Hasselblad X2D: no matrix metering?

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Thanks.

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https://www.flickr.com/photos/149089857@N03/

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

I do not think they ever explained why they skipped on the matrix metering.

I can imagine several reasons/excuses, mainly that you do not care about the metering if you use the live histogram or do not want "unpredictable" algorithms to decide the exposure.

I use matrix metering where available, but I no longer care that much. I use live highlight clipping to determine the exposure; sadly, it is unavailable with X2D. Instead, the clipping and RGB histogram in the image review works for me.

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

...many of their native lenses to achieve a relatively compact size and accommodate the leaf shutter mechanisms, have higher than average vignetting, this poses a tricky slider for matrix metering. Depending on aperture, the matrix metering math would be quite complex and need to be tailored to each lens, possible... but maybe a can of worms (unexpected exposure shifts), so best avoided, as they did.

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to justify or explain. The datasheet tells anyone interested, under the heading Exposure metering, the camera offers: "Spot, centre weighted, and centre spot". You can find more detailed information in the user manual.

That's what the camera offers. It's your choice which camera you choose to use and you don't need to justify that to anyone but yourself. You indicate above that you don't miss it and there are others for whom it's a low priority as well.

left eye said:

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

...many of their native lenses to achieve a relatively compact size and accommodate the leaf shutter mechanisms, have higher than average vignetting, this poses a tricky slider for matrix metering. Depending on aperture, the matrix metering math would be quite complex and need to be tailored to each lens, possible... but maybe a can of worms (unexpected exposure shifts), so best avoided, as they did.

Click to expand...

Interesting! That makes a lot of sense why Hasselblad avoided it.

as1mov said:

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

Is my impression correct that despite the X2D having phase-detection autofocus, it still does not offer continuous autofocus? If so, then:

* a Hasselblad defender might say that the X2D is focused (pun intended?) on a somewhat different and more limited use / market, and that any situation where an X2D is a good tool for the job is one where things like zebra stripes (does it offer those?) and histograms (does it offer raw histograms?) will be what the photographer uses to chose the ideal exposure, instead of having some matrix guess at it.

* A cynic might say that Hasselblad is so non-competitive technologically that it decided not to offer features that would be too far behind the competition's versions.

A realest tending a bit toward cynic (me) might suppose that there's some truth to both. But that's just my own personal opinion--I have no real insight.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

Is my impression correct that despite the X2D having phase-detection autofocus, it still does not offer continuous autofocus?

Click to expand...

Correct. OSPDAF improves focusing speed of AF-S.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

If so, then:

* a Hasselblad defender might say that the X2D is focused (pun intended?) on a somewhat different and more limited use / market, and that any situation where an X2D is a good tool for the job is one where things like zebra stripes (does it offer those?) and histograms (does it offer raw histograms?) will be what the photographer uses to chose the ideal exposure, instead of having some matrix guess at it.

Click to expand...

Highlight clipping warnings are provided only in image review, unfortunately. Except for Phase One, no camera provides raw histograms. There is a live, JPEG based histogram. X2D does not have matrix metering. It is possible to do a decent job with exposure by using center weighted metering and experience, but image review helps fine tune the exposure.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

* A cynic might say that Hasselblad is so non-competitive technologically that it decided not to offer features that would be too far behind the competition's versions.

A realest tending a bit toward cynic (me) might suppose that there's some truth to both. But that's just my own personal opinion--I have no real insight.

Click to expand...

I do not follow. A camera should not be judged only by features that it offers.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

NAwlins Contrarian said:

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

Is my impression correct that despite the X2D having phase-detection autofocus, it still does not offer continuous autofocus? If so, then:

* a Hasselblad defender might say that the X2D is focused (pun intended?) on a somewhat different and more limited use / market,

Click to expand...

Hasselblad is made for a niche market in a niche market.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

and that any situation where an X2D is a good tool for the job is one where things like zebra stripes (does it offer those?) and histograms (does it offer raw histograms?) will be what the photographer uses to chose the ideal exposure, instead of having some matrix guess at it.

* A cynic might say that Hasselblad is so non-competitive technologically that it decided not to offer features that would be too far behind the competition's versions.

