over quantity.

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What? Is Adobe back to not using ANE? Jeez. DxO has sailed through the chip & OS transitions with just one little update that took only a few days to drop.

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All the troubles with the Neural Engine for years is strange. Apple is totally silent about it. Adobe, DXO, and Topaz have all mentioned it, but have mostly been pretty tight lipped about it. Probably in order to not offend the mammoth Apple.

DXO said a year or two ago they had come up with some sort of workaround in order to use the NE so were able to speed up a lot after having to stop using it for awhile. Topaz has not clearly said much other than it causes problems and that they use it -- maybe they have come up with some way to mitigate the NE problems also. Adobe doesn't say much either, other than they couldn't use it, then last year for a short time they could use it, and then reversed course and said they couldn't use it. I don't know why DXO and Topaz were able to come up with a way to mitigate the NE problems, but big, rich Adobe cannot.

DXO said the NE problem appeared in Ventura (October 2022) and was not in Big Sur and Monterey.

The Nvidia NPU (aka Tensor cores) work well though and are very fast. Adobe can use them, but that is just for Windows users.

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Thanks. I knew it was just not Adobe that was affected and Apple is part of the issue. There were many discussions about that.

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Missed a few threads. Busy day. Claims made about overnight fixes. DXO has been at it for many years and it was a colour tinting/shifting issues so I'm not surprised then eventually got to it.

copied from link

Here is a long thread on the DXO forum that has been going for 6+ months about color problems when using the Neural Engine (faster), but not when using the GPU (slower):


Source


Adobe did not like the IQ in the deep shadows. There are some complaints on other sites that some did not notice it. Others wanted to be their choice to use it. Turn it off or on as needed.

I can see it being a productivity issue. There is a difference between a $1,000 and $,4000 computer for the RAM and cores. But if you are earning while an extra $3,000 every 2 to 3 or 3 to 4 years is not inexpensive for a turn around, it should be part of the business plan and is a write off. This is of course dependant on the type of business.

I had a link to someone that had a 16" M1 MacBook Pro with loaded RAM and cores was getting 10 seconds. Lost that one.

I'll take the more natural look and wait patiently for Adobe to correct it. As a hobby shooter I have time. Denoise was cut in half with the new MacBook Pro. DXO DPXD and Photo AI were taking just long but that was 2 years ago. I had no complaints back then either.

Love the new MacBook. When in LrC pressing the f key it's so much easier to see everything. Two more weeks to Portugal and my birding sites. I'm going to more urban and landscape B&W work this year.

jeffharris said:

Glen Barrington said:

Microsoft and I are simply not headed in the same direction. I've looked at Linux, and while it'll do what I NEED it to do, I don't believe my wife will ever warm up to it. I think she will be happier in an eco-system like Mac or Windows, and Windows has shredded my confidence in it. I've purchased one Mac Mini 4 to experiment with, And assuming it works out, I will buy another, or perhaps a more advanced Mac product.

Click to expand...

Once you go Mac, you’ll never go back!

jeffharris said:

I'm an m43s photographer. I'm not gonna argue that with anyone. It works for me and my gear is paid for. My question at the moment is about photo software. Does anyone know how well OM Workspace works with Mac?

Click to expand...

Nope.

jeffharris said:

Are there any software titles that are a bit problematic on the Mac? Any that might be problematic on a 16 GB ram on Mac Mini 4? I'm planning moving my home folder to a high-speed 2 TB external drive. This works reasonably well with Linux, and my research indicates Mac and Linux clearly share a Unix heritage.

Click to expand...

16GB RAM is a bit meager, but if you keep a lot of free space on your boot drive it shouldn’t be a problem. Apple says 10% minimum. I try for 20%.

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That I didn't know. I knew it was not good to push it to the max whatever you use. Adobe also recommends 20%. Unofficial rule of thumb is 100GB. My storage has never pushed into that 100GB regardless. That's good to know as a general statement.

jeffharris said:

jeffharris said:

I've been a happy ACDSee Ultimate user on Windows for many years…

Click to expand...

