M4/3 camera for CONTENT CREATORS

In addition to those, Panasonic are offering substantial discounts on some lenses if bought with the S9 - 35mm f1.8, 50mm f1.8 and 85mm f1.8. These lenses are a bit bigger than the SIgma f2 offerings, but the discount brings them under half the price.

Mark
I expect to see direct incentives on the S9 rather quickly. Telling that the Leica D-Lux 8 (also launched this week) already climbed to the top 10 on B&H best seller list whereas the S9 made a brief appearance in the top 30 but has quickly fallen to page 3. Panasonic needs to get in front of this quickly. Even the hard core Lumix promoters seem to struggle with recommending this.
That's interesting. What aspects of the S9 make Lumix promoters struggle to recommend it?
No EVF

No mechanical shutter

Slow read electronic shutter

No hot-shoe

No built in flash

No pancake AF lenses

No weather sealing

No headphone jack

Price similar to S5II in some markets
I think a lot of that doesn't have much of a negative impact for video use, which seems to be the target market. What are their opinions of it as a compact video tool?

Here's a comment about the S9 from Dpreview :

"The basic premise of the S9 is that it's designed to simplify and speed-up the social media workflow. The goal is to allow content creators to generate photos or videos ready to publish straight out of the camera without additional editing in other applications."l
Also from DPreview: "Panasonic says it expects people to use it for photos as much as they will for video."
I also believe buyers will use it for stills. I think a lot of people buy cameras that they won't use for the use case they're marketed for.
Which buyers?
Content creation is photos, audio, video, text and graphics. The S9 is trying to inject itself into a workflow that is dominated by mobile phones. A lost cause I fear.
That's a fair assessment. Then again the full frame sensor is a significant differentiator and publishing straight out of camera is a use case that I doubt everyone will want to use.
I don't think full frame is a significant differentiator to the billions of people pushing content daily from camera phones. The people who require extreme quality are already using interchangeable lens cameras, elaborate rigs, post production.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
Seamless does not exist.
There is a reason for the inverted commas; I was quoting Panasonic.
If Panasonic really believes that their cameras offer "seamless content creation" then that's an even bigger problem. How blind can they be?
Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket.
That's a lot of things in favour of the iPhone. Do you think iPhones are a better choice for video and photography than a m4/3 camera?
I think timely release of interesting content trumps sensor size every single time. No one outside of nerdy tech forums cares what device/size you use. Until the Panasonic's of the world realize this they will continue to fumble.
 
In addition to those, Panasonic are offering substantial discounts on some lenses if bought with the S9 - 35mm f1.8, 50mm f1.8 and 85mm f1.8. These lenses are a bit bigger than the SIgma f2 offerings, but the discount brings them under half the price.

Mark
I expect to see direct incentives on the S9 rather quickly. Telling that the Leica D-Lux 8 (also launched this week) already climbed to the top 10 on B&H best seller list whereas the S9 made a brief appearance in the top 30 but has quickly fallen to page 3. Panasonic needs to get in front of this quickly. Even the hard core Lumix promoters seem to struggle with recommending this.
That's interesting. What aspects of the S9 make Lumix promoters struggle to recommend it?
No EVF

No mechanical shutter

Slow read electronic shutter

No hot-shoe

No built in flash

No pancake AF lenses

No weather sealing

No headphone jack

Price similar to S5II in some markets
I think a lot of that doesn't have much of a negative impact for video use, which seems to be the target market. What are their opinions of it as a compact video tool?

Here's a comment about the S9 from Dpreview :

"The basic premise of the S9 is that it's designed to simplify and speed-up the social media workflow. The goal is to allow content creators to generate photos or videos ready to publish straight out of the camera without additional editing in other applications."l
Also from DPreview: "Panasonic says it expects people to use it for photos as much as they will for video."
I also believe buyers will use it for stills. I think a lot of people buy cameras that they won't use for the use case they're marketed for.
Which buyers?
Content creation is photos, audio, video, text and graphics. The S9 is trying to inject itself into a workflow that is dominated by mobile phones. A lost cause I fear.
That's a fair assessment. Then again the full frame sensor is a significant differentiator and publishing straight out of camera is a use case that I doubt everyone will want to use.
I don't think full frame is a significant differentiator to the billions of people pushing content daily from camera phones. The people who require extreme quality are already using interchangeable lens cameras, elaborate rigs, post production.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
Seamless does not exist.
There is a reason for the inverted commas; I was quoting Panasonic.
If Panasonic really believes that their cameras offer "seamless content creation" then that's an even bigger problem. How blind can they be?
Why do you think this whole S9 release focuses on the seamless auto-sync of video and stills from camera to phone?

Did you notice the very problem you're saying is a problem is a problem they say they're addressing with this release?

You're so focused on how Panasonic is blind that you seem completely deaf to the point of this launch.

It does need more evidence that the sync and seamlessness delivers on the promise but you're ignoring the promise that has been made. Completely and totally ignoring it.
Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket.
That's a lot of things in favour of the iPhone. Do you think iPhones are a better choice for video and photography than a m4/3 camera?
I think timely release of interesting content trumps sensor size every single time.
Yeah that is literally what this release is designed to address.

