Indoor Concert Video - Lens for SONY ZV-E10

I had earlier used a Panasonic Lumix FZ1000 for indoor concerts and the results - (both video and audio as below) exceeded my expectations, even though I shot it in FHD only and did not utlilize its excellent 4K capabilities.



I have since acquired a ZV-E10 (which does 4K as well) and it has done well during the day in bright light with the 18-135mm lens, but I am now planning to record videos of an indoor concert this Friday night and am not sure if any of the below camera / lens combinations will do any better than the FZ1000.

Apart from the aforementioned 18-135mm superzoom and the ZV-E10 kit lens (Sony E PZ 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS) I have another lens - the Sony 35mm F1.8 prime for low light, but the fact that it has no zoom is putting me off - even though I believe I will be pretty close to the stage at this smallish indoor vanue (Black Cat in Washington DC).

Will the APS-C ZV-E10 with one of the above lenses be better or should I just stick with my tried and tested 18x 1" sensor bridge camera FZ1000 with 4K? In fact, I had even used a Samsung S22 Ultra with 3x and 10x optical zoom indoors, and I thought it did very well per this video below.



Your advice / recommendations will be appreciated!!

Just remember that a 35mm lens on yoiur ZV-E10 is going to have the equivalent field of view as a 52mm-ish lens on a full frame camera. Since I don't know the venue, can't tell you whether it will have an approriate field of view or not.

And I am sure that yiou know already that shooting wide open (or close to it) will give you pretty shallow depth of field. That can be good or bad. If the stage is pretty deep, it might be difficult to geep everyone in focus. (Uncle dunc will be able to provide somre real-world guesstimates if he checks in to this thread. Best to tell us all how big / deep the stage is.)

AS for the video you shot on your smartphone of the Marla Dixon Band...

Well... I guess it is ok if you like plastic skin ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I am sorry, but I grew up watching concert movies like Zepplin's The Song Remains the Same, and Bowie's Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars, and Scorsese's The Last Waltz, and later on, The Decline of Western Civilization, and Urgh! A Music War, and Stop Making Sense. So I am used to expect to see texture in concert footage... espescially if it is going to be in a small, dark, jazz club.

But hey, you do you, boo, and I will go back to yelling at clouds.

Off The Mark said:

Just remember that a 35mm lens on yoiur ZV-E10 is going to have the equivalent field of view as a 52mm-ish lens on a full frame camera. Since I don't know the venue, can't tell you whether it will have an approriate field of view or not.

Click to expand...

Yep, I did think of that.

Off The Mark said:

And I am sure that yiou know already that shooting wide open (or close to it) will give you pretty shallow depth of field. That can be good or bad. If the stage is pretty deep, it might be difficult to geep everyone in focus. (Uncle dunc will be able to provide somre real-world guesstimates if he checks in to this thread. Best to tell us all how big / deep the stage is.)

Click to expand...

Problem is, this would be my first time in there (I have only seen the building from the outside), so I don't have a lot of advance info on the dimensions of the stage etc. either.

Off The Mark said:

AS for the video you shot on your smartphone of the Marla Dixon Band...

Well... I guess it is ok if you like plastic skin ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I am sorry, but I grew up watching concert movies like Zepplin's The Song Remains the Same, and Bowie's Ziggy Stardust and the Spiders from Mars, and Scorsese's The Last Waltz, and later on, The Decline of Western Civilization, and Urgh! A Music War, and Stop Making Sense. So I am used to expect to see texture in concert footage... espescially if it is going to be in a small, dark, jazz club.

Click to expand...

My standartds are decidedly more earth-bound.

Off The Mark said:

But hey, you do you, boo, and I will go back to yelling at clouds.

Click to expand...

No disagreements there ... :-D :-D

Quick look at those two videos.

My advice is that before buying more lenses you buy a tripod.

Your work will look 100% more professional.

T

TonyGamble said:

Quick look at those two videos.

My advice is that before buying more lenses you buy a tripod.

Your work will look 100% more professional.

