Advise on moving from P&S to m4/3

Missed my first post then?

Andrew
Can't read 'em all Andrew. But that was the general tenor of the posts i read.

Surely the G100 is an economical entry level camera for someone graduating from a point'n'shoot? Works fine, and comes with a kit lens that has In-lens IS built in.

In any case and unfortunately these sort of Dorothy Dix threads are only going to elicit recommendations of the products that the responders use and know. (Including myself).

Furthermore to recommend a product that we have no knowledge of is also fraught.

So we get opinions for just about everything on the market as might be expected.

Ends up a bit like "pick a box".
I think we have homed in quite a bit through OP giving constructive feedback.

A
Yes, this is good .... walking down the perilous path of reading every post and evaluating it. This is what makes for the strength of the forum. A truly good forum with knowledge and opinions shared without rancour.

It's a pity that I have not found the time to read all posts.
 
In any case and unfortunately these sort of Dorothy Dix threads are only going to elicit
A bonus point for most obscure reference Tom :-)
Showing my age?

I thought this association was cast in age-old concrete - but perhaps it has gone out of fashion?

It was an "advice" newspaper column based on supplying pre-determined answers to pre-determined questions that were raised.
I had never heard of the name but a quick gander on Google explained it

Dorothy Dix herself has moved on but Parliamentary Question Time is full of "Dorothy Dix" questions from their own side so that the minister can speak at length on the great things they have been doing. Of course both question and answer are both prepared in advance. Not that such questions have any collusion here but the answers tend to be stock in trade responses just the same.
Same here Tom , PMQ's is a pointless waist of time , no question ever gets answered . Though I would argue that Westminster is a farce these days

Being based on our personal individual experience alone if an opinion is being sought then these are quite valuable opinions. However objectivity might be a little harder ....

But I am sure our OP has been helped and it is good that we give our opinions as that is probably all that was required.

So please forgive me for pointing out the bobvious.
I agree with your point we cannot give advice to someone about gear we have never used. So we tend to recommend what we like , which may or may not be what the OP's daughter would want . If she is interested rather than ask what we like perhaps a visit to a shop with some hands on time { if possible } I remember my young teenage daughter at the time being horrified at the size of my GF1 with 20mm , all must compare to phones these days :-(
 
In any case and unfortunately these sort of Dorothy Dix threads are only going to elicit
A bonus point for most obscure reference Tom :-)
Showing my age?

I thought this association was cast in age-old concrete - but perhaps it has gone out of fashion?

It was an "advice" newspaper column based on supplying pre-determined answers to pre-determined questions that were raised.

Dorothy Dix herself has moved on but Parliamentary Question Time is full of "Dorothy Dix" questions from their own side so that the minister can speak at length on the great things they have been doing. Of course both question and answer are both prepared in advance. Not that such questions have any collusion here but the answers tend to be stock in trade responses just the same. Being based on our personal individual experience alone if an opinion is being sought then these are quite valuable opinions. However objectivity might be a little harder ....

But I am sure our OP has been helped and it is good that we give our opinions as that is probably all that was required.

So please forgive me for pointing out the bobvious.
I hadn't heard of Dorothy Dix, but looked her up. She died in 1951, and I never heard any references to her when I was a kid in the early '60s, here in the good old USA. However, apparently her name lives on in some Australian expressions, ergo my not knowing it and it being familiar to you. :)

-J
 
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Weirdly, my daughter wants to know if I have a small film camera she can use. Kids these days.
If you know anyone who still has a darkroom, take your daughter to see the magic that happens when the paper is put in the developer solution.
That was always a dream of mine but ended up having to rapidly clear out the darkroom I built in my parents' house when it sold. I know someone who has a film tank so I can at least show her how to develop film.
 
In any case and unfortunately these sort of Dorothy Dix threads are only going to elicit
A bonus point for most obscure reference Tom :-)
Showing my age?

I thought this association was cast in age-old concrete - but perhaps it has gone out of fashion?

It was an "advice" newspaper column based on supplying pre-determined answers to pre-determined questions that were raised.

Dorothy Dix herself has moved on but Parliamentary Question Time is full of "Dorothy Dix" questions from their own side so that the minister can speak at length on the great things they have been doing. Of course both question and answer are both prepared in advance. Not that such questions have any collusion here but the answers tend to be stock in trade responses just the same. Being based on our personal individual experience alone if an opinion is being sought then these are quite valuable opinions. However objectivity might be a little harder ....

