Snapdragon elite thread

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Lots of Copilot+ and AI branding, but it's unclear what the advantages are if any.
I'm still waiting for a satisfactory answer to that question. :-)
It's all about the neural processing and the TOPS...
I call BS on all that AI processing stuff. As far as I can tell, somebody got their marketing message mixed up early on, and now the entire industry is stuck with a misleading measure:

These TPUs or NPUs or whatever you want to call them, were originally introduced in phones as a power-saving measure. Their TOPs are 8-bit integer processing operations per second. GPUs don't typically report that, as it's not interesting for games. But they report FLOPs instead, which is 32-bit floating point operations per second. They can typically swap out each 32-bit float for four 8-bit integers. As such, a measly Nvidia 3060 can easily reach those 50 TOPs required for the Copilot+ branding. Thus the TOPs themselves are not impressive. What is impressive, is that a TPU can do 50 TOPs on a smartphone power budget!

Thus these NPUs enable, for instance, transcribing audio continuously in the background, or recognizing text in a continuous stream of screenshots. These were never before feasible without burning your battery.

But the marketing instead focuses on LLMs, which they call "AI". The NPUs, however, are not practical for LLMs. LLMs are limited by memory, not compute. At least at the moment, a good LLM for conversation or image generation is hundreds of gigabytes in size. Woefully too big for any mobile device, NPU notwithstanding. Microsoft is shipping a few "small" SLMs with their Copilot hardware, but they are so underwhelming as to be useless in practice.

Thus, for the time being, NPUs are a power-saving measure for running small machine learning tasks continuously in the background. "AI" things are computed in the cloud.
Interesting, I had high hopes for the NPU, given the snapdragon Elite GPU is rather weak.
 
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I think everyone can see you have reading comprehension issues.
Do I?
Anyway, pulling from microsoft website:
ah so you take 2 spec sheets without knowing what was the tests performed?
If you have other sources saying that the SP9 is worse than the SP7 in performance and/or battery life, many of us here would like to see it.
It is litterally in my answer to you above. You can check notebookcheck.net which are using reproductible battery test so you compare apple to apple.

You can also take the hundred of reviews and REAL LIFE comparison out there.

Or...you can also believe me as I had pretty much all Surface Pro since the SP3.

Oh, my son had since a few weeks as well a SP11 but with the Elite Plus (not the X). First thing he told me coming from the SP8 : "the battery life is insane on the new Surface".

Again, believe the one that have both and can compare : the snapdragon is giving AT LEAST 50% more battery life in average compared to the Intel variant.

I don't know why you do not want to believe it as pretty much EVERY reviews out there is confirming that.
 
At the moment, it seems that AMD built the best laptop chip this year. Which is phenomenal, since the last few years arguably didn't have any very good laptop chips at all. And the Snapdragon chip still isn't bad at all, and the upcoming Intel chip will probably be reasonable as well.
Are we speaking of the same AMD chip? The one that consume around 70% MORE in average than the snapdragon?

Issue with Intel (or even AMD) chip was not the performance but performance for what which lead to poor battery life, much more heating and drop of performance unplugged.

Snapdragon is not for gaming laptop that are heavy, hot and lasting 3h in real use. That is not the same usage.

It seems so far that Qualcomm will have no competition at least for one year or more.
 
Today I visited Best Buy to look at Snapdragon laptops. For me, Surface Pro 11 is a non-starter because it requires $190 add-on keyboard, which feels flimsy and not good for typing.

Surface laptop is about the same price and includes a fairly nice keyboard. Not only that, it's available with a larger 15" screen for about $200 more. Surface Studio costs more.
Obviously, if you want a laptop...the Surface Pro makes no sense. The value proposition of the Surface Pro is that it is a laptop AND a tablet, saving you space, money, weight and allowing you to be the most flexible possible (editing raw photo on PC grade software in tablet mode with touch to zoom/pan or pen to draw masks and be super precise with the sliders).

