IQ: Does it matter any more?

Is useful sensor evolution maxed out?
I think it's been established that existing sensor technology is close to maximum theoretical efficiency in terms of light collection. Pixel density is also more than adequate for almost any purpose. What other aspects of IQ would benefit from further sensor advances?
(I exclude shutter technology improvements such as global shutter, and image stabilization which is part of the sensor mount, not the sensor itself).
Funny. I've heard that "maxed out" argument at least a few times a year over the last 20 years. I'm guessing it's not.
Interesting because I have not heard that argument at all until recently. It's only in the last 5 years that we have reached that point.
Well, I've heard it for quite some time, not just the last five years. There are always those who deride new advances as unnecessary indulgences.
While there have been amazing advances in camera technology { Excellent IBIS, AF, multi-image in camera etc } From a pure sensor IQ perspective I don't think things have moved as far as many imagine. Which can be easily demonstrated by looking at for example reasonably controlled raw sample files of cameras going back many years both here and Imaging Resource have a huge selection of camera reviews. You can argue that the advances in camera technology make things easier which is true
Actually, I think the advances have been massive. For example:

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To put this in perspective, the IQ of an R5 is so much higher than the IQ of a 5D that we could literally use, say, the Canon RF 35 / 1.8 IS + RF 85 / 2 IS and get IQ as good as a 5D + 24-70 / 2.8L + 70-200 / 2.8L IS via cropping. The R5 would lose the 24-34mm focal range, though, and have a bit more DOF when doing the most extreme cropping. You could throw in the RF 24 / 2.8 pancake and regain the 24-34mm focal range, however.

That's extraordinary, is it not? Well, I think it is. It's just that, well, we all want the "higher IQ", so we don't actually do that. But we could.
The 5D is 18yrs old , the main advance is more pixels ? I was referring to more recent models say a moderate 10yrs ago :-) Obviously if you go back far enough you will see more differences. I was never suggesting that there were no advances since the start of digital just that things from a purely IQ perspective in recent years have shown minimal advances.

This is the R5 vs the D800 { which will be 12yrs old in Feb } Base ISO and 3200 ISO as in your comparison above. I upsized the D800 to match the R5 and these are major pixel peeping 200% crops :-) No additional processing done

Base ISO



c181a26a1424486398e8510d3dbf3f65.jpg

3200 ISO



6f138cf60e9b48a59100420bc853543a.jpg



You can tinker with the ones I posted above. ;-)
Oh I will :-)

--
Jim Stirling:
“It is one thing to show a man that he is in error, and another to put him in possession of truth.” Locke
Feel free to tinker with any photos I post
 
Is useful sensor evolution maxed out?
I think it's been established that existing sensor technology is close to maximum theoretical efficiency in terms of light collection. Pixel density is also more than adequate for almost any purpose. What other aspects of IQ would benefit from further sensor advances?
(I exclude shutter technology improvements such as global shutter, and image stabilization which is part of the sensor mount, not the sensor itself).
Funny. I've heard that "maxed out" argument at least a few times a year over the last 20 years. I'm guessing it's not.
Interesting because I have not heard that argument at all until recently. It's only in the last 5 years that we have reached that point.
Well, I've heard it for quite some time, not just the last five years. There are always those who deride new advances as unnecessary indulgences.
I have heard the "good enough" argument for a lot longer but the idea that sensor technology has "maxed out" (can't get better) is new. Existing technology has nearly maxed out with improvements being marginal. To get something significantly better will take a completely new technology.
 
Here's a link to a studio comparison featuring Nikon and Canon full-frame cameras from the early 2010s and the present day: https://www.dpreview.com/reviews/im...=1&x=0.5893135207094751&y=-0.2007510300269996

From a purely raw image quality standpoint, any improvements can be described as modest, at best. The technological advances over the last decade that have improved camera performance are largely derived from sensor architecture allowing exponential growth in data processing without any negative impacts on read noise. As a result, today's cameras are built around higher resolution sensors, offering a superior electronic viewfinder experience, improved autofocus, faster burst rates, deeper buffer, superior video performance, and novel functionality such as pre-capture.

To the degree these advances can be credited for photographers going home with more quality keepers, today, than a decade before, image quality can be said to be better. But it's not as a result of sensor technology allowing notably superior image quality at base ISO or high ISO. If anything, advances in AI-generated sharpness enhancement and noise reduction during image processing can be credited with doing far more to expand a photographer's options for making quality images in low light than any engineering advances made in sensor design.
 
