Exposure compensation gone mad ?

ghostfox_1 said:

Oricoh said:

MattPointZero said:

ghostfox_1 said:

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I thought most cameras do this - it is EC in auto modes, exposure indicator in manual. You are just hugely underexposed with your settings. Stick it on iso 1600 and see what happens.

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I did increase ISO to 1600, see my other reply, https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67471600 still under exposed, as if something's broke with the camera metering. I know this room very well, its my study room and I shoot here a lot, it daylight with big windows, and full of light.

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Take a test shot, and look at the histogram. I'm willing to bet it'll show the shot is under exposed.

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But that's the point, I think the camera is reading the light wrongly. Anyway I think I found the problem and I marked the answer.

Oricoh said:

I am not assuming that there is something wrong with the camera, I used it above for illustration to make a point. From the start I assumed there is a setting gone wild, but I couldn't find it.

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Exactly my point. There is no setting gone wild.

Oricoh said:

I found the problem btw (see in one of the replies) from someone's advise, I am used to centre weighted metering and it was for some reason set to matrix. I think this is the solution, it's now darker in my 'studio" so I can't fully test it in the same conditions.

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Center weighted metering vs. matrix can cause differences in a photo's exposure when you are using one of the automated exposure modes. But in your original problem you are in manual mode. It really doesn't matter what metering mode you are using in that case except for what shows on the metering scale.

The rear display showed a severely underexposed photo with the settings you chose. The metering scale simply confirmed it. Switching between center weighted and matrix would not have changed the photo display on the rear LCD (assuming you have your camera display set to show results of settings).

michaeladawson said:

Oricoh said:

I am not assuming that there is something wrong with the camera, I used it above for illustration to make a point. From the start I assumed there is a setting gone wild, but I couldn't find it.

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Exactly my point. There is no setting gone wild.

michaeladawson said:

I found the problem btw (see in one of the replies) from someone's advise, I am used to centre weighted metering and it was for some reason set to matrix. I think this is the solution, it's now darker in my 'studio" so I can't fully test it in the same conditions.

Click to expand...

Center weighted metering vs. matrix can cause differences in a photo's exposure when you are using one of the automated exposure modes. But in your original problem you are in manual mode. It really doesn't matter what metering mode you are using in that case except for what shows on the metering scale.

The rear display showed a severely underexposed photo with the settings you chose. The metering scale simply confirmed it. Switching between center weighted and matrix would not have changed the photo display on the rear LCD (assuming you have your camera display set to show results of settings).

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Fair enough, so allow me to simplify or refine my question/problem then:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100 and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

Oricoh said:

ghostfox_1 said:

Oricoh said:

MattPointZero said:

Oricoh said:

Click to expand...

I thought most cameras do this - it is EC in auto modes, exposure indicator in manual. You are just hugely underexposed with your settings. Stick it on iso 1600 and see what happens.

Click to expand...

I did increase ISO to 1600, see my other reply, https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67471600 still under exposed, as if something's broke with the camera metering. I know this room very well, its my study room and I shoot here a lot, it daylight with big windows, and full of light.

Click to expand...

Take a test shot, and look at the histogram. I'm willing to bet it'll show the shot is under exposed.

Click to expand...

But that's the point, I think the camera is reading the light wrongly. Anyway I think I found the problem and I marked the answer.

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You are showing an example where 1/60s, f/7.1, ISO 100 results in a severely underexposed photo. In your study room there, with the outdoor lighting the way it is, do you actually think those are the correct exposure settings? The wording of your responses in several posts suggests that you think these are the right settings for your study room and that the meter is showing incorrect exposure.

Changing metering mode is not going to change the look of that photo. All it will possibly do is change what the meter on the right side shows.

--
Mike Dawson

Oricoh said:

michaeladawson said:

Instead of debating people over how well you know your study room and all that, just take a picture with one of the auto settings.

Put the camera in auto ISO if in manual mode. Open up the aperture to something that lets in more light. Like f/2.8. Set a longer shutter speed, like 1/30s. Or use Aperture Priority. Open the aperture to f/2.8. Set a high ISO like 3200.

