No weather sealing rationale in 2023?

Flying Fijian said:

Yes agreed...Fujis still persisting with this while increasing the price.

Also, Fujis PASM implementation was half baked too...not a if they've improved with the X-S20.

If they can't do it right, might as well just stick with the retro dials (and next level sooc jpg recipe setting implementation) which is why people choose Fuji anyway.

Click to expand...

Yep, Fuji's implementation of PSAM really feels like Nikon's implementation of retro dials on the Zfc, where there was a combination of retro dials and PSAM modes through a mode switch.

Stayed so long in one system that when you try to do the switch you end up having a lot of the base you're building on that is taylored for that system and it ends up feeling half baked (even if it's still functionnal).

Honestly, I'm currently using a Fujifilm X-H1, and I don't think there is a better system for exposure right now for consumer cameras.

You have retro dials for when you need them, but you can also turn into a DSLR control style approach with front and back dials that can control every end of the exposure triangle if you want to, and making the switch from one to another is done under a second. I would have much prefered that instead of the PSAM implementation on the X-H2 / H2S. I understand the will to gain more market share and make a system people can switch to without re-learning everything, but at the same time that was one of the things that made Fujifilm special (that and the full commit to the APS-C sensor format)

MJ_Photo38 said:

Alan Hewitt Photo said:

It's a great camera, but it's also an entry level model. Upgrade to the X-H2/S for siilar PSAM UI and you also have weather sealing.

Click to expand...

I am kind at of a loss for words. Since when an entry level model commands prices around 1300 USD? That's definitely mid-range to me. You can't really talk about entry level unless you get under 1 grand in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Bit sad when Alan is a Fuji ambassador and the X-S20 doesn't even register on his radar.

MJ_Photo38 said:

Furthermore, other brands are offering weather sealed cameras at a similar pricepoint : Canon R7, Sony A6700, OM System OM-5... Even the older, cheaper (and properly "entry level" this time!) Nikon Z50 is weather sealed !

Click to expand...

MJ_Photo38 said:

in 2023, you shouldn't HAVE to jump to a 2k+ USD camera to have weather sealing, that is just non-sense. Especially for a camera like the X-S20 which is of that nice size and weight for travel !

Click to expand...

Precisely

MJ_Photo38 said:

Weather sealing offers a peace of mind when abroad : you know that even if you get surprised by the rain or snow, your camera isn't at risk.

Click to expand...

MJ_Photo38 said:

I mostly buy used cameras for that exact reason : would an X-T20 have been sufficient for my needs? Yes ! Did I spend the extra money to get an X-T2 for the weather sealing? Yes also!

Click to expand...

, so by that rationale, Fuji is losing sales?

John Gellings said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

Alan Hewitt Photo said:

It's a great camera, but it's also an entry level model. Upgrade to the X-H2/S for siilar PSAM UI and you also have weather sealing.

Click to expand...

I am kind at of a loss for words. Since when an entry level model commands prices around 1300 USD? That's definitely mid-range to me. You can't really talk about entry level unless you get under 1 grand in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Times are changing.

John Gellings said:

Furthermore, other brands are offering weather sealed cameras at a similar pricepoint : Canon R7, Sony A6700, OM System OM-5... Even the older, cheaper (and properly "entry level" this time!) Nikon Z50 is weather sealed !

Click to expand...

Well, people are free to buy those. I’d still choose a non weather sealed Fuji.

John Gellings said:

in 2023, you shouldn't HAVE to jump to a 2k+ USD camera to have weather sealing, that is just non-sense.

Click to expand...

No, it’s reality with Fuji… but you can buy used Fuji with WR for less.

John Gellings said:

Especially for a camera like the X-S20 which is of that nice size and weight for travel !

Click to expand...

Do you guys travel in bad weather mostly?

John Gellings said:

Weather sealing offers a peace of mind when abroad : you know that even if you get surprised by the rain or snow, your camera isn't at risk.

