Sony lens quality compared to Nikon?

Its well known that Leica M lenses perform better on M bodies than they do on Sony ones. The sensor stack difference is a very real thing. Its why Voigtlander optimise their lenses for each platform to account for this. Their 35mm and 50mm f2 APO-Lanthars come in versions for M,E and Z mount. You could do comparison of the M mount version adapted to E and Z but its likely you would see poorer corner performance than the version native to each mount.
Below is a sample of the 14mm gm adapted on my Z8 at f1.8. Focused on the building and the top right corner to test corner sharpness. It is pretty good and is pretty similar to what I get with a7r5. It might be SLIGHTLY softer but hard to tell. I have a f4 comparison and both shots are sharp at the corners. Honestly, I don't see much downside.

I read the philipreeve article, I think blaming the sensor stack for the corner sharpness issue is not right, I would rather blame the adapter mount error leading to the image not aligned perfectly to the sensor. My megadap ETZ21 pro has some play when the lens is mounted. When I mount most lens natively, the fit is very good.

http://www.keehian.com/images/z8f18.jpg

http://www.keehian.com/images/z8f4.jpg
I'm not sure I would agree. I have been researching wide angle lenses for astrophotography use. I forget the site now, but it was a review of the 16mm Viltrox lens. The author did extensive testing with the Vitrox lens in Z mount and compared to the same Sony lens on the Z body with an adapter.

The adapted Sony lens was noticeably blurrier in the corners. He went and tried other focal lengths of Viltrox lenses for Sony mount on the Z and found the same thing.

It may be that in shooting terrestrial subjects the corner sharpness is not as noticeable as when you have a star field to examine.

If this was a simple case of an adapter mount error I think you would be able to tell. You would likely get worse focus in one corner or edge over another.

The Leica M mount lens performance on a Sony body is well documented. In this case it is clearly not a poorly aligned adapter. As far as I know there is not a similar issue with M mount lenses on a Nikon body.
have any lens manufacturer ever commented about this problem? Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, Nikon, etc? If it is a real problem with sensor stacks affecting how the light lands on the actual sensor, surely some knowledgeable person would have explained this somewhere.

All I see on the internet are evidence that some adapted lens don't play well with certain cameras and the root cause can be many. From what I read, it is mostly photographers talking about this issue who know nuts about lens design...

If there is a reliable article/video from someone (lens designer, manufacturer etc) talking about this problem I would love to read about it.

I kind of agree that ANCIENT lens design might have issues with modern digital sensors which require light to be more perpendicular but most modern lens should play well with other digital sensors.

The fact is historically sigma, Tamron, tokina has used the same optical design and released the lens on different mount with not much issues. It is only when people place a cheap $200 mount that issues start to appear. Isn't it reasonable to blame the mount? Or do we think that third party lens manufacturer optimised their optical design for different mount. If they did, surely they would advertise it and I haven't heard anything like this before.
 
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Its well known that Leica M lenses perform better on M bodies than they do on Sony ones. The sensor stack difference is a very real thing. Its why Voigtlander optimise their lenses for each platform to account for this. Their 35mm and 50mm f2 APO-Lanthars come in versions for M,E and Z mount. You could do comparison of the M mount version adapted to E and Z but its likely you would see poorer corner performance than the version native to each mount.
Below is a sample of the 14mm gm adapted on my Z8 at f1.8. Focused on the building and the top right corner to test corner sharpness. It is pretty good and is pretty similar to what I get with a7r5. It might be SLIGHTLY softer but hard to tell. I have a f4 comparison and both shots are sharp at the corners. Honestly, I don't see much downside.

I read the philipreeve article, I think blaming the sensor stack for the corner sharpness issue is not right, I would rather blame the adapter mount error leading to the image not aligned perfectly to the sensor. My megadap ETZ21 pro has some play when the lens is mounted. When I mount most lens natively, the fit is very good.

http://www.keehian.com/images/z8f18.jpg

http://www.keehian.com/images/z8f4.jpg
I'm not sure I would agree. I have been researching wide angle lenses for astrophotography use. I forget the site now, but it was a review of the 16mm Viltrox lens. The author did extensive testing with the Vitrox lens in Z mount and compared to the same Sony lens on the Z body with an adapter.