T

Click to expand...

I hear you, but I feel lucky when they allow recording videos - tripods will be a no no at most of these concerts. A gimbal maybe...

Monopod?

It's the way the image roams over the subject that makes it look so much like a home movie on a phone.

sbansban said:

I had earlier used a Panasonic Lumix FZ1000 for indoor concerts and the results - (both video and audio as below) exceeded my expectations, even though I shot it in FHD only and did not utlilize its excellent 4K capabilities.

I have since acquired a ZV-E10 (which does 4K as well) and it has done well during the day in bright light with the 18-135mm lens, but I am now planning to record videos of an indoor concert this Friday night and am not sure if any of the below camera / lens combinations will do any better than the FZ1000.

Apart from the aforementioned 18-135mm superzoom and the ZV-E10 kit lens (Sony E PZ 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS) I have another lens - the Sony 35mm F1.8 prime for low light, but the fact that it has no zoom is putting me off - even though I believe I will be pretty close to the stage at this smallish indoor vanue (Black Cat in Washington DC).

Will the APS-C ZV-E10 with one of the above lenses be better or should I just stick with my tried and tested 18x 1" sensor bridge camera FZ1000 with 4K? In fact, I had even used a Samsung S22 Ultra with 3x and 10x optical zoom indoors, and I thought it did very well per this video below.

Your advice / recommendations will be appreciated!!

Click to expand...

If you're looking for a new lens, get the Tamron 17-70mm f/2.8. It's the best bang-for-your-buck video lens out there IMO.

Also IMO you should never use a variable aperture lens for video, as the lighting and DOF will change as you zoom (you could use auto ISO to compensate, but I wouldn't recommend that either). So if what you listed are the only options, I would go with the 35mm f/1.8 over everything else. If you are filming in 4k but outputting to 1080, you get a free 2x "zoom" to work with anyway.

In a pinch, a neck strap can be used to help stabilize your camera by giving it a third point of contact, if you hold the camera outstreched (sorry if that is not a word) far enough that the strap provides tension.

I don't know if there is a DIY version of the CineSaddle that you can make and take in to a concert. They probably have prohibitions against bags / shoulder slings and such.

Good luck whatever you do!!! If you post on youtube, then be sure to link to it from here.

4863 Media said:

sbansban said:

I had earlier used a Panasonic Lumix FZ1000 for indoor concerts and the results - (both video and audio as below) exceeded my expectations, even though I shot it in FHD only and did not utlilize its excellent 4K capabilities.

I have since acquired a ZV-E10 (which does 4K as well) and it has done well during the day in bright light with the 18-135mm lens, but I am now planning to record videos of an indoor concert this Friday night and am not sure if any of the below camera / lens combinations will do any better than the FZ1000.

Apart from the aforementioned 18-135mm superzoom and the ZV-E10 kit lens (Sony E PZ 16-50mm f/3.5-5.6 OSS) I have another lens - the Sony 35mm F1.8 prime for low light, but the fact that it has no zoom is putting me off - even though I believe I will be pretty close to the stage at this smallish indoor vanue (Black Cat in Washington DC).

Will the APS-C ZV-E10 with one of the above lenses be better or should I just stick with my tried and tested 18x 1" sensor bridge camera FZ1000 with 4K? In fact, I had even used a Samsung S22 Ultra with 3x and 10x optical zoom indoors, and I thought it did very well per this video below.

Your advice / recommendations will be appreciated!!

Click to expand...

If you're looking for a new lens, get the Tamron 17-70mm f/2.8. It's the best bang-for-your-buck video lens out there IMO.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the recommendation - I am not really looking to buy any new lenses or gear at this point - just trying to decide among the options I already have.

4863 Media said:

Also IMO you should never use a variable aperture lens for video, as the lighting and DOF will change as you zoom (you could use auto ISO to compensate, but I wouldn't recommend that either).

Click to expand...