The 5D is 18yrs old...
Yeah -- I was going for the whole "past 20 years" thing.
...the main advance is more pixels ?
4x the pixel count, records twice as much light of a given exposure, and has much lower electronic noise.
I was referring to more recent models say a moderate 10yrs ago :-) Obviously if you go back far enough you will see more differences. I was never suggesting that there were no advances since the start of digital just that things from a purely IQ perspective in recent years have shown minimal advances.
Going back 10 years, I would tend to agree. The QE is the same as then, the electronic noise is a bit lower now (I think), but not drastically so, and the pixel counts aren't that much higher.
This is the R5 vs the D800 { which will be 12yrs old in Feb } Base ISO and 3200 ISO as in your comparison above. I upsized the D800 to match the R5 and these are major pixel peeping 200% crops :-) No additional processing done

Base ISO

c181a26a1424486398e8510d3dbf3f65.jpg

3200 ISO

6f138cf60e9b48a59100420bc853543a.jpg
Yeah -- I would agree that, IQ-wise, there's not a big difference from the D800 to modern day.
 
Is useful sensor evolution maxed out?
I think it's been established that existing sensor technology is close to maximum theoretical efficiency in terms of light collection. Pixel density is also more than adequate for almost any purpose. What other aspects of IQ would benefit from further sensor advances?
(I exclude shutter technology improvements such as global shutter, and image stabilization which is part of the sensor mount, not the sensor itself).
Funny. I've heard that "maxed out" argument at least a few times a year over the last 20 years. I'm guessing it's not.
Interesting because I have not heard that argument at all until recently. It's only in the last 5 years that we have reached that point.
Well, I've heard it for quite some time, not just the last five years. There are always those who deride new advances as unnecessary indulgences.
I have heard the "good enough" argument for a lot longer but the idea that sensor technology has "maxed out" (can't get better) is new.
Ah. Yes, I don't disagree.
Existing technology has nearly maxed out with improvements being marginal. To get something significantly better will take a completely new technology.
A big jump, which I'm not sure is even possible, would be a sensor that records not only every photon, but the wavelength of every photon. That would be the best you could possibly do.

However, my understanding is that curved sensors, while bringing nothing new to the sensor advances, per se, will allow for significantly simpler lens designs that will result in higher quality, smaller, and lighter lenses. So, maybe that's the next big jump.
 
The 5D is 18yrs old , the main advance is more pixels ?
Modern sensors also have less noise at higher ISO.
Of course my premise was not that sensors have never improved since the start of digital but rather in recent years things IQ advances have become a trickle
 
I bought the FZ300 when shopping for a replacement for my Pentax W20 weather-proof camera. The FZ300 doesn't have that level of water-proofing, but it holds up in a light rain, and that's all I really need from it. The huge zoom range is not something I've put to use yet (bought mine in 2018). About 95% of my pictures are taken at the 50mm equivalent setting, and I don't think I've gone past 90mm equivalent except for some testing in the backyard. When handling different options at the store, I just liked how the FZ300 felt in hand, it's very usable EVF, and just how easy and pleasant it is to operate. With its f/2.8 lens and effective image stabilization, it's my most capable low light camera; good enough, anyway, for static subjects in dim museums. If and when my E-450 dies, the FZ300 can very easily take its place (though I know I will miss the E-450's optical viewfinder!). Someday I might re-visit a wildlife park, and perhaps then I'll get some use out of the FZ300's telephoto range.
Another factor to consider is how well the latest NR/AI software works with older cameras. As I don't have an FZ300 these are 3 samples from Imaging Resources review { thankfully though the site is closed down they have kept their archive active }. DXO NR, cropped to my favorite 3:2 aspect ration and upscaled to an 18x12" 300 ppi in PS tinkered to taste :-) .

3200 ISO

787ac1307e7a4b339cf6eb23cdfaa5b4.jpg

1000 ISO

70ad57bca6dc44e79510d4bebe85edec.jpg

At its full zoom equiv to a 600mm FF AOV If you are in reasonable light you can get very decent results

aa2f8446510d42cfa426df443285bb40.jpg
I've never really been attracted to those kind of bridge type cameras as if I wanted something with a smaller sensor, I would want something very small. Shots like this though make a good case for such a thing as they are still smaller and more convenient than a larger format camera with an equivalent long lens and it seems with the aid of that software they can achieve some amazing sharpness.







