High speed sync enough?

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What is your practical experience regarding whether monolights or even shoe-mount flashes with high-speed sync (HSS) suffice in place of leaf-shutter lenses (which can sync at any shutter speed) in situations where you need to balance relatively bright ambient light with flash lighting on the main subject at large or moderate apertures?

In a thread in another forum (https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67209463), a user asked why Fuji doesn't offer leaf-shutter lenses for its GFX system. I suspect (and suggested) that the reason is that often HSS suffices. After all, today there are 600, 1000, even 1200 Ws monolights that feature HSS, and common lighting setups often involve more than one such flash. I realize that HSS reduces light output, and that modifiers like softboxes and umbrellas reduce it further.

But would, say, a kit with two or three Godox AD600Pro monolights allow you to light adequately and to your taste, where you have to balance with outdoor daylight, using HSS instead of X-sync or a leaf-shutter lens?
 
You are confusing High Speed Sync with HyperSync, which Elinchrom refers to as Hi-Sync. They are different things.
Other than name and mechanism used to increase the flash pulse duration in what way are they different?
Practically speaking with HS and the Broncolor MOVE pack you're restricted to power level 6 (or higher) out of 10.

Q: Are you power restricted with your particular HSS option(s)? (e.g. does the monolight or pack restrict how much power is available during HSS, or is 100% available when you're in HSS mode all the time?)

There can be a higher incidence of gradient results with HS compared to HSS no matter how negligible depending on camera being used, etc..

Q: Have you noticed any notable gradations worth mentioning when you've used HSS?

Q: Can you use HSS when you're set at say, around 40 watt seconds or less?

Using HS I'm restricted to a floor of about 75ws. If HSS can be used say, with a snoot and manage a useable 1/6400th shutter speed, then that can be a boon for macro work if a bit of ambient is wanted and or when using strobes with flash durations slower than what one can get with a useable shutter speed in conjunction with HSS.

Q: When using HSS and HS, have you noticed one consistently putting more light on the subject than the other?

At the same distance, camera settings, etc., at full power I realized a brighter result with HS over HSS.

The chart at 2:45 is close enough to the conclusion that I drew from my own test using HSS and an AD600Pro. I don't own many of the other strobes so I can't confirm the rest of the figures. Given that his results for the AD600Pro are in line with mine, I stand to believe the rest of the results presented.
Does that youtuber's experience linked above square with your experience using HSS?
I feel that we, are wasting our breath here. You can't have a conversation with someone who won't listen. I am happy for them to prove me/us wrong but "trust me bro science" is not going to convince me.
 
You are confusing High Speed Sync with HyperSync, which Elinchrom refers to as Hi-Sync. They are different things.
Other than name and mechanism used to increase the flash pulse duration in what way are they different?
Practically speaking with HS and the Broncolor MOVE pack you're restricted to power level 6 (or higher) out of 10.

Q: Are you power restricted with your particular HSS option(s)? (e.g. does the monolight or pack restrict how much power is available during HSS, or is 100% available when you're in HSS mode all the time?)

There can be a higher incidence of gradient results with HS compared to HSS no matter how negligible depending on camera being used, etc..

Q: Have you noticed any notable gradations worth mentioning when you've used HSS?

Q: Can you use HSS when you're set at say, around 40 watt seconds or less?

Using HS I'm restricted to a floor of about 75ws. If HSS can be used say, with a snoot and manage a useable 1/6400th shutter speed, then that can be a boon for macro work if a bit of ambient is wanted and or when using strobes with flash durations slower than what one can get with a useable shutter speed in conjunction with HSS.

Q: When using HSS and HS, have you noticed one consistently putting more light on the subject than the other?

At the same distance, camera settings, etc., at full power I realized a brighter result with HS over HSS.

The chart at 2:45 is close enough to the conclusion that I drew from my own test using HSS and an AD600Pro. I don't own many of the other strobes so I can't confirm the rest of the figures. Given that his results for the AD600Pro are in line with mine, I stand to believe the rest of the results presented.
Does that youtuber's experience linked above square with your experience using HSS?
I feel that we, are wasting our breath here. You can't have a conversation with someone who won't listen. I am happy for them to prove me/us wrong but "trust me bro science" is not going to convince me.
I think we're seeing eye-to-eye.
 