The adapted Sony lens was noticeably blurrier in the corners. He went and tried other focal lengths of Viltrox lenses for Sony mount on the Z and found the same thing.

It may be that in shooting terrestrial subjects the corner sharpness is not as noticeable as when you have a star field to examine.

If this was a simple case of an adapter mount error I think you would be able to tell. You would likely get worse focus in one corner or edge over another.

The Leica M mount lens performance on a Sony body is well documented. In this case it is clearly not a poorly aligned adapter. As far as I know there is not a similar issue with M mount lenses on a Nikon body.
Actually, there is similar behavior on M mount lenses on Z bodies as well, but usually not as severe as on Sony. It seems from your example that Viltrox 16mm is optimized for Z cameras, but not as optimized on Sony camera (or maybe it had to do with the fact that Z mount is larger).

Having read a lot of similar reviews from adaptive lenses and 3rd party lenses behavior on different bodies, makes me more careful when choosing 3rd party lenses or lenses to adapt.

--

stavrosf
 
It seems to me that the shorter flange distance (common to all mirrorless) has much more impact on wide angle lens design than a wider mount.
It does if you use traditional lens designs. The difference that a larger throat allows begins to happen when you use different lens designs, such as this one:

811058cf4c5b434ba5600f21efb7fc31.jpg
I completely disagree with this. I think the Z lens system is very poorly thought through.
Go back to 2019 and tell me that the Sony lineup was better (that's the same number of years after A7 that the Z6 currently is).
Now compare that to Sony's post-2018 lenses:
2018 was five years after the A7 appeared. We're currently six years after the Z6 appeared. Let's revisit this one in six years ;~). Sony's first mover advantage slowly disappears as time moves on.
Sony has understood that consistency is important.
Well, they do now. I remember a conversation with Sony engineers at Kando 2 that would argue that they haven't always thought that way ;~). I will give Sony credit, though: they listened to users and have made changes. That's been good for Sony customers. I wish that Nikon were as approachable. Nikon on occasion will listen to me, but it takes way too much of my energy to get to someone who will listen, let alone the guy that's going to fix something.

That last bit is all cultural. First, Nikon is a very Japanese culture organization. But beyond that, they never really were a consumer product company. All of their non-camera business is B2B.
And I say this as a fan of Nikon. I have been a Nikon user for 20 years, and would like to see Nikon succeed and do well, because it is the brand I prefer.
They're doing fine, and I believe that they'll do better as time moves on. The acquisition of RED is going to have some remarkably positive impacts, but not for a bit yet. The added breadth that RED gives Nikon Imaging also couples really well with the other things Nikon has been trying to do (e.g. Mark Roberts).

--
Thom Hogan
author, Complete Guides to Nikon bodies
bythom.com dslrbodies.com sansmirror.com zsystemuser.com
 
have any lens manufacturer ever commented about this problem?
Not lately.
Sigma, Tamron, Tokina, Nikon, etc? If it is a real problem with sensor stacks affecting how the light lands on the actual sensor, surely some knowledgeable person would have explained this somewhere.
Both Canon and Nikon issued patents on this very early on. "This" being "the optical properties of a filter stack sitting on top of an image sensor." Every now and then you'll see them say something about that stack (e.g. Canon's refocusing of the AA impacts). But it's been very clear to me that both design very specifically to what they know is going on just above the image sensor. The problem for the third party lens companies is that they don't know the details, so they essentially are in another reverse engineering problem, and one that has to be adjusted so that it works with different filter thicknesses and ingredients.
All I see on the internet are evidence that some adapted lens don't play well with certain cameras and the root cause can be many. From what I read, it is mostly photographers talking about this issue who know nuts about lens design...
Yes. And we've talked about it for decades. Early adoption of Leica lenses showed clear side to side color issues on FSI sensors, for instance, especially before we got better microlenses and color crosstalk barriers.
 
