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No weather sealing rationale in 2023?

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michaeladawson said:
Not really sure what 2023 has to do with anything. Despite global warming, basic weather hasn't changed.

Just me, but I don't need a weather sealed camera just for the sake of it. I did just fine with cameras from the 70s, as well as digital cameras all through the last 20 years. If I need a weather sealed camera I'll buy one.
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The problem is you never know when you'll need a weather sealed camera.

2023 is a modern time. I think that's the point. Weather seals are so much more common today than they were in years past (2013, for example). Canon didn't put weather seals in the 5 D, but as time went by they realized people wanted them, and they put weather seals in the 5 D Mark II. Probably every Canon and every Nikon include weather seals these days, as do just about every Sony. My Sony A55 did not include weather seals, and I bought that for about $600 at the Sony Style store in the mall. Of course the A77 was weather sealed, and it was $1,200. I think all the full-frame Sony cameras have been weather sealed. Even medium format cameras have weather seals these days. It's considered normal for a premium camera to be weather sealed in 2023 (but not back in 2013). Sigma, for example, has been weather sealing every interchangeable lens camera they make for more than ten years now . . . not that they make many cameras. Their first few cameras, which were all over $1,000, did not include weather seals, but starting with the SD1 they have included weather seals. Pentax does it too. Most of the lenses Fuji makes are weather sealed. What's the point of mounting a weather sealed lens on a camera that isn't weather sealed? Why expect people to buy your camera for more than a thousand dollars, when these days there are several options available for under $1,000 that have weather seals?

I think it was shortsighted . . . even stupid for Fuji to make a premium level camera (which any camera over $1,000 is, purely by its high price), but then not include weather seals in the construction of it. It's just plain silly, and it's hurting them. If they had just spent a few dollars more, and included weather seals, it would not be an issue, and this thread would not exist, and people who ask if the camera has weather seals would hear a comforting "yes" as the reply, rather than, "Uhh . . . I'm not sure." (BTW, that is salesman speak for, "No.") Nobody wants to admit that their camera (or any product they are trying to sell) is handicapped . . . and that's what the S20 is . . . handicapped.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
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Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
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You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
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How would you like the data presented, and are you going to show me 20+ consecutive frames all in focus of a bird moving and being tracked with your X-H2s?

I have 2 examples, Seagull coming at me, to the point of filling the frame and a Sanderling at distance dropping into land, left to right, both examples 20fps, around 30 frames or more, ie 1.5 seconds complete focus throughout pretty much with just the 55-200 ie 300mm @4.8 and it's impressive!

What examples can you show?

Everything I've seen with the X-H2s is around 82% in focus @20fps, so 16-17 on the Mirrorless comparison site tests, can you substantiate better? oh and they were big birds, Kites no less, not a sanderling or with a 55-200.
 
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
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Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
Click to expand...
You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
Click to expand...
How would you like the data presented, and are you going to show me 20+ consecutive frames all in focus of a bird moving and being tracked with your X-H2s?

I have 2 examples, Seagull coming at me, to the point of filling the frame and a Sanderling at distance dropping into land, left to right, both examples 20fps, around 30 frames or more, ie 1.5 seconds complete focus throughout pretty much with just the 55-200 ie 300mm @4.8 and it's impressive!

What examples can you show?

Everything I've seen with the X-H2s is around 82% in focus @20fps, so 16-17 on the Mirrorless comparison site tests, can you substantiate better? oh and they were big birds, Kites no less, not a sanderling or with a 55-200.
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I’ve seen plenty enough examples from some very talented photographers here to convince me that the differences are real. I don’t have anything to prove… you’re the one that made the broad statement, and I’m simply asking for some sort of proof points to sustantiate your comments. Otherwise, like many such opinions, I’ll take them with a large grain of salt and choose to believe others who’ve extensively used and demonstrated the capabilities of the X-H2s.
 
