I want Nikon to give me a camera with global shutter (now).

I want Nikon to give me a camera with global shutter (now).


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I have visions of these sports photographers spraying and praying 120fps getting that perfect shot where the ball leaves the bat and then culling through 10,000 images in the press room. They may be wishing for 15fps and iso 100 before too long.
You do? I'm not a pro sports photographer but "spray and pray" is the last thing I imagine them doing. I think they are skilled and experienced enough to have the timing down and know that a very short press of the shutter is going to give them the shot they want. If not, they're going to be going through those 10,000 shots while their fellow photographers are beating them to submission/posting.
 
I have visions of these sports photographers spraying and praying 120fps getting that perfect shot where the ball leaves the bat and then culling through 10,000 images in the press room. They may be wishing for 15fps and iso 100 before too long.
120 fps seems to be limited to about 1.8 seconds or around 180 shots.
It's not just the buffer limit that comes into play, but also how fast the buffer fully clears. For a camera that's used at high frame rates in continuous sports coverage, that buffer clearance matters big time.

Nikon has their own version of this issue: the Zf. The Zf has an 186 frame raw buffer at the largest possible raw file size, which is great: I can take 18 seconds worth of continuous imagery at the max setting I'd actually use on the camera. But...if the buffer then takes 30-60 seconds to clear, well, that starts taking away from how big/small that buffer is.

This is why the current high-sustained write rate CFe Type B cards work so well in cameras, such as the Z9: the allow a large buffer to start with, but they clear buffer incredibly fast.
As the body does not go on sale for about 3 months,
"Spring 2024" starts in February? ;~)
the ISO range is reduced by 2.5 stops and nothing is clarified as to actual DR it will be sometime before there is significant user feedback.
It's not 2.5 stops, it's 1.something stops. However, that does indicate that the electron well capacity of the A9 Mark III is smaller than that of the A9 Mark II, which makes the camera slightly less useful for some situations.
Given that the talking heads already have their pre-production versions, and B&H is taking backorders, I think February might be a reasonable expectation.
 
Global? Who came up with that stupid term.
No idea, but it's been around for at least 20 years (google shows ieee papers that refer to global shutters from 2003, anyway).
Global? The first thing I asked myself was - does my Z9 not work in some countries?
Not only that, it can't be left on an incline because of it's rolling shutter.
 
I have visions of these sports photographers spraying and praying 120fps getting that perfect shot where the ball leaves the bat and then culling through 10,000 images in the press room. They may be wishing for 15fps and iso 100 before too long.
You do? I'm not a pro sports photographer but "spray and pray" is the last thing I imagine them doing. I think they are skilled and experienced enough to have the timing down and know that a very short press of the shutter is going to give them the shot they want. If not, they're going to be going through those 10,000 shots while their fellow photographers are beating them to submission/posting.
I think he's saying the same thing as you.. there's close to 0 use-case for 120fps in action-sports/competition. High-speed photography is used in sports-analysis today and probably the smallest jpeg is more than enough and there are already cheaper solutions.

- M
 
Is Sony giving up on the ~$4,000 to $4,500 FF camera market? What's to face the Z8?
These cameras were likely in development for extended periods of course but I spose you could argue the R5 has been out for awhile and the Z8 was somewhat predictable.

Maybe Sony think its better to not go after a market thats already quite crowded with Canon and Nikon already involved? instead target a smaller ultra fast action camera market?

I would say though that whilst the announcement has made waves I'm wondering how big that market will actually be.
Its a fair question. This almost seems like a halo product rather than a practical one.

I have visions of these sports photographers spraying and praying 120fps getting that perfect shot where the ball leaves the bat and then culling through 10,000 images in the press room. They may be wishing for 15fps and iso 100 before too long.
I'm guessing that might actually end up appealing more to ultra high speed photography, things like water droplets, exploding objects, etc.
 
Global? Who came up with that stupid term.
No idea, but it's been around for at least 20 years (google shows ieee papers that refer to global shutters from 2003, anyway).
Global? The first thing I asked myself was - does my Z9 not work in some countries?
Not only that, it can't be left on an incline because of it's rolling shutter.
Global was also probably used as it usually means (roughly) "everything". My guess is that if we called it something like "full sensor shutter" that may confuse some people or get misinterpreted.
 
I have visions of these sports photographers spraying and praying 120fps getting that perfect shot where the ball leaves the bat and then culling through 10,000 images in the press room. They may be wishing for 15fps and iso 100 before too long.
120 fps seems to be limited to about 1.8 seconds or around 180 shots.
It's not just the buffer limit that comes into play, but also how fast the buffer fully clears. For a camera that's used at high frame rates in continuous sports coverage, that buffer clearance matters big time.