But I am sure our OP has been helped and it is good that we give our opinions as that is probably all that was required.

So please forgive me for pointing out the bobvious.
I hadn't heard of Dorothy Dix, but looked her up. She died in 1951, and I never heard any references to her when I was a kid in the early '60s, here in the good old USA. However, apparently her name lives on in some Australian expressions, ergo my not knowing it and it being familiar to you. :)

-J
i don't like my chances in Australia either ...

But I thought that the "Dorothy Dix" expression would be better understood in the US and UK. I don't know where I got it from but apparently the expression epitomised the discussion where the person giving the advice was the same as the person asking the question. Not quite what was going on here other than the sometimes fact that the advice was only giving the "advice" within the"lens" (so to speak) of their own personal experience.

Dorothy Dix of course is even well before my mature personal experience - but that style of journalism lingers on in "advice columns" specifically - and of course there are those innocent questions raised in parliamentary business which simply are designed to allow a minister to verbally perambulate just how well the party is performing for the country.

I admit that it would be very hard to give full objective advice on all potential possibilities. But usually the OP in this type of question is only looking for an opinion and not looking for expert advice. Treated as such the OP can sift the various opinions and perhaps get the answer that was needed.

It can also be used in polite discussion for no other reason than to stimulate a conversation. Seems to work well on forums also ... :)
 
Greetings from a Nikon shooter.

Though my daughter has been ready to move up from P&S for a while, it looks like the time to do so is approaching as her Canon PowerShot SX620 is showing signs it may not last much longer.

She likes to photography nature, particularly birds and flowers. But she does not want a new camera that is too big/heavy (she considers my Nikon Z9 a monstrously big weapon rather than a camera). My daughter is rather petite and has small hands.

Though I had only considered APSC, some very nice people in Fujiland suggested I also pose my advice request in this forum.

Your suggestions would be most welcome. Though m4/3 would certainly be an improvement over P&S for her, any insights from former FF and APSC shooters (or anyone who combines with the other formats) would be great just in case I end up becoming the owner of a potential m4/3 kit.
I’m going back to the OP requirements. Birds, flowers, not too big/heavy.



This implies to me the following: telephoto lens, good AF for moving subjects, close focus capability, but not necessarily macro, not a big grip body, weight on the lower end of scale.



So I’m suggesting PDAF as well.



Olympus EM5.3, 12-45 f4, and Panasonic 100-300ii would satisfy those requirements, although the Panasonic 100-400 is much better for birds, and version 1 of that lens would be fine but for the risk of getting one with a stiff zoom.



A step up would be OM5, 12-45 f4, and PL 100-400ii. Heavier and more expensive, but meeting requirements even better. For nature, I assume landscape as well and Live ND is a great feature, as is HHHR. But AF is better, and reach is hitting the 400mm sweet spot for birds.
 
Weirdly, my daughter wants to know if I have a small film camera she can use. Kids these days.
If you know anyone who still has a darkroom, take your daughter to see the magic that happens when the paper is put in the developer solution.
That was always a dream of mine but ended up having to rapidly clear out the darkroom I built in my parents' house when it sold. I know someone who has a film tank so I can at least show her how to develop film.
If could have a darkroom I would start shooting film again. I never got tired of the whole process of developing your negatives, exposing the paper, putting in it in the developer, then the fixer, then drying. I even had fun going through contact sheets. And dare I say that I even liked the funky scent of the darkroom?
 
Didn't read all the replies ...
I don't know how much you wish to spend. That is important.

A used camera, like GX8, should be inexpensive. Same of Olympus used cameras.

Used Olympus cameras have phase detect autofocus. Only the Panasonic S5 II and G9 II have phase detect autofocus. The S5 II is a full frame (L mount) camera. The G9 II is a micro 4/3 camera. But it's pretty new, I doubt you will find many used G9 IIs.

Before I upgraded, I owned an original G9. Honestly, it was a great micro 4/3 camera. You can certainly find them used.
While budget is not an issue, I also do not want spend to the point I'd regret it if somehow I end up becoming a dual system user.
This kind of points you to the OM-1.
I'd say I want to get her something nice that will allow her to focus on shooting and not be distracted by the weight gain compared to P&S.
 
Check your messages, Gary!

Marie
 
First: To the OP: Bring your daughter to the store and give her a budget and let her pick out what she wants. Forget about what you would like if she doesn't keep up with it. In the long run, if SHE picks the kit SHE wants she is far less likely to end up dumping it on you out of frustration down the road.
Well, if she were buying a computer or a phone, she would only ask what she can spend and that would be the end of the conversation.