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
Click to expand...
Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
Click to expand...
You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
Click to expand...
How would you like the data presented, and are you going to show me 20+ consecutive frames all in focus of a bird moving and being tracked with your X-H2s?

I have 2 examples, Seagull coming at me, to the point of filling the frame and a Sanderling at distance dropping into land, left to right, both examples 20fps, around 30 frames or more, ie 1.5 seconds complete focus throughout pretty much with just the 55-200 ie 300mm @4.8 and it's impressive!

What examples can you show?

Everything I've seen with the X-H2s is around 82% in focus @20fps, so 16-17 on the Mirrorless comparison site tests, can you substantiate better? oh and they were big birds, Kites no less, not a sanderling or with a 55-200.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen plenty enough examples from some very talented photographers here to convince me that the differences are real. I don’t have anything to prove… you’re the one that made the broad statement, and I’m simply asking for some sort of proof points to sustantiate your comments. Otherwise, like many such opinions, I’ll take them with a large grain of salt and choose to believe others who’ve extensively used and demonstrated the capabilities of the X-H2s.
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Hang on a second, can you point me to the above evidence of these results you have seen?

I can 100% substantiate my claims, I want to see your evidence too, as the X-H2s has been around a while now, 30-40 fps in focus, 80%+ small bird example at 30ft, perfectly tracked and large bird approach, seagull is fine or similar size?

We know from mirrorless comparison the X-H2s is ranked quite low, hit rate of around 80%, do you have evidence its better?
 
Scottelly said:
JNR said:
So much of what is opined by the OP based on user experience is counter to the comparative data available - the incorrect assumptions should be addressed. The reality is the H2 and H2s are superior, higher-level bodies with high-performing sensors, and better DR (at least H2 clearly has better overall DR). The OP can claim the opposite regarding the older sensor, but the tests are clear. It is unfortunate that the OP had some user error issues, and claims the camera is responsible for the clipping, but this has not been reported elsewhere.

As for weather sealing (much of which is marketing hype and is not covered by warranty), many of us never had a problem over decades of intelligent shooting with cameras that had no sealing whatsoever. Simply use appropriate safeguards. If that is not satisfactory, buy a used 24-26mp body with WR... many options are available.

Rest assured, Fujifilm will not be taking your advice.
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Well I hope you're wrong about that. I think Fuji should make every one of their cameras with weather seals. It's not a major expense. They just decided at some point to not include it in their less expensive cameras, but I would prefer they include it in every camera they make for many reasons. The marketing benefit alone would probably make doing that worthwhile (being able to brag that every one of their cameras and lenses since 202x has weather seals).

Weather seals are a selling point to even the newbie. EVERYONE knows that weather seals make something better, more robust, more "weather-proof" . . . and why would a company that makes premium products, like interchangeable lens cameras, not want to make their products better? (especially when it doesn't cost much do do it)
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Correct
 
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
Click to expand...
Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
Click to expand...
You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
Click to expand...
 
And-roid said:
michaeladawson said:
Not really sure what 2023 has to do with anything. Despite global warming, basic weather hasn't changed.

Just me, but I don't need a weather sealed camera just for the sake of it. I did just fine with cameras from the 70s, as well as digital cameras all through the last 20 years. If I need a weather sealed camera I'll buy one.
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Except, its hard to replicate the X-S20 at any price with its size and feature set;

Canon? R7, no thanks, no lenses anyway

Canon R8, 24mp, so for range you need the 100-500, big and 3k. and body has no ibis

Canon R6II, same as R8, same lens situation, but getting really big body now.

Sony, a6700, supposed to be their equivalent to the X-S20, again, lacking a lot of functionality;

no auto switching from mech to e-shutter to go from 1/4000 up through 1/8000, manual selection only.