Nikon has their own version of this issue: the Zf. The Zf has an 186 frame raw buffer at the largest possible raw file size, which is great: I can take 18 seconds worth of continuous imagery at the max setting I'd actually use on the camera. But...if the buffer then takes 30-60 seconds to clear, well, that starts taking away from how big/small that buffer is.

This is why the current high-sustained write rate CFe Type B cards work so well in cameras, such as the Z9: the allow a large buffer to start with, but they clear buffer incredibly fast.
As the body does not go on sale for about 3 months,
"Spring 2024" starts in February? ;~)
for the meteorologists on March 1. It's a leap year, which gives Sony an extra day :)
the ISO range is reduced by 2.5 stops and nothing is clarified as to actual DR it will be sometime before there is significant user feedback.
It's not 2.5 stops, it's 1.something stops. However, that does indicate that the electron well capacity of the A9 Mark III is smaller than that of the A9 Mark II, which makes the camera slightly less useful for some situations.
 
Its a fair question. This almost seems like a halo product rather than a practical one.

I have visions of these sports photographers spraying and praying 120fps getting that perfect shot where the ball leaves the bat and then culling through 10,000 images in the press room. They may be wishing for 15fps and iso 100 before too long.
Chris and Jordan did a buffer test in their firsthand-on video.
Shooting Lossless compressed RAW they got around 127 shoots before the buffer was full. On a fast CF Express A card, it took around 11sec to clear the buffer.
So, if you are spraying and praying to fill the buffer, wait for the buffer to empty to do the next spraying and praying and so on, you can get 5 burst a minute or 635 pictures / min.
This means It will take you 15min to hit 10.000 pictures.
 
If they want a stacked sensor with global shutter they will have likely designed it, subject to production costs for a FX Flagship Z camera. However the Fab costs (by Sony or TowerJazz etc) will be high, particularly if its use is restricted to only 1 flagship.
So don't restrict it. D3/D700, Z9/Z8. I'd throw in D4/Df too except the Df didn't sell anywhere near as well as the D700 did in comparison to the D3. Too early to say about the Z8.
Well Nikon Imaging just announced decent results for 2nd Q2024, thanks in part to high Z8 sales.

"Revenues grew on strong sales in the Imaging Products Business,...Sales volumes of mirrorless cameras, mainly the Z 8, and interchangeable lens of mirrorless cameras increased. ASP rose with the shift toward mid/high-end cameras. And the weaker yen helped."

And they forecast increased sales of 800 000 cameras and 1250 000 lenses for FY 24 /3. Nikon will also increase its R&D
That means lower end bodies are in the pipeline.
https://www.nikon.com/company/ir/ir_library/result/#y2024
Unless and until Nikon works out all the cons that surface from using a global shutter I don't think you will see it in a Z9 II. More likely that Nikon would make some new body for it so they have two "flagship" choices. Like the A1/A9 and rumored R3/R1.
Perhaps a camera design team, in Nikon R&D, could be well advanced on a sister flagship for the Paris Olympics. Perhaps it will be a Z9s launched 2 1/2 years after the Z9.

Time will tell, obviously....
And if they're increasing R&D, we're not going to see the fruits of the R&D in the near future. It's going to be more downstream bodies down the line from now on if they're projecting more units of cameras and lenses sold. Things like your Z5ii, Z50ii, to name a few.
 
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Tell me, what can you not do because of the lack of a global shutter? I asked this question myself, and the answer is: 'nothing.' Of course, this is a big technical breakthrough, but in practical terms, it isn't going to change much for 99% of the people
That's exactly what I asked myself before I hit the "Buy" button on B&H. I had to answer that the Z9 I'm working with is already beyond my needs. Never saw rolling shutter shooting fast moving birds. Mostly do landscapes which have been outstanding. As well as portrait work which has also been the best I've experiences in the 25 years I've been doing this. So needless to say I never hit that Buy button. Even the B&H rep whom I spoke to who was a photographer as well, stated the Z9 is already such an amazing camera by bother with a newly released global shutter if I don't do what what would illustrate an improvement. I also near NEVER use a flash. So I'm good to go.
 
Tell me, what can you not do because of the lack of a global shutter? I asked this question myself, and the answer is: 'nothing.' Of course, this is a big technical breakthrough, but in practical terms, it isn't going to change much for 99% of the people
There are uses for a global shutter. I feel no need to tell you what they are. If the scenarios where a global shutter is useful don't apply to your shooting then don't buy a camera with a global shutter. Really quite simple.