Now take a photo. What do you get? What settings did the camera choose? Odds are there's nothing wrong with your camera. Get a properly exposed photo first. Then worry about why the settings aren't what you think they should be.

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Let's assume for a moment that something is wrong with my camera's metering. How does letting the camera measure the light in auto mode is going to help?

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It's called an experiment, and it would have disproven your hypothesis in about 1/40th of a second, or thereabouts.

Oricoh said:

Fair enough, so allow me to simplify or refine my question/problem then:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100 and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

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Hitting the shutter button and taking that image would have resolved that question and told you that yes, indeed, the camera's metering was right and the settings were off. No?

BasilG said:

Oricoh said:

michaeladawson said:

Instead of debating people over how well you know your study room and all that, just take a picture with one of the auto settings.

Put the camera in auto ISO if in manual mode. Open up the aperture to something that lets in more light. Like f/2.8. Set a longer shutter speed, like 1/30s. Or use Aperture Priority. Open the aperture to f/2.8. Set a high ISO like 3200.

Now take a photo. What do you get? What settings did the camera choose? Odds are there's nothing wrong with your camera. Get a properly exposed photo first. Then worry about why the settings aren't what you think they should be.

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Let's assume for a moment that something is wrong with my camera's metering. How does letting the camera measure the light in auto mode is going to help?

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It's called an experiment, and it would have disproven your hypothesis in about 1/40th of a second, or thereabouts.

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I did try different modes and different ISOs, before asking here, if it clarifies it.

Oricoh said:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100

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Sunny 16 rule is 1/100, f/16. Your settings are basically about three stops under that. I find it difficult to believe that your interior lighting is only -3EV below Sunny 16.

Oricoh said:

and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

Click to expand...

Spot metering, gray card, known light level (which is what I'm doubting here).

Oricoh said:

Fair enough, so allow me to simplify or refine my question/problem then:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100 and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

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OK. That is a much better outline of the problem and your question.

Start with the assumption that there is nothing wrong with the camera. There could be, but don't start there.

I don't know your study room so I have no idea how much light is let in by the windows. But clearly, those settings for the specific subject framing, that you think are sufficient in your experience from shooting in that room before, are not correct.

The Sunny 16 rule says that outdoor in full sun, a proper exposure is roughly f/16 at a shutter speed of 1/ISO. A bright cloudy day is about f/8 at 1/ISO. I don't think there is any way that an indoor room is as bright as a cloudy day unless the subject is sitting in an area of the room lit by sunlight streaming in the window or you have wall to wall, ceiling to floor south facing windows.

You ask for a way to tell if the settings are correct or there is an issue with the camera. That's a very tough question. With a single camera, I don't believe there is a way to tell other than just good experience and general knowledge. You really need a second meter to confirm if the settings vary significantly from what your experience tells you. Either a second camera or a stand-alone light meter.

There are light meter apps for smart phones these days. They're not as good as a real stand-alone light meter, but they work well enough. It might be worth it to try one out.

Also, in cases like this, if you see what seems like an obvious error in what the camera shows for exposure, check to make sure you didn't turn on exposure bracketing. You may be in the middle of a bracketing sequence.

BasilG said:

Oricoh said:

Fair enough, so allow me to simplify or refine my question/problem then:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100 and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

Click to expand...

Hitting the shutter button and taking that image would have resolved that question and told you that yes, indeed, the camera's metering was right and the settings were off. No?

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I don't know if its a language issue or just me not explaining the point (and the problem) in a way that is easy for some people to understand, if its the first then I am sorry that English isn't my first language.

Let's use another analogy: take a semi automatic car, that doesn't change gears on the right timing. Then someone says: switch it to manual mode and see if it works. Yes, on manual mode the car works because I switch gears when I feel its time. But I want the convenience of automatic, and I paid for automatic, so the car needs to be taken to a garage to be fixed. In my case you are saying, let the camera decide in auto mode - and my answer is yes, in auto mode, the photo is bright, but the ISO 51k in a bright light room, so its not the photo I want, something is wrong, and based on my experience there is an exposure problem and I can't find where it's coming from.