Maybe you missed that?
No one outside of nerdy tech forums cares what device/size you use.
So you speak for all creators and content consumers everywhere?
Until the Panasonic's of the world realize this they will continue to fumble.
By launching an iPhone of their own, I suppose?
 
Last edited:
Seamless does not exist. Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket
and by using your smartphone one can get the content out for viewing quickly and hassle free. Content is for viewing as close to real time as practical not archiving for the cloud or your hard drive

While you re fumbling round with your mft camera I have the content posted and out there
Exactly the issue. Some people just don't understand.
You're not wrong.
Cameras are increasingly niche use. I do so much with an iPhone now. Sometimes I don't even bring a camera - just snap and post from my phone. Why? Because it works.
 
Last edited:
In addition to those, Panasonic are offering substantial discounts on some lenses if bought with the S9 - 35mm f1.8, 50mm f1.8 and 85mm f1.8. These lenses are a bit bigger than the SIgma f2 offerings, but the discount brings them under half the price.

Mark
I expect to see direct incentives on the S9 rather quickly. Telling that the Leica D-Lux 8 (also launched this week) already climbed to the top 10 on B&H best seller list whereas the S9 made a brief appearance in the top 30 but has quickly fallen to page 3. Panasonic needs to get in front of this quickly. Even the hard core Lumix promoters seem to struggle with recommending this.
That's interesting. What aspects of the S9 make Lumix promoters struggle to recommend it?
No EVF

No mechanical shutter

Slow read electronic shutter

No hot-shoe

No built in flash

No pancake AF lenses

No weather sealing

No headphone jack

Price similar to S5II in some markets
I think a lot of that doesn't have much of a negative impact for video use, which seems to be the target market. What are their opinions of it as a compact video tool?

Here's a comment about the S9 from Dpreview :

"The basic premise of the S9 is that it's designed to simplify and speed-up the social media workflow. The goal is to allow content creators to generate photos or videos ready to publish straight out of the camera without additional editing in other applications."l
Also from DPreview: "Panasonic says it expects people to use it for photos as much as they will for video."
I also believe buyers will use it for stills. I think a lot of people buy cameras that they won't use for the use case they're marketed for.
Which buyers?
Content creation is photos, audio, video, text and graphics. The S9 is trying to inject itself into a workflow that is dominated by mobile phones. A lost cause I fear.
That's a fair assessment. Then again the full frame sensor is a significant differentiator and publishing straight out of camera is a use case that I doubt everyone will want to use.
I don't think full frame is a significant differentiator to the billions of people pushing content daily from camera phones. The people who require extreme quality are already using interchangeable lens cameras, elaborate rigs, post production.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
Seamless does not exist.
There is a reason for the inverted commas; I was quoting Panasonic.
If Panasonic really believes that their cameras offer "seamless content creation" then that's an even bigger problem. How blind can they be?
Panasonic have released a new app called LumixLab alongside the S9. "From shooting to posting in 30 seconds: The total time it takes to transfer a JPEG photo or a 5-second short video shot." I'm quoting Panasonic.
Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket.
That's a lot of things in favour of the iPhone. Do you think iPhones are a better choice for video and photography than a m4/3 camera?
I think timely release of interesting content trumps sensor size every single time.
I get the impression that timely release is what Panasonic has in mind.
No one outside of nerdy tech forums cares what device/size you use. Until the Panasonic's of the world realize this they will continue to fumble.
 
Last edited:
Well maybe we will get the best of both worlds:

An increasingly more sophisticated G100 type series.

An S9 with a 25mp PDAF 4/3 sensor.

Both replacing the GX9.

I note that the G9II at launch was selling for more than the street pice of the S5II and even the S5IIx. This would hardly predict that the M4/3 version of the S9 would be any cheaper than the S9 itself.

I chose the G9II simply because i have this wonderful collection of M4/3 mount capable lenses that I really adore.

But I have a small foot in the L-Mount camp with a S1 which I use with a historic collection of adapted EF and Legacy MF lenses. I don't want to start yet another collection of lenses solely for L-Mount. Never ever ....

If I were to experiment with a S9-type camera body I would need to see it at affordable-experiment level pricing. Something like my G100 experience. I am not really into taking financial risks for the benefit of others. Weighing the scales the FF-sensor S9 would be more attractive to me than a 4/3-sensor S9. Neither body without evf attracts much but I could see myself heading back to the early heady days of the GM1 where I resolved the bright light situation by making myself a VEfinder device so that I could use the ambient light effect enabling the lcd to be seen clearly as a make-do evf. All I would need for the S9 would be another stub mount to fit on the tripod shoe.

This type of makeshift evf works fine for frame/check-focus but would drive lcd purists stark raving.

It is effectively an Open Loupe version of those huge Closed Loupe contraptions. The Open Loupe (VEfinder) gives 80% of the benefit and can be made "clip-on" and then folded and pocketed when not needed.