I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.
As far as the portrait lens range and medium format cameras, there does not even seem to be a current medium format digital counterpart to what I regard as classics for tight head shots, the 135mm on FF / 35mm film, and the 250mm on 6x6. Maybe I don't understand the market, but that really surprises me.
That's something that has raised my eyebrow before as well as I wish there were generally longer focal lengths (I realize that I'm the exception to the rule). Oddly enough Pentax offers a lens array that fits me pretty well, though I think they can do better by revamping their older lenses with new coatings and wider apertures.

Pentax offers 90, 120, 150, 200, 300, 400 and 600mm, 645 lenses. That's not too shabby. The 90mm f/2.8 macro stabilized lens, is one of the newer lenses and is a competent lens - I skipped it and opted for the older 120mm f/4 macro instead, which is the first lens I'll grab for portraiture.. if not the 300mm. Overall I definitely prefer longer focal lengths for portraiture. When shooting "partial" body shots I'll even grab the 400mm which is akin to using a 300mm lens on a FF Canon/Nikon, and about 250mm on a 645 film camera which works fine, though longer and faster lenses would be even more preferred (by me) for location portraiture. I'd love to ditch the long-in-the-tooth 400 f/5.6 for a modern 400 f/2.8. ... a 300 f/2 would also be more than just tempting.

Note: on Canon/Nikon my preference for portraiture.. 100mm Ziess f/2 makro, 200 f/2, 300 f/2.8 (same practically the same quality as the 300 f/4 stopped down to my eyes), and the 400 f/2.8.... with the 70-200 f/2.8 being an exceptional all-rounder.

The Hasselblad H series had portraiture covered pretty well.. with the 120 and 300mm lenses. Likewise the new X series with 120 and the 135 (f/2.8)mm lenses... (I'd want for even longer focal lengths - a 300 f2 or 2.8 would fit me fine irrespective of the weight if i shot the X series... f/2 please!
Does the GFX system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes go from the 120mm macro to 250mm.
120mm is pretty standard across the MF sphere for macro and portrait work, which gives roughly the same result as shooting 100mm lens on FF. Not an issue for me, especially if 250, 300mm, or longer is offered... but I do wish longer focal lengths were offered. At least Pentax has some longer focal lengths from their old pipeline.
Does the Hasselblad X system have a 180mm or 185mm? No, the primes top out at 135mm (alone or sold with a 1.7x TC to give 230mm). Phase One offers a 240mm, which gives the equivalent of 155mm on the larger sensors in current Phase One backs.

Pentax offers a 200mm, which gives the equivalent of 158mm on a 645Z. But none of these systems offers a lens between the equivalent of 107mm and the equivalent of 155mm.
It seems as if either aesthetically or from a practical standpoint, you're really wanting/needing a particular focal length range. Would 250 or 300mm possibly work for you? I find that range quite delightful on 645 (film or digital). What do you shoot most at the longer focal lengths?
We are getting off-topic. but I'm happy to discuss (can I hijack my own thread?). Basically, in my opinion 135mm or equivalent is the 'Goldilocks' lens for tight head-shots: it's just right. My personal taste is that most portraits are most appealing with a subject-to-camera distance in the 6 to 10 ft (1.8 to 3.0m) range. I find that in that distance range, a 135mm or equivalent gives me about the right framing* for a tight head shot (usually with a little room for alternative crops, framing options, and the light). Obviously a slightly shorter or longer lens doesn't change the composition that much. But even working on my feet, moving around the subject, and using a zoom lens to adjust framing by eye, I've found that 135mm is overall about ideal for my taste.

For year I had an APS-C camera and used a Tamron 90mm f/2.8 macro lens for head shots--which was great (other than that it was quite slow-focusing). Before that, I usually used a 70-210mm f/4 lens, at about 135mm for 35mm film, and at about 90mm for APS-C digital. I've recently gone to a MILC, in Sony full-frame. I only have two lenses, so the next portraits will probably be the the Tamron 70-300mm at about 135mm and f/5 or f/5.6 (not a fan of ultra-thin depth-of-field). Certainly if money were no object, then one of the great 135mm AF primes would be part of my kit.

I realize there are uses for longer lenses (e.g. fashion) and people who like them for portraits. This is certainly a matter of my personal taste.

*A 135mm or equivalent lens provides a field of view of about 13x19" at 6 ft, and 21x32" at 10 ft.
 