I used the FZ1000 fixed lens bridge camera per the first video I embedded in my original post - obviously its aperture varied while I zoomed in and out (with auto ISO) and while it may not be ideal, I thought I did alright and the video quality was more or less OK for my purposes - but having said that, I would always welcome any incremental improvements in quality, of course.

4863 Media said:

So if what you listed are the only options, I would go with the 35mm f/1.8 over everything else. If you are filming in 4k but outputting to 1080, you get a free 2x "zoom" to work with anyway.

Click to expand...

Good point - thanks.

Off The Mark said:

In a pinch, a neck strap can be used to help stabilize your camera by giving it a third point of contact, if you hold the camera outstreched (sorry if that is not a word) far enough that the strap provides tension.

Click to expand...

Never did it before - certainly worth a try.

Off The Mark said:

I don't know if there is a DIY version of the CineSaddle that you can make and take in to a concert. They probably have prohibitions against bags / shoulder slings and such.

Click to expand...

Wasn't aware of that product - just googled it and it seems interesting.

Off The Mark said:

Good luck whatever you do!!! If you post on youtube, then be sure to link to it from here.

Click to expand...

Thanks, will do.

sbansban said:

I used the FZ1000 fixed lens bridge camera per the first video I embedded in my original post - obviously its aperture varied while I zoomed in and out (with auto ISO) and while it may not be ideal, I thought I did alright and the video quality was more or less OK for my purposes - but having said that, I would always welcome any incremental improvements in quality, of course.

Click to expand...

Yes, that video is fine (the La Vie En Rose performance). Personally I would add a bit more contrast / darken the shadows a bit in pot, only because the performers are backlit by a lot of lights and those back lights are pointing at your camera and reducing contrast a bit.

I do feel that a little less panning the camera around would be better. I know it is hard because it doesn't look like the lens on the FZ1000 is wide enough to get the whole stage in frame.

Also, just realized that your ZV-E10 has a power zoom feature, which I think COULD come in handy. Maybe the ZV-E10 + your Sony 16-50 OSS Power Zoom lens would be a pretty good combo. I don't think you would have to zoom in too much during the performance, but a couple of slow, controlled zooms might be nice.

At least, it would give you the most flexibility. Maybe take that and the 35mm prime in (if you can) and switch out for whichever one is better when you are there.

Hope this helps.

--
What Middle School Is Really Like:

"I don't think you would have to zoom in too much during the performance, but a couple of slow, controlled zooms might be nice."

Only zoom for solos. And then stay there. Don't fiddle around.

TonyGamble said:

"I don't think you would have to zoom in too much during the performance, but a couple of slow, controlled zooms might be nice."

Only zoom for solos. And then stay there. Don't fiddle around.

Click to expand...

Agreed!

The problem with shooting live music is not knowing what's coming next. My approach is to use several cameras, a wide shot, a telephoto on the singer, and a camera operator with a zoom lens looking for interesting things. With several cameras, if my zoom camera misses a cue, like the beginning of a solo, I can go back to the wide shot for a few seconds and then return to the zoom camera catching the solo.

In your scenario, does the Sony shoot unlimited 4k without overheating? If it does, I would go to the venue a few days before the show and find a mounting spot for a wide shot, somewhere in the back of the venue, using your 35mm lens. Rather than use a tripod, find a fixture in the building you could attach a camera to. See my "DIY camera rigging" thread from a few days ago. There are all kinds of contraptions you can make or buy for suspending a camera from a ceiling mount or a pole, or column. (I'm updating the DIY thread with another contraption today.)

For a telephoto shot of the singer, the venue might let you set up a tripod at the edge of the stage - with the band's permission. Getting the band on board really helps finesse these situations. If you need a taller tripod, the Magnus 350 goes to over 7 feet. Another approach is to get some sections of PVC plumbing pipe to fit over the legs of the tripod, giving you a couple of extra feet in height.

If a multi-camera shoot is not possible, you're going to be limited to your handheld camera, which should be a zoom lens. In my shooting, I use F/2.8 lenses (zooms and primes.) Any F/stop lower than that is going to give you very shallow DOF, which might be okay for a telephoto on the singer, but not for wider shots, where the band member closest to the camera will be in focus, and the others won't be.