That is unique form factor and the reason why it is so successful for some but if you do not see the value for it, for sure buy a laptop (and a tablet).

The Flex Keyboard is still very expensive these days but it is a significant step up compared to the Surface Keyboard: stiffer, pen always accessible, can be used in BT put on the side for keyboard shortcut with tablet close to you, haptic touchpad. Honestly, nothing come close to a SP11 + Flex keyboard for 1500-1600€. It is THAT good.
 
Interesting, I had high hopes for the NPU, given the snapdragon Elite GPU is rather weak.
Yes, I found the Adreno a bit disappointing. That was one of several factors that made me decide it wasn't time for me to buy a Snapdragon laptop. I expect we'll see much higher graphics performance from future designs.
 
Today I visited Best Buy to look at Snapdragon laptops. For me, Surface Pro 11 is a non-starter because it requires $190 add-on keyboard, which feels flimsy and not good for typing.

Surface laptop is about the same price and includes a fairly nice keyboard. Not only that, it's available with a larger 15" screen for about $200 more. Surface Studio costs more.
Obviously, if you want a laptop...the Surface Pro makes no sense. The value proposition of the Surface Pro is that it is a laptop AND a tablet, saving you space, money, weight and allowing you to be the most flexible possible (editing raw photo on PC grade software in tablet mode with touch to zoom/pan or pen to draw masks and be super precise with the sliders).
The Surface Pro tablet (fondleslab ®) weighs more than Surface Laptop 13", 3.68 vs 2.96 lbs, is similar size, and costs more with keyboard included. So much for space, money, weight.

Surface Laptop Studio has similar tablet capability but weighs and costs more. It looks like a nice machine especially for artists.
That is unique form factor and the reason why it is so successful for some but if you do not see the value for it, for sure buy a laptop (and a tablet).
I disliked my Samsung Android tablet and will probably never buy another tablet. I see people in airports using Surface tablets, and can imagine students using them on a desk. It's just not the right ergonomics for me.
The Flex Keyboard is still very expensive these days but it is a significant step up compared to the Surface Keyboard: stiffer, pen always accessible, can be used in BT put on the side for keyboard shortcut with tablet close to you, haptic touchpad. Honestly, nothing come close to a SP11 + Flex keyboard for 1500-1600€. It is THAT good.
I can't imagine how I'd use pen on a PC, but wife likes the stylus on her Samsung Galaxy phone, for fine-grained control (phones don't have a mouse). I can see that it would be nice to have the pen accessible on detachable keyboard.

What's BT? not BlueTooth in this context.

Slightly off topic, but at the current time, there is no Snapdragon X machine that could replace our 17" laptop with numeric keypad and lots of storage. I'm not sure that legacy Quicken will run (well) on ARM, but most other applications can be replaced at some cost. If the HP Omen were to fail, Acer Predator Helios 18 or some Asus ROG would be the replacement. Too bad because in summertime we don't need the heat.
 
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Slightly off topic, but at the current time, there is no Snapdragon X machine that could replace our 17" laptop with numeric keypad and lots of storage. I'm not sure that legacy Quicken will run (well) on ARM, but most other applications can be replaced at some cost. If the HP Omen were to fail, Acer Predator Helios 18 or some Asus ROG would be the replacement. Too bad because in summertime we don't need the heat.
If 16" is enough (my favorite laptop size), maybe one of these:


Numeric keypad and up to 1 TB, if eUFS is good enough.
 
I think everyone can see you have reading comprehension issues.
Do I?
Anyway, pulling from microsoft website:
ah so you take 2 spec sheets without knowing what was the tests performed?
Ah so you take notebookcheck reviews w/o cross checking? I only found 1 review for each SP7 and SP9.

35995d78237245cb9d0de1edb26264a2.jpg

f4d73d67e224411993fc32d9a746583f.jpg

Do you see a discrepancy on the hardware tested?