Its well known that Leica M lenses perform better on M bodies than they do on Sony ones. The sensor stack difference is a very real thing. Its why Voigtlander optimise their lenses for each platform to account for this. Their 35mm and 50mm f2 APO-Lanthars come in versions for M,E and Z mount. You could do comparison of the M mount version adapted to E and Z but its likely you would see poorer corner performance than the version native to each mount.
That simply proves that manufacturers are using electronics to mask/correct inadequacies in the optical performance of lenses. Hence why a 'neutral'* sensor would be much better in accurately assessing optical qualities of lenses, than less than scientific 'tests' using various different camera bodies.
What is neutral sensor and how would it be defined to be as such?
Sorry, I meant to explain hence the asterisk. A 'neutral' sensor would ideally be made by someone completely independent of any of the companies whose products are tested. To remove any possible bias. So an 'industry standard' sensor if you like. In the real world such a thing is probably not possible, but theoretically, it would work. As it would not involve any electronic trickery to compensate for any lens flaw/inadequacy.
Also Sony having a thicker sensor stack, are they wrong to do so? Judging by the images I have gotten from my previous A7III and current A7RIV I would say absolutely not as having a thicker sensor stack works for them. I also own an M10 and I get wonderful images from that sensor too so Leica are correct to use a thinner sensor stack as it works for them.
That's irrelevant to what I'm talking about, which is optical quality. Film era lenses, many subsequently used on digital cameras, were not 'optimised' for a particular camera or film type. IE; a Nikon lens on a different body which had been adapted to accommodate it, would perform exactly the same as if on a Nikon body. 3rd party lenses by Sigma, Tamron etc, were generally identical in all but the lens mount (and whatever electronic connections were required for AF, auto aperture etc).
If a Leica lens performs poorly on a camera that it wasn’t intended to be used on that’s not the fault of Leica, nor is the fault of the camera maker.
It most definitely is the fault of Leica/the lens manufacturer. Because the flaws are in the optics. Which are the most important parts of any lens. Physics doesn't change to suit a particular brand.
 
If a Leica lens performs poorly on a camera that it wasn’t intended to be used on that’s not the fault of Leica, nor is the fault of the camera maker.
It most definitely is the fault of Leica/the lens manufacturer. Because the flaws are in the optics. Which are the most important parts of any lens. Physics doesn't change to suit a particular brand.
I disagree strongly with the implications in that. Perhaps what I'm disagreeing with is the usage of the word "fault". Fault is generally taken to mean weakness, wrongdoing, mistake, blame, etc. Maybe your intention is to say "as a result of" or "caused by".

It is certainly true that Leica has created their lenses to work with Leica cameras. If they don't give lesser IQ on a Sony or Nikon digital camera it certainly is the result of Leica designing it for Leica. But that is hardly a fault. Not of Leica's lens design nor of the camera body makers filter stack design.
 
It seems to me that the shorter flange distance (common to all mirrorless) has much more impact on wide angle lens design than a wider mount.
It does if you use traditional lens designs. The difference that a larger throat allows begins to happen when you use different lens designs, such as this one:

811058cf4c5b434ba5600f21efb7fc31.jpg
I completely disagree with this. I think the Z lens system is very poorly thought through.
Go back to 2019 and tell me that the Sony lineup was better (that's the same number of years after A7 that the Z6 currently is).
Now compare that to Sony's post-2018 lenses:
2018 was five years after the A7 appeared. We're currently six years after the Z6 appeared. Let's revisit this one in six years ;~). Sony's first mover advantage slowly disappears as time moves on.
Sony has understood that consistency is important.
Well, they do now. I remember a conversation with Sony engineers at Kando 2 that would argue that they haven't always thought that way ;~). I will give Sony credit, though: they listened to users and have made changes. That's been good for Sony customers. I wish that Nikon were as approachable. Nikon on occasion will listen to me, but it takes way too much of my energy to get to someone who will listen, let alone the guy that's going to fix something.

That last bit is all cultural. First, Nikon is a very Japanese culture organization. But beyond that, they never really were a consumer product company. All of their non-camera business is B2B.
And I say this as a fan of Nikon. I have been a Nikon user for 20 years, and would like to see Nikon succeed and do well, because it is the brand I prefer.
They're doing fine, and I believe that they'll do better as time moves on. The acquisition of RED is going to have some remarkably positive impacts, but not for a bit yet. The added breadth that RED gives Nikon Imaging also couples really well with the other things Nikon has been trying to do (e.g. Mark Roberts).
If you ever muster the courage to again to get their attention, if you can see this - you will make many many astro guys very very happy.

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67873200

Maybe also throw in the 4:5 crop thing too...
 