I've always felt that the m43 format is about as small as I'd want to go, but maybe with this new AI type software, I could be happy with even smaller and thus have a camera with more more of the time to do more shooting, which would be a nice thing. Maybe I need to get one of those little Sony RX100 series cameras, that software and do some experimenting....

--
my flickr:
 
... just seem to be programmed to want the greatest of everything, even if it's far beyond anything that would ever be useful to them. Resolution, detail and all of that in photography seem to be one of those things. Sure, a huge format offer a technically higher level of performance, but the question is whether it will be useful for the kind of photography that you do.
This counts for me as well. I consider myself a beginner so I ask questions to learn. Point is, probably for many beginners, I have a limited budget. But for that budget I want to buy the best possible gear. Since I am a beginner it is hard to decide what the best possible gear is for my situation. What I want to prevent is that I am buying something quite expensive, to find out that what I have purchased lacks in image quality. That is why I think newbies like me are focusing on IQ. I do understand I cannot buy the best of the best. I do not have thousands of dollars to spend on a body and a lens. However, the money that I can spend, I want to spend in the best way possible. Then there are other factors that influence my choice. Like for example, I do not want my kit to be very heavy (because then I won't take it with me) and I also want some decent zoom. So all of this together does not make it an easy choice, especially for a beginner.
Well... far be it for me to tell one what they need, but I would say that with photography, bigger really doesn't necessarily mean better in terms of formats. Sure, a FF format camera, all things being equal will have better IQ than something of a smaller format, but that ignores just how good the IQ of smaller formats can be and the fact that in most scenarios it will be tough, if not impossible to tell the difference in IQ from one format to the other.

What then you're left with then is what you'd want to carry and what you're willing to pay for it. Admittedly, full frame cameras these days can be very compact, but then lenses aren't and so as a full package deal, particularly with a long zoom that you're considering might be a disincentive to carry around and as is so often said on these pages, the best camera is one that you have with you.

I would suggest at least considering an m43 kit as for not too much, you can put together a nice kit, particularly if you go used and you likely would be quite satisfied with the IQ. Faced with the same decision as you, I chose this format and now on my 3rd body and a number of lenses later, I'm still happy with it. Close to 10 years ago I got my first of these cameras, but it wasn't until I looked at the photo sharing site Flickr and looked up m43 to see if the image quality of these little cameras stacked up... and to my eyes they certainly did. 10 years later the tech is even better so that the IQ is far better as well.

If you were considering this route, I might go with a used Olympus EM-1 mkII camera, a cheaper all-around type kit zoom to start with and if you want that long zoom there are a couple of cheaper lens that are in the 50-150 range (which would be equivalent to 100-300 on a full frame camera), which can be had for about $100 on the used market. The image quality of these lenses will be very good, but limited in terms of a smaller maximum aperture. If you want something with a wider max aperture for shooting on low light or to blur backgrounds, there's a great, very sharp Olympus 45mm f1.8 lens that you can probably find for just $200...
A friend of mine, who bought a FF Sonny camera against my recommendations (I said that he should start of with smaller, cheaper, more compact gear) and decided that with the lenses he might want to use with it that the thing is too big and too expensive, was talking to me about buying some dedicated video camera that he's read about that's got far better low light performance than the Sony he bought. The thing is that the guy is a newbie to photography and even more so to video... I guess that he just hates the idea of even putting the time into learning photography or video unless he's capturing it on the very best gear that he can get. All of this is of course silly, but it seems that enough folks think this way to sell lots of expensive photo gear. There's a thought process that's more about "what might conceivably be useful to me in the most extreme situation that I haven't yet run into?" rather than the more reasonable thought of "how good do I really need for the kind of thing that I'm most likely to be doing a lot of?
 
