Help with focusing Z8 small birds

Only recently got the camera and been away so this is the first time I have used it.

I am shooting small birds in my back garden using the 200-500 with the converter

Shutter speed = 1/2000 Aperture = F/8 ISO = Auto

Focus mode single point AFC

Here is a sample photo and would like your advice please as the birds looks out of focus

I think, the bird didn't look sharp, because the picture is rather noisy and the bird is quite small. ISO25600 is very high. I would go for less iso and slower shutter speed.

For a 500mm lens 1/500 sec should be enough and gives better Iso. I would also use aperture fully open. So you could take the photo at ISO6400.

Petrolhead said:

Only recently got the camera and been away so this is the first time I have used it.

I am shooting small birds in my back garden using the 200-500 with the converter

Shutter speed = 1/2000 Aperture = F/8 ISO = Auto

Focus mode single point AFC

Here is a sample photo and would like your advice please as the birds looks out of focus

Click to expand...

I'm glad you shared the full size image. This bird is very small in the frame against a high contrast background. It's going to be very hard for the camera to pick out this subject without help.

Change your AF Area mode to Wide Small. Put the AF box on the subject. It should pick up the subject and possibly the bird's eye. Using a smaller AF area tells the camera where to look for a subject. In this case it may still not recognize this particular species, but uses nearest subject priority and should work.

If that does not work, switch to Dynamic Medium or Dynamic Small. These modes do not use subject recognition, but will allow you to precisely put the AF box on the subject and avoid the tangled branches. I use those modes a lot for small birds through branches or grasses.

This is also a case for using DX mode. DX mode will make the subject larger in your viewfinder and the frame. That makes it a little easier for the camera to find the subject since the outer area is discarded and the subject is larger. It also makes it easier for you to precisely place the AF box. You'll also find the AF boxes are a little larger in DX mode relative to the frame, so it feels like you have a focus area that is more forgiving. It's actually the same size as with the full frame, but still may be easier.

For this kind of subject it often helps to pre-focus or manually assist focus. You can use the focus peaking outline to help. Often the camera will hold on to a subject once you get close to correct focus.

Finally, I have my Fn1 button programmed to Zoom to 100%. It makes it easier to identify the subject and/or check focus before taking the shot.

--
Eric Bowles

Petrolhead said:

Only recently got the camera and been away so this is the first time I have used it.

I am shooting small birds in my back garden using the 200-500 with the converter

Shutter speed = 1/2000 Aperture = F/8 ISO = Auto

Focus mode single point AFC

Here is a sample photo and would like your advice please as the birds looks out of focus

Click to expand...

Other users have provided excellent advice regarding camera and AF settings, though it really comes down to filling the frame with your intended subject.

Petrolhead said:

Only recently got the camera and been away so this is the first time I have used it.

I am shooting small birds in my back garden using the 200-500 with the converter

Shutter speed = 1/2000 Aperture = F/8 ISO = Auto

Focus mode single point AFC

Here is a sample photo and would like your advice please as the birds looks out of focus

Click to expand...

first of all the ISO is set at 25600; if you are using auto-iso, that could be the culprit. to get the texture of the feathers and details of the eye, for best results perhaps no more than ISO 500.

tits, wrens, robins are moving all the time very quickly, but try slower shutter speeds for handheld. perhaps 1/500 sec slower if shooting on a tripod.

i also shoot these beast in our north london little back garden; i would suggest setting up a branch/feeder with its stand set into a big flowerpot/tub or something that is movable, and position it closer to you and with a less 'busy' background.

but you probably know all this... sorry!

ericbowles said:

Petrolhead said:

Only recently got the camera and been away so this is the first time I have used it.

I am shooting small birds in my back garden using the 200-500 with the converter

Shutter speed = 1/2000 Aperture = F/8 ISO = Auto

Focus mode single point AFC

Here is a sample photo and would like your advice please as the birds looks out of focus

Click to expand...

I'm glad you shared the full size image. This bird is very small in the frame against a high contrast background. It's going to be very hard for the camera to pick out this subject without help.