However, because she's seen me as a snapper her whole life, she assumes I have some kind of expertise on things photographic. But in truth, at best I am just able to say one minor thing, maybe two, about Nikon.

We discussed that the most convenient arrangement for me would be if she just gets a Nikon APSC. But we also agreed that I would get some suggestions on APSC and M43 –that would still have some sort potential to not be a inconvenience to me– that she can read about. Then she'd go to the store with an idea of what she wants to try and what budget she is able to spend.

Now if you want to try M43 yourself as a second system for lightweight use esp long tele? Sure, lots of us here do that, but that really should be a separate thread with nothing to do with your daughter's photographic journey.
Frankly, I never had M43 on my radar. I came to this forum because the nice people in the Fuji forum suggested I also reach out to M43 users. I am happy to have started this thread; hopefully I am not inconveniencing anyone.

______________________________________________________________

Now to the Holy Moly part:

SO, that brings us to:

G100, EM10 IV, and, for giggles, the OM-1, in the comparison.

(I am not including the GX9 in this set, as it is discontinued and not readily available anymore.)

Some specs:

G100 (kit includes 12-32mm) Plus the 14-140mm II = $1050. $550 without the 14-140mm.

G100 weight, with body and 14-140mm = 600g

_________________________________________________________

EM10-IV (kit includes 14-42EZ), Plus the 14-150mm II = $1450. $800 without the 14-150mm

EM10 weight, with body and 14-150mm = 650g

_______________________________________________________

OM1, no kit lens, just the 12-100mm =$3400, $2000 for body only, no lens.

OM1 weight, with body and 12-100mm = 1160g

_____________________________________________________________
Weight wise and budget wise these are very interesting suggestions.
 
OP asks for suggestions and the Olympus bandwagon rolls in?

The best entry level camera body for M4/3 at the moment is surely the Panasonic G100. Very affordable, light, and very pleasant to use. Ideal for someone new to the mount system. Not a big risk investment for the OP.

Of course if you only use Olympus what else might we recommend?

Same goes for Panasonic I suppose ....

However balanced advice might be a little thin on the recommendation prairie.
Maybe the first people to respond happen to be Olympus users?
 
Panasonic Lumix GX9 is an excellent very small camera. Panasonic has a very user friendly menu system and there are many lenses available.

I have also used the Canon M6MarkII which is a small camera with an aps-c sensor and a 32.5mp sensor. Canon menu system is user friendly. The M series cameras are no longer made by Canon but are available used and refurbished. I still use this camera and she would love this camera.
 
Weirdly, my daughter wants to know if I have a small film camera she can use. Kids these days.
If you know anyone who still has a darkroom, take your daughter to see the magic that happens when the paper is put in the developer solution.
That was always a dream of mine but ended up having to rapidly clear out the darkroom I built in my parents' house when it sold. I know someone who has a film tank so I can at least show her how to develop film.
If could have a darkroom I would start shooting film again. I never got tired of the whole process of developing your negatives, exposing the paper, putting in it in the developer, then the fixer, then drying. I even had fun going through contact sheets. And dare I say that I even liked the funky scent of the darkroom?
Be careful. There is this thing called "sensitization". It affects some people, by far not all.

Those photo chemicals were for many years part of my full time job. Especially installing those small 1 hour minilabs, to fill the tanks required to mix up some 500 liters of developer and bleachfix. The first few years no problem at all. Then after maybe 8 years or so, just the smell was enough to trigger a nasty skin allergy. And in the large labs that smell was everywhere, from many 10,000 liters of chemicals in developers, usually back then without proper fume extraction as would be required today. Some few workmates had that happen already after 2 years, and they had to find another job. Once sensitized, wearing gloves etc does not help anymore, just the fumes are enough.

Same can happen with many other chemicals. One workmate did build a composite experimental airplane in his garage. The task takes about 5 years if done besides a demanding job. After a few years he got terrible skin rashes by just smelling Epoxy resin. There is no way back once you are sensitized, you have to avoid exposure to the particular chemical for the rest of your life.
 
As you see from the other "suggestions" it's amazing how far off the wheels people's suggestions are, like the biggest, heaviest most expensive M4/3 cameras and lenses. That really isn't at all helpful.
I asked a general/broad quesiton because I know absolutely nothing about M43. The breadth of answers and suggestions is actually helpful in getting an idea of the options available in this format.
Since you mention she likes shooting flowers, maybe a macro lens or screw-on close-up lenses. 58mm filter thread on 14-140mm. Something like the old Nikon 6T close-up lens, for instance. I have that and the 5T both and they're excellent.
Don't call teh poor Nikon 6T old. It reminds me of my age.
 
