accurate colors? - dissapointed with new camera (Nikon Z5)

thank you! This seems like a really interesting thought, even if I don' t understand much of it, because I too had the impression that it's not a white balance problem. I'll have a look at what you said!
 
I use a Nikon Z6 with «Flat» profile.
Which may or may not give accurate colors if the WB used isn't accurate for the light conditions
But things happen with color when I import RAW file into Capture One. I normally chose a particular cameraprofile in Capture One.
Which again...may not result in accurate color unless you are also using an accurate WB and a calibrated color space workflow
Sure. But for me, the jpegs are all right when they come straight out of the camera.
Define "alright" . Have you compared with a color chart for actual accuracy? The OP is looking the accuracy required for product photography
So WB is ok. It’s when the NEFs are transfered into Capture One colors seems off from time to time.
Yes...a mismatch in color space workflow or Picture Profile
 
You started with an excellent question, but an incorrect assumption: that the accuracy and EVF and the rear screen are color/RGB accurate.

I'm going to tick off a lot of people with "highly unlikely".

Your goal is not impossible. Every camera has a "palette". Think of natural media. White in water colors is different that in oils. (I never worked much in acrylics.)

If you're going with X-rite for color calibration I would touch base with them. (Great people) They'll give you advice for dialing this all in (like a color checker, etc). It's a great science topic. Look up Joe Brady on Youtube, too.
 
You started with an excellent question, but an incorrect assumption: that the accuracy and EVF and the rear screen are color/RGB accurate.
Thats what i figured, even the LCD and the EFV are different on the same camera. It's too bad though, it would help me a lot.
I'm going to tick off a lot of people with "highly unlikely".

Your goal is not impossible. Every camera has a "palette". Think of natural media. White in water colors is different that in oils. (I never worked much in acrylics.)

If you're going with X-rite for color calibration I would touch base with them. (Great people) They'll give you advice for dialing this all in (like a color checker, etc). It's a great science topic. Look up Joe Brady on Youtube, too.
So you mean it's possible to get the colors on the camera's LCD/EVF and the actual image recorded matching with help of X-rite? That would be great, it would allow me to adjust white balance by eye, according to the way I perveive the scene, make the camera match to what I see.
 
I am a landscape painter and I like to use my photography for painting, so if I can't trust the colors of my camera, it's really frustrating.
Almost all consumer cameras are designed to, by default, provide pleasing colors, not colorimetrically accurate ones, even if the white balance is perfect. The Z5 is not in any way unusual in this respect.
People who need colorimetrically or perceptually accurate colors in digital images (museum art, product catalogs, paint manufacturers etc) must implement a fairly rigorously color managed workflow. In its ultimate form, that means measuring and compensating for the color response characteristics of all your software and devices, from camera and lights to processing software, monitors, printers, printing materials, and all the rest.

All that said, if you shoot raw, you have the ability to easily re-mix your colors, like mixing colors on your painter's palette. So one thing you could start with is to shoot some raw test images, get your white balance right (you can bracket this), and then experiment with all the different color profiles that your software supplies. Maybe one of them will get you close to what you need most of the time. So-called "neutral" profiles are often more colorimetrically/perceptually accurate than default "standard" profiles.
Ok, I just did that, there was "flat" and "neutral" for Nikon. It makes a huge differnce, but I still don't see the bluish hue in the grey bottom concrete. So I'm suspecting a color shift from the camera, that makes greys warmer than they should be, regardless of white balance. Otherwise the white wall would be to cold too.
Note that if you're not using a decent quality calibrated and profiled monitor, it will all be very hit or miss, and likely inconsistent from scene to scene.
I am going to calibrate my monitor soon (for the first time).
The Z5 is essentially just as capable of producing accurate colors, if used in a well-managed workflow, as any other consumer digital camera out there. So you can do it with your camera, with some effort.
You seem confident here, thank you. But I'm still a bit sceptical. What did that diagram mean? Couldn't I find a camera with a more neutral color science from the start, if that helped?

Thanks a lot!
 
Yes...a mismatch in color space workflow or Picture Profile
«All right», as in no obvious mismatch from visual colors of the object photograhed, opposed to the color mismatch in imported NEF in Capture One. The purpose of this is to locate where mismatch occurs. OP suspected camera, I suggest mainly workflow. All details of WB, colorcharts, calibration aso is playing their role.
The "mismatch" could be just a WB issue, just a workflow issue, just a color space calibration issue...or a combination of all 3. I think it's likely all 3 with WB playing the biggest part.

