Should Nikon produce an astrophotography camera for use with Z lenses?

Astrophotography cameras have a different filter arrangement on the sensor to normal cameras, which lets them record further into the red region (up to 700nm).

If you want to use Nikon Z lenses with an astrophotography camera the only way, currently, is to have a standard Nikon Z camera modified to change a filter on the sensor – which typically costs around £250 from third party companies. This isn’t ideal.

An astrophotography camera doesn’t have to be full frame: APS-C is much more common in dedicated astro cameras than is full frame. Neither does it have to have features such as IBIS or even a viewfinder, but some features are desirable to give it basic competence for astro work. These features include:

• Capability for controlled exposures longer than 30s (already available on the Z fc)
• USB-C PD charging (already available on the Z30)
• Compatibility with some astro control software (already available on the Z 50)

It seems to me that Nikon should be able to make a competent APS-C camera for astrophotography that looks like the Z30 – let’s call it a Z30A - for close to the same cost as the Z30.

Nikon’s last astrophotography camera, the D810A, was launched in 2015 at a US price of $3799. According to Roland’s “Photosynthesis” website it sold only a few thousand units. I’m sure an astrophotography camera priced at about the same as the Z30 would sell far more than this.

Comments?

Andy

I think most people that are "truly" into astrophotography are using a telescope with a dedicated astro camera, which are 1/4 that price, or less and do everything that you could want in that kind of camera. So why shell out that kind of money for a limited feature/useability set?

The point of my post was that you can’t use standard dedicated Astro cameras with Z lenses.

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Andy

Andy Lucy said:

Astrophotography cameras have a different filter arrangement on the sensor to normal cameras, which lets them record further into the red region (up to 700nm).

If you want to use Nikon Z lenses with an astrophotography camera the only way, currently, is to have a standard Nikon Z camera modified to change a filter on the sensor – which typically costs around £250 from third party companies. This isn’t ideal.

An astrophotography camera doesn’t have to be full frame: APS-C is much more common in dedicated astro cameras than is full frame. Neither does it have to have features such as IBIS or even a viewfinder, but some features are desirable to give it basic competence for astro work. These features include:

• Capability for controlled exposures longer than 30s (already available on the Z fc)
• USB-C PD charging (already available on the Z30)
• Compatibility with some astro control software (already available on the Z 50)

It seems to me that Nikon should be able to make a competent APS-C camera for astrophotography that looks like the Z30 – let’s call it a Z30A - for close to the same cost as the Z30.

Nikon’s last astrophotography camera, the D810A, was launched in 2015 at a US price of $3799. According to Roland’s “Photosynthesis” website it sold only a few thousand units. I’m sure an astrophotography camera priced at about the same as the Z30 would sell far more than this.

Comments?

Andy

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700nm should be in the reach of most standard digital cameras.

What Z lenses are you thinking about? Astrophotography is perhaps the most demanding of markets in terms of need for highly-corrected, fast lenses.

NO MORE cameras without an EVF! LOL I could go without an LCD. When I need one, I generally prefer a larger external one anyway, or I can use my phone with Snapbridge.

I could see having a top LCD display (on the LEFT!) for astrophotography.

I wonder if the sensor setup could also be infrared "friendly" tune as well.

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700nm is within the reach of all sensors in standard digital cameras, except that they all have a filter over the sensor that deliberately attenuates the response in the red region. Replacement of this filter with a filter that cuts off at 700nm is what makes a camera an astrophotography camera.

Z prime lenses that could be good for astrophotography include the 400mm f/4.5 and the new Plena 135mm f/1.8. The 180-600 zoom has been tested and looks pretty good (for a zoom).

skyrunr said:

NO MORE cameras without an EVF! LOL I could go without an LCD.

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Because the sky is in the “up” direction a tilting monitor is used more often than the viewfinder, no complications of tethering are required.

skyrunr said:

When I need one, I generally prefer a larger external one anyway, or I can use my phone with Snapbridge.