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Its well known that Leica M lenses perform better on M bodies than they do on Sony ones. The sensor stack difference is a very real thing. Its why Voigtlander optimise their lenses for each platform to account for this. Their 35mm and 50mm f2 APO-Lanthars come in versions for M,E and Z mount. You could do comparison of the M mount version adapted to E and Z but its likely you would see poorer corner performance than the version native to each mount.
That simply proves that manufacturers are using electronics to mask/correct inadequacies in the optical performance of lenses. Hence why a 'neutral'* sensor would be much better in accurately assessing optical qualities of lenses, than less than scientific 'tests' using various different camera bodies.
What is neutral sensor and how would it be defined to be as such?
Sorry, I meant to explain hence the asterisk. A 'neutral' sensor would ideally be made by someone completely independent of any of the companies whose products are tested. To remove any possible bias. So an 'industry standard' sensor if you like. In the real world such a thing is probably not possible, but theoretically, it would work. As it would not involve any electronic trickery to compensate for any lens flaw/inadequacy.
Yet the lenses that would be tested have been not been optimised for this new sensor. So any tests would still have some sort of bias depending on the specification of the sensor and the thickness of its stack.
Also Sony having a thicker sensor stack, are they wrong to do so? Judging by the images I have gotten from my previous A7III and current A7RIV I would say absolutely not as having a thicker sensor stack works for them. I also own an M10 and I get wonderful images from that sensor too so Leica are correct to use a thinner sensor stack as it works for them.
That's irrelevant to what I'm talking about, which is optical quality. Film era lenses, many subsequently used on digital cameras, were not 'optimised' for a particular camera or film type. IE; a Nikon lens on a different body which had been adapted to accommodate it, would perform exactly the same as if on a Nikon body. 3rd party lenses by Sigma, Tamron etc, were generally identical in all but the lens mount (and whatever electronic connections were required for AF, auto aperture etc).
Quite possible that film era lenses do operate the same across different adapted bodies, would need to be tested to know for certain.
If a Leica lens performs poorly on a camera that it wasn’t intended to be used on that’s not the fault of Leica, nor is the fault of the camera maker.
It most definitely is the fault of Leica/the lens manufacturer. Because the flaws are in the optics. Which are the most important parts of any lens. Physics doesn't change to suit a particular brand.
Leica only have to ensure their lenses work on their bodies, if they perform poorly on another system that is absolutely not Leica’s fault. This isn’t physics issue, the camera companies do things their own way. Much like many other industries.
 
Back to the topic of Nikon vs Sony in terms of lens quality. Sony leads on wide angles, Nikon leads on telephotos.
This to me is very curious, because the wide throat of the Nikon Z mount is supposed to make it so superior. Yet even here Sony seems to have no trouble competing.
The decision in favor of the dimensions of the Z-mount is first and foremost a forward-looking orientation.
A smaller flange distance and wider diameter gives the lens designers significantly fewer restrictions and more freedom.
This gives them significantly more options to exert a targeted influence where they were otherwise more limited.
Conversely, however, this does not mean that Nikon makes use of the advantages of the mount for every lens design.

So far, this is more likely to apply to a minority of Z lenses, at least those that really make use of it, and Nikon has made special use of it for the Noct and Plena, where some of Nikon's best engineers have invested a great deal of development work.

Examples of where the possibilities of the new Z-mount have been exhausted are the Z 58/0.95 Noct, or the Z 135/1.8 S Plena, which would not have been possible without the possibilities offered by the new Z-mount.
In the case of the Plena, this was primarily achieved via an oversized rear element.
The Z-mount therefore enables constructions that were previously not possible with the F-mount and that would not be possible in the form of the Plena without the option of significantly oversizing the rear element.

However, this does not mean that Nikon exhausts or even utilizes the possibilities of the new mount with every lens.
It is also a question of costs and development work, lenses like the Plena are not created overnight, many years of work and basic research have gone into them.

Although it is ultimately an advertising campaign for the Plena, it does give an insight into how the possibilities of the new Z-mount have been used on the Plena and how the effects and aberrations associated with vignetting have been virtually eliminated.

