Home "scanning" with camera - how practical is it?

Stoltzman1972

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As i understand, the results from the lab scans may wary and may not be to my liking, but since i get to keep the negatives anyway and have a pretty good camera with high resolution lens - do you think it's worth it to get some sort of a film holder with backlight and re-scan the negatives at home? do i need 1:1 macro for proper results?

i am definitely not buying a scanner. There are ofcourse youtube tutorials that i watched, but the setups are different and it's hard to understand where i can go cheaper and where it is not recommended.
 
As i understand, the results from the lab scans may wary and may not be to my liking, but since i get to keep the negatives anyway and have a pretty good camera with high resolution lens - do you think it's worth it to get some sort of a film holder with backlight and re-scan the negatives at home? do i need 1:1 macro for proper results?

i am definitely not buying a scanner. There are ofcourse youtube tutorials that i watched, but the setups are different and it's hard to understand where i can go cheaper and where it is not recommended.
You don’t say what film size your using, but assuming it’s 35mm you can get a holder/tubes/light that screws onto the front of your lens and holds everything steady for around £80 (JJC - https://www.jjc.cc/index/goods/detail.html?id=1024 ). Other ones are available, but I use the JJC one for 110 film with a 3rd party holder and it’s very good (I use a scanner for 35mm and 120 but you say you don’t want to do that).

You will probably want some software to invert negatives, there are many different packages available at different price points between free (£0) to around £100.

You will need a macro lens, and (IMO) at least a 24MP sensor to be reasonably confident of getting a good representation of the negative.
 
Yes, the film is 35mm.

As for macro lenses, i guess it is possible to hunt for some of the vintage?

I have an Konica AR adapter for my Panasonic S5II and Pentax K adapter for Fuji - i think my options are pretty wide in that area.
 
Yes, the film is 35mm.

As for macro lenses, i guess it is possible to hunt for some of the vintage?

I have an Konica AR adapter for my Panasonic S5II and Pentax K adapter for Fuji - i think my options are pretty wide in that area.
There’s a table of supported lenses at the bottom of https://www.jjc.cc/index/goods/detail.html?id=1024

I've used it with a 40mm on Nikon DX, 60mm on Nikon FX (full frame), and 105mm on Nikon Z full frame, using th3 adapter rings supplied. I’ve also used it with some additional adapter rings on with a Olympus 60mm f/2.8 on MFT for scanning 110 (as there a 1:1 relationship between the MFT sensor and 110 film) so I suspect you could make most things fit.



There are some macro lenses which were built for slide copying - you might want to look to use one of those because they will be optimised to have a flat field.
 
Oh i think i got that general idea.

I was thinking more about setting a camera on a tripod and using a film holder with backlight, rather than hood-style scanning adapter.

Anyway i think hunting for a macro capable lens should be in my list of activities, i can figure out a way to organize a set up later.

If i can figure out the process i might open up an ad and help folks scan their film for a small fee at least to cover up the cost of gear. It is possible.
 
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Oh i think i got that general idea.

I was thinking more about setting a camera on a tripod and using a film holder with backlight, rather than hood-style scanning adapter.
You can do that and there’s lots of different setups available, or you can make your own using parts from old enlargers etc. For 35mm that seems to me to (a) be more expensive, and (b) introduce lots of additional problems [vibrations, reflections, holding film/camera perpendicular] which are solvable, but have to be solved.
Anyway i think hunting for a macro capable lens should be in my list of activities, i can figure out a way to organize a set up later.
People seem to like the Nikon 55mm f/2.8, although I don’t think that goes to 1:1. You’d have to adapt it to your camera of course.
If i can figure out the process i might open up an ad and help folks scan their film for a small fee at least to cover up the cost of gear. It is possible.
I think you might find there’s very little market - Amazon is full of £50 - £150 self-contained film digitisers which have the bottom end of the market pretty tied up, people wanting high quality scans will either do it themselves or will be looking for someone with years of expertise and high end equipment, and for bulk scanning you’ll find using a camera isn’t nearly as quick as YouTube etc makes out. Thats why I would try and do it as cheaply as possible to start off with rather than spending £600 on a Negative Supply kit.
 