In this single camera scenario, I would start and end each song with a wide shot, and then do slow zooms to get closer, catching the singer for maybe 5 or 10 seconds. While you're in that position, look around to see what's interesting. Getting a tighter shot on each musician makes the shoot more interesting, as long as the players you're focusing on are animated, rather than standing still looking bored. Hold each new view for 5 or ten seconds, planning ahead while you're holding. A slow pan across the entire stage is another good move. I really like catching players looking at each other and grinning, but that might just come down to luck. Panning to the audience at the end of a song can be interesting - or get you in trouble if the audience doesn't want to be filmed.

If you want to really delve into concert video beyond this one shoot, I'd get the Tamron zoom mentioned earlier for the Sony, use the FZ for the telephoto on the singer, and your phone for the wide shot camera, assuming your phone shoots 4k with no time limit. If the FZ has a time limit, I'd set it aside as an auxiliary camera and get a used Lumix G85 for the telephoto on the singer. The G85 will shoot unlimited 4k without overheating, and they're under $400 used. A used GX85 is also an option, but it doesn't have a fully articulating screen, and they're about $50 more used, (even though they were $200-300 cheaper than the G85 when they were new.)

For the telephoto lens, I'd get a Samyang 85mm F/1.4 . They're cheap. If the zoom isn't tight enough, you could use the 'tele extend' function on the camera , which samples a smaller section of the sensor, and you can zoom in post, assuming you're rendering to 1080p. The downside of the Samyang is a bit of a washed out image, which you can compensate for by using the 'Vivid' picture profile on the G85.

Shooting interesting concert video with a single camera is a real challenge, but it can be done. It really helps if the shooter has an ear for music and can anticipate what's coming next.

Shooting multi-camera live music video could turn into a side business. Musicians are vain. They like seeing themselves up on screen and are sometimes willing to pay for it. (I should know. I'm a musician. Ha ha)

TonyGamble said:

Monopod?

Click to expand...

Probably not allowed either, but should I set stabilization to Active instead of standard? I'll most probably use the Sony 35mm F1.8 prime lens - which has built-in optical image stabilization already.

TonyGamble said:

It's the way the image roams over the subject that makes it look so much like a home movie on a phone.

Click to expand...

Not sure I get it. You mean I am waving the camera around too much?

sbansban said:

TonyGamble said:

Monopod?

Click to expand...

Probably not allowed either, but should I set stabilization to Active instead of standard? I'll most probably use the Sony 35mm F1.8 prime lens - which has built-in optical image stabilization already.

sbansban said:

It's the way the image roams over the subject that makes it look so much like a home movie on a phone.

Click to expand...

Not sure I get it. You mean I am waving the camera around too much?

Click to expand...

Are you just recording these for your own viewing? Do you know the band? If you have an in with the band I'd just have them talk to the venue to get you permission to bring whatever equipment you want. When I film for bands I just go in with them at load in and they'll usually introduce me to the folks at the venue who are more than happy to give me the access I need.

Good post that gets to the nub of it.

Are the videos for your personal amusement or are they intended to promote the band.

There is a lot from these folk on YouTube.


Clearly multi cam and inevitably put together by someone reasonably experienced at editing. There are zooms but they could have been introduced by software in the edit.

I have never bothered to try to count the number of cameras. If I were going into this game I'd be looking to buy more cameras than lenses.

I'm photographing a show on Wednesday. Stills rather than video but I'll be using two cameras - two fixed focal lengths as I'll get wider aperture than one with a zoom.

Off The Mark said:

sbansban said:

I used the FZ1000 fixed lens bridge camera per the first video I embedded in my original post - obviously its aperture varied while I zoomed in and out (with auto ISO) and while it may not be ideal, I thought I did alright and the video quality was more or less OK for my purposes - but having said that, I would always welcome any incremental improvements in quality, of course.

Click to expand...

