stevenj2
Veteran Member
Your choice of what suits you. A few years more as transition to Z goes on, and DX (may) stay stale IMHO, 'something's gotta give.' , surely for many people.
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Future of Nikon Z APS- C Format Cameras ?
- Thread starter chrisD46
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EXPEED7 will be them taking the existing camera and updating last generation tech to current generation tech. That's an update. The fundamentals of the machine stays the same. Adding IBIS will be an upgrade. An IBIS'ed version of a Z50 will likely mean an increase in price for the additional part and make it a tier above the Z50. It no longer becomes a Z50.
Think a6700, a6600 and a6400. The a6600 is an a6400 but with IBIS for abit more. it is an upgrade. The a6700 is an update of the a6600. Take the a6600, update the sensor and processor and price point's more or less the same.
Then there's also Fujifilm. They've updated the X-T30 into the X-T30ii at around the price and kept it more or less the same camera. They've then later taken it and added IBIS and other stuff and added more to the price and called it the camera the X-T50. That's an upgrade.
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If your use tends towards telephoto use, and you are not superman anymore, DX is a valuable tool that and gives one no reason to use FF equipment unless they need the wide angle capabilities and need the mp's for wide angle.
bjn70
Veteran Member
I'm still using an iphone 6, on its second battery.
If I had the money to buy a new phone, I would rather spend it on a new camera body or lens.
Carpetrunner
Active member
I'm new here, I may have missed some details but here goes...
From an R&D perspective;
- I don'k know of any APS-C IBIS Nikon cameras, this would be a significant development, that doesn't fit with the marketing hints.
- ISBS adds ~100g and battery consumption (50 less shots?) - the z50-ii needs to keep its compactness <450g
- ISBS is required to enable focus point stabilisation - bummer I think focus point stabilisation is a winner
- A stacked sensor is only required for advanced video modes and would be significanty more expensive than BSI-CMOS, maybe a stacked sensor makes the other logic cheaper, but as others have noted it could be an EXPEED7 with a heap of spare processing grunt, higher video modes sap battery consumption
- The z50/30/Fc battery is relatively new and unlikely to be changed - this could actually be the real limiting factor for the Z50-ii
From a market perspective;
- Nikon need a 450g APS-C body to fill a market hole - for the [non-enthusiast] people who think that FF is too big/heavy for travel.
- ISBS is [thought to be] fragile and not suited to rough travel with inexperienced users
- zDX lenses I know of have optical stabilisation - no ISBS required, a couple of F-stops slower would be OK for the target market.
- The Z50-ii probably needs to be higher Mp to keep up with Sony/Fuji, but I can't see a market requirement for higher pixel density than FF.
- Enthusiasts using z APS-C can use z FF lenses if they want somethng faster, without stabilisation, utilising their experience - unlikely to drive a larger DX Z lens portfolio.
- Nikon have said that they don't do integrated flash any more - taking the pressure off the battery consumption - BUT without IBIS for FF lenses and slow DX VR lenses you are a little limited in low light and fillin - (maybe this is the real driver for ISBS?)
- USB-C connection with PD and shoot while charge.
- Matthew
bjn70
Veteran Member
Always has been? There was a time when Nikon only made DX sensors. There was a time when they promised that they would never make FF sensors.
I started with D70, D300 and D7200. Now I own and use D3300, D750 and D810. I'm reading this thread because I have interest in a Z50 or Z6II. I read other threads here saying a Z50 II is eminent, and maybe a Z80. I don't know, I was trying to determine what would be added to the Z50, or what a Z80 would have beyond the Z50. Of course the Z50 is relatively old and lots of aspects could receive slight upgrades, and probably should have already. Of course there isn't anything that DX can do that FF can't, except be a little smaller and cheaper, or a lot cheaper.
I did a test today to compare D3300, D750 and D810 in the type of use I do frequently. I was wanting to justify Z6II based on better results for this use case. I picked the lenses that I would use with either body, the settings, the subject, the lighting, etc. Results were close but the D3300 did very well which extrapolates to me saving money by buying a Z50. I could buy 2 used Z50 and have a little left over for the price of a single used Z6II.
The time when they made only DX sensors is when it was not feasible to make an FX sensor at a reasonable price. The D1 and D2 were DX. Then the D3 came out in 2007 and all the nice things made for DX (like lenses) went away. 6 years of making only DX for their best products, only because they had to. DX sensors of course drove their mass market products for another 10 years, but Nikon began moving out of that arena probably as early as 2015. By that time the mass market had halved in size.
I have no idea where you got your statement that Nikon at one time promised that they would never make FF sensors. They never kept their eyes off that goal.