Nothing above 1/8000

No pin-point af still, although object recognition is decent if not at X-S20 level imo

Nothing more than 11fps, selection of lossless raw drops it to <8fps

No uncompressed raw, always compressed, lossy or lossless but always compressed unlike Fuji and Sony latest FF offerings eg A7IV

No 6k 3:2 ratio video option

No pre-shot/rolling buffer

No double exposure

No way to go longer than 30seconds without bulb

No 20/30 fps or sport mode

No joystick

shallow buffer, almost useless lossless raw buffer fps, 17 shots or something

Ergonomically the X-S20 is a step ahead, dual buttons on the back, af-l and ae-l, nice rocker on the top, dial for iso, central placement of evf is probably better imo, joystick, better lcd resolution, a lot better.

Sony a7c ii, should be the same iq as the A7IV, except,

No mechanical shutter at all, just efcs which can truncate bokeh

basically the a6700 with the 33mp FF sensor, so look at the list above its the same limitations, but a6700 and A7Cii do offer weather sealing lol.

There's 3 cameras that seem to do what the X-S20 does, Z8/Z9/A1, but the A1 again very limited in functionality compared to the X-S20 and the Z8/Z9 are monsters, but they are weather sealed and offer object tracking.
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I'm sorry, but are you seriously comparing the S20 with the Z9 and A1?!? (Smoked any crack lately?)

The Z9 is an 8K full-frame camera, with a 45 MP sensor, weather seals, and sits firmly atop the heap of the most expensive and professional cameras available on Earth today. The A1 is the same, but lighter and with a 50 MP full-frame sensor instead.

The S20 is a prosumer camera, which can't shoot 8K video, has a 26 MP sensor, and is a small, light, fragile little camera for people who want something small and light. It's not for pros. It's for amateurs and advanced amateurs. The X-H2 and X-H2S are for pros, and offer professional features, though it's only the X-H2 that can shoot 8K video, with its 40 MP sensor.

I'm not saying it's not a great camera. It just can't be compared to the top pro cameras any more than a performance edition of the Mazda 3 can be compared to a top-of-the-line Ferrari or Lamborghini.

--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
 
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charisgratia said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
And-roid said:
To me, the X-S20 is a phenomenal unexpected gem of a camera, it combines the best aps-c sensor available (imo) and FujiFilm latest generation ai deep learning af to very good effect and functionality set unmatched except in many of the high end cameras and even then there is no match. I basically like everything about the camera except, no declared weather sealing!

This is a camera we are expected to travel with, the world is an environmental mess currently, winds/storms/dust/fire/humidity/extreme weather conditions are the order of the day, expect the unexpected, I suspect a few of us here have already experienced these day to day weather extremes first hand too.

So, its 2023 Fuji, why make such a great camera like the X-S20 and then decide not to offer any form of weather sealing, or at least declare any? What's the point of a camera like the X-S20 if I feel I need to protect it all the time?
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It's a great camera, but it's also an entry level model. Upgrade to the X-H2/S for siilar PSAM UI and you also have weather sealing.
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Minor point, but how is a $1300 APS-C camera an entry-level model? I've seen it referred to as mid-range elsewhere. When I think of entry-level, I think of my first Fuji... an X-T200 that I got on closeout with the 15-45 kit lens for $499. :-D

The X-S20 price is close to Canon's top-of-the-line mirrorless crop camera, the R7, which does have weather sealing along with dual card slots and IBIS.
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The X-S20 with a kit zoom is $400 more than the Fuji X-T30 with the same lens, so obviously the X-S20 is not Fuji's entry level model. Still, it's one of them, because above the X-S20 is the X-T5, which is well above the X-S20 in price (hundreds of dollars more), and obviously it's their middle-of-range camera, because above the X-T5 there are two more models, including the X-H2 and the X-H2S, which are obviously the top of their range, and both priced over $2,000 with a lens.
 
