Summary of HDR stills

I imagine his comment about photobooks was a counter to your "Only look at prints huh? That is really old-school but getting really hard to pull off." Photobooks show that people enjoy prints and provide a method of producing and viewing them on a larger scale than making individual prints.
Photobooks are popular now because people with phone cameras can print them easily and it is fun.
What on earth are you talking about man.

Steidl did put out that iDubai book of Joel Sternfeld's I guess.
I don't do it, but easily could because Teresa will let me have a normal size printer.

At that size, my 6K screen wins every time.
[Content deleted by moderator]

Look, I know there are some serious guys doing their own photo books at home, but it is mostly my next-door neighbor (Jane) doing a book of her Vegas trip on her 89-dollar Epson Costco printer. 😎

It was actually pretty cool. Old School vibe....

Edit later.... Why is (unknown member) in gray and you can't click on the name?

Someone closed their account.

--
Greg Johnson, San Antonio, Texas
https://www.flickr.com/photos/139148982@N02/albums
 
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The one thing screen related I do find I have a visceral issue with is the idea that 1:1 (100%) viewing is a legitimate end point. I can see why it could be (say, a gigapixel style image where the whole point is to scroll around a vast image at ever increasing levels of magnification) but for a 'serious' photographer who cares about and takes pains over the point composition, 1:1 viewing is like going to an Ansel Adams gallery and only viewing the prints through a loupe...you know, the suggestion that the thing that matters is ultimate pixel level detail, not the actual image content.
Of course, that is WAY off topic! :)

--Darin
 
I imagine his comment about photobooks was a counter to your "Only look at prints huh? That is really old-school but getting really hard to pull off." Photobooks show that people enjoy prints and provide a method of producing and viewing them on a larger scale than making individual prints.
Photobooks are popular now because people with phone cameras can print them easily and it is fun.
What on earth are you talking about man.

Steidl did put out that iDubai book of Joel Sternfeld's I guess.
I don't do it, but easily could because Teresa will let me have a normal size printer.

At that size, my 6K screen wins every time.
Look, I know there are some serious guys doing their own photo books at home, but it is mostly my next-door neighbor (Jane) doing a book of her Vegas trip on her 89-dollar Epson Costco printer. 😎

It was actually pretty cool. Old School vibe....
Surely, people who make photobooks are doing so through a service such as Blurb, Photobox, Saal Digital? That small printer is not going to get a look in.

--
2024: Awarded Royal Photographic Society LRPS Distinction
Photo of the day: https://whisperingcat.co.uk/wp/photo-of-the-day/
Website: http://www.whisperingcat.co.uk/
DPReview gallery: https://www.dpreview.com/galleries/0286305481
Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/davidmillier/ (very old!)
 
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GFX files hold up very well tom viewing at 2x res 2:1.
 
It seems that people are arguing past each other?

Here's my view:

1) For printing, you do not *need* an HDR monitor.
True.
You do not need a 4k monitor.
Maybe, but you might as well if you want to enjoy looking at your own photos.
You do not need a color-calibrated monitor.
Yes you do.
Actually, no. I've done this myself. The key idea is that even without a calibrated screen you are not flying blind! The screen not showing all of you shadow detail? The test print will reveal that. Print have a color cast that the screen does not show? Adjust the screen in the obvious way. It's inefficient and slower, but once you get used to it is not *that* inefficient and slow.
You don't even need a color monitor
That would be insanity.
(you could conceivably print color images with a black an white numbers using the numerical readout in Photoshop, etc, but I haven't done that myself). Heck, you probably don't even need a monitor. :)

If your monitor is there for printing then some of that stuff is nice and makes things more quick and efficient (and pleasant?) but good work can be done with the crudest of screens.

2) For viewing screen images at their utmost potential it is better to have an HDR screen and it is better to have a 4k screen and it's better to have a large HDR 4k screen.
Absolutely. Or 6K. But my 6K is not as good as some 4K monitors on HDR specs.
You don't need to have an 80" HDR 4k but it is generally a more satisfying experience than that same quality of screen on my iPhone.
80-inch OLED TVs are the bomb. I have one. LOL. You gotta see it to believe it.
I bought a 77" OLED during the pandemic since the kids came back home for a few months and we needed something to brighten things up. (See what I did there?) :)

Once you get used to it the more common 55" looks small. However, I do remember my poorer days when I was young watching foreign films on a little 13" tube and that was great--and I remember playing Maggot Brain when I was a kid, played from a crappy clock radio with my head (and radio) under the covers so I could turn it up "loud" at 2 a.m. when WMMS in Cleveland would broadcast it, and not wake my Dad. Those were the best times hearing it, despite the improvements in my sound systems over the years.
Which is not to say that small displays (like smaller prints) are not perfectly fine--
Maybe on a tablet. 15 inch on a laptop is OK but not great, even though while I'm traveling, I do all my editing on a 15-inch 4K Dell.
that would depend on the image and the photographer's aesthetic choices--but in broad brush strokes, bigger seems better.