... just seem to be programmed to want the greatest of everything, even if it's far beyond anything that would ever be useful to them. Resolution, detail and all of that in photography seem to be one of those things. Sure, a huge format offer a technically higher level of performance, but the question is whether it will be useful for the kind of photography that you do.
This counts for me as well. I consider myself a beginner so I ask questions to learn. Point is, probably for many beginners, I have a limited budget. But for that budget I want to buy the best possible gear. Since I am a beginner it is hard to decide what the best possible gear is for my situation. What I want to prevent is that I am buying something quite expensive, to find out that what I have purchased lacks in image quality. That is why I think newbies like me are focusing on IQ. I do understand I cannot buy the best of the best. I do not have thousands of dollars to spend on a body and a lens. However, the money that I can spend, I want to spend in the best way possible. Then there are other factors that influence my choice. Like for example, I do not want my kit to be very heavy (because then I won't take it with me) and I also want some decent zoom. So all of this together does not make it an easy choice, especially for a beginner.
Well... far be it for me to tell one what they need, but I would say that with photography, bigger really doesn't necessarily mean better in terms of formats. Sure, a FF format camera, all things being equal will have better IQ than something of a smaller format, but that ignores just how good the IQ of smaller formats can be and the fact that in most scenarios it will be tough, if not impossible to tell the difference in IQ from one format to the other.

What then you're left with then is what you'd want to carry and what you're willing to pay for it. Admittedly, full frame cameras these days can be very compact, but then lenses aren't and so as a full package deal, particularly with a long zoom that you're considering might be a disincentive to carry around and as is so often said on these pages, the best camera is one that you have with you.

I would suggest at least considering an m43 kit as for not too much, you can put together a nice kit, particularly if you go used and you likely would be quite satisfied with the IQ. Faced with the same decision as you, I chose this format and now on my 3rd body and a number of lenses later, I'm still happy with it. Close to 10 years ago I got my first of these cameras, but it wasn't until I looked at the photo sharing site Flickr and looked up m43 to see if the image quality of these little cameras stacked up... and to my eyes they certainly did. 10 years later the tech is even better so that the IQ is far better as well.
Thanks for your advice! I appreciate it. Would you recommend M4/3 over APS-C? When I visit a camera webshop, I only see Olympus and Panasonic M4/3 cameras. Are these the only manufacturers? I don't like the idea of buying a used body or lens. I'd rather buy new, because I'm too afraid to buy something that does not function correctly. Which new camera could you advise me for M4/3? Does not have to be the cheapest, but I probably can't afford the most expensive either. What would be a good 'in the middle' model?
If you were considering this route, I might go with a used Olympus EM-1 mkII camera, a cheaper all-around type kit zoom to start with and if you want that long zoom there are a couple of cheaper lens that are in the 50-150 range (which would be equivalent to 100-300 on a full frame camera), which can be had for about $100 on the used market. The image quality of these lenses will be very good, but limited in terms of a smaller maximum aperture. If you want something with a wider max aperture for shooting on low light or to blur backgrounds, there's a great, very sharp Olympus 45mm f1.8 lens that you can probably find for just $200...
A friend of mine, who bought a FF Sonny camera against my recommendations (I said that he should start of with smaller, cheaper, more compact gear) and decided that with the lenses he might want to use with it that the thing is too big and too expensive, was talking to me about buying some dedicated video camera that he's read about that's got far better low light performance than the Sony he bought. The thing is that the guy is a newbie to photography and even more so to video... I guess that he just hates the idea of even putting the time into learning photography or video unless he's capturing it on the very best gear that he can get. All of this is of course silly, but it seems that enough folks think this way to sell lots of expensive photo gear. There's a thought process that's more about "what might conceivably be useful to me in the most extreme situation that I haven't yet run into?" rather than the more reasonable thought of "how good do I really need for the kind of thing that I'm most likely to be doing a lot of?
 
The 5D is 18yrs old , the main advance is more pixels ?
Modern sensors also have less noise at higher ISO.
Of course my premise was not that sensors have never improved since the start of digital but rather in recent years things IQ advances have become a trickle
Are you sure you're talking about IQ advances? ;-)
Sadly both fit the way things are going very well .

Aliens - Did IQ's just drop sharply while I was away? - YouTube
 
It turns out there was a DPR article in August 2023 on this subject saying:
It’s true that we’ve reached a plateau in image quality, but both sensors and cameras continue to improve.
That's a good way to put it.

https://www.dpreview.com/articles/5...-quality-but-cameras-are-still-getting-better
Thank you! Good reference. So improvements in sensor IQ no longer matter (they are not visible), but the readout speed from sensors continues to improve, which improves electronic shutter speed and frame rate.

You could argue that increasing frame rate improves the likelihood that you will take one high-IQ photo out of a large sequence, but that is an extension of my original question.
 