I could see having a top LCD display (on the LEFT!) for astrophotography.

I wonder if the sensor setup could also be infrared "friendly" tune as well.

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We’ll need to state somewhere in this thread that interest in strong sensitivity to the H-alpha wavelength is a niche within a niche. So I push back against the opening assertion by Andy that it is an absolute requirement; rather, it is a defensibly desirable feature. There should be an even broader appeal for aids to framing like Starlight View and whatever Sony calls their equivalent feature.

Back to you: there are two pathways to achieve good sensitivity there:

1. have the more modest H-alpha expansion done (the choice I made)
2. get an IR or full spectrum conversion then use a filter to exclude IR and If necessary UV (what a local friend had done)

I would like to see a broader offering of clip in filters for Z bodies. There are some but not as many as for Canons and Sonys.

Andy Lucy said:

700nm is within the reach of all sensors in standard digital cameras, except that they all have a filter over the sensor that deliberately attenuates the response in the red region. Replacement of this filter with a filter that cuts off at 700nm is what makes a camera an astrophotography camera.

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I personally reserve that title to cameras that have regulated cooling.

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Wag more; bark less.

Both Nikon (D810A) and Canon (Ra) designated their cameras to be astrophotography cameras: neither had regulated cooling.

It seems a little odd for you to insist that an astrophotography camera must have regulated cooling but need not have strong sensitivity to H-alpha radiation. Can you provide an example of a designated astrophotography camera that has cooling but doesn’t have high H-alpha sensitivity?

I enjoy astrophotography, but it is a pretty small market and I would be pretty surprised to see Nikon offer a Z body aimed specifically at this segment of photographers.

Would I buy one if it were offered? Only if it was very affordable. I would be more likely to have one of my older cameras converted instead.

I think the market is bigger than you might think. The stargazerslounge forum has 73 000 members (mostly from the UK) who appear to be split about fifty-fifty between visual astronomy and astrophotography.

Converting a non-Z camera for astrophotography will not let you use Z lenses on it.

The title of my original post makes it clear that I am suggesting an astrophotography camera for use with Z lenses.

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Andy

Andy Lucy said:

The point of my post was that you can’t use standard dedicated Astro cameras with Z lenses.

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You didn’t mention that in your post …

PanameraTurbo said:

I think most people that are "truly" into astrophotography are using a telescope with a dedicated astro camera, which are 1/4 that price

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A caveat: those inexpensive astro cameras are lower resolution than any APS-C Nikon (I.e.: a modified Z50] and their sensors are much smaller. It’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.

ChallengerLastCall said:

, or less and do everything that you could want in that kind of camera. So why shell out that kind of money for a limited feature/useability set?

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I agree with this.

Andy Lucy said:

Both Nikon (D810A) and Canon (Ra) designated their cameras to be astrophotography cameras: neither had regulated cooling.

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Those are half measures, like my modded Z7 with no pretension of Holy Grail status. I think those product ideas are odd corner cases of which I’ve never been remotely tempted even though I practice A-P.

Putting a racing spec cam into a Prius engine can make it faster but doesn’t get it into the starting grid at Le Mans. If one truly wants to up their game in astro why buy a slightly modified general purpose camera as new goods prices, while leaving some really important features on the table? In for a penny in for a pound.

In the case of my Z7, I not only already had it, it had also been superseded when I got my Z8, and there was no lower cost of entry to H-a than to modify it. That was a half measure expenditure to obtain a half measure feature; seemed fair to me. That was worth a few hundred dollars to me, but certainly not thousands. It’s not what I would call a true astro camera in the full sense.

Andy Lucy said:

It seems a little odd for you to insist that an astrophotography camera must have regulated cooling but need not have strong sensitivity to H-alpha radiation.

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Not all subjects and goals are the same. Not every genre of astrophotography relies on a strong response at H-alpha. There’s more up there than red nebulae. It’s fine if that’s all that you are interested in but there is room for other goals.