I dare say that shooting 120 fps doesn't change much for 99% of the people either. But there you are. What couldn't people due because of the lack of retro dials? Sometimes it's not about what you can do, it's how you do it.
 
Is Sony giving up on the ~$4,000 to $4,500 FF camera market? What's to face the Z8?
These cameras were likely in development for extended periods of course but I spose you could argue the R5 has been out for awhile and the Z8 was somewhat predictable.

Maybe Sony think its better to not go after a market thats already quite crowded with Canon and Nikon already involved? instead target a smaller ultra fast action camera market?

I would say though that whilst the announcement has made waves I'm wondering how big that market will actually be.
Its a fair question. This almost seems like a halo product rather than a practical one.

I have visions of these sports photographers spraying and praying 120fps getting that perfect shot where the ball leaves the bat and then culling through 10,000 images in the press room. They may be wishing for 15fps and iso 100 before too long.
Which is why I bound Fn2 on my Z6, Z6ii and Z9 to Rating. See something I like, got a moment when there's no action, start rating away.

Once the game ends, open Snapbridge, filter by rated, download, and off to the socials or whoever needs the photos.
 
If they want a stacked sensor with global shutter they will have likely designed it, subject to production costs for a FX Flagship Z camera. However the Fab costs (by Sony or TowerJazz etc) will be high, particularly if its use is restricted to only 1 flagship.
So don't restrict it. D3/D700, Z9/Z8. I'd throw in D4/Df too except the Df didn't sell anywhere near as well as the D700 did in comparison to the D3. Too early to say about the Z8.
Well Nikon Imaging just announced decent results for 2nd Q2024, thanks in part to high Z8 sales.

"Revenues grew on strong sales in the Imaging Products Business,...Sales volumes of mirrorless cameras, mainly the Z 8, and interchangeable lens of mirrorless cameras increased. ASP rose with the shift toward mid/high-end cameras. And the weaker yen helped."

And they forecast increased sales of 800 000 cameras and 1250 000 lenses for FY 24 /3. Nikon will also increase its R&D
That means lower end bodies are in the pipeline.
https://www.nikon.com/company/ir/ir_library/result/#y2024
Unless and until Nikon works out all the cons that surface from using a global shutter I don't think you will see it in a Z9 II. More likely that Nikon would make some new body for it so they have two "flagship" choices. Like the A1/A9 and rumored R3/R1.
Perhaps a camera design team, in Nikon R&D, could be well advanced on a sister flagship for the Paris Olympics. Perhaps it will be a Z9s launched 2 1/2 years after the Z9.

Time will tell, obviously....
And if they're increasing R&D, we're not going to see the fruits of the R&D in the near future. It's going to be more downstream bodies down the line from now on if they're projecting more units of cameras and lenses sold. Things like your Z5ii, Z50ii, to name a few.
I've heard from Nikon, the R&D budget includes testing and refinement, as much as future products.

The R&D allocations have been sustained for Imaging Division. This is clear if one reads the latest Quarterly report, together with earlier editions.
 
Tell me, what can you not do because of the lack of a global shutter? I asked this question myself, and the answer is: 'nothing.' Of course, this is a big technical breakthrough, but in practical terms, it isn't going to change much for 99% of the people
Was exactly what I was thinking when I made this tread.

Despite all the Technologie advancements we have had over the last 20 years in photography, even going from DSLRs into mirrorless and from 1. gen sensor tech into now the global shutter era, you have a hard time coming up with an idea for a picture, that you can't take with a 15-year-old DSLR.

All the new tech, just make our life easier, but it doesn't make us better - to a point.
Two things, to me, stand out as groundbreaking, and does make our photographe so much better.

One is how much better our sensors has become in making a clean image without noise, in lowlight performance, in useful ISO range, and for some, in the amount of details they can capture in MP.

The second truly groundbreaking advancement is that we (happened already with the Z9), moved away from a mechanical dependency to a full electronic controlled camera.
This opens op for whole new possibilities in the future.
 
From my polling: Z6 III, 60mp+ camera, and Z70/Z90 speed DX camera.

From my own personal opinion, Z6 III is urgent, Z50 II and Z90 are getting urgent, and some day a higher resolution camera. Add perhaps a mild update to the Z9 (e.g. the Z9s type of update).
I am with you all the way on this (except for the 60mp+ camera. Don't see any reason for that), and I guess most people agree that is the route Nikon need to travle.

One thing I didn't put in my poll as an option though, was the option for a Z6 III with a stacked sensor. That is an option too, and one I think will be more likely to happen than a global one.
 
The cat is out of the box. We now have the first modern photo / hybrid camera with a global shutter, The Sony a9 III.
Though the specs are impressive, this sensor (like everything humans make) is a compromise and might not suit every photographer.