Click to expand...

A bag will do the same…

John Gellings said:

I mostly buy used cameras for that exact reason : would an X-T20 have been sufficient for my needs? Yes ! Did I spend the extra money to get an X-T2 for the weather sealing? Yes also!

Click to expand...

There you go. If you are serious enough to photograph in bad weather, you buy the appropriate gear. You don’t buy first and then complain.

Click to expand...

I knew what I was getting into, I actually am not complaining, I think the X-S20 is probably Fuji's best camera at the moment, the rationale to leave out Weather protection of some level on a camera of such quality is puzzling. It's not low end, mid-tier or anything, its just a unique offering by Fuji that isn't readily categorized. I have done my research and the lack of Weather resistance actually isn't a deal breaker for me, I'm just curious as to why they would leave it out.

And-roid said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

I mostly buy used cameras for that exact reason : would an X-T20 have been sufficient for my needs? Yes ! Did I spend the extra money to get an X-T2 for the weather sealing? Yes also!

Click to expand...

, so by that rationale, Fuji is losing sales?

Click to expand...

That anecdote doesn’t involve buying anything from Fuji whichever camera was chosen.

But the rationale implies that when presented with two options, the mere presence of the cheaper option can influence people to spend more on a more expensive, and generally higher-margin, option. It’s called comparison bias and is a well researched cognitive bias that has been used for decades in various industries to push consumers to more profitable options. This is what some of the posters are alluding to when they talk about segmentation.

Flying Fijian said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

Yeah, and being coherent withing it own product stack is one thing, being coherent with the market is even better.

I could let the X-S10 get away without weather sealing at its MSRP of $999. It made sense in the market it was in.

At $1299 however, the X-S20 has a much more serious competition, and ALL of its competitors are equipped with weather sealing, making it a pretty big knock against the S20 in my opinion. Especially when cameras like the Sony A6700 have it, have pretty similar specs otherwise, as well as some advantages (more robust Sony AF etc) and is just about $100 apart from the X-S20.

That's not product segmentation, that's an oversight.

Click to expand...

Yes agreed...Fujis still persisting with this while increasing the price.

Click to expand...

The price increase is justifed

UHS-II

Decent Buffer

Better IBIS

Better LCD

New level AF that out of this world better than the A7IV and the A6700 even with its object tracking

Same af speed as the A9 in a tiny package

6.2k open gate

5.2k/50/60p over HDMI

List goes on, its a much better camera in use than the A7IV, despite the lower res evf and actually better in every way, including af than the a6700.

Flying Fijian said:

Also, Fujis PASM implementation was half baked too...not a if they've improved with the X-S20.

Click to expand...

Excuse, what's half-baked about it?

Flying Fijian said:

If they can't do it right, might as well just stick with the retro dials (and next level sooc jpg recipe setting implementation) which is why people choose Fuji anyway.

Click to expand...

I'm confused, what didn't they do right, I have a Sony A7IV, A6700, X-S20 what's different with the PSAM?

MJ_Photo38 said:

Flying Fijian said:

Yes agreed...Fujis still persisting with this while increasing the price.

Also, Fujis PASM implementation was half baked too...not a if they've improved with the X-S20.

If they can't do it right, might as well just stick with the retro dials (and next level sooc jpg recipe setting implementation) which is why people choose Fuji anyway.

Click to expand...

Yep, Fuji's implementation of PSAM really feels like Nikon's implementation of retro dials on the Zfc, where there was a combination of retro dials and PSAM modes through a mode switch.

Click to expand...

Nonsense, its identical to Sony, what's different, its nothing like a Zfc, zero similarlity.

MJ_Photo38 said:

Stayed so long in one system that when you try to do the switch you end up having a lot of the base you're building on that is taylored for that system and it ends up feeling half baked (even if it's still functionnal).