Forget that. I’ve been using Capture One Pro for quite a while and have been pretty happy with it. They offer a “perpetual” license with no upgrades, so you can skip versions and upgrade when it seems worthwhile. (My CAD software is $1000 per year! UGH)

It handles RAW files very well. I actually prefer the look of RAW files to JPEGs, so there’s that. The sharpening and noise reduction tools are excellent. I use mainly it for cataloguing photos, DAM in other words. You can use it like Lightroom with a giant catalogue if you prefer. It’s definitely worth a look.

jeffharris said:

The other software I've been considering is On1, DXO Photolab, and Affinity Photo, all based on my Windows experiences. I will need a DAM with Affinity, and I 'kinda sorta' plan on Using OM Workspace for that, the Raw development between Workspace and Affinity Photo are roughly similar (Very good on both, IMO). I know in the past, the DAMs on On1, OM Workspace, and DXO were more like photo managers with a couple of nice extras. ACDSee is the standout DAM of the 5 titles I have mentioned I suspect.

Any insight you guys can provide on my plans would be greatly appreciated! Thanks!

Click to expand...

At this point, I’m dumping Adobe. I use Acrobat Pro, Photoshop and Illustrator ( Lightroom rarely) and am loathe to pay $700 per year for the honor to use them.
I’m looking at the Affinity Suite ($165 perpetual!) and PDF Expert as replacements. They both have either subscription or perpetual licenses.

I’ve been a Mac user forever and there’s a lot of great software. Gaming? Not so much.

The free Apple software is a good place to start.

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Zeee said:

jeffharris said:

Glen Barrington said:

Microsoft and I are simply not headed in the same direction. I've looked at Linux, and while it'll do what I NEED it to do, I don't believe my wife will ever warm up to it. I think she will be happier in an eco-system like Mac or Windows, and Windows has shredded my confidence in it. I've purchased one Mac Mini 4 to experiment with, And assuming it works out, I will buy another, or perhaps a more advanced Mac product.

Click to expand...

Once you go Mac, you’ll never go back!

Zeee said:

I'm an m43s photographer. I'm not gonna argue that with anyone. It works for me and my gear is paid for. My question at the moment is about photo software. Does anyone know how well OM Workspace works with Mac?

Click to expand...

Nope.

Zeee said:

Are there any software titles that are a bit problematic on the Mac? Any that might be problematic on a 16 GB ram on Mac Mini 4? I'm planning moving my home folder to a high-speed 2 TB external drive. This works reasonably well with Linux, and my research indicates Mac and Linux clearly share a Unix heritage.

Click to expand...

16GB RAM is a bit meager, but if you keep a lot of free space on your boot drive it shouldn’t be a problem. Apple says 10% minimum. I try for 20%.

Click to expand...

That I didn't know. I knew it was not good to push it to the max whatever you use. Adobe also recommends 20%. Unofficial rule of thumb is 100GB. My storage has never pushed into that 100GB regardless. That's good to know as a general statement.

Click to expand...

At some point, I shifted a lot of files off my MacBook Pro SSD to an external RAID to keep space open. My Music Library alone is over 600GB. That was a real waste. Photos, too. I work on them off the external drive. Ones I actually want to use go onto the Mac itself.

It’s a PITA, but Apple internal SSDs are expensive. External storage, not so much.

jeffharris said:

Zeee said:

jeffharris said:

Glen Barrington said:

Microsoft and I are simply not headed in the same direction. I've looked at Linux, and while it'll do what I NEED it to do, I don't believe my wife will ever warm up to it. I think she will be happier in an eco-system like Mac or Windows, and Windows has shredded my confidence in it. I've purchased one Mac Mini 4 to experiment with, And assuming it works out, I will buy another, or perhaps a more advanced Mac product.

Click to expand...

Once you go Mac, you’ll never go back!

jeffharris said:

I'm an m43s photographer. I'm not gonna argue that with anyone. It works for me and my gear is paid for. My question at the moment is about photo software. Does anyone know how well OM Workspace works with Mac?