Is it a settings problem? is it me getting old and blind so I can't read the room's light well? is it a lens problem? Is there an astronomy anomaly and the sun looks bright when it's not? Isn't this forum a place that should be friendly to people with technical problems, and they shouldn't be shut down ?

You don't by any chance have a ND or CPL filter on the lens? I ask because people occasionally forget to remove them when they are done using them, and doing so could definitely result in a higher auto ISO than you might otherwise expect.

Not that I would ever do that or anything! =)

jtr27 said:

You don't by any chance have a ND or CPL filter on the lens? I ask because people occasionally forget to remove them when they are done using them, and doing so could definitely result in a higher auto ISO than you might otherwise expect.

Not that I would ever do that or anything! =)

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Good point, but nope I don't.

Have you checked what you have exposure compensation set to? I just played around with manual settings on my Z7. If I set exp comp to a large minus value, I get a very dark image in the viewfinder and an underexposed image, assuming I follow the camera metering.

(Maybe you have the extra control ring on your lens set to exp comp and you have accidentally changed the setting?)

Thom Hogan said:

Oricoh said:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100

Click to expand...

Sunny 16 rule is 1/100, f/16. Your settings are basically about three stops under that. I find it difficult to believe that your interior lighting is only -3EV below Sunny 16.

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I am somehow familiar with the rule, but is there a formula, calculator to apply it other scenarios? For instance I did try it with ISO 1600 and still the exposure bar was all the way at the bottom.

Since it's evening and dark, I can't reproduce the same conditions, but here is a photo of the same settings in a complete dark room with a small dim table lamp. As you can see the underexposure bar isn't at the bottom as it was earlier today when the room was flushed with light.

Thom Hogan said:

Thom Hogan said:

and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

Click to expand...

Spot metering, gray card, known light level (which is what I'm doubting here).

Click to expand...

Oricoh said:

michaeladawson said:

Oricoh said:

I am not assuming that there is something wrong with the camera, I used it above for illustration to make a point. From the start I assumed there is a setting gone wild, but I couldn't find it.

Click to expand...

Exactly my point. There is no setting gone wild.

Oricoh said:

I found the problem btw (see in one of the replies) from someone's advise, I am used to centre weighted metering and it was for some reason set to matrix. I think this is the solution, it's now darker in my 'studio" so I can't fully test it in the same conditions.

Click to expand...

Center weighted metering vs. matrix can cause differences in a photo's exposure when you are using one of the automated exposure modes. But in your original problem you are in manual mode. It really doesn't matter what metering mode you are using in that case except for what shows on the metering scale.

The rear display showed a severely underexposed photo with the settings you chose. The metering scale simply confirmed it. Switching between center weighted and matrix would not have changed the photo display on the rear LCD (assuming you have your camera display set to show results of settings).

Click to expand...

Fair enough, so allow me to simplify or refine my question/problem then:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100 and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

Click to expand...

Take the picture, look at the histogram. The final image won't lie.

The answer in this case is that you're wrong about what settings you should be using (assuming you want the image brightness to be in the middle of the histogram, which may or may not be true), and checking the histogram would verify that.

You could also use a light meter to double check, etc.

I think most people who have contributed to this thread know what you are saying. And it could be that we are all not writing our responses in a way that makes it clear what we are suggesting.

People are suggesting that you shoot in an automatic mode so that you can compare to a manual mode shot.

Your brain tells you that the exposure should be a certain setting (based on what you remember to be your experience).

Forget what your brain is telling you for a moment. Keep the camera in complete manual mode. But adjust the exposure manually until you get a photo that seems correct.

We have been suggesting that you let the camera's brain tell you what it thinks is the correct exposure. Then you can compare what the camera thinks against what you think (based on manual exposure) or what a manual exposure shows.