Honestly, I'm currently using a Fujifilm X-H1, and I don't think there is a better system for exposure right now for consumer cameras.

Click to expand...

Honestly, what's different from X-H1 and the X-S20, except the X-S20 will actually blitz the X-H1 in the af department and the battery/buffer/fps is from another world.

MJ_Photo38 said:

You have retro dials for when you need them, but you can also turn into a DSLR control style approach with front and back dials that can control every end of the exposure triangle if you want to, and making the switch from one to another is done under a second. I would have much prefered that instead of the PSAM implementation on the X-H2 / H2S. I understand the will to gain more market share and make a system people can switch to without re-learning everything, but at the same time that was one of the things that made Fujifilm special (that and the full commit to the APS-C sensor format)

Click to expand...

The X-S20 also has a top dial for iso if that's what you want, I never went a whole lot on the X-H1, af was far too inconsistent and the buffer always felt tin.

John Gellings said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

I am kind at of a loss for words. Since when an entry level model commands prices around 1300 USD? That's definitely mid-range to me. You can't really talk about entry level unless you get under 1 grand in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Times are changing.

Click to expand...

That is NOT an argument. As far as I know, prices increase faster than wages. 1300 USD is a mid range camera, there is no way around that fact. People were even calling teh X-S10 more of a "mid range" camera when it launched (including the good folks at DPReview). Except if you call an A6700 or Canon R7 "entry level" as well, which I'm pretty sure you don't. Fujifilm is marketing their camera for regular consumers, not people looking for a luxury item where we can dismiss the cost when looking at its lack of features. No, those are cameras that are meant to be compared with other cameras in the same price bracket. Otherwise, we call that fanboyism.

John Gellings said:

John Gellings said:

Furthermore, other brands are offering weather sealed cameras at a similar pricepoint : Canon R7, Sony A6700, OM System OM-5... Even the older, cheaper (and properly "entry level" this time!) Nikon Z50 is weather sealed !

Click to expand...

Well, people are free to buy those. I’d still choose a non weather sealed Fuji.

John Gellings said:

in 2023, you shouldn't HAVE to jump to a 2k+ USD camera to have weather sealing, that is just non-sense.

Click to expand...

No, it’s reality with Fuji… but you can buy used Fuji with WR for less.

Click to expand...

Yeah well it doesn't have to be. And it shouldn't be. Also, I should point out that no other Fujifilm camera can give the same feature set and performance as the X-S20 does in the Fujifilm lineup right now (AF, sensor, IBIS and high end video). The only other option is the X-H2S which is much bigger and costs 1.2k more !

John Gellings said:

John Gellings said:

Especially for a camera like the X-S20 which is of that nice size and weight for travel !

Click to expand...

Do you guys travel in bad weather mostly?

Click to expand...

Mostly? No. But I can count on the fingers of one hand the times when I was travelling and I didn't catch rain during the trip I don't really want rain to limit my ability to take photos, especially when rain generally makes things interesing, do you? Or you know, maybe we could live in regions where rain is more frequent, like south-east Asia?

John Gellings said:

John Gellings said:

Weather sealing offers a peace of mind when abroad : you know that even if you get surprised by the rain or snow, your camera isn't at risk.

Click to expand...

A bag will do the same…

Click to expand...

Oh great! Do you have a camera backpack that allows me to shoot with my camera while it's in it? I'd love to have the name of it !

John Gellings said:

John Gellings said:

I mostly buy used cameras for that exact reason : would an X-T20 have been sufficient for my needs? Yes ! Did I spend the extra money to get an X-T2 for the weather sealing? Yes also!

Click to expand...

There you go. If you are serious enough to photograph in bad weather, you buy the appropriate gear. You don’t buy first and then complain.

Click to expand...

My point is that that X-T2 I bought barely more expensive than the X-T20 I was looking at. A 1300 USD camera should have weather sealing, end of story. I am not looking at defending OP here. He didn't do his research, well that's too bad and that ain't something we can fix.