Scottelly said:
John Gellings said:
And-roid said:
grcolts said:
For less money you can purchase a Pentax K70 or KF that has an articulated screen, lots of lens available and is weather resistant. Just saying.
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X-S20 is not a cheap camera, its actually top tier in the X-S series and therefore lacking in the obvious!
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Top tier of 1. However, for $1299, you do start getting towards weather resistance pricing. Maybe next time.
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In 2023 any camera over $1,000 should have weather seals. Sigma put weather seals in their $800 SD Quattro years ago. Plenty of camera companies include weather seals in cameras under $1,000. Fuji was being shortsighted when they decided to not include them in the S20.
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If you think of weather sealing in the same way as watches, getting to a "water resistant" rating requires a minimum of engineering and added cost, but 200m depth rated divers are quite another thing. So, you can see - very easily - that Pentax and Nikon take it mostly seriously - and you are getting some real value out of the WR claim. Others, including Fujifilm, on the bodies at least, it has little more than marketing value. Some of the higher end Fuji optics certainly do have serious WR... others not much more than the thin rubber seal at the mount.

Generally, there is no standard in the photo industry (because the manufacturers want no liability), and the amount of effort is correspondingly minimal compared to quality watch seals that have a proper rating of 100m or more. As to your photo gear, best be careful rather than sorry.
 
You call it silly. I call it market segmentation.
 
Scottelly said:
The S20 is a prosumer camera, which can't shoot 8K video, has a 26 MP sensor, and is a small, light, fragile little camera for people who want something small and light. It's not for pros.
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Professionals use all types of cameras. A professional might not need WR, while an amateur might.
Scottelly said:
It's for amateurs and advanced amateurs. The X-H2 and X-H2S are for pros, and offer professional features, though it's only the X-H2 that can shoot 8K video, with its 40 MP sensor.
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Scottelly said:
I think it was shortsighted . . . even stupid for Fuji to make a premium level camera (which any camera over $1,000 is, purely by its high price), but then not include weather seals in the construction of it. It's just plain silly, and it's hurting them.
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Do you have proof that it is hurting them in any way, shape or form?
 
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
Click to expand...
Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
Click to expand...
You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
Click to expand...
How would you like the data presented, and are you going to show me 20+ consecutive frames all in focus of a bird moving and being tracked with your X-H2s?

I have 2 examples, Seagull coming at me, to the point of filling the frame and a Sanderling at distance dropping into land, left to right, both examples 20fps, around 30 frames or more, ie 1.5 seconds complete focus throughout pretty much with just the 55-200 ie 300mm @4.8 and it's impressive!

What examples can you show?

Everything I've seen with the X-H2s is around 82% in focus @20fps, so 16-17 on the Mirrorless comparison site tests, can you substantiate better? oh and they were big birds, Kites no less, not a sanderling or with a 55-200.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen plenty enough examples from some very talented photographers here to convince me that the differences are real. I don’t have anything to prove… you’re the one that made the broad statement, and I’m simply asking for some sort of proof points to sustantiate your comments. Otherwise, like many such opinions, I’ll take them with a large grain of salt and choose to believe others who’ve extensively used and demonstrated the capabilities of the X-H2s.
Click to expand...
Hang on a second, can you point me to the above evidence of these results you have seen?

I can 100% substantiate my claims, I want to see your evidence too, as the X-H2s has been around a while now, 30-40 fps in focus, 80%+ small bird example at 30ft, perfectly tracked and large bird approach, seagull is fine or similar size?

We know from mirrorless comparison the X-H2s is ranked quite low, hit rate of around 80%, do you have evidence its better?
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My own evidence? No… because I don’t stretch the camera’s AF to the extent that many far more talented photographers here do. I based a decent amount of my opinion here on posts and examples from photographers here with a track record and positive comments on the X-H2s. So, if you claim to be able to substantiate your points, please do so. I’m sure many folks are dying to see some proof points that validate your comments here. Otherwise… frankly it’s just another opinion on the internet as far as I’m concerned.
 