The decision for the mount is therefore primarily a decision for the future.
It enables Nikon to create optical constructions that were not possible before in this form and with these means.
We will certainly see more of this in the future, tilt/shift would be predestined, but also other constructions.
In Part2 @ 0:52sec one of the engineers talks about how the possibilities of the new Z-mount have been exhausted in the Plena.
There are areas, especially with extreme optical designs such as the Noct or the Plena, where the engineers who have to work with the Sony E-mount are much more limited.
Either such designs cannot be realized at all, or the toolkit to achieve the goals is noticeably more limited.
Where the Nikon engineer can use the full potential of the Z-mount to, for example, almost completely eliminate vignetting and its aberrations by optical means, the Sony engineer has to look for other ways to achieve his goal or have to make more compromises in the designs.

The Z-mount therefore fundamentally allows more radical optical designs and at the same time significantly expands the possibilities for future designs.

Will this be reflected in the wide range of Z lenses?
Probably not, at least in such a way that Nikon really exhaust the possibilities of the Z-mount like they did with the Noct or Plena.

Not in areas where it drives up costs too much, so it will probably concentrate on special optical constructions and the upper price range for the time being.
Where it pays off to invest the corresponding development work and costs.
I suspect Nikon designers got carried away by the new and bigger Z mount. Freed from 50 years of constraints by the F mount, they put a lot of focus into showcasing what the new mount could do, and not enough into other considerations such as weight, cost and utility.

I do get the feeling that Nikon may be turning into the new Leica. A once popular company that has become a niche brand loved by affluent afficionados, while most photographers switch to other brands that offer options that better serve their needs.

I do hope Nikon wakes up and adjusts course. The Nikon Z8/Z9 are a great start. Easily the best cameras available on the market today IMO. But the lens lineup is much more of a mixed bag.

When I look at the new Sony lens lineup starting around 2018, and how consistent and well thought-out it is, I recognize that Nikon has formidable competition. And in addition the E mount enjoys massive 3rd-party support, which both Nikon & Canon actively discourage.
😂
 
Yes, that certainly needs to be formulated more precisely.
I was mainly concerned with the fact that, according to their own statements, they have really exhausted the possibilities with lenses such as the Noct or Plena for the first time.

Ultimately, of course, all Z lenses are designed for the Z-mount, for MILC without a mirror box.
Flange distance and mount diameter allow a lot more leeway and this is also utilized with pretty much every one of my Z lenses, which is noticeable in the placement of the rear elements

I was concerned with lenses in the Z range where the full potential of the mount has really been exploited, where special effort has been made to really exhaust the possibilities of the mount.

This is addressed in the three-part “Making of Plena” series in part 2 and part 3.
Where the engineers talk about it
"Until now we believed that we understood the potential of the Z-mount in theory, but the whole Plena development team shared a dream to bring its greatness to its full potential, enabling us to go beyond anything we've developed before."

In this respect, the features and key data of the new Z mount are of course incorporated into all Z lens designs, but not all lenses make this effort to really exhaust the possibilities of the Z mount.

That's why the Nikon engineers of the Plena project speak of having really fully utilized the features of the Z mount here.
Is “exhaust” best choice of wording here? That implies there’s no room for any additional improvement which seems unlikely.
 
Is “exhaust” best choice of wording here? That implies there’s no room for any additional improvement which seems unlikely.
First of all, English is not my native language, so I do not achieve the same precision as with my native language.
Apart from that, you should ask the question to the Nikon engineers from the Plena development team in the videos, because they talk about having used the full potential of the Z-mount with the Plena, or talk about fully utilizing the features of the Z mount.

The word exhausted is not explicitly used, but when the Nikon developement team speaks of having used the full potential of the mount, or of fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, or "The Plena takes the potential of the Nikon Z mount to the limit". then for me this implies an exhaustion of the current possibilities, otherwise I am not speaking of using the full potential, or of fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, or of taking the potential of the Z mount to the limit.
So here Nikon is talking about fully utilizing, of taking the potential of the Nikon Z mount to the limit and not partially utilizing the features of the Z mount.

So these, full potential of the Z mount, fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, taking the potential of the Z mount with the Plena to the limit are the words of those responsible for the Plena project, I don't really see where the word exhausted is out of place in this context.

It explicitly states that until now we believed that we understood the potential of the Z mount in theory.
With the Plena, the development team has realized the shared dream of bringing the magnificence of the Z mount to its full potential.
 