I would look forward to a Z50ii, basically with Zf guts. For general photography, that would be more than adequate. There are the sports photogs and wildlifers who would dearly love a Z90 or at least a DX z6iii, but the price would be too dear.
Yep. If you don't need the AF or video functionality, Z50 is a sweet camera. Just quite old now. Like me.
Ha, I understand.Thanks, I'm aware. I just don't have a body I'm comfortable with (camera body, that is.
Nikon should now upgrade the Z50, Z5 and Z7II and maybe will introduce a new dx slim body ( Z70 ? ).
IMO the Z7II will be the last to update ( lure the people to the Z8 ! ), so I guess the ugrade Z5 -> Z5II and Z50->Z50II ( or a new dx Z70 with new technology based on the Z8 ? ) will be next , I hope soon...............
If I hadn't have physically lost it, I'd still be using my Galaxy S5. I know it's still possible because I ran into an older gal at Trader Joe's about a month ago, who was still using hers.
I miss that phone.
bjn70
Veteran Member
I primarily read this forum so it could have been here.
I'm trying to convince myself to buy one or come up with a good reason not to.
How about this - there are two more cameras Nikon has registered. Rumors suggest it's the z50ii and a super zoom replacement for the P900. Probably in the early Fall. If you're not in a rush, I'd wait a quarter.
John Gellings
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They will do the same thing they have always done. APSC is not their focus, but they will continue to have options for those who want them. It will not be the focus, ever.
John Gellings
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I highly doubt they feel that way about the Z7.
sirhawkeye64
Veteran Member
Lenses? we probably won't see too many more from Nikon, but for bodies, I'm thinking there will still be an updated Z50 or a new "Z80" performance body but that will be about it. I am not expecting much to be honest in the Z APSC line other than a new body at this point. They have most of the other FLs covered already, and what they are missing, Sigma (and maybe Tamron) will fill in the gaps.
I know this is probably not what people want to hear, but Nikon did make a clear point at the beginning that FF was going to be their focus. And with their acquisition of RED recently, that may have put the nail in the coffin for APSC, at least as we had hoped as it probably ate up some would-be funding for APSC.
In the end, and I've said this before, I think their primary goal with the APSC line was to get people into the FF line. People would get a Z50 and then either move to a Z5 or Z6 body at some point, or just stay with the Z50. But they weren't going to have the larger line-up like they did with the DSLRs with essentially 4 levels of APSC DSLRs.
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Sorry to digress away from A APS-C offerings - but a few months ago not knowing what Nikon's direction would be for new cameras - I came upon a deal for a "like new" Nikon APS-C DSLR D5500 + like new Nikkor 16-80mm f/2.8 f/4 combo . The D5500 had the 2nd best Nikon APS-C sensor (just a tick behind the D7200 sensor) and the Nikkor 16-80mm may be the best APS-C zoom Nikon created . The image quality is outstanding and the fully articulating rear screen of the D5500 provides interesting composition opportunities for street / documentary applications . If I do my part - the D5500 and Nikkor 16-80 can definitely "bring the damage" to a variety of scenes .
*I'm now waiting to see what Nikon will do / not do with releasing (or not) an FF Z7III for landscape usage but until that time comes , I'm learning how to get the most out of the D5500 + 16-80mm lens as both have again ben surprisingly good and a joy to use . Still , I cannot help believing Nikon just doesn't have the interest to explore the APS=C format further and bring along a "D500 Z equivalent" nor develop "S" level lenses for the APS-C format - you either switch to Fuji or Olympus Micro 4/3rds or you jump up to Nikon FF offerings .
*I'm now waiting to see what Nikon will do / not do with releasing (or not) an FF Z7III for landscape usage but until that time comes , I'm learning how to get the most out of the D5500 + 16-80mm lens as both have again ben surprisingly good and a joy to use . Still , I cannot help believing Nikon just doesn't have the interest to explore the APS=C format further and bring along a "D500 Z equivalent" nor develop "S" level lenses for the APS-C format - you either switch to Fuji or Olympus Micro 4/3rds or you jump up to Nikon FF offerings .
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The entry level segment is tiny. In 2023, only about 6 million ILCs were sold globally. That includes every camera sold to professionals and amateurs on every continent.
Anyone graduating from a phone to a separate camera is already an enthusiast. They're not buying based mostly on price anymore; they're researching features online and reading about comparisons and different lenses before buying. That's why all of the Z DX cameras have control layouts similar to the D7X00 line (dual control wheels, multiple fn buttons) rather than the D3X00/D5X00 lines.