Yes, that video is fine (the La Vie En Rose performance). Personally I would add a bit more contrast / darken the shadows a bit in pot, only because the performers are backlit by a lot of lights and those back lights are pointing at your camera and reducing contrast a bit.

Click to expand...

Thanks. the original had more contrast and I lifted the shadows in post.

Off The Mark said:

I do feel that a little less panning the camera around would be better. I know it is hard because it doesn't look like the lens on the FZ1000 is wide enough to get the whole stage in frame.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you're not the only one who has said that.

Off The Mark said:

Also, just realized that your ZV-E10 has a power zoom feature, which I think COULD come in handy. Maybe the ZV-E10 + your Sony 16-50 OSS Power Zoom lens would be a pretty good combo. I don't think you would have to zoom in too much during the performance, but a couple of slow, controlled zooms might be nice.

Click to expand...

I used the SEL35F18 prime lens through the whole concert last night, but also THE FZ1000 with 18x zoom and a Samsung S22 Ultra with 3x and 10x zoom. The inability to zoom in and out was a big constraint.

Off The Mark said:

At least, it would give you the most flexibility. Maybe take that and the 35mm prime in (if you can) and switch out for whichever one is better when you are there.

Hope this helps.

Click to expand...

Changing lenses in the middle of the concert won't work for me. Next time I'll only use the kit lens which has a 3x zoom or even try out the 18-135 mm lens if the lighting is decent. For this concert, it was so dark that even the F1.8 prime struggled. In fact the FZ1000 seems to have done a bit better. Still haven't finished watching the videos - in general they don't seem to have turned out too well. There was a very animated crowd partially blocking the view from my vantage point and I could not get close due to them - and the fact the my prime lens effectively has a 52.5mm (35 mm equivalent) focal length.

TonyGamble said:

Good post that gets to the nub of it.

Are the videos for your personal amusement or are they intended to promote the band.

Click to expand...

Personal - for my YouTube channel at https://www.youtube.com/@sbansban/videos . I have no connection with the band.

TonyGamble said:

There is a lot from these folk on YouTube.

Click to expand...

seems like a different band. the one I went to lasdt night was a Brazilian one called CSS (Cansei de Ser Sexy).

TonyGamble said:

Clearly multi cam and inevitably put together by someone reasonably experienced at editing. There are zooms but they could have been introduced by software in the edit.

I have never bothered to try to count the number of cameras. If I were going into this game I'd be looking to buy more cameras than lenses.

I'm photographing a show on Wednesday. Stills rather than video but I'll be using two cameras - two fixed focal lengths as I'll get wider aperture than one with a zoom.

Click to expand...

Of course it's useful to be able to deploy multiple cameras but that also makes things a bit complicated and awkward for me. My FZ1000, even though it's from 10 years ago, has 4K, a fixed 18x zoom lens and is giving the much more recent ZV-E10 and its multiple lenses a run for their money. between that and my Samsung S22 Ultra, I seem to be well covered for now - which is a bit of a shame because for now at least, I don't seem to be deriving much benefit from all the money I spent on the ZV-E10 and its 3 lenses. But then, to be fair, I haven't got around to using the ZV-E10 much - so it's still early days for any firm conclusions.

uncle dunc said:

The problem with shooting live music is not knowing what's coming next. My approach is to use several cameras, a wide shot, a telephoto on the singer, and a camera operator with a zoom lens looking for interesting things. With several cameras, if my zoom camera misses a cue, like the beginning of a solo, I can go back to the wide shot for a few seconds and then return to the zoom camera catching the solo.

Click to expand...

That's why my 10-year old 18x zoom fixed lens but 4K capable FZ1000 has been so useful. No need to change lenses (how would I ever do that in the middle of a concert in a dark place?) and surprisingly good in low light too.

uncle dunc said:

In your scenario, does the Sony shoot unlimited 4k without overheating?

Click to expand...

