Kodakrevisited
Senior Member
I am seeing phones advertised as having 100mp and even 200mp cameras, this cant actually be true surely ? so how are they getting away with these claims ?
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100mp and even 200mp cameras claimed on phones.....really ???
- Thread starter Kodakrevisited
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Kodakrevisited
Senior Member
Indeed, 200MP smartphone cameras have become a hot topic in the tech world. However, let’s peel back the layers and examine this trend:
- Pixel Binning: These high-megapixel sensors use a technique called pixel binning. Essentially, they group four pixels together (arranged in a 2x2 quad square) and treat them as one large “superpixel.” This process improves the signal-to-noise ratio, especially in low-light conditions. Larger pixels generally mean better image quality due to their increased surface area for capturing light1.
- Samsung Galaxy S23 Ultra: Samsung’s flagship S23 Ultra boasts a 200MP main camera. But here’s the twist: it doesn’t output full 200MP resolution. Instead, it uses pixel binning to create a 50MP image with improved low-light performance. The Ultra model also features an Adaptive Pixel sensor, enhancing processing capabilities1.
- Motorola Edge 30 Ultra: Released in September 2022, the Motorola Edge 30 Ultra also sports a 200MP camera using pixel binning. Similarly, the Infinix Zero Ultra (released in October 2022) follows suit1.
- Do We Really Need It?: While the numbers dazzle, practicality matters. Smartphone camera sensors often lack the finesse of dedicated camera optics. Even a 100MP sensor can fall short in overall performance. Manufacturers sometimes cram megapixels into specs to inflate prices without significantly improving resolution2.
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Djingonthenet
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As far as I am aware, and I'm no Samsung fan, on the ultra there is a Super Hi-Res 200mp mode that captures a 3-4 second exposure image @ 200mp resolution, so don't expect crisp fast action shots, purely for very still targets like landscapes. There are S23U users on here that can confirm that. Similarly on the Honor 90, manufacturers can get away with a bit of smoke and mirrors but if you advertise 200mp, you can't really get away from that one.
How good those sensors are is a completely different kettle of fish. The S23U main sensor is destroyed by quite a lot of competitors, pretty much all on Chinese phones and their global variants.
How good those sensors are is a completely different kettle of fish. The S23U main sensor is destroyed by quite a lot of competitors, pretty much all on Chinese phones and their global variants.
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Unless you had been living under the rock, you would know 100 MP sensors had been out for a long time. 200 came last year and a number of phones have used it. There are also different flavours of each, some binning a different ways (nona/quad) but the aim is the same - provide highest resolution under given circumstances. It's not different to 48, 50 or 64 MP sensors almost everyone (including Apple) is using today. With the advancement of computational photography, every bit of information has become important, even if not 'perfect'. Taking in account that the Bayer sensor itself is 'computational' device, IMO the more is better. Expecting to get 'perfect' 200MPixels from the tiny chip is unreasonable - but expecting that 12 (actually <10MP) would be 'enough' is also the same. Many people out there have been producing impressive results with these tiny quad bayer sensors - the fact is that the results from 200 MP (quad) sensor are more detailed than from 48 (quad) sensor, which gives us the opportunity to zoom/crop better. The truth, though is that the lenses at the front of these sensors are the weakest link and the laws of physics get in the way. But, you should try the phones with one of these. You may realise how hard it would be to go back to 'mainstream' resolutions...
BTW, check historical posts of people like Drzewoid or melodika - they had been pulling incredible amount of details form phones (much before Apple invented 48MP :-D). Some good people moved to another platform due to uncertainty about DPR future....
BTW, check historical posts of people like Drzewoid or melodika - they had been pulling incredible amount of details form phones (much before Apple invented 48MP :-D). Some good people moved to another platform due to uncertainty about DPR future....
jan pawlak
Leading Member
Kodakrevisited
Senior Member
Most people dont know a Megabyte from a Gigabyte, the difference between ROM and RAM, they have no concept of how much data a Terabyte actually is and no idea what a megapixel is either, its just a word to most people, so more megapixels must be better they think and manufacturers can attempt to baffle with BS
I find it very hard to believe these sensors have "two hundred and nine million seven hundred and fifteen thousand and two hundred" imaging pixels, then we get this whaffle about pixel binning and AI and people fall for it, I would need a proper demonstration and test for myself before I took this seriously, I was shooting as a photographer for a living only a couple of years ago and I shot at 6MP and that was plenty
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mega·pixel[ˈmɛɡəpɪksəl]
NOUNCOMPUTINGmegapixel (noun) · megapixels (plural noun) · MP (noun) · MPs (plural noun)
I find it very hard to believe these sensors have "two hundred and nine million seven hundred and fifteen thousand and two hundred" imaging pixels, then we get this whaffle about pixel binning and AI and people fall for it, I would need a proper demonstration and test for myself before I took this seriously, I was shooting as a photographer for a living only a couple of years ago and I shot at 6MP and that was plenty
"
mega·pixel[ˈmɛɡəpɪksəl]
NOUNCOMPUTINGmegapixel (noun) · megapixels (plural noun) · MP (noun) · MPs (plural noun)
- a unit of graphic resolution equivalent to one million or (strictly) 1,048,576 (2) pixels:"a 3.2-megapixel camera"
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Djingonthenet
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I'm an IT consultant so absolutely know what those terms mean, was coding software in hex machine code < assembler in the early 1980s!
