Odd Petzvals.

In a recent quest to find a lenses in my collection that produced "The Cooke Look", after many tries I came up with only one, a Ross 121mm f2.2 projection lens.

CAVEAT - What exactly "The Cooke Look" actually is seems to be proving to be variable and rather personal. For me, it is a "mistiness" in the OOF background that you sometimes see in movies shot with Cooke lenses, YMMV.

Disappointed with only a single candidate, I decided to have another bash and iterated through a load more of my old glass...

...and found another!

[ATTACH alt="I'm thinking the Cinestar has even more "misitness" than the Ross! Keen eyed viewers will notice that the gin level has dropped considerably since the last test ;O)"]3628600[/ATTACH]
I'm thinking the Cinestar has even more "misitness" than the Ross! Keen eyed viewers will notice that the gin level has dropped considerably since the last test ;O)

This time it was a Benoist Berthiot 110mm f2.0 Cinestar, and if anything, it had even more of the background mistiness than the Ross.

Now, I was wondering what characteristics these two lenses had in common, other than their misty bokeh.


The optical layout of my Ross, the Cinestar has a similar 5:3 design.

It turns out that these two lenses are the only ones in my fairly sizeable 35mm projection lens collection to have an extra fifth element added to their otherwise normal Petzval layout, making them both 5:3 designs.

I did wonder if this was simply an element number effect reducing contrast, but then I have also tested hods of 6:4 Double Gauss lenses such as Visionars and ISCOs, and a few unusual designs such as the odd 5:4 later Kalee Series "S" lenses. None of these had the misty look I was seeking.

So, now I'm wondering why the manufacturers added that fifth element, it is very unusual, I have many, many, Petzvals and these are the only lenses to have the extra element.

I have to say that the Cinestar has a very flat field for a Petzval, but this cannot be the intent as the Ross has very strong curvature.

Bosun Higgs said:

In a recent quest to find a lenses in my collection that produced "The Cooke Look", after many tries I came up with only one, a Ross 121mm f2.2 projection lens.

CAVEAT - What exactly "The Cooke Look" actually is seems to be proving to be variable and rather personal. For me, it is a "mistiness" in the OOF background that you sometimes see in movies shot with Cooke lenses, YMMV.

Disappointed with only a single candidate, I decided to have another bash and iterated through a load more of my old glass...

...and found another!

[ATTACH alt="I'm thinking the Cinestar has even more "misitness" than the Ross! Keen eyed viewers will notice that the gin level has dropped considerably since the last test ;O)"]3628600[/ATTACH]
I'm thinking the Cinestar has even more "misitness" than the Ross! Keen eyed viewers will notice that the gin level has dropped considerably since the last test ;O)

This time it was a Benoist Berthiot 110mm f2.0 Cinestar, and if anything, it had even more of the background mistiness than the Ross.

Now, I was wondering what characteristics these two lenses had in common, other than their misty bokeh.


The optical layout of my Ross, the Cinestar has a similar 5:3 design.

Click to expand...

This seems like a very good example - well done finding it! I've got a Cinestar recently as well, but a different one and likely also a different design. (I think it might be a 6 element lens) and also different speed, so I doubt it has the same look.

--
Experimenting manual lens enthusiast.

simple-joy said:

This seems like a very good example - well done finding it! I've got a Cinestar recently as well, but a different one and likely also a different design. (I think it might be a 6 element lens) and also different speed, so I doubt it has the same look.

Click to expand...

The plain Cinestars are quite old now, it is more common to see Neo Cinestars and Super Cinestars for sale. The Neos can be Speedics or Double Gauss, but all of the Supers I have seen are Double Gauss.

Trying to work out the ages, designs and aperture schemes for projection glass this old can be very confusing.

One of the things I keep an eye out for is old catalogues or price lists for projection lenses. There are quite few Dallmeyer catalogues around, but I have seen very little from other manufacturers.

I would love copies of Kershaw, Taylor Hobson, Officine Galileo and Benoist Berthiot catalogues from several decades, it would make deciphering the original schema behind the lenses that have survived much easier.

Bosun Higgs said:

simple-joy said:

This seems like a very good example - well done finding it! I've got a Cinestar recently as well, but a different one and likely also a different design. (I think it might be a 6 element lens) and also different speed, so I doubt it has the same look.

Click to expand...

The plain Cinestars are quite old now, it is more common to see Neo Cinestars and Super Cinestars for sale. The Neos can be Speedics or Double Gauss, but all of the Supers I have seen are Double Gauss.

Trying to work out the ages, designs and aperture schemes for projection glass this old can be very confusing.

One of the things I keep an eye out for is old catalogues or price lists for projection lenses. There are quite few Dallmeyer catalogues around, but I have seen very little from other manufacturers.

I would love copies of Kershaw, Taylor Hobson, Officine Galileo and Benoist Berthiot catalogues from several decades, it would make deciphering the original schema behind the lenses that have survived much easier.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the information. Is your Cinestar labeled GC? If so, do you know what it stands for?

simple-joy said:

Bosun Higgs said:

simple-joy said:

This seems like a very good example - well done finding it! I've got a Cinestar recently as well, but a different one and likely also a different design. (I think it might be a 6 element lens) and also different speed, so I doubt it has the same look.

Click to expand...

The plain Cinestars are quite old now, it is more common to see Neo Cinestars and Super Cinestars for sale. The Neos can be Speedics or Double Gauss, but all of the Supers I have seen are Double Gauss.