Will the S9 see a proliferation of closed loop abominations that sprouted when the dslr mob "invented" Live-View? Seems pretty silly to make a compact camera body like the S9 then add a huge Closed Loupe because the lcd was unusable in bright light.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
In a word - no.
So do you think Panasonic m4/3 users who would welcome such a camera should give up on Panasonic m4/3 and switch to another system?
You asked me for my personal opinion - I gave it. I also gave a sermon on my reasoning which is related to my personal opinion. Others are free to use their own personal preferences I have no opinion on what others might choose to welcome.
Not for me personally, others might like such a thing.

I sill have my GM1 camera bodies that have no evf and can be used with small lenses for less serious stills work but I have fitted them up with VEfinder stub mounts to which my device clicks on in an instant. Then I just frame focus through the VEfinder lens and the lcd effectively acts like a large evf. The stance and grip mimics the traditional grip: eye to evf/VEf, left hand under lens to grip and right hand works the body grip and shutter button.

My idea was with a S9 as I already have all the camera body stock that I could possibly need in M4/3 mount. If I want horsepower: G9 or G9II. If I want light and fairly compact: the G100 or GM5

My idea was with L-Mount where I only have the rather large S1 (I am happy with it). I would use a S9 as an experiment and fit a VEfinder stub mount to it so that I could use the lcd as a form of evf like I have happily done with the GM1, Pentax Q, and Ricoh GXR - all camera bodies basically sold without an evf that can be used easily with an open loupe to get the added benefit of an easy-convertion to much of the benefits of a camera body that had an evf.

The GXR type did have a clip-on evf but I found that it seemed always to have been left back at base whilst my VEfinder, when folded, fitted easily in a corner of a bag or simply in a pocket.

Here it is yet again - simple and sweet*

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59525486

* those that like great big clear evf units will not be impressed, but for those that just need a handy device to convert their lcd into a usable evf for framing and focus checking could find this handy. I only made this for my own pleasure after about 14 prototypes.

There is/was a similar commercially made device called a Clearviewer.

These devices focus your eye on the light being emitted from the lcd and disregard the external ambient light. It is quite remarkable how it works. Those that complain about not being able to see the lcd in bright sunlight tend to blame it on glare. But it is not the glare that is to blame it is that the ambient bright sunlight that shrinks our pupil and the light emitted from the lcd is not strong enough to compete. The loupe works even if it is an open type as your pupil will now get most of its eeen light off the lcd alone. There is also some glare that only a close loupe can eliminate but glare is not as big a deal as popular legend portrays it.

The open loupe is quite compact and can be folded when not in use. The closed loupe is huge.

My VEfinder was an invention of necessity 10 years ago but has gone into recess since my new gear has always had usable evf units since.
 
Seamless does not exist. Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket
and by using your smartphone one can get the content out for viewing quickly and hassle free. Content is for viewing as close to real time as practical not archiving for the cloud or your hard drive

While you re fumbling round with your mft camera I have the content posted and out there
I am just wondering what kind of important content you are creating that needs to be "posted and out there" so quickly?
 
I think the question is have Panasonic improved the process of getting images from camera to phone so that it is easy and reliable. Can I take a picture in a Cafe and get it posted in a minute and not be saying to my mates, sorry still waiting for this to connect/transfer.
 
> It does need more evidence that the sync and seamlessness delivers on the promise

Indeed. In my experience the existing Panasonic Image app never delivered on its promises. Perhaps Panasonic Sync does better, but it isn't compatible with my GX9.

Mark
 
> It does need more evidence that the sync and seamlessness delivers on the promise

Indeed. In my experience the existing Panasonic Image app never delivered on its promises. Perhaps Panasonic Sync does better, but it isn't compatible with my GX9.
The Panasonic Sync app is better/more reliable than the Panasonic Image app. The new Lumix Lab app looks better again based on what I've seen online, hope that's the case when I try it out.
 
Well maybe we will get the best of both worlds:

An increasingly more sophisticated G100 type series.

An S9 with a 25mp PDAF 4/3 sensor.

Both replacing the GX9.

I note that the G9II at launch was selling for more than the street pice of the S5II and even the S5IIx. This would hardly predict that the M4/3 version of the S9 would be any cheaper than the S9 itself.

I chose the G9II simply because i have this wonderful collection of M4/3 mount capable lenses that I really adore.

But I have a small foot in the L-Mount camp with a S1 which I use with a historic collection of adapted EF and Legacy MF lenses. I don't want to start yet another collection of lenses solely for L-Mount. Never ever ....

If I were to experiment with a S9-type camera body I would need to see it at affordable-experiment level pricing. Something like my G100 experience. I am not really into taking financial risks for the benefit of others. Weighing the scales the FF-sensor S9 would be more attractive to me than a 4/3-sensor S9. Neither body without evf attracts much but I could see myself heading back to the early heady days of the GM1 where I resolved the bright light situation by making myself a VEfinder device so that I could use the ambient light effect enabling the lcd to be seen clearly as a make-do evf. All I would need for the S9 would be another stub mount to fit on the tripod shoe.

This type of makeshift evf works fine for frame/check-focus but would drive lcd purists stark raving.

It is effectively an Open Loupe version of those huge Closed Loupe contraptions. The Open Loupe (VEfinder) gives 80% of the benefit and can be made "clip-on" and then folded and pocketed when not needed.