Click to expand...

I don't think Hassy ever wanted to make a technologically advanced (AKA kichen sink computer) camera system. They always sought to be a camera company focussed on the photographing experience. Which is why they offer superior haptics, UI, and ergonomics. And although I am a tech geek I can admire that philosophy. And I am not being sarcastic here, in case people want to draw their pitchforks out.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

A realest tending a bit toward cynic (me) might suppose that there's some truth to both. But that's just my own personal opinion--I have no real insight.

Click to expand...

I agree with this.

SrMi said:

SrMi said:

SrMi said:

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

Is my impression correct that despite the X2D having phase-detection autofocus, it still does not offer continuous autofocus?

Click to expand...

Correct. OSPDAF improves focusing speed of AF-S.

Click to expand...

IMO that's a less-useful approach, or at least, a frustrating limitation. Even accepting that nobody is going to think an X2D is the right tool for shooting sports,* things like continuous eye AF with a subject who is moving around somewhat would be a useful addition, and a good reason to put PDAF on such a camera. So this seems to be a bit of, 'Swim, swim, and sink at the shore'--IMO.

SrMi said:

SrMi said:

If so, then:

* a Hasselblad defender might say that the X2D is focused (pun intended?) on a somewhat different and more limited use / market, and that any situation where an X2D is a good tool for the job is one where things like zebra stripes (does it offer those?) and histograms (does it offer raw histograms?) will be what the photographer uses to chose the ideal exposure, instead of having some matrix guess at it.

Click to expand...

Highlight clipping warnings are provided only in image review, unfortunately. Except for Phase One, no camera provides raw histograms. There is a live, JPEG based histogram. X2D does not have matrix metering. It is possible to do a decent job with exposure by using center weighted metering and experience, but image review helps fine tune the exposure.

Click to expand...

The combination of the lack of sophisticated metering (e.g. emphasizing the area around the active focus point), the lack of zebra stripes or similar, and even post-exposure warnings being limited to only the JPEG version sure seems like an impediment to getting ideal (i.e., ETTR) exposures. On an $8000 MF camera I'd find that frustrating.

SrMi said:

SrMi said:

* A cynic might say that Hasselblad is so non-competitive technologically that it decided not to offer features that would be too far behind the competition's versions.

A realest tending a bit toward cynic (me) might suppose that there's some truth to both. But that's just my own personal opinion--I have no real insight.

Click to expand...

I do not follow. A camera should not be judged only by features that it offers.

Click to expand...

A camera should not be judged only by features that it offers, but it should be judged based on what capabilities and benefits it provides compared to both its competition and its price. Some degree of continuous autofocus and/or better metering and/or better ability to manually set exposure would certainly increase the capabilities and provide benefits for uses that seem well within the X2D's reasonably-expected / intended use window.

*Well, I remember many years ago reading an article in Shutterbug about shooting (American) football with a Hasselblad 503 or whatever and the 250 SA and 350 SA, and notwithstanding the author's 'Hey this kind-of works!' take, the whole exercise seemed silly to me.

TechTalk2 said:

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to justify or explain. The datasheet tells anyone interested, under the heading Exposure metering, the camera offers: "Spot, centre weighted, and centre spot". You can find more detailed information in the user manual.

That's what the camera offers. It's your choice which camera you choose to use and you don't need to justify that to anyone but yourself. You indicate above that you don't miss it and there are others for whom it's a low priority as well.

Click to expand...

He knows what the options are. Matrix metering is fairly ubiquitous in modern cameras, so the question is a reasonable one for people wanting to learn (as I just did from Left Eye who offers an interesting explanation). I am sure you don't need to condescend and point out that he is entitled to choose what camera he wants, so this seems to be a predictably terse reply that wilfully ignores the content and spirit of the OP's question, no?

left eye said:

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

...many of their native lenses to achieve a relatively compact size and accommodate the leaf shutter mechanisms, have higher than average vignetting, this poses a tricky slider for matrix metering. Depending on aperture, the matrix metering math would be quite complex and need to be tailored to each lens, possible... but maybe a can of worms (unexpected exposure shifts), so best avoided, as they did.