Yes, but the Panasonic FZ1000 has a 30-minute limit on videos. But that's no biggie - I just turn it off and turn it back on between songs.

uncle dunc said:

If it does, I would go to the venue a few days before the show and find a mounting spot for a wide shot, somewhere in the back of the venue, using your 35mm lens. Rather than use a tripod, find a fixture in the building you could attach a camera to. See my "DIY camera rigging" thread from a few days ago. There are all kinds of contraptions you can make or buy for suspending a camera from a ceiling mount or a pole, or column. (I'm updating the DIY thread with another contraption today.)

Click to expand...

I like to keep things simple - and scouting out vanues in advance requires time. Good tips though - maybe I can try them out if / when the occasion permits.

uncle dunc said:

For a telephoto shot of the singer, the venue might let you set up a tripod at the edge of the stage - with the band's permission. Getting the band on board really helps finesse these situations. If you need a taller tripod, the Magnus 350 goes to over 7 feet. Another approach is to get some sections of PVC plumbing pipe to fit over the legs of the tripod, giving you a couple of extra feet in height.

Click to expand...

TBH all that is probably for hard-core videographers - I'm just a hobbyist of sorts.

uncle dunc said:

If a multi-camera shoot is not possible, you're going to be limited to your handheld camera, which should be a zoom lens. In my shooting, I use F/2.8 lenses (zooms and primes.) Any F/stop lower than that is going to give you very shallow DOF, which might be okay for a telephoto on the singer, but not for wider shots, where the band member closest to the camera will be in focus, and the others won't be.

Click to expand...

Yep - the FZ1000 has F2.8-F4.0 across its 18x zoom and its 1" sensor is very capable. Please see the video I embedded in my original post of La Vie en Rose.

uncle dunc said:

In this single camera scenario, I would start and end each song with a wide shot, and then do slow zooms to get closer, catching the singer for maybe 5 or 10 seconds. While you're in that position, look around to see what's interesting. Getting a tighter shot on each musician makes the shoot more interesting, as long as the players you're focusing on are animated, rather than standing still looking bored. Hold each new view for 5 or ten seconds, planning ahead while you're holding. A slow pan across the entire stage is another good move. I really like catching players looking at each other and grinning, but that might just come down to luck. Panning to the audience at the end of a song can be interesting - or get you in trouble if the audience doesn't want to be filmed.

Click to expand...

I am learning as I go along.

uncle dunc said:

If you want to really delve into concert video beyond this one shoot, I'd get the Tamron zoom mentioned earlier for the Sony, use the FZ for the telephoto on the singer, and your phone for the wide shot camera, assuming your phone shoots 4k with no time limit. If the FZ has a time limit, I'd set it aside as an auxiliary camera and get a used Lumix G85 for the telephoto on the singer. The G85 will shoot unlimited 4k without overheating, and they're under $400 used. A used GX85 is also an option, but it doesn't have a fully articulating screen, and they're about $50 more used, (even though they were $200-300 cheaper than the G85 when they were new.)

Click to expand...

Already have too much gear and between the FZ1000 and the Samsung S22 Ultra, my needs seem to be more or less covered for now. But since I have the ZV-E10 and its 3 lenses too, I'd like to utilize them as well. It has done well with the the 28-135mm lens for street concerts in broad daylight.

uncle dunc said:

For the telephoto lens, I'd get a Samyang 85mm F/1.4 . They're cheap. If the zoom isn't tight enough, you could use the 'tele extend' function on the camera , which samples a smaller section of the sensor, and you can zoom in post, assuming you're rendering to 1080p. The downside of the Samyang is a bit of a washed out image, which you can compensate for by using the 'Vivid' picture profile on the G85.

Click to expand...

Probably no new gear for me any time soon

uncle dunc said:

Shooting interesting concert video with a single camera is a real challenge, but it can be done. It really helps if the shooter has an ear for music and can anticipate what's coming next.

Shooting multi-camera live music video could turn into a side business. Musicians are vain. They like seeing themselves up on screen and are sometimes willing to pay for it. (I should know. I'm a musician. Ha ha)

Click to expand...