Will the S9 see a proliferation of closed loop abominations that sprouted when the dslr mob "invented" Live-View? Seems pretty silly to make a compact camera body like the S9 then add a huge Closed Loupe because the lcd was unusable in bright light.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
In a word - no.
So do you think Panasonic m4/3 users who would welcome such a camera should give up on Panasonic m4/3 and switch to another system?
You asked me for my personal opinion - I gave it.
You did, however I didn't expect you would think that I was asking if you would welcome such a camera as an addition to your personal camera collection for use with your VEfinder. So for clarity I'm asking if you would welcome such camera into the m4/3 system as a competent 'enthusiast' level option (for anyone who shoots video and/or stills). I would also clarify that I'm not suggesting it has to be a repurposed S9 without an EVF, but it could be a similar size allowing enough surface area for useful external controls.
I also gave a sermon on my reasoning which is related to my personal opinion. Others are free to use their own personal preferences I have no opinion on what others might choose to welcome.
Not for me personally, others might like such a thing.

I sill have my GM1 camera bodies that have no evf and can be used with small lenses for less serious stills work but I have fitted them up with VEfinder stub mounts to which my device clicks on in an instant. Then I just frame focus through the VEfinder lens and the lcd effectively acts like a large evf. The stance and grip mimics the traditional grip: eye to evf/VEf, left hand under lens to grip and right hand works the body grip and shutter button.

My idea was with a S9 as I already have all the camera body stock that I could possibly need in M4/3 mount. If I want horsepower: G9 or G9II. If I want light and fairly compact: the G100 or GM5

My idea was with L-Mount where I only have the rather large S1 (I am happy with it). I would use a S9 as an experiment and fit a VEfinder stub mount to it so that I could use the lcd as a form of evf like I have happily done with the GM1, Pentax Q, and Ricoh GXR - all camera bodies basically sold without an evf that can be used easily with an open loupe to get the added benefit of an easy-convertion to much of the benefits of a camera body that had an evf.

The GXR type did have a clip-on evf but I found that it seemed always to have been left back at base whilst my VEfinder, when folded, fitted easily in a corner of a bag or simply in a pocket.

Here it is yet again - simple and sweet*

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59525486

* those that like great big clear evf units will not be impressed, but for those that just need a handy device to convert their lcd into a usable evf for framing and focus checking could find this handy. I only made this for my own pleasure after about 14 prototypes.

There is/was a similar commercially made device called a Clearviewer.

These devices focus your eye on the light being emitted from the lcd and disregard the external ambient light. It is quite remarkable how it works. Those that complain about not being able to see the lcd in bright sunlight tend to blame it on glare. But it is not the glare that is to blame it is that the ambient bright sunlight that shrinks our pupil and the light emitted from the lcd is not strong enough to compete. The loupe works even if it is an open type as your pupil will now get most of its eeen light off the lcd alone. There is also some glare that only a close loupe can eliminate but glare is not as big a deal as popular legend portrays it.

The open loupe is quite compact and can be folded when not in use. The closed loupe is huge.

My VEfinder was an invention of necessity 10 years ago but has gone into recess since my new gear has always had usable evf units since.
--
Tom Caldwell
 
Last edited:
Well maybe we will get the best of both worlds:

An increasingly more sophisticated G100 type series.

An S9 with a 25mp PDAF 4/3 sensor.

Both replacing the GX9.

I note that the G9II at launch was selling for more than the street pice of the S5II and even the S5IIx. This would hardly predict that the M4/3 version of the S9 would be any cheaper than the S9 itself.

I chose the G9II simply because i have this wonderful collection of M4/3 mount capable lenses that I really adore.

But I have a small foot in the L-Mount camp with a S1 which I use with a historic collection of adapted EF and Legacy MF lenses. I don't want to start yet another collection of lenses solely for L-Mount. Never ever ....

If I were to experiment with a S9-type camera body I would need to see it at affordable-experiment level pricing. Something like my G100 experience. I am not really into taking financial risks for the benefit of others. Weighing the scales the FF-sensor S9 would be more attractive to me than a 4/3-sensor S9. Neither body without evf attracts much but I could see myself heading back to the early heady days of the GM1 where I resolved the bright light situation by making myself a VEfinder device so that I could use the ambient light effect enabling the lcd to be seen clearly as a make-do evf. All I would need for the S9 would be another stub mount to fit on the tripod shoe.

This type of makeshift evf works fine for frame/check-focus but would drive lcd purists stark raving.

It is effectively an Open Loupe version of those huge Closed Loupe contraptions. The Open Loupe (VEfinder) gives 80% of the benefit and can be made "clip-on" and then folded and pocketed when not needed.

Will the S9 see a proliferation of closed loop abominations that sprouted when the dslr mob "invented" Live-View? Seems pretty silly to make a compact camera body like the S9 then add a huge Closed Loupe because the lcd was unusable in bright light.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
In a word - no.
So do you think Panasonic m4/3 users who would welcome such a camera should give up on Panasonic m4/3 and switch to another system?
You asked me for my personal opinion - I gave it.
You did, however I didn't expect you would think that I was asking if you would welcome such a camera as an addition to your personal camera collection for use with your VEfinder. So for clarity I'm asking if you would welcome such camera into the m4/3 system as a competent 'enthusiast' level option (for anyone who shoots video and/or stills). I would also clarify that I'm not suggesting it has to be a repurposed S9 without an EVF, but it could be a similar size allowing enough surface area for useful external controls.
Yes go for it. If Panasonic is game to make one then a lot of M4/3 users might be game enough to buy them. It is easy to welcome something that you have no intention of buying yourself.