If he gave us a example NEF of a known color (shot of a color calibration chart for example) it would be easy to tell I think

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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
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I’m a Landscape painter. Some things I have learned over the years. Photography and reality are totally different. The camera will never be able to correctly capture what the human eye can see. Tonal values are off. Color is off, subtle shadow colors etc. are lost etc. etc. Each camera company also has their special color nuances. The only way to paint what you actually see is to paint plain air. You see way more information. It’s the true raw format of painters. I have learned a wealth of information and helpful tips by listening to Plein Air Podcasts. Artists give advice and share helpful information. There is nothing wrong with your Z5. Use it as a tool and know its limitations. Use photoshop to pull the shadows etc. record information about color while taking photos. Try not to paint the photo itself.
 
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I’m a Landscape painter. Some things I have learned over the years. Photography and reality are totally different. The camera will never be able to correctly capture what the human eye can see.
And every human can also differ in what they see vs the person standing next to them. But the use of calibration software can at least insure what was captured is what was there.
 
Plein Air podcast with Eric Rhoades. Check it out. Lots of great interviews with top landscape painters living and painting today. Some speak about using photography and mention its limitations etc.
 
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You started with an excellent question, but an incorrect assumption: that the accuracy and EVF and the rear screen are color/RGB accurate.
Thats what i figured, even the LCD and the EFV are different on the same camera. It's too bad though, it would help me a lot.
I'm going to tick off a lot of people with "highly unlikely".

Your goal is not impossible. Every camera has a "palette". Think of natural media. White in water colors is different that in oils. (I never worked much in acrylics.)

If you're going with X-rite for color calibration I would touch base with them. (Great people) They'll give you advice for dialing this all in (like a color checker, etc). It's a great science topic. Look up Joe Brady on Youtube, too.
So you mean it's possible to get the colors on the camera's LCD/EVF and the actual image recorded matching with help of X-rite? That would be great, it would allow me to adjust white balance by eye, according to the way I perveive the scene, make the camera match to what I see.
Last bit first: Adding a ColorChecker to an image when you capture it would give you a reliable, consistent, color target for a start. When you calibrate the computer display/monitor, that anchors down that variable.

X-rite makes everything for color measurements and calibration. I do suggest you give a look through their site. Then you can decide how far "down the rabbit hole" you want to go. https://www.xrite.com/
 
So you mean it's possible to get the colors on the camera's LCD/EVF and the actual image recorded matching with help of X-rite? That would be great, it would allow me to adjust white balance by eye, according to the way I perveive the scene, make the camera match to what I see.
No. You have to consider all of the variables of light, reflectivity, and cast that impact human color perception. (Example: Is the dress blue or gold?) You might be able to match one scene in one scenario, but the second something changes everything will be thrown off. Calibration isn't something you do once and you're done either. You can customize the color cast of the EVF to your taste.

Example: People that work in production proofing studios have to wear18% clothing or smocks to prevent their clothing from casting reflections onto the monitors. If the light where you're viewing the LCD changes your perception is going to change.

You still haven't shared the original RAW image with us. I suspect a higher ISO may have thrown the colors off that much more. The Z5 has the D750's sensor, which is the oldest one in the Z lineup. Here's a quick edit of your JPG on a calibrated system. Using the color mixer sliders (hue,) I also confirmed that there is plenty of blue in the foundation. Does this more closely match your scene? You would expect a cooler cast to the entire scene on a cloudy day, but most would find the warmer (Canon) rendition more pleasing.

dc7de36c975b4e8f96cc876225ab74e7.jpg

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Ok, I just did that, there was "flat" and "neutral" for Nikon. It makes a huge differnce, but I still don't see the bluish hue in the grey bottom concrete. So I'm suspecting a color shift from the camera, that makes greys warmer than they should be, regardless of white balance. Otherwise the white wall would be to cold too.
Personally, I wouldn't try to reach any conclusions from one image. I would try multiple different profiles/recipes on multiple images, to try to find out which ones might or might not work better for you.
I am going to calibrate my monitor soon (for the first time).
This is really a prerequisite for doing any kind of color evaluation of digital images. You can't really learn anything useful about your camera if your monitor is displaying wonky colors (and it probably is, to some extent). You can verify this for yourself by displaying your test picture on any other screens you have (phone, iPad, TV, whatever). They will very likely look at least somewhat different on every screen.
The Z5 is essentially just as capable of producing accurate colors, if used in a well-managed workflow, as any other consumer digital camera out there. So you can do it with your camera, with some effort.
Couldn't I find a camera with a more neutral color science from the start, if that helped?
I doubt it. Every digital camera comes with multiple color sciences -- i.e. all the different profiles/recipes you can choose for any picture. Each of those profiles produces a different mix of colors for any given image.

At the next step of your workflow -- your editing software -- you have another collection of multiple profiles/recipes, each of which can give your picture different colors. Depending on the software, it's completely possible that none of them exactly match any in-camera profile -- i.e. Capture One's "neutral" may not be the same as Nikon's "neutral".