I still have the 20D, and I'm not surprised that yours held out so long (and did fine in adverse conditions). I also had the 5D, but sold it when the body still had considerable value. The 20D just isn't worth the effort of selling, but I could imagine some youngster will get an opportunity to learn on it using an old Tamron zoom (also of little value).

I have the sense that the newer cameras (no matter the brand) might not have the same endurance due to added complexity of electronics (although the newer shutters are amazing)... WR or not.
 
Scottelly said:
charisgratia said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
And-roid said:
To me, the X-S20 is a phenomenal unexpected gem of a camera, it combines the best aps-c sensor available (imo) and FujiFilm latest generation ai deep learning af to very good effect and functionality set unmatched except in many of the high end cameras and even then there is no match. I basically like everything about the camera except, no declared weather sealing!

This is a camera we are expected to travel with, the world is an environmental mess currently, winds/storms/dust/fire/humidity/extreme weather conditions are the order of the day, expect the unexpected, I suspect a few of us here have already experienced these day to day weather extremes first hand too.

So, its 2023 Fuji, why make such a great camera like the X-S20 and then decide not to offer any form of weather sealing, or at least declare any? What's the point of a camera like the X-S20 if I feel I need to protect it all the time?
Click to expand...
It's a great camera, but it's also an entry level model. Upgrade to the X-H2/S for siilar PSAM UI and you also have weather sealing.
Click to expand...
Minor point, but how is a $1300 APS-C camera an entry-level model? I've seen it referred to as mid-range elsewhere. When I think of entry-level, I think of my first Fuji... an X-T200 that I got on closeout with the 15-45 kit lens for $499. :-D

The X-S20 price is close to Canon's top-of-the-line mirrorless crop camera, the R7, which does have weather sealing along with dual card slots and IBIS.
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The X-S20 with a kit zoom is $400 more than the Fuji X-T30 with the same lens, so obviously the X-S20 is not Fuji's entry level model. Still, it's one of them, because above the X-S20 is the X-T5, which is well above the X-S20 in price (hundreds of dollars more), and obviously it's their middle-of-range camera, because above the X-T5 there are two more models, including the X-H2 and the X-H2S, which are obviously the top of their range, and both priced over $2,000 with a lens.
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Eh... I'm familiar with the supposed hierarchy. Last year, I had the X-T4, and it was considered their top camera, then I had the X-T5, but by then that line was considered mid-range. Lol.

I still don't consider X-S20 entry-level when it has better video specs and AF than the X-T5.

I guess we'll see if Fuji releases any future X-mount cameras that are genuinely entry-level (e.g, the X-Txxx line for one).
 
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see title
 
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
Click to expand...
Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
Click to expand...
You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
Click to expand...
How would you like the data presented, and are you going to show me 20+ consecutive frames all in focus of a bird moving and being tracked with your X-H2s?

I have 2 examples, Seagull coming at me, to the point of filling the frame and a Sanderling at distance dropping into land, left to right, both examples 20fps, around 30 frames or more, ie 1.5 seconds complete focus throughout pretty much with just the 55-200 ie 300mm @4.8 and it's impressive!

What examples can you show?

Everything I've seen with the X-H2s is around 82% in focus @20fps, so 16-17 on the Mirrorless comparison site tests, can you substantiate better? oh and they were big birds, Kites no less, not a sanderling or with a 55-200.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen plenty enough examples from some very talented photographers here to convince me that the differences are real. I don’t have anything to prove… you’re the one that made the broad statement, and I’m simply asking for some sort of proof points to sustantiate your comments. Otherwise, like many such opinions, I’ll take them with a large grain of salt and choose to believe others who’ve extensively used and demonstrated the capabilities of the X-H2s.
Click to expand...
Hang on a second, can you point me to the above evidence of these results you have seen?

I can 100% substantiate my claims, I want to see your evidence too, as the X-H2s has been around a while now, 30-40 fps in focus, 80%+ small bird example at 30ft, perfectly tracked and large bird approach, seagull is fine or similar size?