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If a Leica lens performs poorly on a camera that it wasn’t intended to be used on that’s not the fault of Leica, nor is the fault of the camera maker.
It most definitely is the fault of Leica/the lens manufacturer. Because the flaws are in the optics. Which are the most important parts of any lens. Physics doesn't change to suit a particular brand.
I disagree strongly with the implications in that. Perhaps what I'm disagreeing with is the usage of the word "fault". Fault is generally taken to mean weakness, wrongdoing, mistake, blame, etc. Maybe your intention is to say "as a result of" or "caused by".
'Fault' was the word you used.
It is certainly true that Leica has created their lenses to work with Leica cameras. If they don't give lesser IQ on a Sony or Nikon digital camera it certainly is the result of Leica designing it for Leica. But that is hardly a fault. Not of Leica's lens design nor of the camera body makers filter stack design.
A red herring. Most of Leica's current lens line up was designed long before anyone was shooting on digital cameras. You have it completely the wrong way round, no offence. The cameras and sensors are designed around the lenses, hence the in-camera corrections of optical flaws etc. This is why they show up on cameras not using software corrections. The flaws are exposed without the computer trickery to mask them.
 
What is neutral sensor and how would it be defined to be as such?
Sorry, I meant to explain hence the asterisk. A 'neutral' sensor would ideally be made by someone completely independent of any of the companies whose products are tested. To remove any possible bias. So an 'industry standard' sensor if you like. In the real world such a thing is probably not possible, but theoretically, it would work. As it would not involve any electronic trickery to compensate for any lens flaw/inadequacy.
Yet the lenses that would be tested have been not been optimised for this new sensor. So any tests would still have some sort of bias depending on the specification of the sensor and the thickness of its stack.
Lenses aren't optimised for particular sensors; see my post above.
Quite possible that film era lenses do operate the same across different adapted bodies, would need to be tested to know for certain.
No need; such lenses have already been tested extensively, over many decades some of them. This is why we know about their particular individual flaws and characteristics. Kodachrome for eg would provide a constant in such testing, is the formula remained constant itself.
Leica only have to ensure their lenses work on their bodies, if they perform poorly on another system that is absolutely not Leica’s fault. This isn’t physics issue, the camera companies do things their own way. Much like many other industries.
Again; see my post above. This is 100% a physics issue; what else would it be? A lens' job is to render a reproduction of a scene on a flat plane parallel to the scene itself. The aim is to achieve as much sharpness, colour consistency and a lack of aberration and distortion as possible, to this render the scene as accurately as possible, across the entire 'frame'. This is achieved through the application of principles of physics.

Now in the real world, it is virtually impossible to eliminate any such 'flaws', particularly with the more extreme wide angle lenses for instance, hence why manufacturers use in-camera corrections achieved through the use of software, to manipulate the final electronic image. Manufacturers cannot manipulate physics to suit particular sensors; that would be impossible. Attempting to 'optimise' lenses to suit individual sensors would also be a madness; how can you do that for the multiple versions of a particular sensor that appears in different models across a range, and over time? No, camera manufacturers don't do that. What they do do, is use highly specialised and very sophisticated test equipment, using sensors way higher in resolution than you'll find in any camera (possibly equipment that is standard across the industry), and good old fashioned methods such as simply looking through lenses with specialist optical equipment etc, or even just human eyes. Individual camera models are then tweaked accordingly, to accommodate any particular negative characteristics of particular lens models. This is why we have things like lens profiles in cameras and in editing software.

So returning to lens quality; this is all about simply physics. Hence why it's so difficult to accurately assess lenses in comparison because of all the software tricks camera manufacturers are using.

I hope this helps clear things up.
 
....is the term used among the design teams in Nikon. You will have read about this in the interview cited above about the planning and advantages of the Z mount architecture.

To quote:

"What do you mean by "using up"?

Ishigami: It means that the mount diameter has been fully utilized. For example, if it is a lens that has been designed with performance in mind, it means that the performance has been maximized, and if it is designed to be small and lightweight, it means that it has been made as compact as possible. It is a term used within the company to express whether the design has been "fully utilized." When discussing the commercialization of a product within the company, the topic of "fully utilized" is always brought up."
Is “exhaust” best choice of wording here? That implies there’s no room for any additional improvement which seems unlikely.
First of all, English is not my native language, so I do not achieve the same precision as with my native language.
Apart from that, you should ask the question to the Nikon engineers from the Plena development team in the videos, because they talk about having used the full potential of the Z-mount with the Plena, or talk about fully utilizing the features of the Z mount.