So there is no single "color science" at play here; there are many, many of them.

The reason for this is that the vast majority of photographers don't want to be limited to only neutral or "accurate" colors; they want creative choices. Plenty of people set their camera to "Vivid" and then boost the saturation even more in their editing software, and they are happy as clams, and good on them for it.

So rather than trying to find a different camera with, say, one particular built-in profile that works better for you, I would try experimenting with what you already have, either with in-camera profiles, or with profiles in your editing software. You may solve your problem with minimal effort.

But if that doesn't work, it is possible to generate a color profile for your specific camera with colorimetric accuracy as your intention, use that profile in your editing software, use a carefully profiled monitor, print on a carefully profiled printer, and manage the color transforms all the way through the process. It takes a fair bit of knowledge, and possibly a modest pile of money, but it can be done with any sophisticated camera like your Z5.

This is what museums do, or clothing and paint catalog photographers. They don't look for a camera that is perfectly accurate in all conditions out of the box (because none exists); they carefully profile and color manage the camera they have, along with the rest of their workflow.
 
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What were the light condition and direction at the moment of exposure capturing?

Sunny? Cloudy? Overcast? In the shade?

Early morning, morning, around noon, afternoon, late afternoon, early evening?
The OP replied “cloudy, overcast” and quickly moved on as if this is unimportant.

I personally would pause right here.

A painter understands light. A photographer understands both light and the device that captures light.
10 different scenes? Thoughtfully selected, not random.
To understand your new camera, you must spend plenty of quality time to check it out methodically — perhaps with the first 100 “test” images in different conditions.
Your camera settings? Raw + SOOC JPEG with full EXIF?
The OP still evades this simple, yet essential, request.

So far, mostly words.
 
What were the light condition and direction at the moment of exposure capturing?

Sunny? Cloudy? Overcast? In the shade?

Early morning, morning, around noon, afternoon, late afternoon, early evening?
The OP replied “cloudy, overcast” and quickly moved on as if this is unimportant.
Because even light from an overcast sky at around noon shouldn't be too complicated for finding a correct white balance, should it? As stated elsewhere, I tryd different whitebalance settings, on camara and in post, whithout solving the problem.
I personally would pause right here.

A painter understands light. A photographer understands both light and the device that captures light.
10 different scenes? Thoughtfully selected, not random.
To understand your new camera, you must spend plenty of quality time to check it out methodically — perhaps with the first 100 “test” images in different conditions.
Your camera settings? Raw + SOOC JPEG with full EXIF?
The OP still evades this simple, yet essential, request.
I did answer: I chose RAW only whit the least compression, AdobeRGB color gamut.
So far, mostly words.
 
I sometimes am glad that I have acquired a so what attitude through the 65+ years of taking photos, especially as to colors as they appear in real life vs in photos. The one color thing that I have seen most through the years is not the whites, but the color of water. I live near a large river which most of the time has a predominant water color of what I would call medium brown. But most photos you take or see of this river will come out with blue water. This has been with films of all manner and digitals of many brands. This is so predominant that I have come to expect it. And for me trying to fix the water color without messing up everything else is simply not worth the effort. :-D
 
What were the light condition and direction at the moment of exposure capturing?

Sunny? Cloudy? Overcast? In the shade?

Early morning, morning, around noon, afternoon, late afternoon, early evening?
The OP replied “cloudy, overcast” and quickly moved on as if this is unimportant.
Because even light from an overcast sky at around noon shouldn't be too complicated for finding a correct white balance, should it?
Can be very hard if accurate color reproduction is required and you don't have a known WB reference to work with.
As stated elsewhere, I tryd different whitebalance settings, on camara and in post, whithout solving the problem.
You didn't use a good WB calibration technique.
The OP still evades this simple, yet essential, request.
I did answer: I chose RAW only whit the least compression, AdobeRGB color gamut.
That might be the real issue here. If your workflow and your monitor isn't accurately calibrated for AdobeRGB...you can get some really off color mismatches.
 
Hard to tell without at least a RAW file, and even then I am not sure if your memory is correct that the building was white, while the foundation has a blue tint. In your JPEG, both are different shades of exact gray.
 