We know from mirrorless comparison the X-H2s is ranked quite low, hit rate of around 80%, do you have evidence its better?
Click to expand...
My own evidence? No… because I don’t stretch the camera’s AF to the extent that many far more talented photographers here do. I based a decent amount of my opinion here on posts and examples from photographers here with a track record and positive comments on the X-H2s. So, if you claim to be able to substantiate your points, please do so. I’m sure many folks are dying to see some proof points that validate your comments here. Otherwise… frankly it’s just another opinion on the internet as far as I’m concerned.
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Evidence is coming....................... X-S20 is as good as Sony A1, better!
 
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
Click to expand...
Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
Click to expand...
You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
Click to expand...
How would you like the data presented, and are you going to show me 20+ consecutive frames all in focus of a bird moving and being tracked with your X-H2s?

I have 2 examples, Seagull coming at me, to the point of filling the frame and a Sanderling at distance dropping into land, left to right, both examples 20fps, around 30 frames or more, ie 1.5 seconds complete focus throughout pretty much with just the 55-200 ie 300mm @4.8 and it's impressive!

What examples can you show?

Everything I've seen with the X-H2s is around 82% in focus @20fps, so 16-17 on the Mirrorless comparison site tests, can you substantiate better? oh and they were big birds, Kites no less, not a sanderling or with a 55-200.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen plenty enough examples from some very talented photographers here to convince me that the differences are real. I don’t have anything to prove… you’re the one that made the broad statement, and I’m simply asking for some sort of proof points to sustantiate your comments. Otherwise, like many such opinions, I’ll take them with a large grain of salt and choose to believe others who’ve extensively used and demonstrated the capabilities of the X-H2s.
Click to expand...
Hang on a second, can you point me to the above evidence of these results you have seen?

I can 100% substantiate my claims, I want to see your evidence too, as the X-H2s has been around a while now, 30-40 fps in focus, 80%+ small bird example at 30ft, perfectly tracked and large bird approach, seagull is fine or similar size?

We know from mirrorless comparison the X-H2s is ranked quite low, hit rate of around 80%, do you have evidence its better?
Click to expand...
My own evidence? No… because I don’t stretch the camera’s AF to the extent that many far more talented photographers here do. I based a decent amount of my opinion here on posts and examples from photographers here with a track record and positive comments on the X-H2s. So, if you claim to be able to substantiate your points, please do so. I’m sure many folks are dying to see some proof points that validate your comments here. Otherwise… frankly it’s just another opinion on the internet as far as I’m concerned.
Click to expand...
Evidence is coming....................... X-S20 is as good as Sony A1, better!
Click to expand...
The only thing XS20 is better than A1, is weight
 
vallhall said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Jerry-astro said:
And-roid said:
Alan Hewitt Photo said:
I feel that judging a camera like the X-H2S using graphs showing marginal / fractional differences in dynamic range at different ISO compared to other camera bodies is totally missing the point of what the X-H2S is designed for. Fast frames per second, buffer, pre-shot, electronic shutter advantages, AF etc etc, it's about speed. Pixel peeping at this sort of level is something I wouldn't even consider!
Click to expand...
Alan, the X-S20 does all that too!
Click to expand...
You seriously want to compare the performance of an X-S20 vs. the X-H2S? Please, by all means, share your data. I’m sure many folks will be anxious to see it.
Click to expand...
What, you want to see 20fps bif tracking?
Click to expand...
No, you made a very broad statement suggesting that the X-S20 essentially offers the same basic performance as the X-H2S. Let’s see your proof points where the “X-S20 does all that too.”
Click to expand...
How would you like the data presented, and are you going to show me 20+ consecutive frames all in focus of a bird moving and being tracked with your X-H2s?

I have 2 examples, Seagull coming at me, to the point of filling the frame and a Sanderling at distance dropping into land, left to right, both examples 20fps, around 30 frames or more, ie 1.5 seconds complete focus throughout pretty much with just the 55-200 ie 300mm @4.8 and it's impressive!