Manufacturers will almost certainly default to 1MP=1000000 pixels because as you point out the average person has no idea how bits are stored or indeed what a bit is in the first place. That doesn't necessarily mean that they are trying to deceive anyone into thinking that their sensors cannot generate images at about the stated MP count, there may be a handful of pixels under or over but are rounded to the nearest, for example my phone takes 50MP photos, but if you look at the image itself it is in fact 8160x6120 which is a fraction under 50 million, this may be a crop from the actual sensor size to minimise on distortion or it's full capacity - tbh I couldn't care less as long as it takes great photos.
Samsung are renowned image sensor manufacturers so there is no reason to suspect that they can achieve such a high number of pixels on such a small sensor, I've heard rumours of 400MP sensor coming soon, which to be honest is silly unless you want to blow up a photo to the size of your house. For a phone, you are limited to a maximum size of a sensor, obviously because of their thickness, I think 1" is a big as you will ever get, technology though can improve on this limitation by packing in more pixels, a 1GP sensor isn't out of the question within the next 5-10 years (on a phone) on a 1" sensor the quality would be outstanding and by that time the processor would be able to offer ZSL instead of the 4 seconds capture which you currently have to deal with. I can remember talk of using atoms as bits in RAM and ROM or as transistors within a processor, how far away we are from that I don't know or whether it was a load of balls but if it is something still being developed there is nothing to suggest that that technology couldn't be implemented in an image sensor, anyone for 1PP (Petapexel) camera?
Let's say there are 3 image sensor manufacturers.
Out of 3 brands, one will always advertise 8000x6000 sensor, and inside all the smartphones the photo comes out 8000x6000.
Other 2 brands advertise sensor 8000x6000, but all the smartphones have 4000x3000.
So people recognise allready that one brand and get smartphones with that sensor.
But if smartphone manufacturer is downgrading image sensor, he is ruining image sensor manufacturers brand name.
Imagine what people think of that brand, if technical spec sheet says 200 Mpix, but maximum image is 12 Mpix! People think that they are scammers and won't upgrade smartphone. There is brand damage and insanely massive revenue loss.
Out of 3 brands, one will always advertise 8000x6000 sensor, and inside all the smartphones the photo comes out 8000x6000.
Other 2 brands advertise sensor 8000x6000, but all the smartphones have 4000x3000.
So people recognise allready that one brand and get smartphones with that sensor.
But if smartphone manufacturer is downgrading image sensor, he is ruining image sensor manufacturers brand name.
Imagine what people think of that brand, if technical spec sheet says 200 Mpix, but maximum image is 12 Mpix! People think that they are scammers and won't upgrade smartphone. There is brand damage and insanely massive revenue loss.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
I'm not sure I follow. My Samsung has a 200Mp sensor, the sensor data sheet says the same and files that size can be obtained.
What exactly do they need to provide?
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
However hard it may be for you to believe that doesn't detract from reality. 16320 x 12388 is the output maximum resolution from Samsung's HP3.
Loading…
semiconductor.samsung.com
16,320 x 12,288
It's not waffle. What doe you want demonstrating?
Okay, well having sensors with 200MP doesn't preclude you from using your 6MP sensor?
I was shooting commercial work on a 6MP canon 10D for a number of years. It was a solid camera. But, after some years, I gave it up for a 20D, 40D, etc. etc.
Just because sensor resolution has gotten larger (across all camera formats), you can still shoot, if you wish, on cameras that are closer to the canon 10D if you wish. I guess that I am missing the point of your post.
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Don't stress too much about naysayers, they still need the proof the world is not flat. The manufacturer working with 3 or 4 nm chip architecture clearly demonstrated they are capable of squeezing 200MP on the tiny chip. They might even do 400 or whatever they please. Whether everybody needs it is another matter, but it pushes the boundaries. It's good they are doing it, otherwise we would be stuck on 640 kB of memory or 3MP - as 'nobody' needs more.
Kodakrevisited
Senior Member
I can see that I will have to buy one and decide for myself, if I buy a used one I can always sell it if I want to, I admit I am intrigued
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
Ha indeed. Well maybe let's put it out there that was are still using film and the whole processing pipeline is AI
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
With what Samsung provide with the s23 ultra. 200Mp direct.
Here are different S23 models, but amongst them are no 200 Mpix version. So even 50 Mpix is too much for Samsung.
There should be huge fines in EU for false advertising. It gets product range more transparent, selecting smartphone would be faster. The fine money would help out turning inflation.
There should be huge fines in EU for false advertising. It gets product range more transparent, selecting smartphone would be faster. The fine money would help out turning inflation.
Ephemeris
Veteran Member
Perhaps your not quite sure how to drive it? 200MPHere are different S23 models, but amongst them are no 200 Mpix version. So even 50 Mpix is too much for Samsung.
There should be huge fines in EU for false advertising. It gets product range more transparent, selecting smartphone would be faster. The fine money would help out turning inflation.
If you go to the supplied camera app.
Select the format of the image
What do you see as the option at the top left?
Perhaps ease up on the slating of companies just for the moment.
The 200Mp output does drop to a four to one binning for lower light levels, which gives a 50Mp output.
Other combinations and ratios available depending on still or video modes.
Could I perhaps help you with your 200Mp phone to get these modes from it you may be struggling with?
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