We are getting off-topic.
Woops! Sorry about that.
... My personal taste is that most portraits are most appealing with a subject-to-camera distance in the 6 to 10 ft (1.8 to 3.0m) range....and using a zoom lens to adjust framing by eye, I've found that 135mm is overall about ideal for my taste.
Everyone has their own preferences and the 135 focal length is definitely a mainstay portrait focal length.
... I usually used a 70-210mm f/4 lens, at about 135mm for 35mm film, and at about 90mm for APS-C digital...
That's a sweet spot to many people with the 70-200 zoom range. 135mm has been selected on my zoom regularly, in part because the lens seemed to preform really well around that focal length.. but samples vary of course.
I realize there are uses for longer lenses (e.g. fashion) and people who like them for portraits. This is certainly a matter of my personal taste.

*A 135mm or equivalent lens provides a field of view of about 13x19" at 6 ft, and 21x32" at 10 ft.
Thanks for taking the time to indulge my curiosity. I appreciate that and now better understand your preference with your explanation.
 
Go look at an SB900 manual which specifies guide numbers in normal and HSS mode at 1/500th shutter.
Now this IS something we can look at. Below is a screen cap of the SB900 manual you refer to. As we are using a Nikon flash, let's assume we are using a Nikon body like the D850 which has a sync speed of 1/250.
What difference does the camera and its sync speed make to how much power is lost in HSS mode? Why didn't you stick with 1/160th used in your testing or 1/100th or 1/20th?

None of them change the non-HHS power output or resulting exposure.

They make a difference in your faulty theory which claims there is a power loss due to shutter speed increase from a starting point you chose to an HSS sync speed then attributes observed additional power loss to some unexplained feature of the HSS mechanism. You had to choose a different starting point to fit the SB-900 data.
 
Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.
All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.
Not at all misleading, just straight facts.
So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

No I won't and your implication that I will is misleading.
I can have that conversation, but I'd like to have some useful information first.
Did I really have to explain that I didn't have a problem with flash power at 1/1600th before hiking it to 1/6400th and compensating with 2 stops of ISO or aperture?

Instead of trying to obfuscate you could just answer the question and the answer would be no and accept your previous statements were misleading.
 
Go look at an SB900 manual which specifies guide numbers in normal and HSS mode at 1/500th shutter.
Now this IS something we can look at. Below is a screen cap of the SB900 manual you refer to. As we are using a Nikon flash, let's assume we are using a Nikon body like the D850 which has a sync speed of 1/250.
What difference does the camera and its sync speed make to how much power is lost in HSS mode? Why didn't you stick with 1/160th used in your testing or 1/100th or 1/20th?
I used the original SS of 1/250 because without HS/HSS, that camera can sync up to that level and given the context of our conversation, people are only bumping up SS to reduce ambient so it is a logical choice to use the highest SS that the camera will sync as.

Furthermore, the GN stated in the manual for HSS were using HSS at 1/500. So 1/250 is a nice number for calculation purposes. Unlike in my experiment, I do not have control over the variables stated in the GN tables.
None of them change the non-HHS power output or resulting exposure.
Correct, shutter speed should not impact the recorded light output from the strobe in non-HSS mode assuming that the SS is longer than the t0.1. In my experiment I had to increase my shutter speed as my camera won't utilise HSS if under its sync speed. Given that aperture does impact the recorded light output, I countered the impact that the SS would have had in HSS by opening up the aperture proportionally.

If what you said was true for the strobe I used then the delta between the two frames would have been close to 1/3 of a stop. However, it wasn't. What I recorded was closer to what others have reported and what was closer to the GNs in the manual you reference. That is, over a stop of light.
They make a difference in your faulty theory which claims there is a power loss due to shutter speed increase from a starting point you chose to an HSS sync speed then attributes observed additional power loss to some unexplained feature of the HSS mechanism. You had to choose a different starting point to fit the SB-900 data.
Well if it's so easy, why don't you do the math/work and demonstrate to us because at this point you just sit back and say, trust me bro without actually demonstrating anything of significance. So either you are wrong and can't demonstrate anything, you are a troll or won't listen/understand. All of which would not convince anyone that what you think is correct.
 
Well if it's so easy, why don't you do the math/work and demonstrate to us because at this point you just sit back and say, trust me bro without actually demonstrating anything of significance. So either you are wrong and can't demonstrate anything, you are a troll or won't listen/understand. All of which would not convince anyone that what you think is correct.
I did in my first post in this thread.

At full power flashes produce about the same amount of light in normal and HSS modes. The difference being in HSS mode the light is produced over about 1/100th of a second.