At least Microsoft is consistent with their claim of using the Intel i5 variant for tests on both machines. Before you make bold claims that its a regression for SP9, make sure you are comparing similar tier of hardware. So may I see a like-for-like comparison link for both SP7 vs SP9?



Here's Microsoft vague description of their test methods.



d79be274f5874c1cba33f4367914ae55.jpg



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If you have other sources saying that the SP9 is worse than the SP7 in performance and/or battery life, many of us here would like to see it.
It is litterally in my answer to you above. You can check notebookcheck.net which are using reproductible battery test so you compare apple to apple.

You can also take the hundred of reviews and REAL LIFE comparison out there.
No. You are reading them wrong. You are comparing a i5 with a i7 and claimed that the i7 is a regression cos' it's eating more battery than the i5.
Or...you can also believe me as I had pretty much all Surface Pro since the SP3.
Yes, I do believe you have all the SP since version 3. In fact I had a SP2, but it's virtually non-repairable, that broke my heart.

Oh, my son had since a few weeks as well a SP11 but with the Elite Plus (not the X). First thing he told me coming from the SP8 : "the battery life is insane on the new Surface".

Again, believe the one that have both and can compare : the snapdragon is giving AT LEAST 50% more battery life in average compared to the Intel variant.

I don't know why you do not want to believe it as pretty much EVERY reviews out there is confirming that.
I didn't say that SP11 has worse, or on par, battery life than Intel. Can you quote me, which reply did I say that? Yes, I did say you have reading comprehension issues, and you just proved it agian.

So which part of "I'm not comparing the SP9 with the SP11" in my reply do you not understand? I'll try again to explain this sentence again, but I don't know of a simpler way to do this.
 
Slightly off topic, but at the current time, there is no Snapdragon X machine that could replace our 17" laptop with numeric keypad and lots of storage. I'm not sure that legacy Quicken will run (well) on ARM, but most other applications can be replaced at some cost. If the HP Omen were to fail, Acer Predator Helios 18 or some Asus ROG would be the replacement. Too bad because in summertime we don't need the heat.
If 16" is enough (my favorite laptop size), maybe one of these:

https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/galaxy-books/galaxy-book4-edge/

Numeric keypad and up to 1 TB, if eUFS is good enough.
Thanks! Best Buy didn't have those models (14" and 16"). Yay, microSD card slot! But,


Maybe the battery is smaller than in the similar Intel model? Notebookcheck often complains about PWM flickering, but I suspect it might be only at dim brightness.
 
Slightly off topic, but at the current time, there is no Snapdragon X machine that could replace our 17" laptop with numeric keypad and lots of storage. I'm not sure that legacy Quicken will run (well) on ARM, but most other applications can be replaced at some cost. If the HP Omen were to fail, Acer Predator Helios 18 or some Asus ROG would be the replacement. Too bad because in summertime we don't need the heat.
If 16" is enough (my favorite laptop size), maybe one of these:

https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/galaxy-books/galaxy-book4-edge/

Numeric keypad and up to 1 TB, if eUFS is good enough.
Thanks! Best Buy didn't have those models (14" and 16"). Yay, microSD card slot! But,
Too bad; one of the local Best Buys had a 16" demo; I mostly liked it except I'm not a numpad fan.
You're right; according to that link, it's 62 Wh compared to the Intel's 76 Wh. Odd indeed--of all the specs, battery life is supposed to be ARM's biggest win. It's hard to see how a 16" laptop couldn't have room for a near-max capacity battery. My cheap Inspiron 7640 has 90 Wh.