Click to expand...

Nope.

jeffharris said:

Are there any software titles that are a bit problematic on the Mac? Any that might be problematic on a 16 GB ram on Mac Mini 4? I'm planning moving my home folder to a high-speed 2 TB external drive. This works reasonably well with Linux, and my research indicates Mac and Linux clearly share a Unix heritage.

Click to expand...

16GB RAM is a bit meager, but if you keep a lot of free space on your boot drive it shouldn’t be a problem. Apple says 10% minimum. I try for 20%.

Click to expand...

That I didn't know. I knew it was not good to push it to the max whatever you use. Adobe also recommends 20%. Unofficial rule of thumb is 100GB. My storage has never pushed into that 100GB regardless. That's good to know as a general statement.

Click to expand...

At some point, I shifted a lot of files off my MacBook Pro SSD to an external RAID to keep space open. My Music Library alone is over 600GB. That was a real waste. Photos, too. I work on them off the external drive. Ones I actually want to use go onto the Mac itself.

It’s a PITA, but Apple internal SSDs are expensive. External storage, not so much.

Click to expand...

Yes that is why always spend the money for RAM and processing. My Macs have never had more than 512 SSD. All files on externals drives. Since the SSD is the fastest drive I so import from my desktop into LrC and process from there. When the major editing is complete, using LrC I drag the folder to the external drive. Even with external spinners it's not too bad. One day external SSD's will get less expensive.

Zeee said:

jeffharris said:

Zeee said:

jeffharris said:

Glen Barrington said:

Microsoft and I are simply not headed in the same direction. I've looked at Linux, and while it'll do what I NEED it to do, I don't believe my wife will ever warm up to it. I think she will be happier in an eco-system like Mac or Windows, and Windows has shredded my confidence in it. I've purchased one Mac Mini 4 to experiment with, And assuming it works out, I will buy another, or perhaps a more advanced Mac product.

Click to expand...

Once you go Mac, you’ll never go back!

Zeee said:

I'm an m43s photographer. I'm not gonna argue that with anyone. It works for me and my gear is paid for. My question at the moment is about photo software. Does anyone know how well OM Workspace works with Mac?

Click to expand...

Nope.

Zeee said:

Are there any software titles that are a bit problematic on the Mac? Any that might be problematic on a 16 GB ram on Mac Mini 4? I'm planning moving my home folder to a high-speed 2 TB external drive. This works reasonably well with Linux, and my research indicates Mac and Linux clearly share a Unix heritage.

Click to expand...

16GB RAM is a bit meager, but if you keep a lot of free space on your boot drive it shouldn’t be a problem. Apple says 10% minimum. I try for 20%.

Click to expand...

That I didn't know. I knew it was not good to push it to the max whatever you use. Adobe also recommends 20%. Unofficial rule of thumb is 100GB. My storage has never pushed into that 100GB regardless. That's good to know as a general statement.

Click to expand...

At some point, I shifted a lot of files off my MacBook Pro SSD to an external RAID to keep space open. My Music Library alone is over 600GB. That was a real waste. Photos, too. I work on them off the external drive. Ones I actually want to use go onto the Mac itself.

It’s a PITA, but Apple internal SSDs are expensive. External storage, not so much.

Click to expand...

Yes that is why always spend the money for RAM and processing. My Macs have never had more than 512 SSD. All files on externals drives. Since the SSD is the fastest drive I so import from my desktop into LrC and process from there. When the major editing is complete, using LrC I drag the folder to the external drive. Even with external spinners it's not too bad. One day external SSD's will get less expensive.

Click to expand...

I always get as much RAM as possible that adds a couple of years of usability to any machine.

I had 2TB drives in my last 2 Macs, but was constantly moving stuff on or off them. Drove me nuts. I carry LOTS of design project files (CAD drawing files, PDF specs, photos and whatnot) on my Mac. I’m often digging into old projects to grab details or specs or something. It saves lots of time not having to redraw things, like pocket door or waterproofing details or something like that.