However, there is not point arguing that the lack of weather sealing for a camera like the X-S20 is an oversight.

Jeff Biscuits said:

And-roid said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

I mostly buy used cameras for that exact reason : would an X-T20 have been sufficient for my needs? Yes ! Did I spend the extra money to get an X-T2 for the weather sealing? Yes also!

Click to expand...

, so by that rationale, Fuji is losing sales?

Click to expand...

That anecdote doesn’t involve buying anything from Fuji whichever camera was chosen.

But the rationale implies that when presented with two options, the mere presence of the cheaper option can influence people to spend more on a more expensive, and generally higher-margin, option. It’s called comparison bias and is a well researched cognitive bias that has been used for decades in various industries to push consumers to more profitable options. This is what some of the posters are alluding to when they talk about segmentation.

Click to expand...

So, their rationale was to see what they could get away with price wise and if they omitted WR what impact it would have, ie they could discount the it if needed back to sub 1k if it has a negative effect on sales?

MJ_Photo38 said:

Yeah, and being coherent withing it own product stack is one thing, being coherent with the market is even better.

I could let the X-S10 get away without weather sealing at its MSRP of $999. It made sense in the market it was in.

At $1299 however, the X-S20 has a much more serious competition, and ALL of its competitors are equipped with weather sealing, making it a pretty big knock against the S20 in my opinion. Especially when cameras like the Sony A6700 have it, have pretty similar specs otherwise, as well as some advantages (more robust Sony AF etc) and is just about $100 apart from the X-S20.

That's not product segmentation, that's an oversight.

Click to expand...

I don't think Fuji is paying much attention to the full spec sheets of other brands' cameras; it's plain that they are indeed using WR and its absence as product segmentation, as they always have. Based on its specs, the X-S20 would compete too closely with the X-H2/2S/T5 if it had WR. Since Fuji (finally) decided to commit to and continue to develop the X-H line, they will want to protect that investment. It's not a surprise that other lines would be consolidated and/or "dumbed down" to accommodate the shiny new thing.

We also don't know at this point if we'll ever see any more X-E or X-Txx bodies; they're very hard to find as it is. Maybe they're on "hiatus" for now until supply chain issues improve. Until then the X-S line should be considered as mid-tier, and thus without all the bells and whistles of the top-tier cams. Maybe there will be new information at the Summit on Sept 12, where we might get a clearer picture of how Fuji will move forward.

And-roid said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

Alan Hewitt Photo said:

It's a great camera, but it's also an entry level model. Upgrade to the X-H2/S for siilar PSAM UI and you also have weather sealing.

Click to expand...

I am kind at of a loss for words. Since when an entry level model commands prices around 1300 USD? That's definitely mid-range to me. You can't really talk about entry level unless you get under 1 grand in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Bit sad when Alan is a Fuji ambassador and the X-S20 doesn't even register on his radar.

Click to expand...

Huh? It's not a matter of "registering on his radar." He simply stated the feature differences between the models. As with many (actually most) camera manufacturers, various features generally become available when you reach certain price points. You may agree or disagree with the price/feature ratio, but his stating the feature differences has little or nothing to do with his own usage of the product. Alan spends a fair amount of time leading safari trips in South Africa, if my recollection is right, and IMHO, that camera might not be a pro's first choice for a kit to take there (obviously YMMV). That doesn't mean that he isn't aware of it nor that he doesn't understand the feature differences.

And-roid said:

So, their rationale was to see what they could get away with price wise and if they omitted WR what impact it would have, ie they could discount the it if needed back to sub 1k if it has a negative effect on sales?

Click to expand...

I think you’re rather stretching what I said

But at the end of the day no-one with any sense will release a £1250 body that’s good enough to cannibalise sales of a £1900 body. Some things have to give, and in this case it just happens that WR is one of those things.