(As an aside, talk about losing control of the size of your image playing an aesthetic role in image-making! I make an image for screen, and it is then shown on anything from a giant living room TV to a small phone? Wild.).

In any event, 1 & 2 co-exist and do not challenge each other in any real way. There is no conflict. There is nothing to argue about, as far as I can see. We just have to get our head around the concept of the screen image being a legitimate endpoint for image-making, something which after all of these years we have not accomplished.
You are making some great posts.
--Darin
 
The one thing screen related I do find I have a visceral issue with is the idea that 1:1 (100%) viewing is a legitimate end point. I can see why it could be (say, a gigapixel style image where the whole point is to scroll around a vast image at ever increasing levels of magnification) but for a 'serious' photographer who cares about and takes pains over the point composition, 1:1 viewing is like going to an Ansel Adams gallery and only viewing the prints through a loupe...you know, the suggestion that the thing that matters is ultimate pixel level detail, not the actual image content.
Of course, that is WAY off topic! :)
I feel that a lot of people who are bothered mainly about screen quality as the end point are people who scrutinise their images at 1:1 in order to ooh and ahh over the pixel detail and give peremptory interest to the image as a whole.

It's the "I'm impressed" mentality at work. It seems it is quite easy to 'impress' people with sharpness and clarity and rich contrast and saturation, but a lot harder to impress people with good content. The impressiveness of paper prints reached its zenith years ago so no one is impressed by prints. But screens...Bigger! Brighter! Sharper! More contrast! 3D, HDR, Stereo...There's loads of wiggle room left in that tech's development for more more more.

The problem becomes recognising where legitimate image quality has reached its natural end point and gimmickry is taking over. Everyone loves a good sideshow performance, at least for 5 minutes.
 
Edit later.... Why is (unknown member) in gray and you can't click on the name?
That's user Adam Kingston, as you can deduce from the comment threads in reply to his posts. Looks like he deleted his account? Hopefully not because of something we said! In any event, that's a Jim the MOD issue. :)

--Darin
 
You are absolutely right to say you do not need a calibrated monitor for printing.

I think it helps consistency a lot to have profiled printer/ink/paper rather than relying on the printer default settings but calibrating your monitor is different. It serves two purposes: it lets you know that the colour of your images in your editor will look reasonably similar to someone else who is using a colour managed workflow; and it speeds up the print production process. But as you say, even if your image looks very different on your screen to what it does coming out of the printer because your screen is not calibrated, you can still produce a fine print through the process of printing test prints until you get what you want.

And over time, you gradually learn how to adjust your edits away from what you see on screen to get the print you want. Screen calibration/profiling is a convenience and a time/material saver for printing, but not an essential.

It probably is essential if you are preparing files for someone else to print for you otherwise you will have no idea how to send them a correctly edited file.
 
The one thing screen related I do find I have a visceral issue with is the idea that 1:1 (100%) viewing is a legitimate end point. I can see why it could be (say, a gigapixel style image where the whole point is to scroll around a vast image at ever increasing levels of magnification) but for a 'serious' photographer who cares about and takes pains over the point composition, 1:1 viewing is like going to an Ansel Adams gallery and only viewing the prints through a loupe...you know, the suggestion that the thing that matters is ultimate pixel level detail, not the actual image content.
Of course, that is WAY off topic! :)
I feel that a lot of people who are bothered mainly about screen quality as the end point are people who scrutinise their images at 1:1 in order to ooh and ahh over the pixel detail and give peremptory interest to the image as a whole.
Well, its a photo gear board, of course, but there is a legitimate creative opportunity here is displaying images where you can have an image displayed on a smaller screen and at the same time be able to look at details--just in the same way I suspect that you do yourself at galleries and museums when you step closer and look at the image a foot or so away in order to see this details. Knowing that this is a possibility, a photographer can think about how to make the best use of that possibility.
It's the "I'm impressed" mentality at work. It seems it is quite easy to 'impress' people with sharpness and clarity and rich contrast and saturation, but a lot harder to impress people with good content. The impressiveness of paper prints reached its zenith years ago so no one is impressed by prints. But screens...Bigger! Brighter! Sharper! More contrast! 3D, HDR, Stereo...There's loads of wiggle room left in that tech's development for more more more.
People are the same all over, not just big screen owners. I'm sure you've noticed that the size of photographs in museums has grown quite large--so large (beyond 60" on a side) that in some cases only specialized photo labs can make such a print. And Taschen and others have been putting out (quite successfully) very large "Sumo" and special edition books that take two people to carry. None of that rules out works that are smaller--just be sure to recognize that smaller or larger are not in and of themselves advantages or disadvantages, just creative possibilities. Some images need to be small. Some need to be large. Some have more flexibility. There are no rules.
The problem becomes recognising where legitimate image quality has reached its natural end point and gimmickry is taking over. Everyone loves a good sideshow performance, at least for 5 minutes.
This is very pessimistic view. Maybe you are correct, but I see (along with the dumb stuff) the opportunity for much more. You don't think Ansel Adams, if he were still alive and working, would have his high-end screens and be producing HDR work? He was always interested in the newest technologies, I think, but always in the service of the expressiveness of the image.