So, I bit the bullet and got a 4TB SSD in my M3 MBP. For me it was totally worth it.

jeffharris said:

Zeee said:

jeffharris said:

Zeee said:

jeffharris said:

Glen Barrington said:

Microsoft and I are simply not headed in the same direction. I've looked at Linux, and while it'll do what I NEED it to do, I don't believe my wife will ever warm up to it. I think she will be happier in an eco-system like Mac or Windows, and Windows has shredded my confidence in it. I've purchased one Mac Mini 4 to experiment with, And assuming it works out, I will buy another, or perhaps a more advanced Mac product.

Click to expand...

Once you go Mac, you’ll never go back!

jeffharris said:

I'm an m43s photographer. I'm not gonna argue that with anyone. It works for me and my gear is paid for. My question at the moment is about photo software. Does anyone know how well OM Workspace works with Mac?

Click to expand...

Nope.

jeffharris said:

Are there any software titles that are a bit problematic on the Mac? Any that might be problematic on a 16 GB ram on Mac Mini 4? I'm planning moving my home folder to a high-speed 2 TB external drive. This works reasonably well with Linux, and my research indicates Mac and Linux clearly share a Unix heritage.

Click to expand...

16GB RAM is a bit meager, but if you keep a lot of free space on your boot drive it shouldn’t be a problem. Apple says 10% minimum. I try for 20%.

Click to expand...

That I didn't know. I knew it was not good to push it to the max whatever you use. Adobe also recommends 20%. Unofficial rule of thumb is 100GB. My storage has never pushed into that 100GB regardless. That's good to know as a general statement.

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At some point, I shifted a lot of files off my MacBook Pro SSD to an external RAID to keep space open. My Music Library alone is over 600GB. That was a real waste. Photos, too. I work on them off the external drive. Ones I actually want to use go onto the Mac itself.

It’s a PITA, but Apple internal SSDs are expensive. External storage, not so much.

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Yes that is why always spend the money for RAM and processing. My Macs have never had more than 512 SSD. All files on externals drives. Since the SSD is the fastest drive I so import from my desktop into LrC and process from there. When the major editing is complete, using LrC I drag the folder to the external drive. Even with external spinners it's not too bad. One day external SSD's will get less expensive.

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I always get as much RAM as possible that adds a couple of years of usability to any machine.

I had 2TB drives in my last 2 Macs, but was constantly moving stuff on or off them. Drove me nuts. I carry LOTS of design project files (CAD drawing files, PDF specs, photos and whatnot) on my Mac. I’m often digging into old projects to grab details or specs or something. It saves lots of time not having to redraw things, like pocket door or waterproofing details or something like that.

So, I bit the bullet and got a 4TB SSD in my M3 MBP. For me it was totally worth it.

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I can see you can justify that.

I have a Mac Mini M2 Pro with 32GB. I usually have lots of apps opened. I looked yesterday and was using 16GB. I also have a MacBook Air with 8GB. Based on this experience and what I've read, I'd aim for 24GB, but 16GB will probably be fine.

Pixelmator is nice and at least when I bought it a one time purchase. But I don't do much editing, so pay attention to other's comments. Pixelmator is Mac only so no compromises in GUI. I've been a Mac user forever, so the apps that try to work on more than one platform are usually frustrating, But you're not likely to notice that. But Apple bought Pixelmator, so probably won't be around forever. The features may make it into Apple products. And it doesn't have a DAM.

Use the Apple Apps (Photos and Preview) for a week or two, then start with demos of other products. It's a lot of work and frustration, but jumping in on one app and then later realizing later isn't good. It will take a while to get used to the OS differences. You may get frustrated with an app but the issue is differences in the OS.

bakubo said:

Jacques Cornell said:

Zeee said:

I should point out that bakubo said in another thread that the person that is getting 8 seconds on his studio ultra with 64GB RAM has 60 cores. That is without the Neural Engine working. Another consideration I will add to my desktop replacement.