What examples can you show?

Everything I've seen with the X-H2s is around 82% in focus @20fps, so 16-17 on the Mirrorless comparison site tests, can you substantiate better? oh and they were big birds, Kites no less, not a sanderling or with a 55-200.
Click to expand...
I’ve seen plenty enough examples from some very talented photographers here to convince me that the differences are real. I don’t have anything to prove… you’re the one that made the broad statement, and I’m simply asking for some sort of proof points to sustantiate your comments. Otherwise, like many such opinions, I’ll take them with a large grain of salt and choose to believe others who’ve extensively used and demonstrated the capabilities of the X-H2s.
Click to expand...
Hang on a second, can you point me to the above evidence of these results you have seen?

I can 100% substantiate my claims, I want to see your evidence too, as the X-H2s has been around a while now, 30-40 fps in focus, 80%+ small bird example at 30ft, perfectly tracked and large bird approach, seagull is fine or similar size?

We know from mirrorless comparison the X-H2s is ranked quite low, hit rate of around 80%, do you have evidence its better?
Click to expand...
My own evidence? No… because I don’t stretch the camera’s AF to the extent that many far more talented photographers here do. I based a decent amount of my opinion here on posts and examples from photographers here with a track record and positive comments on the X-H2s. So, if you claim to be able to substantiate your points, please do so. I’m sure many folks are dying to see some proof points that validate your comments here. Otherwise… frankly it’s just another opinion on the internet as far as I’m concerned.
Click to expand...
Evidence is coming....................... X-S20 is as good as Sony A1, better!
Click to expand...
The only thing XS20 is better than A1, is weight
Click to expand...
You will find X-S20 is brutally better!;

6.2k open gate, 3:2 anamorphic or 30fps with object tracking

5.2k/60p/ HDMI BMVA or Atomos or 6.2k

Pre-Shot

15min long exposure upto 15min, without needing bulb

Better lcd

Better ibis, much

Double exposure

Focus Bracketing

Pin point af

Soft af selection

Latest ai

26mp apsc

Next to no moire/aliasing

Better dr at iso 160

Fuji sims

More functionality presets

Better/quicker objects recognition

Better battery life

Smaller,lighter

FAS screen

etc, etc

👍
 
Scottelly said:
And-roid said:
michaeladawson said:
Not really sure what 2023 has to do with anything. Despite global warming, basic weather hasn't changed.

Just me, but I don't need a weather sealed camera just for the sake of it. I did just fine with cameras from the 70s, as well as digital cameras all through the last 20 years. If I need a weather sealed camera I'll buy one.
Click to expand...
Except, its hard to replicate the X-S20 at any price with its size and feature set;

Canon? R7, no thanks, no lenses anyway

Canon R8, 24mp, so for range you need the 100-500, big and 3k. and body has no ibis

Canon R6II, same as R8, same lens situation, but getting really big body now.

Sony, a6700, supposed to be their equivalent to the X-S20, again, lacking a lot of functionality;

no auto switching from mech to e-shutter to go from 1/4000 up through 1/8000, manual selection only.

Nothing above 1/8000

No pin-point af still, although object recognition is decent if not at X-S20 level imo

Nothing more than 11fps, selection of lossless raw drops it to <8fps

No uncompressed raw, always compressed, lossy or lossless but always compressed unlike Fuji and Sony latest FF offerings eg A7IV

No 6k 3:2 ratio video option

No pre-shot/rolling buffer

No double exposure

No way to go longer than 30seconds without bulb

No 20/30 fps or sport mode

No joystick

shallow buffer, almost useless lossless raw buffer fps, 17 shots or something

Ergonomically the X-S20 is a step ahead, dual buttons on the back, af-l and ae-l, nice rocker on the top, dial for iso, central placement of evf is probably better imo, joystick, better lcd resolution, a lot better.