Even so, battery life shouldn't be that bad. :-(
 
Slightly off topic, but at the current time, there is no Snapdragon X machine that could replace our 17" laptop with numeric keypad and lots of storage. I'm not sure that legacy Quicken will run (well) on ARM, but most other applications can be replaced at some cost. If the HP Omen were to fail, Acer Predator Helios 18 or some Asus ROG would be the replacement. Too bad because in summertime we don't need the heat.
If 16" is enough (my favorite laptop size), maybe one of these:

https://www.samsung.com/us/computing/galaxy-books/galaxy-book4-edge/

Numeric keypad and up to 1 TB, if eUFS is good enough.
Thanks! Best Buy didn't have those models (14" and 16"). Yay, microSD card slot! But,
Too bad; one of the local Best Buys had a 16" demo; I mostly liked it except I'm not a numpad fan.
You're right; according to that link, it's 62 Wh compared to the Intel's 76 Wh. Odd indeed--of all the specs, battery life is supposed to be ARM's biggest win. It's hard to see how a 16" laptop couldn't have room for a near-max capacity battery. My cheap Inspiron 7640 has 90 Wh.

Even so, battery life shouldn't be that bad. :-(
it must be real...it's at costco lol

first time I've seen it at retail





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aacb9e4d8e244714b53a819c6b625322.jpg
 
The Surface Pro tablet (fondleslab ®) weighs more than Surface Laptop 13", 3.68 vs 2.96 lbs, is similar size, and costs more with keyboard included. So much for space, money, weight.
uhm no. SP11 (1.97) + Flex keyboard (0.75) = 2,72. Indeed it is slightly lighter (not that 100g would really matter) but the laptop has also a bigger screen.

Again, I am comparing to the weight of a laptop AND tablet.

If you travel or commute, do you take your laptop AND your tablet? Then you save a lot carrying only one device. If you take only one device, you compromise on many tasks you will perform.
Surface Laptop Studio has similar tablet capability but weighs and costs more. It looks like a nice machine especially for artists.
I prefer by far the Surface. It is much more enjoyable to have the 890g tablet on a couch than the 2kg Surface Studio.

Also, while the Surface Studio is 10% faster (CPU) plug-in, with the 20% drop on battery, the SP11 is indeed more powerful.
Obviously, the GPU of the Surface Studio trounces the Surface Pro if this is not something you need to have, the Surface Pro is ...half the price and have quite some advantages.
I disliked my Samsung Android tablet and will probably never buy another tablet. I see people in airports using Surface tablets, and can imagine students using them on a desk. It's just not the right ergonomics for me.
So your argument is that tablet is useless? I will not enter in this rabbit hole but considering that there are 130 millions tablets sold every year, we can both agree that a LOT of people see the appeal of using a tablet for many tasks versus a laptop.
I can't imagine how I'd use pen on a PC,
ask the million of people using the Apple stylus on their tablet.

How do you sign / complete with handwriting pdf or other documents? How do you draw masks on a photo editing software? How do you take notes (my children at school MUST have a tablet to take note)?
but wife likes the stylus on her Samsung Galaxy phone, for fine-grained control (phones don't have a mouse). I can see that it would be nice to have the pen accessible on detachable keyboard.

What's BT? not BlueTooth in this context.
The Flex keyboard works also separated from the tablet, which allows to have the tablet close to you while the keyboard on the side for shortcut (very useful in Photoshop or whatever app you may have a use for it).
Slightly off topic, but at the current time, there is no Snapdragon X machine that could replace our 17" laptop with numeric keypad and lots of storage.
What is the weight of this thing??? You need a desktop, not a laptop.

And yes, completely out of topic.
I'm not sure that legacy Quicken will run (well) on ARM, but most other applications can be replaced at some cost.
you mean the finance managing software? do you need a powerful machine for that???
If the HP Omen were to fail, Acer Predator Helios 18 or some Asus ROG would be the replacement. Too bad because in summertime we don't need the heat.
ok but what about the current subject? You were not intending to compare a 13 tablet / laptop with a 17 huge heavy laptop, did you?
 
I think everyone can see you have reading comprehension issues.
Do I?
Anyway, pulling from microsoft website:
ah so you take 2 spec sheets without knowing what was the tests performed?
Ah so you take notebookcheck reviews w/o cross checking? I only found 1 review for each SP7 and SP9.