Anyway, I think you've made clear that you aren't interested in HDR and that you print with the screen turned way down anyway to facilitate printing. That's fine. It's a big tent and there's no reason you have to be interested and to even think HDR is worthwhile. It's all good. Print images are not in a race with Display images. We're all on the same side in the pursuit of making good photographs.

--Darin
 
It probably is essential if you are preparing files for someone else to print for you otherwise you will have no idea how to send them a correctly edited file.
Even if you are printing it for them, in addition to the photo-editing, a calibrated screen would be essential--if you want to have any hope of making a profitable business out of it!

But for young artists or those who do not want or cannot afford the fancy stuff, good printing is still possible (though the extra paper and ink will cost you something...).

--Darin
 
Edit later.... Why is (unknown member) in gray and you can't click on the name?
That's user Adam Kingston, as you can deduce from the comment threads in reply to his posts. Looks like he deleted his account? Hopefully not because of something we said! In any event, that's a Jim the MOD issue. :)
Mods have no role to play in account deletions, except to notice when there is a pattern.

Jim, as a moderator.
 
The one thing screen related I do find I have a visceral issue with is the idea that 1:1 (100%) viewing is a legitimate end point. I can see why it could be (say, a gigapixel style image where the whole point is to scroll around a vast image at ever increasing levels of magnification) but for a 'serious' photographer who cares about and takes pains over the point composition, 1:1 viewing is like going to an Ansel Adams gallery and only viewing the prints through a loupe...you know, the suggestion that the thing that matters is ultimate pixel level detail, not the actual image content.
Of course, that is WAY off topic! :)
I feel that a lot of people who are bothered mainly about screen quality as the end point are people who scrutinise their images at 1:1 in order to ooh and ahh over the pixel detail and give peremptory interest to the image as a whole.
Well, its a photo gear board, of course, but there is a legitimate creative opportunity here is displaying images where you can have an image displayed on a smaller screen and at the same time be able to look at details--just in the same way I suspect that you do yourself at galleries and museums when you step closer and look at the image a foot or so away in order to see this details. Knowing that this is a possibility, a photographer can think about how to make the best use of that possibility.
It's the "I'm impressed" mentality at work. It seems it is quite easy to 'impress' people with sharpness and clarity and rich contrast and saturation, but a lot harder to impress people with good content. The impressiveness of paper prints reached its zenith years ago so no one is impressed by prints. But screens...Bigger! Brighter! Sharper! More contrast! 3D, HDR, Stereo...There's loads of wiggle room left in that tech's development for more more more.
People are the same all over, not just big screen owners. I'm sure you've noticed that the size of photographs in museums has grown quite large--so large (beyond 60" on a side) that in some cases only specialized photo labs can make such a print. And Taschen and others have been putting out (quite successfully) very large "Sumo" and special edition books that take two people to carry. None of that rules out works that are smaller--just be sure to recognize that smaller or larger are not in and of themselves advantages or disadvantages, just creative possibilities. Some images need to be small. Some need to be large. Some have more flexibility. There are no rules.
The problem becomes recognising where legitimate image quality has reached its natural end point and gimmickry is taking over. Everyone loves a good sideshow performance, at least for 5 minutes.
This is very pessimistic view. Maybe you are correct, but I see (along with the dumb stuff) the opportunity for much more. You don't think Ansel Adams, if he were still alive and working, would have his high-end screens and be producing HDR work? He was always interested in the newest technologies, I think, but always in the service of the expressiveness of the image.