Lettermanian said:

I don't think Fuji is paying much attention to the full spec sheets of other brands' cameras; it's plain that they are indeed using WR and its absence as product segmentation, as they always have. Based on its specs, the X-S20 would compete too closely with the X-H2/2S/T5 if it had WR. Since Fuji (finally) decided to commit to and continue to develop the X-H line, they will want to protect that investment. It's not a surprise that other lines would be consolidated and/or "dumbed down" to accommodate the shiny new thing.

We also don't know at this point if we'll ever see any more X-E or X-Txx bodies; they're very hard to find as it is. Maybe they're on "hiatus" for now until supply chain issues improve. Until then the X-S line should be considered as mid-tier, and thus without all the bells and whistles of the top-tier cams. Maybe there will be new information at the Summit on Sept 12, where we might get a clearer picture of how Fuji will move forward.

Click to expand...

My issue with this is that other consumer brands' mid range cameras pretty much all have weather sealing. Fujifilm is pretty much the only outlier here where the mid-range doesn't have some sealing. I can see the logic if we only look at Fuji's cameras. Unfortunately for them, that's not how it works.

Even Canon, which for a long time didn't really care that much about those kind of features, in incorporating that in their RP/R8/R7 which are all within spitting distance price-wise from the X-S20.

I am now not even hopeful to see features like IBIS in the next X-E camera.

As far as I know of the few "leaks" for the next Fuji summit event, it would mostly focus on their GFX line. Maybe an X mount body will be announced, but it's next week and so far no information made it through, while there is leaked images and specs of a rumoured GFX 100II (or since it didn't have an integrated vertical grip, maybe GFX 100SII)

Jeff Biscuits said:

But at the end of the day no-one with any sense will release a £1250 body that’s good enough to cannibalise sales of a £1900 body. Some things have to give, and in this case it just happens that WR is one of those things.

Click to expand...

Hah, the X-H1 / X-T3 fiasco probably taught them some things

MJ_Photo38 said:

Lettermanian said:

I don't think Fuji is paying much attention to the full spec sheets of other brands' cameras; it's plain that they are indeed using WR and its absence as product segmentation, as they always have. Based on its specs, the X-S20 would compete too closely with the X-H2/2S/T5 if it had WR. Since Fuji (finally) decided to commit to and continue to develop the X-H line, they will want to protect that investment. It's not a surprise that other lines would be consolidated and/or "dumbed down" to accommodate the shiny new thing.

We also don't know at this point if we'll ever see any more X-E or X-Txx bodies; they're very hard to find as it is. Maybe they're on "hiatus" for now until supply chain issues improve. Until then the X-S line should be considered as mid-tier, and thus without all the bells and whistles of the top-tier cams. Maybe there will be new information at the Summit on Sept 12, where we might get a clearer picture of how Fuji will move forward.

Click to expand...

My issue with this is that other consumer brands' mid range cameras pretty much all have weather sealing. Fujifilm is pretty much the only outlier here where the mid-range doesn't have some sealing. I can see the logic if we only look at Fuji's cameras. Unfortunately for them, that's not how it works.

Click to expand...

Believe me, I'd also love it if the mid-tier cameras did have weather sealing, but in general that would mean there would be other compromises made in order to protect the top-tier. A WR X-T40 or X-E5 would be awesome, but the specs would have to be lower than the X-S20 to keep price points reasonable. I just don't think we will see a mid-tier in Fuji's lineup with WR, regardless of what the other brands have.

In some respects, I'd argue that the X-H2 is the odd camera here; its existence is a bit perplexing, especially since the X-S20 with its feature set would have been in development at the same time. Arguably, the X-H2S and the X-T5 make sense. What would have made better sense would have been a "top-tier" X-S20 with WR, 3.6M-dot EVF and dual slots. That would leave enough differentiation between the performance camera, the high-res camera, and the top video-centric camera, and would allow a clearer direction for mid-tier cameras.