I think there are good reasons for Nikon to maintain a few DX offerings because there are many good reasons an enthusiast or pro might want or need a smaller/lighter kit. There's a market there, but it's not huge, so the offering needs to be somewhat premium. The Zfc brought the premium style. It's time for Expeed 7 and IBIS in modern-styled DX.
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IBIS doesn't have to make a camera as heavy as you claim. The OM-D E-M10 IV has been around since 2020 with excellent IBIS in a 383 g body. The A6600 is APS-C with IBIS in a 503 g body. I think Nikon could aim for that range with IBIS in a DX body.
A stacked sensor would go in a bigger body for sure, if only to allow better cooling for video, which would make it more of a Z500 than Z50ii. I don't think we'll see that. If you want stacked, you buy the flagships, which for Nikon is Z8/9. If you want crop stacked, you're going to have to look at Fuji or OM.
People routinely buy extra batteries. I don't think battery capacity factors in here.
I don't see why this is for non-enthusiasts. I'm an enthusiast and I own a FF Nikon but I want a crop body to complement it because on some trips and outings I have to (or want to) pack lighter.
Only about 6 million ILCs are sold globally each year now. Everyone buying a camera, even a DX camera, is an enthusiast or a pro.
This is even more false than your previous claim about IBIS and weight. OM cameras all have IBIS and are considered the most rugged ILCs.
I agree with this. 24MP is a most. 20MP does sound too low to many buyers.
I think we will continue to see slow growth of the Z DX lens lineup with a lens or two each year. Or maybe Nikon will license Sigma to bring its fast zooms to DX.
For DX, I hope this is not true. A built-in flash is so useful for travel photography, because it saves a ton of weight and space versus external flash.
This is essential.
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Carpetrunner
Active member
My point is that IBIS has a weight cost, the a6700 is 78g lheavier than the a6400 and the X100vi is 43g heavier than the X100v. Sure Nikon can make an IBIS body for ~500g, but they will have to save weight somewhere else, which will add to development costs and make the inclusion of ISBS more expensive.
I think that anything less than 300 shots will be a deal breaker for the target market, and it will need 400 to be competitive. The present Z50 320 shots (and Zfc 300 shots) is considered to be too low by many - maybe it is just a number that is easy to compare?
I'm not sure that people who lugg around extra batteries (like you and me) are the target market - although maybe GoPro has desensitised the target market? you can't take a GoPro anywhere without half a dozen batteries
I'll go out on a limb here and define an "enthusiast" as a person who is prepared to lugg around a FF, 2 primes and a zoom (and extra batteries).
Sure there are enthusiasts that like a lighter street camera (like me) - they are lining up for a X000vi. I don't think the Z50 is targeted as a competitor to the X100vi - that's more of a Z90 market.
My wishlist is a Z50-ii with a pancake - this should be the same weight and nearly the same footprint as a X100vi.
The a6400/6300, X100V (without sensor shift IBIS) are definitely the preferred options over the a6700/6600, X100vi for bikepacking. Maybe the ruggedness of a camera needs to be proven?
Maybe the whole market for rough travel cameras runs on rumours and forum posts?
Sure OM has been making rugged IBIS APS-C cameras for a while and they are proven - but Nikon hasn't. A lighter body and sensor will result in higher accelerations/shocks that impact the robustness of sensor shift IBIS. There is quite a bit for Nikon to learn and they may not want to do that with an "entry level" camera.
I don't thnk Nikon has the appetite to produce fast DX lenses until a Z90 appears.
Yes, we all hope that Nikon and Sigma will be happy partners, until then I guess we will have to lug around the extra FF glass.
Both Nikon and Sigma will have to watch out for the Viltrox'es sneeking up on them!
- matthew
bjn70
Veteran Member
I don't think very many people can tell the difference, and if you're comparing 24MP full frame (WITH an AA filter) and 21MP APS-C (without an AA filter), the 21MP APS-C will likely look like it has better detail. Even knowing that, it still bothers me and it seems that Nikon took a step backwards when they released the D500.
Canon offers 24 MP and 33MP APS-C. Sony offers 24 and 26MP. Fuji has 26MP and 40MP. MP may not be the most important spec, but it is one of the first you see when you're shopping for a camera and Nikon APS-C is obviously behind all of the competition. More MPs are also so obviously useful for capturing additional detail and ability to crop.
When the headline specs put you behind, I'm not sure it will matter if your dynamic range is a half stop better or your kit lens a bit sharper because you're already crossed off the list due to lack of cropability and the customer is now comparing Sony, Fuji, and Canon.
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