Trying to work out the ages, designs and aperture schemes for projection glass this old can be very confusing.

One of the things I keep an eye out for is old catalogues or price lists for projection lenses. There are quite few Dallmeyer catalogues around, but I have seen very little from other manufacturers.

I would love copies of Kershaw, Taylor Hobson, Officine Galileo and Benoist Berthiot catalogues from several decades, it would make deciphering the original schema behind the lenses that have survived much easier.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the information. Is your Cinestar labeled GC? If so, do you know what it stands for?

Click to expand...

None of my Cinestars of any flavour have GC marked on them.

My guess would be a reference to coating, perhaps in French?

Bosun Higgs said:

simple-joy said:

Bosun Higgs said:

simple-joy said:

This seems like a very good example - well done finding it! I've got a Cinestar recently as well, but a different one and likely also a different design. (I think it might be a 6 element lens) and also different speed, so I doubt it has the same look.

Click to expand...

The plain Cinestars are quite old now, it is more common to see Neo Cinestars and Super Cinestars for sale. The Neos can be Speedics or Double Gauss, but all of the Supers I have seen are Double Gauss.

Trying to work out the ages, designs and aperture schemes for projection glass this old can be very confusing.

One of the things I keep an eye out for is old catalogues or price lists for projection lenses. There are quite few Dallmeyer catalogues around, but I have seen very little from other manufacturers.

I would love copies of Kershaw, Taylor Hobson, Officine Galileo and Benoist Berthiot catalogues from several decades, it would make deciphering the original schema behind the lenses that have survived much easier.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the information. Is your Cinestar labeled GC? If so, do you know what it stands for?

Click to expand...

None of my Cinestars of any flavour have GC marked on them.

My guess would be a reference to coating, perhaps in French?

Click to expand...

Coating seems like a good guess, but I just found this explanation in one of the descriptions by french ebay seller "retrofocale" (who seems to know his stuff):

The "GC" serie means" Grand champ / Large Cover" was specially made for 70mm projection. These are high quality lenses with big coverage.

--
Experimenting manual lens enthusiast.

simple.joy

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simple-joy said:

Bosun Higgs said:

None of my Cinestars of any flavour have GC marked on them.

My guess would be a reference to coating, perhaps in French?

Click to expand...

Coating seems like a good guess, but I just found this explanation in one of the descriptions by french ebay seller "retrofocale" (who seems to know his stuff):

The "GC" serie means" Grand champ / Large Cover" was specially made for 70mm projection. These are high quality lenses with big coverage.

Click to expand...

Perhaps your Cinestar is a "stop gap" model, as the Super Cinestar range was specifically designed to handle 70mm film.

Is your Cinestar a Petzval, and does it have the extra fifth element?

simple-joy said:

Bosun Higgs said:

None of my Cinestars of any flavour have GC marked on them.

My guess would be a reference to coating, perhaps in French?

Click to expand...

Coating seems like a good guess, but I just found this explanation in one of the descriptions by french ebay seller "retrofocale" (who seems to know his stuff):

The "GC" serie means" Grand champ / Large Cover" was specially made for 70mm projection. These are high quality lenses with big coverage.

Click to expand...

I have just had a look at the "Retrofocale" Ebay shop, he has many Cinestars of all types, man, I was salivating, especially at the 90mm f1.65, but at the prices, not so much!

What is pertinent here is that he has quite a range of Cinestar GC lenses, and comparing these to my lenses, formwise and speedwise they are exact matches to my Super Cinestars of the same focal lengths.

All the Supers I have stripped are Double Gauss, so it is a safe bet that the GCs, including yours, will be too.

Bosun Higgs said:

I have just had a look at the "Retrofocale" Ebay shop, he has many Cinestars of all types, man, I was salivating, especially at the 90mm f1.65, but at the prices, not so much!

What is pertinent here is that he has quite a range of Cinestar GC lenses, and comparing these to my lenses, formwise and speedwise they are exact matches to my Super Cinestars of the same focal lengths.

All the Supers I have stripped are Double Gauss, so it is a safe bet that the GCs, including yours, will be too.

Click to expand...

Thanks for sharing that observation - I guess that might be it. I've been wondering why I haven't seen any faster Super-Cinestars, but they might just be rare enough for not having encountered one.

simple-joy said:

Coating seems like a good guess, but I just found this explanation in one of the descriptions by french ebay seller "retrofocale" (who seems to know his stuff):

The "GC" serie means" Grand champ / Large Cover" was specially made for 70mm projection. These are high quality lenses with big coverage.

Click to expand...

It looks as though there is more to the Cinestar GC story than first appeared.

At the moment there are two Cinestar GCs for sale on Ebay, both 85mm, but one is an f1.55 and the other an f1.75 .

Checking out the photos, the f1.55 obviously has a 62.5mm diameter tube, whereas the f1.75 has a smaller 52.5mm tube. I believe the 52.5mm diameter type is called the "mini version" by the Retrofocale seller.

It is quite a feat getting 70mm coverage out of a 52.5mm diameter tube, but the inevitable restriction on the front element size results in a smaller aperture compared to the 62.5mm versions at longer focal lengths.

Mind you, Berthiot are also not shy to tell outright lies about their lens' aperture. I have a 120mm Neo that is engraved "f2.1", but its front element diameter ensures that it cannot be faster than f2.55.

All of the longer Super Cinestars have 62.5mm tubes and their apertures exactly match those of the 62.5mm GCs at each focal length, which leads me to theorise that the Super range evolved out of the GCs.