I am now not even hopeful to see features like IBIS in the next X-E camera.

Probably not, but if the X-E5 was basically an X-E4 with WR added, and no other improvements, would you still want it? That's the kind of camera we'd probably be looking at if Fuji stopped using WR as a differentiating spec.

And-roid said:

John Gellings said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

Alan Hewitt Photo said:

It's a great camera, but it's also an entry level model. Upgrade to the X-H2/S for siilar PSAM UI and you also have weather sealing.

Click to expand...

I am kind at of a loss for words. Since when an entry level model commands prices around 1300 USD? That's definitely mid-range to me. You can't really talk about entry level unless you get under 1 grand in my opinion.

Click to expand...

Times are changing.

alphaZ said:

Furthermore, other brands are offering weather sealed cameras at a similar pricepoint : Canon R7, Sony A6700, OM System OM-5... Even the older, cheaper (and properly "entry level" this time!) Nikon Z50 is weather sealed !

Click to expand...

Well, people are free to buy those. I’d still choose a non weather sealed Fuji.

alphaZ said:

in 2023, you shouldn't HAVE to jump to a 2k+ USD camera to have weather sealing, that is just non-sense.

Click to expand...

No, it’s reality with Fuji… but you can buy used Fuji with WR for less.

alphaZ said:

Especially for a camera like the X-S20 which is of that nice size and weight for travel !

Click to expand...

Do you guys travel in bad weather mostly?

alphaZ said:

Weather sealing offers a peace of mind when abroad : you know that even if you get surprised by the rain or snow, your camera isn't at risk.

Click to expand...

A bag will do the same…

alphaZ said:

I mostly buy used cameras for that exact reason : would an X-T20 have been sufficient for my needs? Yes ! Did I spend the extra money to get an X-T2 for the weather sealing? Yes also!

Click to expand...

There you go. If you are serious enough to photograph in bad weather, you buy the appropriate gear. You don’t buy first and then complain.

Click to expand...

I knew what I was getting into, I actually am not complaining, I think the X-S20 is probably Fuji's best camera at the moment, the rationale to leave out Weather protection of some level on a camera of such quality is puzzling. It's not low end, mid-tier or anything, its just a unique offering by Fuji that isn't readily categorized. I have done my research and the lack of Weather resistance actually isn't a deal breaker for me, I'm just curious as to why they would leave it out.

Click to expand...

Sorry Android, it wasn't directed towards you. I truly feel you know your camera well and you are just looking for that last piece of the puzzle (WR). I have no issue with that. I know you like your camera anyway.

MJ_Photo38 said:

John Gellings said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

!

Click to expand...

Do you guys travel in bad weather mostly?

Click to expand...

Mostly? No. But I can count on the fingers of one hand the times when I was travelling and I didn't catch rain during the trip I don't really want rain to limit my ability to take photos, especially when rain generally makes things interesing, do you? Or you know, maybe we could live in regions where rain is more frequent, like south-east Asia?

Click to expand...

No, I like to be prepared. However, I do so by purchasing the right equipment for what I want to do. Honestly, if you like to photograph in the rain, you buy the proper camera right? I use 4 different cameras and two of them have WR.

MJ_Photo38 said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

Weather sealing offers a peace of mind when abroad : you know that even if you get surprised by the rain or snow, your camera isn't at risk.

Click to expand...

A bag will do the same…

Click to expand...

Oh great! Do you have a camera backpack that allows me to shoot with my camera while it's in it? I'd love to have the name of it !

Click to expand...

We were talking about being surprised by a weather event with a non WR camera I thought...

MJ_Photo38 said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

I mostly buy used cameras for that exact reason : would an X-T20 have been sufficient for my needs? Yes ! Did I spend the extra money to get an X-T2 for the weather sealing? Yes also!

Click to expand...

There you go. If you are serious enough to photograph in bad weather, you buy the appropriate gear. You don’t buy first and then complain.