The a9 serie of cameras, have always been Sony's sport / action-oriented camera, and this new version seems to continue that tradition. Super-fast AF, fast framerate, lowish MP count, and not the widest in its ISO range.
We don't know about its lowlight performance, or its picture quality compared to a standart backside illuminated sensor.
The problem here is most people think every sport requires high shutter speeds and high iso at all times. the biggest drawback of this global shutter is the low base iso setting of 250iso many motor sport shooters will use a very low iso setting and very slow shutter speeds to get wheels and backgrounds blurred, Nikon did this for motorsport photographers.

"While a minimum ISO of 200 isn’t an issue if you’re shooting at smaller apertures or in lower light, it’s a real issue if you’re trying to shoot at wide apertures in bright light, or to use slower shutter speeds to achieve motion blur. Of course, you can always use an ND filter in such situations, but they’re a nuisance, especially if you’re using multiple lenses, and want to switch back and forth between tack-sharp and creatively blurred shots.

This is one area where Nikon’s dedicated sensor design has paid off for them: The D850 has the first true ISO 64 capability in an SLR. (Other cameras have special “Lo” ISO settings that will get there, but those come at the expense of poor tonal qualities and blown highlights.) Sanbongi-san told me that they developed the D850’s true ISO 64 capability in response to requests from motor-sports shooters, who wanted to shoot at large apertures and slow shutter speeds, so they could pan to follow the race cars while dramatically motion-blurring the background.

I don’t know enough about sensor design to understand the details of what’s involved, but when I asked Sanbongi-san what his team’s proudest achievements were, he mentioned the D850’s true ISO 64 first."

This was a quote from a article you car read here. https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Whilst undoubtably a very fine achievement with 120 raw shots at 24mp, there are drawbacks and being first allows other manufacturers to draw on that design specification and make improvements for their own products. Personally I will stick with a D850 and the 64 iso to get blurred shots at 9fps.
 
The problem here is most people think every sport requires high shutter speeds and high iso at all times. the biggest drawback of this global shutter is the low base iso setting of 250iso many motor sport shooters will use a very low iso setting and very slow shutter speeds to get wheels and backgrounds blurred, Nikon did this for motorsport photographers.

"While a minimum ISO of 200 isn’t an issue if you’re shooting at smaller apertures or in lower light, it’s a real issue if you’re trying to shoot at wide apertures in bright light, or to use slower shutter speeds to achieve motion blur. Of course, you can always use an ND filter in such situations, but they’re a nuisance, especially if you’re using multiple lenses, and want to switch back and forth between tack-sharp and creatively blurred shots.

This is one area where Nikon’s dedicated sensor design has paid off for them: The D850 has the first true ISO 64 capability in an SLR. (Other cameras have special “Lo” ISO settings that will get there, but those come at the expense of poor tonal qualities and blown highlights.) Sanbongi-san told me that they developed the D850’s true ISO 64 capability in response to requests from motor-sports shooters, who wanted to shoot at large apertures and slow shutter speeds, so they could pan to follow the race cars while dramatically motion-blurring the background.

I don’t know enough about sensor design to understand the details of what’s involved, but when I asked Sanbongi-san what his team’s proudest achievements were, he mentioned the D850’s true ISO 64 first."

This was a quote from a article you car read here. https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Whilst undoubtably a very fine achievement with 120 raw shots at 24mp, there are drawbacks and being first allows other manufacturers to draw on that design specification and make improvements for their own products. Personally I will stick with a D850 and the 64 iso to get blurred shots at 9fps.
Are you telling me that the D810 didn’t have a true base ISO 64? That’s news to me.
 
There were some rumors about 45 MP Z6 III in the past but that could be just another interpretation of a camera that eventually become Z8.
It would make far more sense for the Z6 III to get in the 28-36mp range. Remember, the 36mp D800 was a seminal camera, partly because of the resolution bump up (people felt it was a bit of future-proofing).

Such a camera in the US$2500-3000 price point would basically eradicate the need for a direct Z7 II replacement. Nikon would then be free to put a truly high resolution camera—e.g. 80mp— wherever they felt was the best place in the lineup (e.g. Z7 III, Z8x, or something else).
28-36 MP would make sense if they decide to develop a new sensor. And if I remember correctly, you mentioned in some of your articles that Nikon probably wants to limit number of sensor they have to develop.