Change your AF Area mode to Wide Small. Put the AF box on the subject. It should pick up the subject and possibly the bird's eye. Using a smaller AF area tells the camera where to look for a subject. In this case it may still not recognize this particular species, but uses nearest subject priority and should work.

If that does not work, switch to Dynamic Medium or Dynamic Small. These modes do not use subject recognition, but will allow you to precisely put the AF box on the subject and avoid the tangled branches. I use those modes a lot for small birds through branches or grasses.

This is also a case for using DX mode. DX mode will make the subject larger in your viewfinder and the frame. That makes it a little easier for the camera to find the subject since the outer area is discarded and the subject is larger. It also makes it easier for you to precisely place the AF box. You'll also find the AF boxes are a little larger in DX mode relative to the frame, so it feels like you have a focus area that is more forgiving. It's actually the same size as with the full frame, but still may be easier.

For this kind of subject it often helps to pre-focus or manually assist focus. You can use the focus peaking outline to help. Often the camera will hold on to a subject once you get close to correct focus.

Finally, I have my Fn1 button programmed to Zoom to 100%. It makes it easier to identify the subject and/or check focus before taking the shot.

Click to expand...

Thanks, a lot to digest and test. Of course the bird has buggered off now so will try again tomorrow

buildingsights said:

Petrolhead said:

Only recently got the camera and been away so this is the first time I have used it.

I am shooting small birds in my back garden using the 200-500 with the converter

Shutter speed = 1/2000 Aperture = F/8 ISO = Auto

Focus mode single point AFC

Here is a sample photo and would like your advice please as the birds looks out of focus

Click to expand...

first of all the ISO is set at 25600; if you are using auto-iso, that could be the culprit. to get the texture of the feathers and details of the eye, for best results perhaps no more than ISO 500.
tits, wrens, robins are moving all the time very quickly, but try slower shutter speeds for handheld. perhaps 1/500 sec slower if shooting on a tripod.
i also shoot these beast in our north london little back garden; i would suggest setting up a branch/feeder with its stand set into a big flowerpot/tub or something that is movable, and position it closer to you and with a less 'busy' background.
but you probably know all this... sorry!

Click to expand...

I used the shutter speed and apature based on reccomendations. I assume the iso was so high to get the exposure.

Tomorrow will try lowering both to say 1/800 and f/5.6

Noise blur in camera?

Is that a camera jpg? If so, the camera noise reduction can blur out fine details. Post processing noise reduction of a raw file is so much better. My fast PC takes 3-5 seconds to process the noise, but the camera only has a small fraction of a second and a way slower processor. So it's reduction is quite simple and less effective.

On my Z6. I usually limit auto ISO to 6400, but will use 12800 for some uses. 25600 on my Z6 gives much worse images (but it's occasionally useful, if the scene doesn't require much dynamic range and fine details.)

Z6 ISO 32000 test

I think the Z6 handles noise a bit better than a Z7 or Z8, so I made this ISO 32000 test. It's a cloudy morning, which is easily bright enough for a low noise image, but I purposely set the ISO to 32000 for this, which raised the Aperture priority shutter speed. That's not much light reaching the sensor, so it's noisy.

Here's a 4K screenshot of a cropped 100% zoom area, using the FastStone image viewer's comparison view. The left side is the jpg straight out of camera, the right is a DxO DeepPrime noise reduction from the raw file. (I shoot raw+jpg pairs.)

If this was shot with a slower shutter and lower ISO, there would be even more detail. This has not just increased noise, but it's dynamic range is reduced too.