Forget the exposure meter over on the right side for now. It's a red herring that will have you chasing something in search of an answer. Just compare manual vs. automatic. I'm betting you will find that they mostly agree with each other. If they are close to each other then it is probably the case that your assumptions on what the correct exposure is for that room are not correct. After you do this you can then start looking at the exposure meter on the right and see how it is reacting in response to your changes in manual settings.

Oricoh said:

BasilG said:

Oricoh said:

Fair enough, so allow me to simplify or refine my question/problem then:

"I am trying to take a photo in light conditions that I believe should be sufficient for circa: 1/70, f/7.1, ISO 100 and my camera decides that the scene is way way under exposed, despite my experience and my needs in terms of noise, how do I check that its not a camera/deep-settings (that I a missing) problem?"

Click to expand...

Hitting the shutter button and taking that image would have resolved that question and told you that yes, indeed, the camera's metering was right and the settings were off. No?

Click to expand...

I don't know if its a language issue or just me not explaining the point (and the problem) in a way that is easy for some people to understand, if its the first then I am sorry that English isn't my first language.

Let's use another analogy: take a semi automatic car, that doesn't change gears on the right timing. Then someone says: switch it to manual mode and see if it works. Yes, on manual mode the car works because I switch gears when I feel its time. But I want the convenience of automatic, and I paid for automatic, so the car needs to be taken to a garage to be fixed. In my case you are saying, let the camera decide in auto mode - and my answer is yes, in auto mode, the photo is bright, but the ISO 51k in a bright light room, so its not the photo I want, something is wrong, and based on my experience there is an exposure problem and I can't find where it's coming from.

Is it a settings problem? is it me getting old and blind so I can't read the room's light well? is it a lens problem? Is there an astronomy anomaly and the sun looks bright when it's not? Isn't this forum a place that should be friendly to people with technical problems, and they shouldn't be shut down ?

Click to expand...

I don't think that's a good analogy. There is nothing semi automatic happening here. Your camera is in full manual mode, without auto ISO, so you are telling the camera not to do anything to make the exposure "correct." You have said to the camera "I take full responsibility for my exposure," and the camera lets you do that. It just dutifully advises you via a dark LCD image that a photo taken with your chosen settings will be severely underexposed. If the photo looks as dark as the LCD preview did, then the LCD preview was not inaccurate. If you turn auto ISO on and the image is exposed correctly, then your camera is metering correctly.

If you don't like the high ISO you can and should use a slower shutter speed, and a wider aperture. That is what full manual control is all about! At least the camera tries to help you by showing you that your image is too dark.

Your camera meter is telling you correctly that you’re severely underexposing and maybe out of the scale. If you’re in manual mode, just open up your aperture, increase your ISO, or slow down your shutter more. Go extreme and open your lens aperture wide open.



I think your settings are not correct for indoor. ISO 100 is extremely low for aperture of f/7.1.



Exposure compensation doesn’t do anything in manual mode, it’s there to override the camera automatic exposure for the other modes.

Gus

As mentioned already by at least one responder I read, that's just the meter showing severe underexposure. You can get a similar reading by leaving the lens cap on.

Look on the top LCD panel for exposure compensation.

Gus Ruan said:

Your camera meter is telling you correctly that you’re severely underexposing and maybe out of the scale. If you’re in manual mode, just open up your aperture, increase your ISO, or slow down your shutter more. Go extreme and open your lens aperture wide open.

I think your settings are not correct for indoor. ISO 100 is extremely low for aperture of f/7.1.

Exposure compensation doesn’t do anything in manual mode, it’s there to override the camera automatic exposure for the other modes.

Gus

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As I have explained in other posts in this thread, I understand what's it saying and I know I can change the other settings, it's just that I disagree with camera's reading, and I think there is something wrong beyond the ISO/Speed/Aperture. I want to have a specific DoF and noise level, so it doesn't help me changing those settings.

For example I changed the ISO all the way to 6400 and It didn't change a thing. I also posted a few other samples, when the room is completely dark at night, and I get better reading from the camera with just a small table lamp. As if it's reading it wrong during bright daylight.

Either I changed something deep in the settings, or something is broken.