Anyway, I think you've made clear that you aren't interested in HDR and that you print with the screen turned way down anyway to facilitate printing. That's fine. It's a big tent and there's no reason you have to be interested and to even think HDR is worthwhile. It's all good. Print images are not in a race with Display images. We're all on the same side in the pursuit of making good photographs.
I'm interested in the idea of HDR images or any tech that improves the experience. But I want to spend as little time as possible consuming images on very bright backlit screens because I find brightness tiring. I note that I'm fine with the shadows and midtones on screens, they seem similar to prints. it's the big jump in the brightness of the highlights I don't like. And it sounds like HDR works by making those highlights even brighter.
 
It probably is essential if you are preparing files for someone else to print for you otherwise you will have no idea how to send them a correctly edited file.
Even if you are printing it for them, in addition to the photo-editing, a calibrated screen would be essential--if you want to have any hope of making a profitable business out of it!
You can substitute expertise for WYSIWYG-ness. Not that I'm recommending it, but some of the old time scanner operators produced beautiful color work with a black and white monitor.
But for young artists or those who do not want or cannot afford the fancy stuff, good printing is still possible (though the extra paper and ink will cost you something...).
 
Edit later.... Why is (unknown member) in gray and you can't click on the name?
That's user Adam Kingston, as you can deduce from the comment threads in reply to his posts. Looks like he deleted his account? Hopefully not because of something we said! In any event, that's a Jim the MOD issue. :)
Mods have no role to play in account deletions, except to notice when there is a pattern.

Jim, as a moderator.
Gotcha, thanks. Wasn't sure if it was a user-chosen deletion or something else. Sorry to see him go.

--Darin
 
And it sounds like HDR works by making those highlights even brighter.
More precisely, it makes the highlights you never knew were there visible (and, thus, brighter than the old maximum for screen highlights). It's not so much brightening the screen as displaying previously unviewable highlights (without compressing them into a viewable range--all of the tones from SDR max down should, in theory, look the same as before). Again, hard to "get" unless you see it in person, as we've discussed.

I think you still won't like HDR--and that's ok! I still print and plan to forever.

--Darin
 
It probably is essential if you are preparing files for someone else to print for you otherwise you will have no idea how to send them a correctly edited file.
Even if you are printing it for them, in addition to the photo-editing, a calibrated screen would be essential--if you want to have any hope of making a profitable business out of it!
You can substitute expertise for WYSIWYG-ness. Not that I'm recommending it, but some of the old time scanner operators produced beautiful color work with a black and white monitor.
But for young artists or those who do not want or cannot afford the fancy stuff, good printing is still possible (though the extra paper and ink will cost you something...).
Sometimes I look in the mirror and think, "damn, I really know what I'm doing" and I'm very proud of myself and then I think of these other guys like the ones Jim is talking about and I think, "good god, I know nothing despite all my years of effort!"

Take home point: Don't look in the mirror.

--Darin
 
GFX files hold up very well tom viewing at 2x res 2:1.
Where they look the same in 4K as they'd look at 1:1 in 2K.
I've never *quite* understood why I'd want to view an image at 200% but anyways, slightly off topic:

When I have a library of mixed images with both GFX and X-Series (APS-C) files, when I'm going through them zooming in and out to 100% and I come to an X file and I hit zoom and it barely enlarges on my screen there is always this moment of confusion and I look at the keyboard and I double check the menu and then I realize it really is at 100%.

That makes me a little sad...

--Darin
 
GFX files hold up very well tom viewing at 2x res 2:1.
Where they look the same in 4K as they'd look at 1:1 in 2K.
I've never *quite* understood why I'd want to view an image at 200%
Pixel-level retouching.
but anyways, slightly off topic:

When I have a library of mixed images with both GFX and X-Series (APS-C) files, when I'm going through them zooming in and out to 100% and I come to an X file and I hit zoom and it barely enlarges on my screen there is always this moment of confusion and I look at the keyboard and I double check the menu and then I realize it really is at 100%.

That makes me a little sad...
I've been surprised at that with older files. First world problem.
 
GFX files hold up very well tom viewing at 2x res 2:1.
Where they look the same in 4K as they'd look at 1:1 in 2K.
I've never *quite* understood why I'd want to view an image at 200% but anyways, slightly off topic:
It is easier to evaluate sharpness and detail at 200% on a high-resolution monitor.
When I have a library of mixed images with both GFX and X-Series (APS-C) files, when I'm going through them zooming in and out to 100% and I come to an X file and I hit zoom and it barely enlarges on my screen there is always this moment of confusion and I look at the keyboard and I double check the menu and then I realize it really is at 100%.

That makes me a little sad...
 

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