Click to expand...

I doubt that the vignetting of the most recent lenses is related to it. Many FF cameras use matrix metering and still use lenses with heavy vignetting.

They probably think it is not that important, and I have rarely (never?) heard that X2D owners are missing it, except on a spec sheet.

Edit:

P.S.: Have you seen the uncorrected vignetting in GF 63? It still works with matrix metering.

I don't really need matrix metering, but I wouldn't mind highlight weighted metering. It's convenient, especially considering that underexposure on the X2D only gives advantages. I would gladly turn off exposure simulation to see the bright screen and all the shadows and shoot all daytime contrast scenes with highlight weighted metering (as I do on the M11), knowing that I will always add the required number of exposure steps in post-processing, while definitely not losing bright areas of the frame. As an intermediate solution, I agree to live blinking highlights

Smogg said:

I don't really need matrix metering, but I wouldn't mind highlight weighted metering. It's convenient, especially considering that underexposure on the X2D only gives advantages. I would gladly turn off exposure simulation to see the bright screen and all the shadows and shoot all daytime contrast scenes with highlight weighted metering (as I do on the M11), knowing that I will always add the required number of exposure steps in post-processing, while definitely not losing bright areas of the frame. As an intermediate solution, I agree to live blinking highlights

Click to expand...

I have started shooting without exposure simulation to have the EVF bright enough for framing. Without exposure simulation, live histogram and highlight clipping are not possible.

Using my experience and predictable center-weighted metering, I can use the metering scale to dial in the exposure. Using image review, I checked whether I was off a lot. The most crucial element of any exposure is not to clip relevant highlights.

MattPointZero said:

TechTalk2 said:

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

There's nothing to justify or explain. The datasheet tells anyone interested, under the heading Exposure metering, the camera offers: "Spot, centre weighted, and centre spot". You can find more detailed information in the user manual.

That's what the camera offers. It's your choice which camera you choose to use and you don't need to justify that to anyone but yourself. You indicate above that you don't miss it and there are others for whom it's a low priority as well.

Click to expand...

He knows what the options are.

Click to expand...

Other people are reading this forum thread who may not know. The original poster said when "checking the options in the X2D menu" he was "surprised".

I listed the available metering options for the benefit of "anyone interested" and to avoid a "surprise" for anyone else because it's a forum read by a variety of people and not a private conversation.

Member said:

Matrix metering is fairly ubiquitous in modern cameras, so the question is a reasonable one...

Click to expand...

The question posed was: "how does HB [Hasselblad] justify this choice?" I gave my point of view regarding justifying a camera makers choice of features and the choice photographers make who use them. I don't believe those types of choices require justification to anyone. I'm not insisting that anyone agree with my viewpoint, I'm simply stating it.

Member said:

...for people wanting to learn (as I just did from Left Eye who offers an interesting explanation).

Click to expand...

It may be an interesting explanation for some, but not one I find logical. As suggested in a post above, cameras which offer matrix metering are used with lenses which have widely varied degrees of vignetting depending on the specific lens being used and aperture selected.

Member said:

I am sure you don't need to condescend and point out that he is entitled to choose what camera he wants, so this seems to be a predictably terse reply that wilfully ignores the content and spirit of the OP's question, no?

Click to expand...

No. I stated my viewpoint on the OP's question which was about justifying a choice of features. I did not ignore the question.

I welcome you to state your point of view as you please and as you see it, even if I might disagree. My best wishes to you as always.

SrMi said:

Smogg said:

I don't really need matrix metering, but I wouldn't mind highlight weighted metering. It's convenient, especially considering that underexposure on the X2D only gives advantages. I would gladly turn off exposure simulation to see the bright screen and all the shadows and shoot all daytime contrast scenes with highlight weighted metering (as I do on the M11), knowing that I will always add the required number of exposure steps in post-processing, while definitely not losing bright areas of the frame. As an intermediate solution, I agree to live blinking highlights

Click to expand...

I have started shooting without exposure simulation to have the EVF bright enough for framing. Without exposure simulation, live histogram and highlight clipping are not possible.