Bear in mind the G100 languished a bit whilst everybody thought that it was for entry level video and only seems to have risen a bit like Lazarus when seen as an affordable smallish stills camera. Maybe by pushing a 4/3 S9 it will find a ready market when sold to those that wish to do more up-market video and don't chose to buy a L-Mount S9 for what is likely to be much the same price.

Yes I would welcome this camera type to M4/3 for the benefit of those that really would like to buy such a camera even though I have no present interest in obtaining one myself.

As a confirmed user of the GM5 type I a have found its surface area quite sufficient for all the external controls I need to drive one. Very much assisted by the usual excellent Panasonic touch screen evf which includes five extra configurable soft function keys.

But an S9 body would be fine even if I would prefer them to work on a version of the G100 that includes as much to the S9 goodies that could be fitted in.
I also gave a sermon on my reasoning which is related to my personal opinion. Others are free to use their own personal preferences I have no opinion on what others might choose to welcome.
Not for me personally, others might like such a thing.

I sill have my GM1 camera bodies that have no evf and can be used with small lenses for less serious stills work but I have fitted them up with VEfinder stub mounts to which my device clicks on in an instant. Then I just frame focus through the VEfinder lens and the lcd effectively acts like a large evf. The stance and grip mimics the traditional grip: eye to evf/VEf, left hand under lens to grip and right hand works the body grip and shutter button.

My idea was with a S9 as I already have all the camera body stock that I could possibly need in M4/3 mount. If I want horsepower: G9 or G9II. If I want light and fairly compact: the G100 or GM5

My idea was with L-Mount where I only have the rather large S1 (I am happy with it). I would use a S9 as an experiment and fit a VEfinder stub mount to it so that I could use the lcd as a form of evf like I have happily done with the GM1, Pentax Q, and Ricoh GXR - all camera bodies basically sold without an evf that can be used easily with an open loupe to get the added benefit of an easy-convertion to much of the benefits of a camera body that had an evf.

The GXR type did have a clip-on evf but I found that it seemed always to have been left back at base whilst my VEfinder, when folded, fitted easily in a corner of a bag or simply in a pocket.

Here it is yet again - simple and sweet*

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59525486

* those that like great big clear evf units will not be impressed, but for those that just need a handy device to convert their lcd into a usable evf for framing and focus checking could find this handy. I only made this for my own pleasure after about 14 prototypes.

There is/was a similar commercially made device called a Clearviewer.

These devices focus your eye on the light being emitted from the lcd and disregard the external ambient light. It is quite remarkable how it works. Those that complain about not being able to see the lcd in bright sunlight tend to blame it on glare. But it is not the glare that is to blame it is that the ambient bright sunlight that shrinks our pupil and the light emitted from the lcd is not strong enough to compete. The loupe works even if it is an open type as your pupil will now get most of its eeen light off the lcd alone. There is also some glare that only a close loupe can eliminate but glare is not as big a deal as popular legend portrays it.

The open loupe is quite compact and can be folded when not in use. The closed loupe is huge.

My VEfinder was an invention of necessity 10 years ago but has gone into recess since my new gear has always had usable evf units since.
 
Well maybe we will get the best of both worlds:

An increasingly more sophisticated G100 type series.

An S9 with a 25mp PDAF 4/3 sensor.

Both replacing the GX9.

I note that the G9II at launch was selling for more than the street pice of the S5II and even the S5IIx. This would hardly predict that the M4/3 version of the S9 would be any cheaper than the S9 itself.

I chose the G9II simply because i have this wonderful collection of M4/3 mount capable lenses that I really adore.

But I have a small foot in the L-Mount camp with a S1 which I use with a historic collection of adapted EF and Legacy MF lenses. I don't want to start yet another collection of lenses solely for L-Mount. Never ever ....

If I were to experiment with a S9-type camera body I would need to see it at affordable-experiment level pricing. Something like my G100 experience. I am not really into taking financial risks for the benefit of others. Weighing the scales the FF-sensor S9 would be more attractive to me than a 4/3-sensor S9. Neither body without evf attracts much but I could see myself heading back to the early heady days of the GM1 where I resolved the bright light situation by making myself a VEfinder device so that I could use the ambient light effect enabling the lcd to be seen clearly as a make-do evf. All I would need for the S9 would be another stub mount to fit on the tripod shoe.

This type of makeshift evf works fine for frame/check-focus but would drive lcd purists stark raving.

It is effectively an Open Loupe version of those huge Closed Loupe contraptions. The Open Loupe (VEfinder) gives 80% of the benefit and can be made "clip-on" and then folded and pocketed when not needed.