Click to expand...

My point is that that X-T2 I bought barely more expensive than the X-T20 I was looking at.

Click to expand...

It's true...sometimes the X-T2 is cheaper. It is basically the best used Fuji out there.

MJ_Photo38 said:

A 1300 USD camera should have weather sealing, end of story.

Click to expand...

Apparently, the story hasn't ended. Fuji chose not to include it.

MJ_Photo38 said:

I am not looking at defending OP here. He didn't do his research, well that's too bad and that ain't something we can fix.

Click to expand...

I beg to differ. I think he completely did his research and then loves his camera so much he is thinking what if regarding WR. He is not the type to make a mistake on features. He knew what he was buying completely.

MJ_Photo38 said:

However, there is not point arguing that the lack of weather sealing for a camera like the X-S20 is an oversight.

Click to expand...

Do you really think it was just a simple oversight?

--
https://www.johngellings.com
Instagram = @johngellings0

And-roid said:

John Gellings said:

And-roid said:

vallhall said:

The only thing XS20 is better than A1, is weight

Click to expand...

You will find X-S20 is brutally better!;

6.2k open gate, 3:2 anamorphic or 30fps with object tracking

5.2k/60p/ HDMI BMVA or Atomos or 6.2k

Pre-Shot

15min long exposure upto 15min, without needing bulb

Better lcd

Better ibis, much

Double exposure

Focus Bracketing

Pin point af

Soft af selection

Latest ai

26mp apsc

Next to no moire/aliasing

Better dr at iso 160

Fuji sims

More functionality presets

Better/quicker objects recognition

Better battery life

Smaller,lighter

FAS screen

etc, etc

Click to expand...

and you're going to stress out about WR when you feel all of that is better than a $5000 to $6000 camera?

Use it is the rain, if it dies, throw it in the gutter and go buy another...

Click to expand...

I am not complaining about the X-S20, I am asking why in 2023 Fuji would make a phenomenal compact camera that punches at a new level skimp on a bit of WR?

Click to expand...

I am not sure why, but many people have gave answers. My guess is that they were afraid to lose sales on higher end models. I mean, the X-S20 is quite the camera. I get it...I would like to have the perfect camera too. Unfortunately, I never have and I've spent a lot more than $1299.

alphaZ said:

Is it a non-issue for me, yes, is it a non issue for Fuji, could be! On paper many people don't understand even remotely what I am saying or even what I am going on about, to the masses it's a mid, even entry level camera as many have reminded me here too, why? because its weather sealed and doesn't have two cards slots, lol, ignorance is bliss.

Click to expand...

No, entry to mid level doesn't mean it is bad. It just means it isn't going to have every feature. I think they gave this camera a hell of a lot at this price to be honest. You provided the list above.

Lettermanian said:

Believe me, I'd also love it if the mid-tier cameras did have weather sealing, but in general that would mean there would be other compromises made in order to protect the top-tier. A WR X-T40 or X-E5 would be awesome, but the specs would have to be lower than the X-S20 to keep price points reasonable. I just don't think we will see a mid-tier in Fuji's lineup with WR, regardless of what the other brands have.

Click to expand...

Well the thing is that what got me into Fuji in the first place was that it was a brand where you bought the camera that you needed based on form factor.

getting a lower end body would not mean having a lower end sensor (at least until this last generation) if you look at generations like the X-Trans II or III (even applies to the X-Trans IV generation to an extend).

Lettermanian said:

In some respects, I'd argue that the X-H2 is the odd camera here; its existence is a bit perplexing, especially since the X-S20 with its feature set would have been in development at the same time. Arguably, the X-H2S and the X-T5 make sense. What would have made better sense would have been a "top-tier" X-S20 with WR, 3.6M-dot EVF and dual slots. That would leave enough differentiation between the performance camera, the high-res camera, and the top video-centric camera, and would allow a clearer direction for mid-tier cameras.