35995d78237245cb9d0de1edb26264a2.jpg

f4d73d67e224411993fc32d9a746583f.jpg

Do you see a discrepancy on the hardware tested?
It comforts what I said: the SP9 has the worst battery ever after just the SP8 of all SP device.

You can take the SP9 core i5, in idle or H264, battery like will be almost identical (my experience with SP4, SP5, SP7 and SP8 in i5 and i7 variants I had). Only under load it can make a larger difference...plugged in because on battery, the i7 is severely throttled.
At least Microsoft is consistent with their claim of using the Intel i5 variant for tests on both machines. Before you make bold claims that its a regression for SP9, make sure you are comparing similar tier of hardware. So may I see a like-for-like comparison link for both SP7 vs SP9?
We were speaking of the SP9 versus SP11:
Microsoft Surface Pro 9 review: Convertible now with significantly more CPU power - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

and

Microsoft Surface Pro OLED Copilot+ review - A high-end 2-in-1 now with the Snapdragon X Elite - NotebookCheck.net Reviews

you can see DOUBLE the battery life in H264 and 50% more on wifi. There is 20% more battery on load (only) for the SP11...but with 65% more performance !

Here's Microsoft vague description of their test methods.
If you have other sources saying that the SP9 is worse than the SP7 in performance and/or battery life, many of us here would like to see it.
I do not know why you want to put the fanless SP7 core i5 in the discussion. A SP11 is more than FOUR times more powerful. This is not even in the same league.

We can discuss battery life all we want but a SP11 can allow you to watch movies for any intercontinental flight non stop. But everything that you will do that requires to make the CPU run, the SP11 is running circle around the SP7 i5.
It is litterally in my answer to you above. You can check notebookcheck.net which are using reproductible battery test so you compare apple to apple.

You can also take the hundred of reviews and REAL LIFE comparison out there.
No. You are reading them wrong. You are comparing a i5 with a i7 and claimed that the i7 is a regression cos' it's eating more battery than the i5.
I have never mentioned that. I assumed that you had a i7 SP9. Isn't it?

You have a i5? And you think that the i5 would offer magically double the battery life in video and 50% more in wifi usage?

Sorry to break your bubble. I have got always in the family both the i5 and i7 versions and the difference in normal usage is pretty negligeable.
Or...you can also believe me as I had pretty much all Surface Pro since the SP3.
Yes, I do believe you have all the SP since version 3. In fact I had a SP2, but it's virtually non-repairable, that broke my heart.
Oh, my son had since a few weeks as well a SP11 but with the Elite Plus (not the X). First thing he told me coming from the SP8 : "the battery life is insane on the new Surface".

Again, believe the one that have both and can compare : the snapdragon is giving AT LEAST 50% more battery life in average compared to the Intel variant.

I don't know why you do not want to believe it as pretty much EVERY reviews out there is confirming that.
I didn't say that SP11 has worse, or on par, battery life than Intel. Can you quote me, which reply did I say that? Yes, I did say you have reading comprehension issues, and you just proved it agian.
It is not on par, it is MILES AHEAD.
So which part of "I'm not comparing the SP9 with the SP11" in my reply do you not understand? I'll try again to explain this sentence again, but I don't know of a simpler way to do this.
So what is your point? You reply to my post where I said that it makes ZERO sense to buy at a similar price a SP9 core i7 (even worse a i5) compared to a 1000$ SP11 because it is better in EVERY WAY.
 
The Surface Pro tablet (fondleslab ®) weighs more than Surface Laptop 13", 3.68 vs 2.96 lbs, is similar size, and costs more with keyboard included.
uhm no. SP11 (1.97) + Flex keyboard (0.75) = 2,72. Indeed it is slightly lighter (not that 100g would really matter) but the laptop has also a bigger screen.
Amazon specs are wrong, it appears.
If you travel or commute, do you take your laptop AND your tablet?
I carry laptop and phone, often used as 5G hotspot. I don't like tablets.

I'll stop here, as I'm getting off topic.
 
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