Andy Lucy said:

Can you provide an example of a designated astrophotography camera that has cooling but doesn’t have high H-alpha sensitivity?

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No, and I never asserted that there should be. Sorry, I had assumed that was understood. It would have been better if I had used the phrase “necessary but not sufficient” in my initial wording.

It needs to be commercially viable for Nikon, and it's hard to know whether it is without knowing the size of the market for this. But even if not directly cost-effective, it could help to bring more people to Nikon, sell more lenses and get more exposure on YouTube (astro being a popular subject there).

So whilst not something I would buy, I'd love to see something like this, however, I'd be livid if they did so without first doing a general refresh of the DX line for those of us getting p****d off waiting for something new

As you point out, the cameras can be converted by fitting an all-spectrum filter then fitting either clip-in filter to the camera or screw filters to the lenses but the response of Z glass at 720nm as an example can be very variable. This is certainly true for IR photography & may also effect astro.

Andy Lucy said:

I think the market is bigger than you might think. The stargazerslounge forum has 73 000 members (mostly from the UK) who appear to be split about fifty-fifty between visual astronomy and astrophotography.

Converting a non-Z camera for astrophotography will not let you use Z lenses on it.

The title of my original post makes it clear that I am suggesting an astrophotography camera for use with Z lenses.

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why not buy a telescope and dedicated astro sensor?

Andy Lucy said:

I think the market is bigger than you might think. The stargazerslounge forum has 73 000 members (mostly from the UK) who appear to be split about fifty-fifty between visual astronomy and astrophotography.

Converting a non-Z camera for astrophotography will not let you use Z lenses on it.

The title of my original post makes it clear that I am suggesting an astrophotography camera for use with Z lenses.

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Yes, I know that. If I were to do an astro conversion it would be on my original Z6, but to be honest, the first lens I would want to go with it would be the Sigma 14mm 1.4 Art with an ETZ adapter.

If I wanted magnifcation, I would use it on my 8 inch SC telescope.

areallygrumpyoldsod said:

why not buy a telescope and dedicated astro sensor?

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If you want to use a telescope with a dedicated Astro camera, then you should indeed - like I have - buy a telescope and a dedicated Astro camera.

However, I also have Nikon Z lenses, which I use for astrophotography with my Nikon Z camera - but I miss the elevated H-alpha response of the dedicated astro camera. I’d like to use these lenses with an H-alpha camera and the only way to do this is by modifying an existing Z camera (as just Tony has described above for his Z7).

My contention is that it would be good to have an alternative to modifying a Z camera: i.e. that Nikon should offer their own Astro camera.

Some might rather pay £600 for a Z30A than spend £600 on a Z30 and then spend an extra £250 for a third party to modify it (at the same time invalidating the warranty). Further, I’d bet that a Z30A would - given even a little attention to detail by Nikon - be better suited for astro than a modified Z30.

Andy Lucy said:

areallygrumpyoldsod said:

why not buy a telescope and dedicated astro sensor?

Click to expand...

If you want to use a telescope with a dedicated Astro camera, then you should indeed - like I have - buy a telescope and a dedicated Astro camera.

However, I also have Nikon Z lenses, which I use for astrophotography with my Nikon Z camera - but I miss the elevated H-alpha response of the dedicated astro camera. I’d like to use these lenses with an H-alpha camera and the only way to do this is by modifying an existing Z camera (as just Tony has described above for his Z7).

My contention is that it would be good to have an alternative to modifying a Z camera: i.e. that Nikon should offer their own Astro camera.

Some might rather pay £600 for a Z30A than spend £600 on a Z30 and then spend an extra £250 for a third party to modify it (at the same time invalidating the warranty). Further, I’d bet that a Z30A would - given even a little attention to detail by Nikon - be better suited for astro than a modified Z30.

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The Canon Ra sold at a $700 premium, and was discontinued less than two years after launch. Will Nikon see this as an attractive opportunity?