One of the things that s5ii can do - high resolution pixel shift that will result in 96 mp image. At the very least i can do scans for myself with that.

i guess i need a macro, a tripod and led/holder setup for starters..
 
One of the things that s5ii can do - high resolution pixel shift that will result in 96 mp image. At the very least i can do scans for myself with that.

i guess i need a macro, a tripod and led/holder setup for starters..
It’s worth doing a search on this forum - there’s lots of examples people have posted of their setups
 
extension tubes are a reasonably affordable way into camera/film scanning

GAS - Get Another Sony
 
Yes, the film is 35mm.

As for macro lenses, i guess it is possible to hunt for some of the vintage?

I have an Konica AR adapter for my Panasonic S5II and Pentax K adapter for Fuji - i think my options are pretty wide in that area.
There’s a table of supported lenses at the bottom of https://www.jjc.cc/index/goods/detail.html?id=1024

I've used it with a 40mm on Nikon DX, 60mm on Nikon FX (full frame), and 105mm on Nikon Z full frame, using th3 adapter rings supplied. I’ve also used it with some additional adapter rings on with a Olympus 60mm f/2.8 on MFT for scanning 110 (as there a 1:1 relationship between the MFT sensor and 110 film) so I suspect you could make most things fit.

There are some macro lenses which were built for slide copying - you might want to look to use one of those because they will be optimised to have a flat field.
One example is the Olympus OM 80mm bellows lens. This can give excellent results.

Don
 
Depending on your goals and film all methods have benefits and drawbacks. I've worked on drum scanners in the past so my standards are high.

For B&W the dSLR + macro has given me by far the best results. My 24MP Canon SL3 provides the best balance of resolution and quality of scan. Grain at 6k x 4k it tack sharp and lacks the synthetic look of linear sampled plustek scans which are unfortunately all over the place based on quality of unit to unit. I've seen really good plustek scans, and crappy ones, likely depending on varainces in production. dSLR scans also lack the brutal grain definition of drum scans and don't have the annoying noise floor of Nikon units

In fact, I was discussing this on various reddit analog forums, and my dSLR scans with 100mm Maro with 400 Kentemere is capable of outresolving *ANY* full frame Canon lens I've used under perhaps 85mm - period. Also, converting monochrome dSLR scans is stupid simple using the invert curve trick of any free image software, Reddit Analog forum has a lot of amazing examples of B&W analog work that is flat out next level. They all use dSLR scanning.

Unfortunately I've found scanning rigs not as easy as they seem. I orignally started out with a piece of white plexi and a tripod, but this was a pain in the ass. First, I'm using a pretty heavy Bogen 3021 pod that's designed for much larger gear, and even with that my SL3 has enough mirror slap during 'scans' to cause sharpness issues. I have to brace the lens against my tripod to eliminate this. I could probably help this by getting a lens tripod mount, or a heavier duty ball head, but just mounting your camera and 100mm Macro on a tripod isn't that simple. You also need to be perfectly level or one side of the image frame will have soft grain while the other is sharp. You can spend hours aligning this, but if you move anything you have to start over. This is why most serious dSLR scanning is done with copy rigs. Much more rigid and less screwing around,

The tube based dSLR kits work good in concept, but have other issues. I bought the JCC kit mentioned above, and while it's well made it has other problems. First, it doesn't have enough extension tubes to get a a full frame with my 100mm macro even though it says it does. Next, the JCC film holders crop into 35mm frames just a bit. I don't need to see sprocket holes, but I don't want my film frame cropped even the slightest. If you are using a shorter macro and don't mind a tiny bit of frame cropping the JCC works fine.

When you switch to color neg or slide scanning you've opened up another gate. While color neg conversion works in Photoshop, it demnds a lot of manual work, which is why 3rd party software add ons are so popular. This is the big advantage Noritsu and Frontier scanning has in that these profiles are built in.
 