Will the S9 see a proliferation of closed loop abominations that sprouted when the dslr mob "invented" Live-View? Seems pretty silly to make a compact camera body like the S9 then add a huge Closed Loupe because the lcd was unusable in bright light.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
In a word - no.
So do you think Panasonic m4/3 users who would welcome such a camera should give up on Panasonic m4/3 and switch to another system?
You asked me for my personal opinion - I gave it.
You did, however I didn't expect you would think that I was asking if you would welcome such a camera as an addition to your personal camera collection for use with your VEfinder. So for clarity I'm asking if you would welcome such camera into the m4/3 system as a competent 'enthusiast' level option (for anyone who shoots video and/or stills). I would also clarify that I'm not suggesting it has to be a repurposed S9 without an EVF, but it could be a similar size allowing enough surface area for useful external controls.
Yes
Thanks.
go for it. If Panasonic is game to make one then a lot of M4/3 users might be game enough to buy them. It is easy to welcome something that you have no intention of buying yourself.

Bear in mind the G100 languished a bit whilst everybody thought that it was for entry level video and only seems to have risen a bit like Lazarus when seen as an affordable smallish stills camera. Maybe by pushing a 4/3 S9 it will find a ready market when sold to those that wish to do more up-market video and don't chose to buy a L-Mount S9 for what is likely to be much the same price.

Yes I would welcome this camera type to M4/3 for the benefit of those that really would like to buy such a camera even though I have no present interest in obtaining one myself.

As a confirmed user of the GM5 type I a have found its surface area quite sufficient for all the external controls I need to drive one. Very much assisted by the usual excellent Panasonic touch screen evf which includes five extra configurable soft function keys.

But an S9 body would be fine even if I would prefer them to work on a version of the G100 that includes as much to the S9 goodies that could be fitted in.
I also gave a sermon on my reasoning which is related to my personal opinion. Others are free to use their own personal preferences I have no opinion on what others might choose to welcome.
Not for me personally, others might like such a thing.

I sill have my GM1 camera bodies that have no evf and can be used with small lenses for less serious stills work but I have fitted them up with VEfinder stub mounts to which my device clicks on in an instant. Then I just frame focus through the VEfinder lens and the lcd effectively acts like a large evf. The stance and grip mimics the traditional grip: eye to evf/VEf, left hand under lens to grip and right hand works the body grip and shutter button.

My idea was with a S9 as I already have all the camera body stock that I could possibly need in M4/3 mount. If I want horsepower: G9 or G9II. If I want light and fairly compact: the G100 or GM5

My idea was with L-Mount where I only have the rather large S1 (I am happy with it). I would use a S9 as an experiment and fit a VEfinder stub mount to it so that I could use the lcd as a form of evf like I have happily done with the GM1, Pentax Q, and Ricoh GXR - all camera bodies basically sold without an evf that can be used easily with an open loupe to get the added benefit of an easy-convertion to much of the benefits of a camera body that had an evf.

The GXR type did have a clip-on evf but I found that it seemed always to have been left back at base whilst my VEfinder, when folded, fitted easily in a corner of a bag or simply in a pocket.

Here it is yet again - simple and sweet*

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/59525486

* those that like great big clear evf units will not be impressed, but for those that just need a handy device to convert their lcd into a usable evf for framing and focus checking could find this handy. I only made this for my own pleasure after about 14 prototypes.

There is/was a similar commercially made device called a Clearviewer.

These devices focus your eye on the light being emitted from the lcd and disregard the external ambient light. It is quite remarkable how it works. Those that complain about not being able to see the lcd in bright sunlight tend to blame it on glare. But it is not the glare that is to blame it is that the ambient bright sunlight that shrinks our pupil and the light emitted from the lcd is not strong enough to compete. The loupe works even if it is an open type as your pupil will now get most of its eeen light off the lcd alone. There is also some glare that only a close loupe can eliminate but glare is not as big a deal as popular legend portrays it.

The open loupe is quite compact and can be folded when not in use. The closed loupe is huge.

My VEfinder was an invention of necessity 10 years ago but has gone into recess since my new gear has always had usable evf units since.
--
Tom Caldwell
 
In addition to those, Panasonic are offering substantial discounts on some lenses if bought with the S9 - 35mm f1.8, 50mm f1.8 and 85mm f1.8. These lenses are a bit bigger than the SIgma f2 offerings, but the discount brings them under half the price.

Mark
I expect to see direct incentives on the S9 rather quickly. Telling that the Leica D-Lux 8 (also launched this week) already climbed to the top 10 on B&H best seller list whereas the S9 made a brief appearance in the top 30 but has quickly fallen to page 3. Panasonic needs to get in front of this quickly. Even the hard core Lumix promoters seem to struggle with recommending this.
That's interesting. What aspects of the S9 make Lumix promoters struggle to recommend it?
No EVF

No mechanical shutter

Slow read electronic shutter

No hot-shoe

No built in flash

No pancake AF lenses

No weather sealing

No headphone jack

Price similar to S5II in some markets
I think a lot of that doesn't have much of a negative impact for video use, which seems to be the target market. What are their opinions of it as a compact video tool?