Click to expand...

If such a camera existed, I wouldn't even see the point of the X-H2S existing. Only people with very specific needs would get it, 90% (or more) of people would be satisfied with an X-S20 with WR and dual SD slots (probably being a little larger to house them). It would be a nice upgrade from the X-T4 without compromising video like the X-T5 does.

Lettermanian said:

I am now not even hopeful to see features like IBIS in the next X-E camera.

Probably not, but if the X-E5 was basically an X-E4 with WR added, and no other improvements, would you still want it? That's the kind of camera we'd probably be looking at if Fuji stopped using WR as a differentiating spec.

Click to expand...

If you ask me, as long as the camera isn't super budget, it should include weather sealing. If Canon, Nikon and Sony could put weather sealing (even some basic one! No need to be as rugged as a Pentax K1) on an EOS RP, Z50 and A6400, there is no reason why Fuji couldn't do it on the X-S20. Especially at that pricepoint.

And honestly, an X-S20 without IBIS in the X-E4 body with WR for 1000/1100 USD sounds like a pretty awesome camera. I know a lot of people that sold their X-E4 and bought an X100V with the conversion lenses because there is no other small weather sealed camera in Fuji's lineup. There is demand for this kind of camera. No WR but same approach (basically X-S20 in X-E4 body without IBIS) would probably be met by the same kind of thread we are discussing in right now.

I think the same is true for an X-T40

And-roid said:

Flying Fijian said:

MJ_Photo38 said:

Yeah, and being coherent withing it own product stack is one thing, being coherent with the market is even better.

I could let the X-S10 get away without weather sealing at its MSRP of $999. It made sense in the market it was in.

At $1299 however, the X-S20 has a much more serious competition, and ALL of its competitors are equipped with weather sealing, making it a pretty big knock against the S20 in my opinion. Especially when cameras like the Sony A6700 have it, have pretty similar specs otherwise, as well as some advantages (more robust Sony AF etc) and is just about $100 apart from the X-S20.

That's not product segmentation, that's an oversight.

Click to expand...

Yes agreed...Fujis still persisting with this while increasing the price.

Click to expand...

The price increase is justifed

Click to expand...

Hmm if the price increase is justified and the camera is so amazing what are you complaining about?? WR would then increase the price even further!

alphaZ said:

UHS-II

Decent Buffer

Better IBIS

Better LCD

New level AF that out of this world better than the A7IV and the A6700 even with its object tracking

Same af speed as the A9 in a tiny package

6.2k open gate

5.2k/50/60p over HDMI

List goes on, its a much better camera in use than the A7IV, despite the lower res evf and actually better in every way, including af than the a6700.

Click to expand...

Yeah I don't about AF being out of this world lol...you are also claiming it's better than a stacked sensor? Interesting. Earlier you were saying how amazing XH2 was and Fuji was selling it for too cheap!

alphaZ said:

alphaZ said:

Also, Fujis PASM implementation was half baked too...not a if they've improved with the X-S20.

Click to expand...

Excuse, what's half-baked about it?

alphaZ said:

If they can't do it right, might as well just stick with the retro dials (and next level sooc jpg recipe setting implementation) which is why people choose Fuji anyway.

Click to expand...

I'm confused, what didn't they do right, I have a Sony A7IV, A6700, X-S20 what's different with the PSAM?

Click to expand...

Well they've mixed in all the jpg settings in there for one...on the XH2 bodies the PASM dial is on the left, anyway I'm finding the Sony more intuitive and the button placement/customisations just better. If you're not having issues, that's good.

Anyway, if you like the XS20 that's great...too bad they did not add WR. What about the lens selection though...?

I think you said it well here: Fuji has chosen WR as one of the features to differentiate their tiers.

Personally I think it's a sensible choice, because the left more of the core intact. Sure, WR is nice, but what feature would one then want to trade in to keep enough distance with the higher model?