Sony a7c ii, should be the same iq as the A7IV, except,

No mechanical shutter at all, just efcs which can truncate bokeh

basically the a6700 with the 33mp FF sensor, so look at the list above its the same limitations, but a6700 and A7Cii do offer weather sealing lol.

There's 3 cameras that seem to do what the X-S20 does, Z8/Z9/A1, but the A1 again very limited in functionality compared to the X-S20 and the Z8/Z9 are monsters, but they are weather sealed and offer object tracking.
Click to expand...
I'm sorry, but are you seriously comparing the S20 with the Z9 and A1?!? (Smoked any crack lately?)
Click to expand...
Come on, I know physically its no A1 or Z8/9, but;

1) I'm an amateur, so to me all cameras considered same, I'm interested in features/functionality as well as IQ, weight, size etc but ironically not price/cost in my case. If its big its a pita, if its small, cool

I'm pretty sure tge A1/Z9 will be more practical for Professionals, at events etc but like I say I couldn't care less about these guy's.
Scottelly said:
The Z9 is an 8K full-frame camera, with a 45 MP sensor, weather seals, and sits firmly atop the heap of the most expensive and professional cameras available on Earth today. The A1 is the same, but lighter and with a 50 MP full-frame sensor instead.
Click to expand...
For info, I've had several A1's, Z9/8 are later releases and A1 is now showing its age.
Scottelly said:
The S20 is a prosumer camera, which can't shoot 8K video,
Click to expand...
Mate, who needs 8k video? Even professionals will at most be shooting 4k. Maybe for Hollywood, but anyone amateur shooting 8k is definitely smoking something.

What differentiates tge X-S20 from an A1 for example is 6.2k/30p in 3:2 ratio or 5.2k/60p. These are very practical frame rates and allows small bursts with object tracking and extraction of stills.

Even the 4k is better specified on the X-S20 than the A1 believe it or not
Scottelly said:
has a 26 MP sensor
Click to expand...
So what, the X-S20 with good glass will be no different to FF results, all you have is more pixels, I'm not shooting for billboards and you'd be surprised at the size you can print with 26mp
Scottelly said:
, and is a small, light, fragile
Click to expand...
Fragile, lol, its as tough as anything, it has a magnesium alloy shell, its strong and its construction istop notch. I'm moaning about weather sealing not actual construction which is excellent
Scottelly said:
little camera for people who want something small and light
Click to expand...
Yes, that's the ticket, small, light, discrete, take anywhere.

But, add an l plate grip or cage and its soon a full on workhorse
Scottelly said:
. It's not for pros.
Click to expand...
You'd be surprised what pro's need/use once they realize how good something is.
Scottelly said:
It's for amateurs and advanced amateurs. The X-H2 and X-H2S are for pros
Click to expand...
Lol, X-H2, what? with that slow sensor readout, btw no 6.2k 3:2 ratio or 5.2k/60p on X-H2!!

So, the stacked 26mp with less dr is for Professionals and the X-S20 isn't, hmm, lol you have a different understanding to me.
Scottelly said:
, and offer professional features, though it's only the X-H2 that can shoot 8K video, with its 40 MP sensor.
Click to expand...
8k is not for Professionals, well it might be for someone but with the rolling shutter and noise I'm not convinced its on any professional radar for 8k
Scottelly said:
I'm not saying it's not a great camera. It just can't be compared to the top pro cameras any more than a performance edition of the Mazda 3 can be compared to a top-of-the-line Ferrari or Lamborghini.
Click to expand...
Well, Fuji put their state of the art engine in a BMW is probably the best way to look at it, and if the non stacked 26mp sensor is good enough for Sony's professional video camera, its good enough for me, besides I strongly believe its FujiFilm best ever xtrans sensor too 😀
Scottelly said:
--
Scott Barton Kennelly
https://www.bigprintphotos.com/
Click to expand...
 
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