Here's a comment about the S9 from Dpreview :

"The basic premise of the S9 is that it's designed to simplify and speed-up the social media workflow. The goal is to allow content creators to generate photos or videos ready to publish straight out of the camera without additional editing in other applications."l
Also from DPreview: "Panasonic says it expects people to use it for photos as much as they will for video."
I also believe buyers will use it for stills. I think a lot of people buy cameras that they won't use for the use case they're marketed for.
Which buyers?
Content creation is photos, audio, video, text and graphics. The S9 is trying to inject itself into a workflow that is dominated by mobile phones. A lost cause I fear.
That's a fair assessment. Then again the full frame sensor is a significant differentiator and publishing straight out of camera is a use case that I doubt everyone will want to use.
I don't think full frame is a significant differentiator to the billions of people pushing content daily from camera phones. The people who require extreme quality are already using interchangeable lens cameras, elaborate rigs, post production.
So would you welcome a new reasonably compact m4/3 camera for "Seamless Content Creation" with a good balance of features that makes it a competent performer for video content creators while not imposing cost saving limitations on stills shooting usability?
Seamless does not exist.
There is a reason for the inverted commas; I was quoting Panasonic.
If Panasonic really believes that their cameras offer "seamless content creation" then that's an even bigger problem. How blind can they be?
Why do you think this whole S9 release focuses on the seamless auto-sync of video and stills from camera to phone?
It actually doesn't. That's the point. Nothing about it is auto or seamless.
Did you notice the very problem you're saying is a problem is a problem they say they're addressing with this release?

You're so focused on how Panasonic is blind that you seem completely deaf to the point of this launch.
Because there is no point to it. They are looking for a market that has no interest in their product.
It does need more evidence that the sync and seamlessness delivers on the promise but you're ignoring the promise that has been made. Completely and totally ignoring it.
They can promise the world but they failed to deliver. That is why the reception was so poor.
Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket.
That's a lot of things in favour of the iPhone. Do you think iPhones are a better choice for video and photography than a m4/3 camera?
I think timely release of interesting content trumps sensor size every single time.
Yeah that is literally what this release is designed to address.

Maybe you missed that?
It doesn't address this. Maybe you missed that.
No one outside of nerdy tech forums cares what device/size you use.
So you speak for all creators and content consumers everywhere?
Prove me wrong.
Until the Panasonic's of the world realize this they will continue to fumble.
By launching an iPhone of their own, I suppose?
Which is to say they will continue to fumble.
 
If Panasonic really believes that their cameras offer "seamless content creation" then that's an even bigger problem. How blind can they be?
Why do you think this whole S9 release focuses on the seamless auto-sync of video and stills from camera to phone?
It actually doesn't. That's the point. Nothing about it is auto or seamless.
Have you actually used the Lumix Lab app? Or even seen what it is purported to do?

You claim again and again and again that the app doesn't do what Panasonic says, in fact, it does.

Why is that?

72020f2f8cb4494c9df52c6b81641ea4.jpg.png
Did you notice the very problem you're saying is a problem is a problem they say they're addressing with this release?

You're so focused on how Panasonic is blind that you seem completely deaf to the point of this launch.
Because there is no point to it.
There is indeed a point to it if it works.

If it works, then it makes no difference whether you shoot images/video on your smartphone app or an S9 — because the captured images and video show up automatically in your phone's camera roll/gallery.

And therefore, you can use the same workflow to process and share the resulting images/video irrespective of the capture device.
It does need more evidence that the sync and seamlessness delivers on the promise but you're ignoring the promise that has been made. Completely and totally ignoring it.
They can promise the world but they failed to deliver. That is why the reception was so poor.
The S9 had a poor reception for launching at $1500 despite having e-shutter only, no EVF, coldshoe only; and despite being a video-centric camera was being pared with a manual focus only f8 kit lens with a plastic mount, no range markings, no filter threads, and no ability to stop down the aperture.
Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket.
That's a lot of things in favour of the iPhone. Do you think iPhones are a better choice for video and photography than a m4/3 camera?
I think timely release of interesting content trumps sensor size every single time.
Yeah that is literally what this release is designed to address.

Maybe you missed that?
It doesn't address this. Maybe you missed that.
It does (claim to) address that. Maybe you missed that.
No one outside of nerdy tech forums cares what device/size you use.
So you speak for all creators and content consumers everywhere?
Prove me wrong.
How about you prove yourself right?
Until the Panasonic's of the world realize this they will continue to fumble.
By launching an iPhone of their own, I suppose?
Which is to say they will continue to fumble.
Well, perhaps we agree that the S9's chances of failure are substantially higher than its chances of success.

But (a) predictions are hard, especially about the future; and (b) Panasonic does need to try something, and I'm glad they're trying (again) to improve the sync experience with phones as part of what they're trying.
 
Which is to say they will continue to fumble.
Well, perhaps we agree that the S9's chances of failure are substantially higher than its chances of success.

But (a) predictions are hard, especially about the future; and (b) Panasonic does need to try something, and I'm glad they're trying (again) to improve the sync experience with phones as part of what they're trying.
Yes, and the thing that many seem to not understand is that this camera has not been designed with existing camera users in mind. The negative response is precisely from those for whom the camera was not designed.