Thank you Tom. I will also make sure I sure my daughter takes a look at the Panasonic.
The first systems camera that anyone buys, is an experiment. The G100 can mount any M4/3 lens. It is simple, endearing to use and makes capable images. It is also pretty cheap at new price at the moment as good deals are available.
Just like the first car. But even with cameras we do not buy in a vacuum, there is always the influence of something we read and opinions we requested. My very first non-used camera was a Minolta, back when it was a brand with lots of mojo. It was a purchase based on what I read in Popular Photography and other magazines, whatever I discussed with photographers, and whatever whims where whirling through my mind at the time.
Once tried the experience gained leads to the next purchase coming from a better informed base.

Based on past history I doubt if your daughter is thinking about jumping straight into the most technically advanced camera kit that can be had.
Even if she did not mind FF size and weight, the cutting edge would be off the table. No Nikon Z8/Z9, no Sony a1, no Canon R3. But a used Z7, Z6, D850, or D500 would be fine. A D7500, for example, would be a very nice camera; way ahead of P&S with AF that was second-tier at the end of the DSLR run, but still highly competent.

Strictly speaking, she only has to "hard" requirements: better IQ and light weight (subjectively defined as anything far from resembling the Z9 monster) to continue shooting what she likes and maybe try something else. Highly desirables would include being able to get nice action-ish photos of the dog when in the park.
We all tend to recommend the gear we know and use (including myself). If we have chosen well there is nothing wrong with that, but maybe it does leave the decision a bit short on objectivity.
We all do. All I could say about Sony and Canon is why I did not like them based on whatever limited tinkering I had with them up to the last time I held one in my hands. But I would not tell anyone they are bad cameras or inferior to Nikon. And even when speaking about Nikon there would be an element of subjectivity if I told you why I like the Z9 and why I thought the original Z7 was a great little camera that was impossible for me to love.

But even with the subjective factors I find people's opinion's useful as long as they explain why they like a camera, even if it were to boil down to just one thing (e.g., the menu system, lots of buttons and dials, etc.) and as long as that one thing is not simply saying that it is the "bestest" everrrr.
There is an old saying that applies here: "Nobody ever got fired for recommending IBM".
It's been a while since if I come across that saying.
 
My wife (a bit older than your daughter and about 5'6") made the transition from P&S (Panasonic Tz100 & 200) to M43 a year or so ago. We ended up getting her the EM-5 Mk iii and Olympus 14-150. She is delighted with the outcome. She likes the zoom range/reach and is very happy with the size and either puts it in a large handbag or uses a close-fitting small case with shoulder / neck strap.
That's certainly a small kit that I could see my daughter liking. Years ago, when I had a Nikon D3300 with kit lenses (and before she was a teenager), she'd borrow it and never fussed about the weight. At the time she was not fond of changing lenses, but that was overridden by her desire to get the picture.
So, you have trade-offs in every system, they just differ a bit from one system to another. As Janet noted, you are getting a variety of feedback/suggestions in this forum, partly because there are multiple options, partly perhaps because the community has varying needs / drivers and partly, I would suggest, because the requirements are somewhat loosely defined.

Perhaps it would be a good move to sit down with your daughter and discuss a few aspects in more depth and then report back? I know you have asked and commented on some of these but some more granularity might be helpful to you both and to us to help you....
  • What does she like / dislike from her P&S? (Was it a superzoom btw?)
  • What would she like to be able to do better that she can't do today.
  • What did she like / dislike about using your D3300 system?
  • How does she feel about changing lenses frequently?
  • How does she feel about carrying a small bag with a selection of lenses?
  • does she like a super-zoom?
  • What sort of focal length has she been shooting? Does she need/ want to go wider / longer now or in the future?
  • How does she think that her photography hobby might develop in the next few years?
  • Does she want to process RAWs or only use OOC JPEGs (pretty good in the case of OM cameras)? Now and in the future?
Your desire to have something that would be useable for you in the future "just in case" has partly driven OM-1 and equivalent suggestions and heavier lens options too. I think you might also want to discuss this aspect and the potential consequences with her? How would she feel about a camera that is a bit larger / heavier that is better? Ditto lenses.

Hope this helps.
 

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