~~

The difference between the in-camera jpg and the raw version is startling! click the "original size" view. Or even better, download it and zoom in on your viewer.



~~~

Just for the scene context, here's the full size DxO edited image:

Personally, I would be more aggressive with longer shutter speeds. To shoot at 1/500 or 1/800 is basically implying that VR does nothing. I regularly shoot at 500mm at 1/250 (almost all shots of static subjects tack sharp) or 1/125 (maybe half of the shots tack sharp), and will even go to 1/60 (maybe 1/4 shots tack sharp) to get the ISO down, and I don't think this has anything to do with having steadier than average hands (I'm sure I don't). If the bird is moving (flying, twitching, turning its head), 1/500 won't freeze the action anyway.

I second (or third) the idea of shooting in DX mode as well--in my experience, in direct, immediate comparisons, animal auto detect can latch on to the same bird in DX mode that it failed to see in FX mode.

Good luck!

For shooting birds, full manual including non-auto ISO would likely give the best results. But for general photography:

Auto ISO sensitivity settings!

New to Z cameras? this isn't obvious.

It's not documented very well in my Z6 Nikon manual, and it's just mentioned in the Z8 online manual. I found this info from a DPR post.

On my Z6 (and the Z8 should be the same):

Menu-->Photo shooting-->ISO Sensitivity settings

The settings are:

Auto ISO sensitivity control=ON (It will show "OFF" when I switch the camera ISO control to ISO instead of auto ISO.)

Max sensitivity. I use 6400 most of the time.

Max sensitivity with flash. I don't use flash.

Minimum shutter speed Auto*

Now, clicking the Auto* setting, it's a list, Auto, 1/4000s, 1/3200s, etc.

But see the "Auto" line has a right arrow ">" for more settings! Tap the Auto selection.

Now there's a slider with 5 settings from Slower to Faster. The center setting is the classic 1/ focal length -- a 500mm lens would set 1/500 sec, 24mm=1/25 sec, etc. The slider allows a 1 or 2 stops slower or 1 or 2 stops faster auto shutter.

I usually set to the 1 stop slower, since I'm usually shooting static scenes. That's an easy handhold speed with the camera's IBIS. 1 stop would be 1/250 second for a 500mm lens.

~~~

Note that the camera will also go outside this Auto ISO range to keep the correct exposure.

Auto ISO in Aperture mode:

Bright light: the selected minimum ISO, and a fast shutter speed.

Less light: it keeps the min ISO, lowering the shutter speeds to the selected minimum range. Then it starts raising the ISO to my selected max ISO.