That's why I mentioned possibility of reusing sensor from Z8/9. And 45 MP sensor would be even better replacement for Z7 II. Z7 III (or some other name) could then become the very high MP camera that you mention. In this way, Nikon would need to develop just one sensor instead of two.
Putting the stacked 45mp image sensor in a Z6/Z7 body would be awkward in terms of clarity of model lineup. Moreover, it would tend to increase cost for those models. From a marketing sense, a Z7 III at stacked 45mp with EXPEED7 just basically becomes "a cheaper Z8 that's smaller and has fewer buttons." Unless they also remove features, which would generate instant negative online feedback.

With full frame, Nikon currently has six models (Zf, Z5, Z6, Z7, Z8, Z9). The issue is spreading those models into a full and sensible product line. Sony has had the same problem, and they've solved that problem with different sensors (e.g. A7S and A7R), and different body styles (e.g. A7 and A7C). I think Nikon (and eventually Canon) will be juggling that same problem the same way (sensor and body differentiation).
 
The problem here is most people think every sport requires high shutter speeds and high iso at all times. the biggest drawback of this global shutter is the low base iso setting of 250iso many motor sport shooters will use a very low iso setting and very slow shutter speeds to get wheels and backgrounds blurred, Nikon did this for motorsport photographers.

"While a minimum ISO of 200 isn’t an issue if you’re shooting at smaller apertures or in lower light, it’s a real issue if you’re trying to shoot at wide apertures in bright light, or to use slower shutter speeds to achieve motion blur. Of course, you can always use an ND filter in such situations, but they’re a nuisance, especially if you’re using multiple lenses, and want to switch back and forth between tack-sharp and creatively blurred shots.

This is one area where Nikon’s dedicated sensor design has paid off for them: The D850 has the first true ISO 64 capability in an SLR. (Other cameras have special “Lo” ISO settings that will get there, but those come at the expense of poor tonal qualities and blown highlights.) Sanbongi-san told me that they developed the D850’s true ISO 64 capability in response to requests from motor-sports shooters, who wanted to shoot at large apertures and slow shutter speeds, so they could pan to follow the race cars while dramatically motion-blurring the background.

I don’t know enough about sensor design to understand the details of what’s involved, but when I asked Sanbongi-san what his team’s proudest achievements were, he mentioned the D850’s true ISO 64 first."

This was a quote from a article you car read here. https://www.imaging-resource.com/ne...-inside-nikons-super-secret-sensor-design-lab

Whilst undoubtably a very fine achievement with 120 raw shots at 24mp, there are drawbacks and being first allows other manufacturers to draw on that design specification and make improvements for their own products. Personally I will stick with a D850 and the 64 iso to get blurred shots at 9fps.
Are you telling me that the D810 didn’t have a true base ISO 64? That’s news to me.
I have no idea, but that is a quote from a Nikon sensor designer.
 
There were some rumors about 45 MP Z6 III in the past but that could be just another interpretation of a camera that eventually become Z8.
It would make far more sense for the Z6 III to get in the 28-36mp range. Remember, the 36mp D800 was a seminal camera, partly because of the resolution bump up (people felt it was a bit of future-proofing).

Such a camera in the US$2500-3000 price point would basically eradicate the need for a direct Z7 II replacement. Nikon would then be free to put a truly high resolution camera—e.g. 80mp— wherever they felt was the best place in the lineup (e.g. Z7 III, Z8x, or something else).
28-36 MP would make sense if they decide to develop a new sensor. And if I remember correctly, you mentioned in some of your articles that Nikon probably wants to limit number of sensor they have to develop.

That's why I mentioned possibility of reusing sensor from Z8/9. And 45 MP sensor would be even better replacement for Z7 II. Z7 III (or some other name) could then become the very high MP camera that you mention. In this way, Nikon would need to develop just one sensor instead of two.
Putting the stacked 45mp image sensor in a Z6/Z7 body would be awkward in terms of clarity of model lineup. Moreover, it would tend to increase cost for those models. From a marketing sense, a Z7 III at stacked 45mp with EXPEED7 just basically becomes "a cheaper Z8 that's smaller and has fewer buttons." Unless they also remove features, which would generate instant negative online feedback.
Definitely, they would need to make difficult decisions how to distinguish Z8 from such Z6 III and do not anger Z6 III buyers too much. I wanted to get a feedback what others think about such possibility. I understand your responses in a way that you think it's quite unlikely that it will happen. Am I right?
With full frame, Nikon currently has six models (Zf, Z5, Z6, Z7, Z8, Z9). The issue is spreading those models into a full and sensible product line. Sony has had the same problem, and they've solved that problem with different sensors (e.g. A7S and A7R), and different body styles (e.g. A7 and A7C). I think Nikon (and eventually Canon) will be juggling that same problem the same way (sensor and body differentiation).
 

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