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It would be interesting to compare performance of DxO DeepPRIME on a $599 M4 Mac mini, with its 38-teraflop Neural Engine and 10 GPU cores to Adobe AI Denoise on the $3000+ Ultra with its two 18-teraflop Neural Engines and 60 GPU cores. Betcha the latter won't be 5x faster.

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Yes, that would be interesting. Does anyone have a link to the raw file that was used? I could try it on my M2 Pro 12/19 MBP 32gb to get the timing in the current LrC. Also, I could try it on the current Topaz Photo AI and Denoise AI.

By the way, in the U.S. the price of an M2 Ultra 24/60/32 Studio 64gb/1tb (base model of M2 Ultra Studio) is $3999, not $3000. The M2 Ultra 24/76/32 Studio 64gb/1tb is $4999. As you say, the M4 10/10/16 Mini 16gb/256gb is $599 (although I have seen it for less sometimes on Amazon, etc.).

Actually, it would be fun and informative to have a thread with a link to a few high ISO raw files from several different brand cameras and we could all compare the timing using various Macs and various software. And then everyone report back their timing results.

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I have started a new thread and I hope people will contribute to it in order to provide useful info to the community:

AI denoise timings

Glen Barrington said:

Thanks to all who responded, so far!

But I just saw a youTube video on PIxelmator. It sounds like a possible replacement for Affinity Photo. Is this correct? would it be viable for my needs re: my OP?

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Pixelmator is a photoshop/affinity photo replacement.

photomator is more of a Lightroom “replacement” but still has a bit of a way to go. Photomator can manage “local files” but it is limited. It’s really designed to integrate with Apple Photos and use Apple Photos as the DAM

may I suggest you play around with Apple Photos a bit? The Mac version is quite powerful as a DAM and fairly good as a raw developer too. The iOS version is not as capable as a DAM or as a raw developer but it may be all that you want/need.

since Apple abandoned Aperture, I really haven’t spent much time with “Apple Photos” until recently and, it’s not too shabby - and, it’s free.

Photomator is quite good too and you may find that a combo of Apple photos as a DAM and Photomator as the integrated “DAM/Developer frontend” is all you need on Macs and iOS devices.

DM-CO said:

Glen Barrington said:

Thanks to all who responded, so far!

But I just saw a youTube video on PIxelmator. It sounds like a possible replacement for Affinity Photo. Is this correct? would it be viable for my needs re: my OP?

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Pixelmator is a photoshop/affinity photo replacement.

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Pixelmator, of course. Completely forgot about that. Thanks.

DM-CO said:

photomator is more of a Lightroom “replacement” but still has a bit of a way to go. Photomator can manage “local files” but it is limited. It’s really designed to integrate with Apple Photos and use Apple Photos as the DAM

may I suggest you play around with Apple Photos a bit? The Mac version is quite powerful as a DAM and fairly good as a raw developer too. The iOS version is not as capable as a DAM or as a raw developer but it may be all that you want/need.

since Apple abandoned Aperture, I really haven’t spent much time with “Apple Photos” until recently and, it’s not too shabby - and, it’s free.

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It’s not that great, either. I find the tools rather opaque. I like seeing numbers when making corrections, but maybe I just haven’t bothered with Photos much.

DM-CO said:

Photomator is quite good too and you may find that a combo of Apple photos as a DAM and Photomator as the integrated “DAM/Developer frontend” is all you need on Macs and iOS devices.

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I also don’t like the iOS version of Apple Photos. But I was pleasantly surprised by the Mac version. Consider playing around with it. You may be as surprised as I was.

DM-CO said:

I also don’t like the iOS version of Apple Photos. But I was pleasantly surprised by the Mac version. Consider playing around with it. You may be as surprised as I was.

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Thanks, at this point, I don't intend to buy into the entire Apple ecosystem. So far, we really like our Pixel phones and pixel watch. I rarely use the Pixelphone camera in spite of its surprising quality. My wife knows her Pixel camera phone and her photography doesn't ever leave the google environment.

For me, while it would be convenient to be able to edit Pixel phone images, it would not be a deal breaker. So an Apple photos/Something else combo might be workable.