Shutter speed relative to that 1/100th determines what proportion of that light the sensor sees so for example at 1/400th it will see 1/4 and be 2 stops down.

It also means that if you meter a scene at 1/100th shutter speed the flash non-HSS guide number divided by the F stop you metered will give you the flash to subject distance required to provide an equally intense light in HSS mode. A rather useful pearl of wisdom I thought, but, this seems to be not a great place to cast them.
 
Well if it's so easy, why don't you do the math/work and demonstrate to us because at this point you just sit back and say, trust me bro without actually demonstrating anything of significance. So either you are wrong and can't demonstrate anything, you are a troll or won't listen/understand. All of which would not convince anyone that what you think is correct.
I did in my first post in this thread.
Once again, your words are meaningless without something to back it up. Especially when there is existence of supporting evidence that directly contradicts your statements.

Did you know that Profoto strobes produce 3 stops more light of an equivalent Godox wattage strobe! Must be true, I just wrote it. Do you agree?

Heck, did you know I went to Mars, then Jupiter and the back to Earth! It must be true because I wrote it. Do you agree?
At full power flashes produce about the same amount of light in normal and HSS modes.
Plausible but I cannot and have not measured this. However from the data we have, the capture input the camera captures is not the same. And that's all we care about here, what the camera captures.
The difference being in HSS mode the light is produced over about 1/100th of a second.

Shutter speed relative to that 1/100th determines what proportion of that light the sensor sees so for example at 1/400th it will see 1/4 and be 2 stops down.

It also means that if you meter a scene at 1/100th shutter speed the flash non-HSS guide number divided by the F stop you metered will give you the flash to subject distance required to provide an equally intense light in HSS mode. A rather useful pearl of wisdom I thought, but, this seems to be not a great place to cast them.
Want an easy way to prove yourself correct, then here it is. Repeat the steps below and post your results in a image format, not words.

Set flash to 1/1. Mount the camera/flash so they don't move. Take a photo at 1/100, ISO 100, at what ever f-stop gives you an even/non blown out exposure.

Stay at ISO 100, change sync to 1/400, open up your aperture by 2 stops. Put everything into HSS and fire again at 1/1 power. According to you, the exposure should be identical or at worst, within 1/3 of a stop.
 
Well if it's so easy, why don't you do the math/work and demonstrate to us because at this point you just sit back and say, trust me bro without actually demonstrating anything of significance. So either you are wrong and can't demonstrate anything, you are a troll or won't listen/understand. All of which would not convince anyone that what you think is correct.
I did in my first post in this thread.

At full power flashes produce about the same amount of light in normal and HSS modes. The difference being in HSS mode the light is produced over about 1/100th of a second.

Shutter speed relative to that 1/100th determines what proportion of that light the sensor sees so for example at 1/400th it will see 1/4 and be 2 stops down.

It also means that if you meter a scene at 1/100th shutter speed the flash non-HSS guide number divided by the F stop you metered will give you the flash to subject distance required to provide an equally intense light in HSS mode. A rather useful pearl of wisdom I thought, but, this seems to be not a great place to cast them.
Your math looks right but I'd like to see it backed up with some photos.
 
Want an easy way to prove yourself correct, then here it is. Repeat the steps below and post your results in a image format, not words.

Set flash to 1/1. Mount the camera/flash so they don't move. Take a photo at 1/100, ISO 100, at what ever f-stop gives you an even/non blown out exposure.

Stay at ISO 100, change sync to 1/400, open up your aperture by 2 stops. Put everything into HSS and fire again at 1/1 power. According to you, the exposure should be identical or at worst, within 1/3 of a stop.
You missed the requirement for insignificant ambient light.



To the nearest 1/3rd :

The V860II needed 2 1/3 stops.

The AD600Pro needed 2 stops.

Extrapolating to 1/400th from the SB-900 @ 1/500th guide number gives it needing 1.9 stops.
 
Want an easy way to prove yourself correct, then here it is. Repeat the steps below and post your results in a image format, not words.

Set flash to 1/1. Mount the camera/flash so they don't move. Take a photo at 1/100, ISO 100, at what ever f-stop gives you an even/non blown out exposure.