The word exhausted is not explicitly used, but when the Nikon developement team speaks of having used the full potential of the mount, or of fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, or "The Plena takes the potential of the Nikon Z mount to the limit". then for me this implies an exhaustion of the current possibilities, otherwise I am not speaking of using the full potential, or of fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, or of taking the potential of the Z mount to the limit.
So here Nikon is talking about fully utilizing, of taking the potential of the Nikon Z mount to the limit and not partially utilizing the features of the Z mount.

So these, full potential of the Z mount, fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, taking the potential of the Z mount with the Plena to the limit are the words of those responsible for the Plena project, I don't really see where the word exhausted is out of place in this context.

It explicitly states that until now we believed that we understood the potential of the Z mount in theory.
With the Plena, the development team has realized the shared dream of bringing the magnificence of the Z mount to its full potential.
--
““We can use words to denote not only objects and events in the outside world but also more abstract concepts. This ability leads to another strikingly human characteristic, one that is seldom mentioned: our almost limitless ability for self deception.......Whatever the answer, the only sensible way to arrive at it [Nature's secrets] is through detailed scientific research. All other approaches are little more than whistling to keep our courage up. Man is endowed with a relentless curiosity about the world. We cannot be satisfied forever by the guesses of yesterday, however much the charms of tradition and ritual may, for a time, lull our doubts about their validity. We must hammer away until we have forged a clear and valid picture not only of this vast universe in which we live but also of our very selves.” Francis Crick (1989: 263) The Astonishing Hypothesis
 
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If a Leica lens performs poorly on a camera that it wasn’t intended to be used on that’s not the fault of Leica, nor is the fault of the camera maker.
It most definitely is the fault of Leica/the lens manufacturer. Because the flaws are in the optics. Which are the most important parts of any lens. Physics doesn't change to suit a particular brand.
I disagree strongly with the implications in that. Perhaps what I'm disagreeing with is the usage of the word "fault". Fault is generally taken to mean weakness, wrongdoing, mistake, blame, etc. Maybe your intention is to say "as a result of" or "caused by".
'Fault' was the word you used.
It is certainly true that Leica has created their lenses to work with Leica cameras. If they don't give lesser IQ on a Sony or Nikon digital camera it certainly is the result of Leica designing it for Leica. But that is hardly a fault. Not of Leica's lens design nor of the camera body makers filter stack design.
A red herring. Most of Leica's current lens line up was designed long before anyone was shooting on digital cameras. You have it completely the wrong way round, no offence. The cameras and sensors are designed around the lenses, hence the in-camera corrections of optical flaws etc. This is why they show up on cameras not using software corrections. The flaws are exposed without the computer trickery to mask them.
You are saying computer trickery but also negating that there’s a physical element to these systems. The OEMs design and build their lenses to work on their own systems, nothing more. Many M lenses are known to have smeared edges when adapted to Sony bodies, the fix for this is have the Sony body physically modified to have a thinner sensor stack.



I don’t deny that many modern lenses have significant optical corrections, some are even best described as being severe. Since there’s no such thing as a standard sensor available lens comparisons are fair to be done across platforms with and or without corrections. You may disagree but my concern is what my final image looks like after I have processed the image. If software corrections aid with that and I can carry a smaller and lighter lens so be it.

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I doubt they would use the FULL potential of the Z mount ever, the market won't bear it, so compromises are made.
 
Is “exhaust” best choice of wording here? That implies there’s no room for any additional improvement which seems unlikely.
First of all, English is not my native language, so I do not achieve the same precision as with my native language.
Apart from that, you should ask the question to the Nikon engineers from the Plena development team in the videos, because they talk about having used the full potential of the Z-mount with the Plena, or talk about fully utilizing the features of the Z mount.

The word exhausted is not explicitly used, but when the Nikon developement team speaks of having used the full potential of the mount, or of fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, or "The Plena takes the potential of the Nikon Z mount to the limit". then for me this implies an exhaustion of the current possibilities, otherwise I am not speaking of using the full potential, or of fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, or of taking the potential of the Z mount to the limit.
So here Nikon is talking about fully utilizing, of taking the potential of the Nikon Z mount to the limit and not partially utilizing the features of the Z mount.