dim light: the scene is too dark for the slowest auto shutter speed and ISO. Now it starts lowering the shutter as needed, all the way down to about 1 or 2 seconds on my Z6. There's no obvious warning on the camera screen, since ISO has been already blinking as soon as it came off the minimum ISO. (It would be nice if the ISO warning blink didn't start until it was out of my selected range, but that's not how it works.)

~~~

From the online Z8 manual, in the ISO Sensitivity Settings page, this is all it says:

Petrolhead said:

To view auto shutter-speed selection options, highlight [Auto] and press ">". Auto shutter-speed selection can be fine-tuned by choosing faster or slower minimums. Faster settings can be used to reduce blur when photographing fast-moving subjects.

Click to expand...

jthomas39 said:

But see the "Auto" line has a right arrow ">" for more settings! Tap the Auto selection.

Now there's a slider with 5 settings from Slower to Faster. The center setting is the classic 1/ focal length -- a 500mm lens would set 1/500 sec, 24mm=1/25 sec, etc. The slider allows a 1 or 2 stops slower or 1 or 2 stops faster auto shutter.

I use the 1 stop slower, since I'm usually shooting static scenes. That's an easy handhold speed with the camera's IBIS. 1 stop would be 1/250 second for a 500mm lens.

Click to expand...

Just to be clear. This particular setting is mostly for aperture priority mode and program mode. It may have an impact on what ISO is set by the camera when in manual exposure mode with auto-ISO, but I haven't bothered to take notice.

I mostly shoot birds in full manual mode or manual with auto-ISO. I would rather not have the camera setting too high or too low of an ISO in this situation, especially an ISO that is higher than it needs to be. As such, for my taste in manual mode I would prefer the setting at 3.

Whether it's in focus or not, trying to heavily crop a small bird photo at that high of an ISO is going to produce a very soft image lacking feather detail. The best use of such a photo would be to identify the bird, even if it was in focus.

As others have said, shooting at 1/500 sec (or slower) is needed in a situation like this. 1/500 sec would allow an additional 2 stops of exposure which would reduce the ISO down to the 6000 range. Still high, but much better than 25,600! I find shooting at 1/500 sec handheld to be easy with the 200-500's excellent VR, along with some additional help from the Z8's IBIS. You could probably handhold even slower, or use a monopod or tripod to get to 1/250 or slower. Granted, those slow shutter speeds won't freeze much bird movement, but by shooting in 15-20 fps bursts, there's a good likelihood of getting a paused position that can yield a sharp result.

Perhaps Z 8 owners could comment on this.

My experience with Nikon mirrorless cameras is with the discontinued Nikon 1 system. I have noticed that AFC on those cameras could produce inconsistent focusing of static or laterally-moving subjects, especially with adapted F-mount lenses. Using AFS seemed to produce more-consistent focusing. Is that possibly also the case with the Z 8?

ARClark said:

Whether it's in focus or not, trying to heavily crop a small bird photo at that high of an ISO is going to produce a very soft image lacking feather detail. The best use of such a photo would be to identify the bird, even if it was in focus.

Click to expand...

Strongly agree. I'll add to this that after downloading and cropping this image to a composition I would put in my library of birds, I was left with a 2.5 MP image. While shooting in DX mode may help the focus acquisition, it will do absolutely nothing for the MP count of the final image.

But I'll cut the OP a lot of slack here. I think they are experimenting and learning. So all this AF talk aside, I think the first order of business is getting closer to the subject. A lot closer. That alone will help achieve better focus. And while getting closer, yes, do all the other stuff too. Lower shutter speed, wider aperture, lower ISO...

ARClark said:

As others have said, shooting at 1/500 sec (or slower) is needed in a situation like this. 1/500 sec would allow an additional 2 stops of exposure which would reduce the ISO down to the 6000 range. Still high, but much better than 25,600! I find shooting at 1/500 sec handheld to be easy with the 200-500's excellent VR, along with some additional help from the Z8's IBIS. You could probably handhold even slower, or use a monopod or tripod to get to 1/250 or slower. Granted, those slow shutter speeds won't freeze much bird movement, but by shooting in 15-20 fps bursts, there's a good likelihood of getting a paused position that can yield a sharp result.

Click to expand...

Yes. Agree.

My thought on this is you need to be much closer, at max aperture, and slower shutter speed, maybe 800 to 1000 (or less) since he is stationary Just to keep the ISO down. Moving in closer will allow you to use eye detection. I would also shoot a series of shots, ie 20 fps for a burst of 5 to 6 shots at at time. This is a full frame shot of a similar sized bird. Its much easier when you are closer. I would have been closer, but for the MFD.

Just my opinion and no disrespect to the OP: I would sell your Z8, and use that money for a D500 + wildlife photography workshop.

Basic wildlife photography skills would be best learned with a less complicated camera.

Petrolhead said:

Only recently got the camera and been away so this is the first time I have used it.

I am shooting small birds in my back garden using the 200-500 with the converter

Shutter speed = 1/2000 Aperture = F/8 ISO = Auto

Focus mode single point AFC

Here is a sample photo and would like your advice please as the birds looks out of focus

Click to expand...

What exactly are you expecting at this big distance? Get closer to the bird. The Z8 is a great camera for birding.

Below two examples, Nuthatch taken with 600mm F4 G, Long tailed tit with 500mm f5.6 PF.

I have the Z8 since one month and I totally love this cam. Although I hope the next FW update will really bring the Bird AF like on the Z9.

Wow. I'm somewhat puzzled I admit. That's as close as you could get due to the MFD of the 600mm f/6.3? I have the 600 and it sure seems like the small chickadees fill the frame a lot more than that. Must be a near hummingbird sized bird.

I have the 600 and it sure seems like the small chickadees fill the frame a lot more than that. Must be a near hummingbird sized bird.

A verdin is about 1/2 the size of a chickadee. I believe a chickadee is 5.5 inches long, a verdin is 3.5 inches.

… the OP keeps the Z 8, buys copies of Steve Perry’s books on bird photography and focusing Nikon mirrorless cameras, and goes out and takes lots and lots of photos with the Z 8 and 200-500mm lens to figure out how to get the most out of that combo. The D500 is a great camera - I own and regularly use one. By all accounts the Z 8 is even better, overall. Why waste time getting a different camera when the current camera is just as suitable (or better) for this type of photography?