Stay at ISO 100, change sync to 1/400, open up your aperture by 2 stops. Put everything into HSS and fire again at 1/1 power. According to you, the exposure should be identical or at worst, within 1/3 of a stop.
You missed the requirement for insignificant ambient light.
Well no I didn't. I specifically said set an f-stop where you are not blowing out whilst your flash is set at full power. If your flash is set at full power and ambient is having significant impact on a frame, you have larger issues that you need to address first. A darkened room is not a requirement to get a black frame. In studio I hardly ever shoot with the lights off (outside of edge cases) and ambient does not impact my frame.
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67217870

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67218162

To the nearest 1/3rd :

The V860II needed 2 1/3 stops.

The AD600Pro needed 2 stops.

Extrapolating to 1/400th from the SB-900 @ 1/500th guide number gives it needing 1.9 stops.
The more you talk with less actual evidence to back yourself up, the more you are indicating how inaccurate you are. You keep saying how easy this was to test and that you did test yet it's too difficult for you to actually show results.

You keep saying you posted results. You have never posted results. What you posted was a conclusion. A conclusion based off results and data you refuse to share for "reasons."
 
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I've also wanted all MF (medium format) manufacturers to at the very least offer 1-3 leaf lenses (especially in the portraiture lens range) where the option to use the leaf or focal shutter is available via menu options, but I don't think there's enough people wanting leaf lenses for companies like Pentax and Hasselblad to spend the development money that it requires to make a new leaf lens, that relatively few photographers would find a need for.. especially when HSS is a viable alternative for many photographers.
Yet Hasselblad added a series of leaf shutter lenses with sync speeds much faster than previous lenses for their XCD system.
Yes, Hasselblad has upgraded several times from 1/800th to 1/2000 if I recall, and now 1/4000 with the new X series.

I meant to say Pentax and Fuji (not Hasselblad that had an entire leaf line up).

Thanks for waking me up! :)
No worries. I just hope Fuji release at least 1 LS lens. I was planning to do some experiments for the OP but work/life comes in the way.
 
Apertures f/2.8 and larger, 1/500th shutter, and the light(s) a 10ft. away from the subject at 100 iso? HSS can effortlessly offer a nice blend of "pop" to the subject when the sun is in front of ... all the way to 90 degrees to the side of the subject. Start closing the aperture (smaller), add modifiers, filters, the sun more behind the subject in the middle of a bright day, and push the shutter speed up to 1/1600 or more and power becomes an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away from the subject.
All sounds very reasonable yet misleading.
Not at all misleading, just straight facts.
So if I hike shutter speed to 1/6400th and hike ISO 2 stops because I want to freeze motion or open aperture 2 stops because I want shallow depth of field I am going to have a problem with flash power?

No I won't and your implication that I will is misleading.
I can have that conversation, but I'd like to have some useful information first.
Did I really have to explain that I didn't have a problem with flash power at 1/1600th before hiking it to 1/6400th and compensating with 2 stops of ISO or aperture?
I plainly addressed your shoot scenario in the first sentence (above). I explicitly mentioned wide apertures. How you balance the equation when using wide apertures isn't relevant to the facts of my post. The take away being wide apertures, a relatively slow shutter speed (in context of fast movement/water/particles) and lights say, 10ft. away at 100 iso is an effortless feat for HSS.

If your situation (however you balance iso/aperture/shutter) fits in the 1st category (above) moreso than the 2nd category (below), then how are you confused?

If you pull your lights back to 15-20ft or further (typical for many engaged in beach location work), don a circular polarizer (very common), use modifiers that restrict or scatter your light (most common), stop down - use an aperture that's conducive to excellent image quality (typical of people engaged in paid work), have the sun more towards the back of the subjects (very common on the beach), and then shoot at 1/1600th or faster (still a rather slow shutter for water/particles/or fast body movements), ..then yes, for most reasonable photographers, power can quickly become an issue fairly rapidly, especially when you start moving the lights further away.

Instead of trying to obfuscate you could just answer the question and the answer would be no and accept your previous statements were misleading.
Not a single thing "misleading" in that post.

Will you post a real-world example of what kind of light you're getting onto your subjects using HSS with a 1/6400th shutter speed while letting us know how far you place your lights from the subject, your ISO and Aperture setting?

When people post actual examples, it gives other readers a realistic contextual view of what they can expect on a practical note.
 
You keep saying you posted results. You have never posted results. What you posted was a conclusion. A conclusion based off results and data you refuse to share for "reasons."
I am not going to jump through hoops to convince you I am not lying. If you don't believe me that is your problem and loss.
 

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