Using my experience and predictable center-weighted metering, I can use the metering scale to dial in the exposure. Using image review, I checked whether I was off a lot. The most crucial element of any exposure is not to clip relevant highlights.

Click to expand...

I do this sometimes too, but this method takes up extra time and limits the scope of the camera to static scenes.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Is my impression correct that despite the X2D having phase-detection autofocus, it still does not offer continuous autofocus? If so, then:

* a Hasselblad defender might say that the X2D is focused (pun intended?) on a somewhat different and more limited use / market, and that any situation where an X2D is a good tool for the job is one where things like zebra stripes (does it offer those?) and histograms (does it offer raw histograms?) will be what the photographer uses to chose the ideal exposure, instead of having some matrix guess at it.

* A cynic might say that Hasselblad is so non-competitive technologically that it decided not to offer features that would be too far behind the competition's versions.

A realest tending a bit toward cynic (me) might suppose that there's some truth to both. But that's just my own personal opinion--I have no real insight.

Click to expand...

A photographer might say it fits my needs and how I choose to work — as they would about any make or model of any equipment they prefer.

Cameras don't need to be defended. They just need to be used by a photographer to create images. It's what they're all made to do.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

A camera should not be judged only by features that it offers, but it should be judged based on what capabilities and benefits it provides compared to both its competition and its price.

Click to expand...

That's what photographers do, but they arrive at different decisions...

NAwlins Contrarian said:

Some degree of continuous autofocus and/or better metering and/or better ability to manually set exposure would certainly increase the capabilities and provide benefits for uses that seem well within the X2D's reasonably-expected / intended use window.

Click to expand...

...and they define "better" based on their own personal use and experience.

NAwlins Contrarian said:

*Well, I remember many years ago reading an article in Shutterbug about shooting (American) football with a Hasselblad 503 or whatever and the 250 SA and 350 SA, and notwithstanding the author's 'Hey this kind-of works!' take, the whole exercise seemed silly to me.

Click to expand...

As the poet Sly Stone said...

Different strokes for different folks,
and so on, and so on, and scooby-dooby-dooby
We got to live together

SrMi said:

left eye said:

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Click to expand...

...many of their native lenses to achieve a relatively compact size and accommodate the leaf shutter mechanisms, have higher than average vignetting, this poses a tricky slider for matrix metering. Depending on aperture, the matrix metering math would be quite complex and need to be tailored to each lens, possible... but maybe a can of worms (unexpected exposure shifts), so best avoided, as they did.

Click to expand...

I doubt that the vignetting of the most recent lenses is related to it. Many FF cameras use matrix metering and still use lenses with heavy vignetting.

They probably think it is not that important, and I have rarely (never?) heard that X2D owners are missing it, except on a spec sheet.

Edit:

P.S.: Have you seen the uncorrected vignetting in GF 63? It still works with matrix metering.

Click to expand...

...Fuji has far more experience in programming. Part of the reason the ol'd stalwart HB shook hands with DJI was to up their game in tech. We wouldn't expect HB to suddenly rocket ahead to match Fuji in this respect, but it's getting there.

Without intending to sound arrogant, maybe Hasselblad assumed their users, being enthusiastic amateurs or professionals, would prefer to carry on their own tried and tested exposure calculating methods; the fact that the camera appealed to a much wider demographic was a possible surprise. Matrix exposure calculation would be a nice addition but not a necessary one. Flashing, over exposed- clipped, highlights during live viewing would be appreciated even more.

as1mov said:

Hi,

I was checking the options in the X2D menu and I was surprised to see that there is no matrix or full-scene metering.

Not that I miss it, but just curious, how does HB justify this choice?

Thanks.

Click to expand...

left eye said:

Part of the reason the ol'd stalwart HB shook hands with DJI was to up their game in tech.

Click to expand...

Hasselblad "shook hands with DJI" because the private equity company (Ventizz), which acquired Hasselblad in 2011 and rapidly mismanaged it into a cash burning financial disaster, sold their controlling interest to DJI. DJI invested in Hasselblad in 2015 and acquired it in 2017 to expand their portfolio of imaging products with a company in which they found a synergy to benefit both companies.