... just seem to be programmed to want the greatest of everything, even if it's far beyond anything that would ever be useful to them. Resolution, detail and all of that in photography seem to be one of those things. Sure, a huge format offer a technically higher level of performance, but the question is whether it will be useful for the kind of photography that you do.
This counts for me as well. I consider myself a beginner so I ask questions to learn. Point is, probably for many beginners, I have a limited budget. But for that budget I want to buy the best possible gear. Since I am a beginner it is hard to decide what the best possible gear is for my situation. What I want to prevent is that I am buying something quite expensive, to find out that what I have purchased lacks in image quality. That is why I think newbies like me are focusing on IQ. I do understand I cannot buy the best of the best. I do not have thousands of dollars to spend on a body and a lens. However, the money that I can spend, I want to spend in the best way possible. Then there are other factors that influence my choice. Like for example, I do not want my kit to be very heavy (because then I won't take it with me) and I also want some decent zoom. So all of this together does not make it an easy choice, especially for a beginner.
Well... far be it for me to tell one what they need, but I would say that with photography, bigger really doesn't necessarily mean better in terms of formats. Sure, a FF format camera, all things being equal will have better IQ than something of a smaller format, but that ignores just how good the IQ of smaller formats can be and the fact that in most scenarios it will be tough, if not impossible to tell the difference in IQ from one format to the other.

What then you're left with then is what you'd want to carry and what you're willing to pay for it. Admittedly, full frame cameras these days can be very compact, but then lenses aren't and so as a full package deal, particularly with a long zoom that you're considering might be a disincentive to carry around and as is so often said on these pages, the best camera is one that you have with you.

I would suggest at least considering an m43 kit as for not too much, you can put together a nice kit, particularly if you go used and you likely would be quite satisfied with the IQ. Faced with the same decision as you, I chose this format and now on my 3rd body and a number of lenses later, I'm still happy with it. Close to 10 years ago I got my first of these cameras, but it wasn't until I looked at the photo sharing site Flickr and looked up m43 to see if the image quality of these little cameras stacked up... and to my eyes they certainly did. 10 years later the tech is even better so that the IQ is far better as well.
Thanks for your advice! I appreciate it. Would you recommend M4/3 over APS-C? When I visit a camera webshop, I only see Olympus and Panasonic M4/3 cameras. Are these the only manufacturers? I don't like the idea of buying a used body or lens. I'd rather buy new, because I'm too afraid to buy something that does not function correctly. Which new camera could you advise me for M4/3? Does not have to be the cheapest, but I probably can't afford the most expensive either. What would be a good 'in the middle' model?
APS-C is fine as well, though in my personal opinion, the only manufactured currently who's really behind the format is Fuji. Canon, Nikon and Sony may have some cameras of this format, but they offer less lenses and see to view it more as something that is meant as a kind of stepping stone to folks trading up to full frame. Fuji has a large ecosystem of bodies and lens, not to mention lots of 3rd party options for lenses as well (and some of those are going to be the real bargains). If I had a few grand burning a hole in my pocket, I just might get a used Fuji xt-5 and a few lenses to go with it. That being said though, the tiny buy still mighty m43 does everything that I need it to.

I currently own an Olympus Pen F body, which I like, but honestly probably wasn't the best choice for someone like me. It's well built, ergonomically nice, but offers more for folks who shoot JPEGs straight out of the camera than for folks like me that shoot RAW and process the photos themselves. My previous camera was an Olympus EM10, which has an older style, slightly lower mpx sensor (16 rather than 20 mpx), but was still plenty capable and something that I used to shoot many of my favorite images with. particularly with an accessory grip (cheap and a very nice addition to the thing) it felt great in the hand and had all of the features that I could ask for. It might have been considered a more entry level offering, but in truth it's a really capable and cheap camera. From waht I've seen, I like the mkII version of that camera even better and I;ve seen those things go for really cheap too. I was just browsing my local Craigslist and found one with the kit zoom even for $150. I'd recommend something like that maybe, though an older Fuji model would also be cheap, though with bulkier, more expensive lens options. Some of the older Fujis don't have the in body lens stabilization (often listed as IBIS), which stabilizes the camera at low shutter speeds so that you don't really need a tripod unless you're shooting at super low shutter speeds. This sort of thing is on most of the m43 bodies and has been super-useful to me. I feel that it kind of closes the gap some between m43 and larger formats as it allows you to get more exposure and that in turn allows for better IQ.