So these, full potential of the Z mount, fully utilizing the features of the Z mount, taking the potential of the Z mount with the Plena to the limit are the words of those responsible for the Plena project, I don't really see where the word exhausted is out of place in this context.

It explicitly states that until now we believed that we understood the potential of the Z mount in theory.
With the Plena, the development team has realized the shared dream of bringing the magnificence of the Z mount to its full potential.
Your English is fine. Meant no disrespect. Here's hoping we'll see a spectacular 35/1.2 S!
 
Thanks!

I have no doubt that Nikon will deliver with a 35mm f/1.2 S.
Where the Nikon engineers have more freedom, because the budget leeway is greater, it is also partly about prestige objects/showpieces of a system, where the development teams can take a lot of time for the development and the dictate is not exclusively economic efficiency, the result is usually something of very high quality.

The disadvantage of this is that it is usually quite expensive when the Nikon development teams can let off steam within the economic framework conditions for such lenses.
In addition, it is rarely light and compact.

It was originally about the Op's objection that you wouldn't see any of the big advertised advantages of the mount compared to Sony.

It's not black and white in the Z system, with many price-conscious products there won't even be the leeway to use all the possibilities of the mount in the design, because it naturally increases the costs.

On the other hand, it allows Nikon to create designs that would not be possible without the advantageous conditions of the mount.
They are already demonstrating this with some lenses in the line-up, where special efforts have been made, and will also enable special designs and performance data in the future.

What I don't really understand about the OP is why stick with Nikon if you find the Sony lens range so much better, or rather if it meets your requirements so much better.
For all the understandable criticism in the area of inconsistency in the Nikon Z lens range, ultimately the OP wants Nikon to be a copy of the Sony line-up and lens design.

If these were my priorities, f/1.4 primes, smaller, more compact, aperture ring, 70-200/4, I would buy where I feel better represented and not be bothered by the fact that I feel that everything at Sony is as I would like it to be at Nikon.

Personally, I'm glad that Nikon and ultimately each of the big manufacturers is going its own way.
The similarities in the tuning/alignment of many of the lenses are already very high anyway, so for me variety is the trump card here.
So every pot finds its suitable lid.

There will always be areas where one manufacturer does it better than the other, but overall, for me personally, Nikon is on an excellent path with their Z-lens line up, considering the timescales involved.
 
What I don't really understand about the OP is why stick with Nikon if you find the Sony lens range so much better, or rather if it meets your requirements so much better.
For all the understandable criticism in the area of inconsistency in the Nikon Z lens range, ultimately the OP wants Nikon to be a copy of the Sony line-up and lens design.

If these were my priorities, f/1.4 primes, smaller, more compact, aperture ring, 70-200/4, I would buy where I feel better represented and not be bothered by the fact that I feel that everything at Sony is as I would like it to be at Nikon.
Well, I've been shooting Nikon for 20 years, and I do think the Z8/Z9 are by far the best mirrorless cameras available on the market today. I also prefer the Nikon ergonomics, rendering, features, etc. I am also familiar with their service, software, quirks, etc. So I would like to stay loyal to Nikon.

But I primarily hike/travel to take pictures, so weight is a concern. So the f/1.2 primes, and the Plena, excellent as they may be, are not lenses that I will be able to make use of. And I would also like a lightweight 70-200 type lens that I can pair with my 24-70. It could be a lightweight f/2.8 lens, or a f/4, but Nikon offers neither (the 70-180 does not meet my bar for quality).

I did consider getting the 70-200 f/2.8 and suffer with the extra weight, but found the ergonomics to be wanting, given that I rely heavily on the control ring for exposure compensation.

Anyway, when I saw the specs for Sony's 70-200, I was curious to what extent they made trade-offs to achieve that weight reduction. And based on the answer, I think the chances are good that Nikon will follow suit and introduce a lighter MK II version of the 70-200 that also improves the ergonomics. So I am currently taking a wait-and-see approach, and have dialed back any plans to buy more lenses.

At the same time, the more I looked into it, the more impressed I am with what Sony is able to deliver. If Sony announces a killer camera, or Nikon's lens inventory or ergonomics continue to disappoint in a few years, I may well switch.
 
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