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The JJC kit does not work with my Canon 100mm Macro and cropped sensor. All the tubes in use it's about 2.5 inches or so too short to provide full frame from a 35mm neg.

Next, the JJC film holders cut into 35mm frames. Not much, but just a tad. I might be able to file this out a bit, but they are already pretty thin, and I would have to buy another kit to get more tubes.
 
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Very insightful, thank you.

Do you think there will be a big difference between using Full Frame and APS-C? Because i have both and they are 24 mp sensors. From the looks of it - 24 mp is more than enough for 35mm film scanning, and i am unsure if using Lumix high res mode will do anything other than enhance grain. (there was a comparison video on YT with 12\24\50 mp sony FF cameras for scanning medium format and 35mm film)

As for the lenses - if i use FF i will have to settle for vintage macro lenses.

On fuji aps-c there is a 7 artisan macro which is affordable
 
The JJC kit does not work with my Canon 100mm Macro and cropped sensor. All the tubes in use it's about 2.5 inches or so too short to provide full frame from a 35mm neg.
Good to know. It only says it works with the 60mm and a APS-C sensor on the manufacturers page ( https://www.jjc.cc/index/goods/detail.html?id=1024 ). But it’s helpful to know what other lenses / cameras it will / won’t work with.
Next, the JJC film holders cut into 35mm frames. Not much, but just a tad. I might be able to file this out a bit, but they are already pretty thin, and I would have to buy another kit to get more tubes.
From memory I think they’re the same size as the Nikon ES-2 holders, and various scanning adapters sold by Olympus, Jessops etc (which was where I got my 110 adapter)

Most 35mm cameras don’t have 100% viewfinders anyway so one could argue that the edges of the image aren’t part of it as the photographer intended :-) Certainly that was how lab prints worked. When I’m scanning 35mm I’m always more interested in having a 3:2 image than in capturing the whole image with the camera identification tangs and all the other paraphernalia.
 
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Very insightful, thank you.

Do you think there will be a big difference between using Full Frame and APS-C? Because i have both and they are 24 mp sensors. From the looks of it - 24 mp is more than enough for 35mm film scanning, and i am unsure if using Lumix high res mode will do anything other than enhance grain. (there was a comparison video on YT with 12\24\50 mp sony FF cameras for scanning medium format and 35mm film)
This page compares various DX cameras, a full frame and a CoolScan which might help - https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4741864

I did some scanning of a USAF 1951 target using an Olympus EM1 Mk ii which has pixel shift and it achieved 3962 dpi linear resolution out of a theoretic 8230 dpi ( https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/64776601 ). A 24 MP Nikon D610 was achieving 2794 dpi out of a theoretic 4233 ( https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4547755 ). I think other people have used pixel shift for scanning and it hasn't proved to be all that.
As for the lenses - if i use FF i will have to settle for vintage macro lenses.

On fuji aps-c there is a 7 artisan macro which is affordable
If APS-C is cheaper for you then I would use that (assuming the 7 artisan macro is suitable for the task, e.g. see https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4510171 )
 
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You might also find this link interesting - https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/65521943

It’s a list of things that can be important in using a digital camera to copy negatives and slides, or as it was put later “[enumerates] all possible reasons people abandoned camera scanning”
 
Yes, the film is 35mm.

As for macro lenses, i guess it is possible to hunt for some of the vintage?

I have an Konica AR adapter for my Panasonic S5II and Pentax K adapter for Fuji - i think my options are pretty wide in that area.
There’s a table of supported lenses at the bottom of https://www.jjc.cc/index/goods/detail.html?id=1024

I've used it with a 40mm on Nikon DX, 60mm on Nikon FX (full frame), and 105mm on Nikon Z full frame, using th3 adapter rings supplied. I’ve also used it with some additional adapter rings on with a Olympus 60mm f/2.8 on MFT for scanning 110 (as there a 1:1 relationship between the MFT sensor and 110 film) so I suspect you could make most things fit.