If you're interested in video, you might want to look at Panasonic cameras as well, as in the m43 ecosystem, it's Panasonic that tend to be more featured for that. Models with great video specs are going to be more though as are models that have weather sealing, if you plan to be shooting in a lot of dodgy conditions. I plan to trade my camera up to an Olympus EM 1 mkII at some point as that camera has everything that I want including weather sealing that my Pen F doesn't have, but is going to be far more expensive than the EM10 mkII that I mentioned and in truth the image quality, though great, isn't going to be night and day better with the more expensive body. IQ is surprisingly good with this little format and even with the older style 16 mpx sensor. it might be all that you need.

One thing to try is to look on Flickr for photos taken with any camera that you're considering. You can filter the photos by the camera taken with and in doing so get a sense of waht various cameras are capable of.

If you were considering this route, I might go with a used Olympus EM-1 mkII camera, a cheaper all-around type kit zoom to start with and if you want that long zoom there are a couple of cheaper lens that are in the 50-150 range (which would be equivalent to 100-300 on a full frame camera), which can be had for about $100 on the used market. The image quality of these lenses will be very good, but limited in terms of a smaller maximum aperture. If you want something with a wider max aperture for shooting on low light or to blur backgrounds, there's a great, very sharp Olympus 45mm f1.8 lens that you can probably find for just $200...
A friend of mine, who bought a FF Sonny camera against my recommendations (I said that he should start of with smaller, cheaper, more compact gear) and decided that with the lenses he might want to use with it that the thing is too big and too expensive, was talking to me about buying some dedicated video camera that he's read about that's got far better low light performance than the Sony he bought. The thing is that the guy is a newbie to photography and even more so to video... I guess that he just hates the idea of even putting the time into learning photography or video unless he's capturing it on the very best gear that he can get. All of this is of course silly, but it seems that enough folks think this way to sell lots of expensive photo gear. There's a thought process that's more about "what might conceivably be useful to me in the most extreme situation that I haven't yet run into?" rather than the more reasonable thought of "how good do I really need for the kind of thing that I'm most likely to be doing a lot of?
 
... just seem to be programmed to want the greatest of everything, even if it's far beyond anything that would ever be useful to them. Resolution, detail and all of that in photography seem to be one of those things. Sure, a huge format offer a technically higher level of performance, but the question is whether it will be useful for the kind of photography that you do.
This counts for me as well. I consider myself a beginner so I ask questions to learn. Point is, probably for many beginners, I have a limited budget. But for that budget I want to buy the best possible gear. Since I am a beginner it is hard to decide what the best possible gear is for my situation. What I want to prevent is that I am buying something quite expensive, to find out that what I have purchased lacks in image quality. That is why I think newbies like me are focusing on IQ. I do understand I cannot buy the best of the best. I do not have thousands of dollars to spend on a body and a lens. However, the money that I can spend, I want to spend in the best way possible. Then there are other factors that influence my choice. Like for example, I do not want my kit to be very heavy (because then I won't take it with me) and I also want some decent zoom. So all of this together does not make it an easy choice, especially for a beginner.
Well... far be it for me to tell one what they need, but I would say that with photography, bigger really doesn't necessarily mean better in terms of formats. Sure, a FF format camera, all things being equal will have better IQ than something of a smaller format, but that ignores just how good the IQ of smaller formats can be and the fact that in most scenarios it will be tough, if not impossible to tell the difference in IQ from one format to the other.

What then you're left with then is what you'd want to carry and what you're willing to pay for it. Admittedly, full frame cameras these days can be very compact, but then lenses aren't and so as a full package deal, particularly with a long zoom that you're considering might be a disincentive to carry around and as is so often said on these pages, the best camera is one that you have with you.