Ok, I just did that, there was "flat" and "neutral" for Nikon. It makes a huge differnce, but I still don't see the bluish hue in the grey bottom concrete. So I'm suspecting a color shift from the camera, that makes greys warmer than they should be, regardless of white balance. Otherwise the white wall would be to cold too.
Personally, I wouldn't try to reach any conclusions from one image. I would try multiple different profiles/recipes on multiple images, to try to find out which ones might or might not work better for you.
How can I tell then, which one "works better" for me? I would have to compare pictures and reality. Maybe I have to get a color chart after all and compare.
I am going to calibrate my monitor soon (for the first time).
This is really a prerequisite for doing any kind of color evaluation of digital images. You can't really learn anything useful about your camera if your monitor is displaying wonky colors (and it probably is, to some extent). You can verify this for yourself by displaying your test picture on any other screens you have (phone, iPad, TV, whatever). They will very likely look at least somewhat different on every screen.
The Z5 is essentially just as capable of producing accurate colors, if used in a well-managed workflow, as any other consumer digital camera out there. So you can do it with your camera, with some effort.
Couldn't I find a camera with a more neutral color science from the start, if that helped?
I doubt it. Every digital camera comes with multiple color sciences -- i.e. all the different profiles/recipes you can choose for any picture. Each of those profiles produces a different mix of colors for any given image.

At the next step of your workflow -- your editing software -- you have another collection of multiple profiles/recipes, each of which can give your picture different colors. Depending on the software, it's completely possible that none of them exactly match any in-camera profile -- i.e. Capture One's "neutral" may not be the same as Nikon's "neutral".

So there is no single "color science" at play here; there are many, many of them.
Thank you for this information! I really wasn't aware of this.
The reason for this is that the vast majority of photographers don't want to be limited to only neutral or "accurate" colors; they want creative choices. Plenty of people set their camera to "Vivid" and then boost the saturation even more in their editing software, and they are happy as clams, and good on them for it.

So rather than trying to find a different camera with, say, one particular built-in profile that works better for you, I would try experimenting with what you already have, either with in-camera profiles,
One thing I don't understand: when shooting in RAW only - do these in-camera profiles come into play at all?
or with profiles in your editing software. You may solve your problem with minimal effort.
So, just to make sure I understand you correctly: I take a picture of something like a colorchart in my working room with custom white balance, then check all the profiles provided to find one that comes closest?
But if that doesn't work, it is possible to generate a color profile for your specific camera with colorimetric accuracy as your intention, use that profile in your editing software, use a carefully profiled monitor, print on a carefully profiled printer, and manage the color transforms all the way through the process. It takes a fair bit of knowledge, and possibly a modest pile of money, but it can be done with any sophisticated camera like your Z5.
I'm not sure I can add more to the pile of money a allready spent...feeding a family with three children...
This is what museums do, or clothing and paint catalog photographers. They don't look for a camera that is perfectly accurate in all conditions out of the box (because none exists); they carefully profile and color manage the camera they have, along with the rest of their workflow.
Thank you so much!!
 
You started with an excellent question, but an incorrect assumption: that the accuracy and EVF and the rear screen are color/RGB accurate.
Thats what i figured, even the LCD and the EFV are different on the same camera. It's too bad though, it would help me a lot.
I'm going to tick off a lot of people with "highly unlikely".

Your goal is not impossible. Every camera has a "palette". Think of natural media. White in water colors is different that in oils. (I never worked much in acrylics.)

If you're going with X-rite for color calibration I would touch base with them. (Great people) They'll give you advice for dialing this all in (like a color checker, etc). It's a great science topic. Look up Joe Brady on Youtube, too.
So you mean it's possible to get the colors on the camera's LCD/EVF and the actual image recorded matching with help of X-rite? That would be great, it would allow me to adjust white balance by eye, according to the way I perveive the scene, make the camera match to what I see.
Last bit first: Adding a ColorChecker to an image when you capture it would give you a reliable, consistent, color target for a start. When you calibrate the computer display/monitor, that anchors down that variable.

X-rite makes everything for color measurements and calibration. I do suggest you give a look through their site. Then you can decide how far "down the rabbit hole" you want to go. https://www.xrite.com/
ok, sounds good! Thank you!
 
What were the light condition and direction at the moment of exposure capturing?

Sunny? Cloudy? Overcast? In the shade?

Early morning, morning, around noon, afternoon, late afternoon, early evening?
The OP replied “cloudy, overcast” and quickly moved on as if this is unimportant.
Because even light from an overcast sky at around noon shouldn't be too complicated for finding a correct white balance, should it?
Can be very hard if accurate color reproduction is required and you don't have a known WB reference to work with.
The wall looked white on spot, shouldn't that be close enough as reference?
As stated elsewhere, I tryd different whitebalance settings, on camara and in post, whithout solving the problem.
You didn't use a good WB calibration technique.
The OP still evades this simple, yet essential, request.
I did answer: I chose RAW only whit the least compression, AdobeRGB color gamut.
That might be the real issue here. If your workflow and your monitor isn't accurately calibrated for AdobeRGB...you can get some really off color mismatches.
I'll do that calibration soon. I'll try sRGB and see if it makes a difference. Thank you!
 

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