Panasonic is trying to grow the user base of the camera market rather than target people to switch from another model. A good thing in my view.
 
If Panasonic really believes that their cameras offer "seamless content creation" then that's an even bigger problem. How blind can they be?
Why do you think this whole S9 release focuses on the seamless auto-sync of video and stills from camera to phone?
It actually doesn't. That's the point. Nothing about it is auto or seamless.
Have you actually used the Lumix Lab app? Or even seen what it is purported to do?
Only demo's - it is not even available for iOS.
You claim again and again and again that the app doesn't do what Panasonic says, in fact, it does.

Why is that?

72020f2f8cb4494c9df52c6b81641ea4.jpg.png
This is exactly what I am saying! This is not automatic or seamless. Instructions:

Tap Camera icon.
2Turn on [Auto Transfer].
Establish a Wi-Fi connection with the camera. Select [Join] to connect the devices.
3Take a picture with the camera.
[] is displayed on the camera recording screen during file transfer.
This function can be turned on or off from either the camera or the smartphone when the devices are connected via Wi-Fi.
Automatic image transfer is not available unless [Wi-Fi] is displayed on the camera recording screen.
If it is not displayed, check the status of the Wi-Fi connection with the camera.
No other operations can be performed during image transfer.
Automatic image transfer is not available for images captured with the camera set as follows.
Recording file format set to [MP4] (other than MP4 Lite) or [MOV]
Ending automatic image transfer

1Tap Camera icon.
2Turn off [Auto Transfer].

First you have to establish a bluetooth connection - that's fair. Pair the phone with the camera. Simple. Now, do images I shoot on my camera appear in my photo library? Nope. Why not? I have to disconnect from WiFi internet, then launch the Lumix Lab app on my phone. Then establish an ad hoc WiFi connection between my phone and my camera. Now, so long as I keep my phone and my camera in close proximity, I have a link and images will appear in my Lumix Lab app. Can I post a video I just shot to Reels? Nope. Why? Because no other operations can be performed during transfer. I have no internet connection because my phone is paired with my camera. Now do you see? This is even worse than Lumix Sync which allows you to simply tap and transfer photos after the fact. At least my phone isn't tied up by my camera! I look at this process and say, why not just bring my phone? It is way faster and simpler and easy to carry.
Did you notice the very problem you're saying is a problem is a problem they say they're addressing with this release?

You're so focused on how Panasonic is blind that you seem completely deaf to the point of this launch.
Because there is no point to it.
There is indeed a point to it if it works.

If it works, then it makes no difference whether you shoot images/video on your smartphone app or an S9 — because the captured images and video show up automatically in your phone's camera roll/gallery.

And therefore, you can use the same workflow to process and share the resulting images/video irrespective of the capture device.
See above. The workflow is broken. This is true for all cameras, not just Lumix.
It does need more evidence that the sync and seamlessness delivers on the promise but you're ignoring the promise that has been made. Completely and totally ignoring it.
They can promise the world but they failed to deliver. That is why the reception was so poor.
The S9 had a poor reception for launching at $1500 despite having e-shutter only, no EVF, coldshoe only; and despite being a video-centric camera was being pared with a manual focus only f8 kit lens with a plastic mount, no range markings, no filter threads, and no ability to stop down the aperture.
Yeah, I don't get it. The whole thing is strange.
Every camera still requires a mobile or laptop to get the content where it needs to go. Can I live stream on the camera? No. Can I add text overlays on my camera? No. Can I add music to my reels? No. Can I tag people in camera? No. I can do all this from an iPhone that weighs 170g and easily slides in my pocket.
That's a lot of things in favour of the iPhone. Do you think iPhones are a better choice for video and photography than a m4/3 camera?
I think timely release of interesting content trumps sensor size every single time.
Yeah that is literally what this release is designed to address.

Maybe you missed that?
It doesn't address this. Maybe you missed that.
It does (claim to) address that. Maybe you missed that.
I have not see anything to make be believe otherwise. Until a device can share directly with my friends/family and post to TikTok, Insta, Snap, there is no point. A phone is way faster.
No one outside of nerdy tech forums cares what device/size you use.
So you speak for all creators and content consumers everywhere?
Prove me wrong.
How about you prove yourself right?
Lumix already did. The more I read and watch demo's the more I see.
Until the Panasonic's of the world realize this they will continue to fumble.
By launching an iPhone of their own, I suppose?
Which is to say they will continue to fumble.
Well, perhaps we agree that the S9's chances of failure are substantially higher than its chances of success.

But (a) predictions are hard, especially about the future; and (b) Panasonic does need to try something, and I'm glad they're trying (again) to improve the sync experience with phones as part of what they're trying.
I think they picked an unwinnable fight. Phones won this battle long ago.
 
> It does need more evidence that the sync and seamlessness delivers on the promise

Indeed. In my experience the existing Panasonic Image app never delivered on its promises. Perhaps Panasonic Sync does better, but it isn't compatible with my GX9.

Mark
They restrict the app? I guess that is Panasonic's way of forcing upgrades. Surely they will issue a FW update to the older cameras so they are compatible right? ;-)
 

Keyboard shortcuts

Back
Top