I would suggest at least considering an m43 kit as for not too much, you can put together a nice kit, particularly if you go used and you likely would be quite satisfied with the IQ. Faced with the same decision as you, I chose this format and now on my 3rd body and a number of lenses later, I'm still happy with it. Close to 10 years ago I got my first of these cameras, but it wasn't until I looked at the photo sharing site Flickr and looked up m43 to see if the image quality of these little cameras stacked up... and to my eyes they certainly did. 10 years later the tech is even better so that the IQ is far better as well.
Thanks for your advice! I appreciate it. Would you recommend M4/3 over APS-C? When I visit a camera webshop, I only see Olympus and Panasonic M4/3 cameras. Are these the only manufacturers? I don't like the idea of buying a used body or lens. I'd rather buy new, because I'm too afraid to buy something that does not function correctly. Which new camera could you advise me for M4/3? Does not have to be the cheapest, but I probably can't afford the most expensive either. What would be a good 'in the middle' model?
APS-C is fine as well, though in my personal opinion, the only manufactured currently who's really behind the format is Fuji. Canon, Nikon and Sony may have some cameras of this format, but they offer less lenses and see to view it more as something that is meant as a kind of stepping stone to folks trading up to full frame. Fuji has a large ecosystem of bodies and lens, not to mention lots of 3rd party options for lenses as well (and some of those are going to be the real bargains). If I had a few grand burning a hole in my pocket, I just might get a used Fuji xt-5 and a few lenses to go with it. That being said though, the tiny buy still mighty m43 does everything that I need it to.

I currently own an Olympus Pen F body, which I like, but honestly probably wasn't the best choice for someone like me. It's well built, ergonomically nice, but offers more for folks who shoot JPEGs straight out of the camera than for folks like me that shoot RAW and process the photos themselves. My previous camera was an Olympus EM10, which has an older style, slightly lower mpx sensor (16 rather than 20 mpx), but was still plenty capable and something that I used to shoot many of my favorite images with. particularly with an accessory grip (cheap and a very nice addition to the thing) it felt great in the hand and had all of the features that I could ask for. It might have been considered a more entry level offering, but in truth it's a really capable and cheap camera. From waht I've seen, I like the mkII version of that camera even better and I;ve seen those things go for really cheap too. I was just browsing my local Craigslist and found one with the kit zoom even for $150. I'd recommend something like that maybe, though an older Fuji model would also be cheap, though with bulkier, more expensive lens options. Some of the older Fujis don't have the in body lens stabilization (often listed as IBIS), which stabilizes the camera at low shutter speeds so that you don't really need a tripod unless you're shooting at super low shutter speeds. This sort of thing is on most of the m43 bodies and has been super-useful to me. I feel that it kind of closes the gap some between m43 and larger formats as it allows you to get more exposure and that in turn allows for better IQ.

If you're interested in video, you might want to look at Panasonic cameras as well, as in the m43 ecosystem, it's Panasonic that tend to be more featured for that. Models with great video specs are going to be more though as are models that have weather sealing, if you plan to be shooting in a lot of dodgy conditions. I plan to trade my camera up to an Olympus EM 1 mkII at some point as that camera has everything that I want including weather sealing that my Pen F doesn't have, but is going to be far more expensive than the EM10 mkII that I mentioned and in truth the image quality, though great, isn't going to be night and day better with the more expensive body. IQ is surprisingly good with this little format and even with the older style 16 mpx sensor. it might be all that you need.

One thing to try is to look on Flickr for photos taken with any camera that you're considering. You can filter the photos by the camera taken with and in doing so get a sense of waht various cameras are capable of.
Thanks very much Aaron801!
If you were considering this route, I might go with a used Olympus EM-1 mkII camera, a cheaper all-around type kit zoom to start with and if you want that long zoom there are a couple of cheaper lens that are in the 50-150 range (which would be equivalent to 100-300 on a full frame camera), which can be had for about $100 on the used market. The image quality of these lenses will be very good, but limited in terms of a smaller maximum aperture. If you want something with a wider max aperture for shooting on low light or to blur backgrounds, there's a great, very sharp Olympus 45mm f1.8 lens that you can probably find for just $200...
A friend of mine, who bought a FF Sonny camera against my recommendations (I said that he should start of with smaller, cheaper, more compact gear) and decided that with the lenses he might want to use with it that the thing is too big and too expensive, was talking to me about buying some dedicated video camera that he's read about that's got far better low light performance than the Sony he bought. The thing is that the guy is a newbie to photography and even more so to video... I guess that he just hates the idea of even putting the time into learning photography or video unless he's capturing it on the very best gear that he can get. All of this is of course silly, but it seems that enough folks think this way to sell lots of expensive photo gear. There's a thought process that's more about "what might conceivably be useful to me in the most extreme situation that I haven't yet run into?" rather than the more reasonable thought of "how good do I really need for the kind of thing that I'm most likely to be doing a lot of?
 

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