There are some macro lenses which were built for slide copying - you might want to look to use one of those because they will be optimised to have a flat field.
One example is the Olympus OM 80mm bellows lens. This can give excellent results.
Yes, that’s the one I was thinking of. Does it not do 1:1 copying though ?
 
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Do you think there will be a big difference between using Full Frame and APS-C?
Not a lot in terms of quality, but it can matter in terms of lens choices.
Because i have both and they are 24 mp sensors.
That's perfect.
From the looks of it - 24 mp is more than enough for 35mm film scanning, and i am unsure if using Lumix high res mode will do anything other than enhance grain.
I wouldn't bother with anything beyond native 24mp.
As for the lenses - if i use FF i will have to settle for vintage macro lenses.
Nothing wrong with that if you can adapt them to your camera(s). Any 50mm-ish true macro lens that provides up to 1:1 magnification will have a flat field, which is what you need for digitizing film. That focal length can be used with either sensor format by adjusting the focusing distance and magnification. There are lots of them on eBay for under $75.
On fuji aps-c there is a 7 artisan macro which is affordable
I'd personally prefer something with a full frame image circle.
 
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Here's my cheap but effective setup:
  • Inverted tripod (which i already owned)
  • Using full frame mirrorless NIKON z5 with a 60mm AF-D 1:1 macro (that's the inexpensive option i found used--any 1:1 macro would probably be good). I tried extension tubes, but they were too hard to get the framing and focus right.
  • Cheap bubble level from the hardware store to ensure the camera is level
  • Cheap usb-powered light table from Amazon
  • Plastic cutting board with an opening cut in it to mask the area around the film--without a mask i got bright glare spots in the image that showed as brown smudges when reversed. Before destroying the cutting board i used junk mail set around the negatives, which also worked fine.
  • The mask also holds the negatives flat. I use magnets to hold it to the light table (which is magnetic) but canned tomatoes weighting it down did the same job.
  • When taking the pictures, use the histogram and push the hump as far left as possible
  • Use a bulb blower before every picture--you can't see the dust and hair but it shows up clearly when scanned
  • Use the self-timer on the camera (or a remote) to avoid camera shake
  • I use Darktable Negadoctor to reverse the images. Does a great job and is free.
 
Unfortunately I've found scanning rigs not as easy as they seem.
After doing a lot of experimenting I ended up making this, of mostly "rail rig" components from Amazon + 3D printed slide and negative carriers. Everything is new and is off the shelf. It doesn't involve using old dark room equipment. And it works with any camera and macro lens.

db6802df771844759b6fbb55514668d5.jpg

I have a project page that covers most of what you need. I last worked on this several years ago but I think the external rail rig mounting hardware ended up costing less than $200. ("Rail rig" means parts that are normally used when using a camera for video and need to have a lot of other stuff in proximity to the camera.)

The 3D printed parts are written in free open source OpenSCAD--the source code is provided.

I also have a "tube mounted on the lens" version that has less external hardware, but takes a lot longer to 3D print. The tube version was what I initially developed but I wasn't comfortable with everything mounted on the lens, so I developed the above "rail rig" version.

fc6d74cc740843908be8c038649bcc9c.jpg

Yeah, 3D printing is a detour but you can buy a 3D printer plus the external mounting parts for less than the cost of a decent lens. And then have a head start on making all kinds of accessories. Or have the 3D printing done by a printing service.

This might look complicated but it boils down to ordering stuff from Amazon (or elsewhere), spending a few hours 3D printing and then bolting everything together. Not counting the wait time for ordering stuff, you could complete everything in less than a day. This is a low skill project--you don't need any advanced fabricating skills.

[Edit. As Scott indicated in the post I responded to, there really isn't any good off the shelf way to do camera scanning. Which is why I dug into 3D printing to make something that is better than off the shelf. It has worked very well for me for scanning both negatives and slides.]

Wayne
 

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