AdobeRGB question

As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
You can process in sRGB, but then there may(will) be issues when exporting into wider spaces, e.g. AdobeRGB.
My reply was to your comments about 16-bit capability, which is not at all exclusive to wide gamut spaces.
From what i find online mostly its information guides how to choose HDR TV and they they do recommend TV's with HDR + WCG (wide color gamut) rather than just HDR. Pretty convincing to me.

IMO with photography editing its same logic, why should i use color gamut from SDR TV era (sRGB year 1999) when working on HDR/High Bit Depth photo's, better i take advantage of additional data WCG (ProPhoto RGB year 2013) provides.

To me using sRGB with 16bit photos is like using "Only Web Colors" option in Photoshop color picker so to say,. Of course its not so dramatic difference, but i like to push my edits to the limit and less colors could possibly mean mean more artifacts/clipping.

0e53d7cf445d44db9545a8b63ffb80b3.jpg

Pretty good explanation here, if you consider for editing purpose.
 
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As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
There is virtually no clipping in the red channel in the bow for any of the renderings in the sRGB JPEG itself. You can confirm that by downloading the comparison image I posted and checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and/or looking at the red channel in the Channels tab. The clipping you're seeing (as posted in your screenshot above) is almost certainly due to your monitor setting. You might want to check into recalibrating your monitor.
 
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As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
There is virtually no clipping in the red channel in the bow for any of the renderings in the sRGB JPEG itself. You can confirm that by downloading the comparison image I posted and checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and/or looking at the red channel in the Channels tab.
When I do that in Photoshop...I see obvious areas of the red channel clipping in the bow as indicated by the text. Makes me think you're Photoshop defaults may be at play

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
There is virtually no clipping in the red channel in the bow for any of the renderings in the sRGB JPEG itself. You can confirm that by downloading the comparison image I posted and checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and/or looking at the red channel in the Channels tab.
When I do that in Photoshop...I see obvious areas of the red channel clipping in the bow as indicated by the text. Makes me think you're Photoshop defaults may be at play
You downloaded the version I posted in my original response? How did you confirm clipping in Photoshop?
 
As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
There is virtually no clipping in the red channel in the bow for any of the renderings in the sRGB JPEG itself. You can confirm that by downloading the comparison image I posted and checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and/or looking at the red channel in the Channels tab.
When I do that in Photoshop...I see obvious areas of the red channel clipping in the bow as indicated by the text. Makes me think you're Photoshop defaults may be at play
You downloaded the version I posted in my original response?
Yes
How did you confirm clipping in Photoshop?
Just as you outlined. It also looks...clipped as stated in the text...on both my monitors. Just used Photoshop to confirm

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
There is virtually no clipping in the red channel in the bow for any of the renderings in the sRGB JPEG itself. You can confirm that by downloading the comparison image I posted and checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and/or looking at the red channel in the Channels tab.
When I do that in Photoshop...I see obvious areas of the red channel clipping in the bow as indicated by the text. Makes me think you're Photoshop defaults may be at play
You downloaded the version I posted in my original response?
Yes
How did you confirm clipping in Photoshop?
Just as you outlined. It also looks...clipped as stated in the text...on both my monitors. Just used Photoshop to confirm
The version with text is IvankoPetro’s version grabbed from his screen. As I explained, the obvious clipping in it is due to his monitor settings. My version is what I posted upthread. It isn’t clipped.
 
You downloaded the version I posted in my original response?
Yes
How did you confirm clipping in Photoshop?
Just as you outlined. It also looks...clipped as stated in the text...on both my monitors. Just used Photoshop to confirm
The version with text is IvankoPetro’s version grabbed from his screen. As I explained, the obvious clipping in it is due to his monitor settings. My version is what I posted upthread. It isn’t clipped.
Which version is yours? I think that's the one I checked...your original. Link again in case I made a mistake. The bow area is what was seen buy the OP as clipped. Not the area around the bowl. Do you have a link to the original JPEG?

Thanks

--
My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)
 
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You downloaded the version I posted in my original response?
Yes
How did you confirm clipping in Photoshop?
Just as you outlined. It also looks...clipped as stated in the text...on both my monitors. Just used Photoshop to confirm
The version with text is IvankoPetro’s version grabbed from his screen. As I explained, the obvious clipping in it is due to his monitor settings. My version is what I posted upthread. It isn’t clipped.
Which version is yours? I think that's the one I checked...your original. Link again in case I made a mistake. The bow area is what was seen buy the OP as clipped. Not the area around the bowl. Do you have a link to the original JPEG?

Thanks
The version in this post: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67217348
 
To me using sRGB with 16bit photos is like using "Only Web Colors" option in Photoshop color picker so to say,. Of course its not so dramatic difference, but i like to push my edits to the limit and less colors could possibly mean mean more artifacts/clipping.
As I said earlier... if you're happy doing what you do and it works out, I'm happy.
 
As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
There is virtually no clipping in the red channel in the bow for any of the renderings in the sRGB JPEG itself. You can confirm that by downloading the comparison image I posted and checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and/or looking at the red channel in the Channels tab.
When I do that in Photoshop...I see obvious areas of the red channel clipping in the bow as indicated by the text. Makes me think you're Photoshop defaults may be at play
Colour space for the screenshot and the way it was reached may be at play too. In this case the screenshot is in sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (1998, (c) Hewlett-Packard). This colour space may be assigned by hosting service. Unless the colour management workflow is known end-to-end, all bets are off.

IMO sRGB vs. AdobeRGB is a question resulting from firmware and software being non-transparent.

When the starting point is raw data (which is nearly always the case when the input device is a sensor), the choice of the "optimal" colour space is done with the choice of converter, it's either the internal working space of the converter (including the in-camera one), or the working space the converter colour transform is optimized for (internal space may be wider in some cases).

Generally, the decisive factors for a successful editing session are: knowing what one wants at the end and being realistic about it (taking into consideration source image, time, skills, available tools, output/presentation device/conditions, audience, etc.) - the decision on the colour space(s) depends on the source image and the edits one plans; it's hard to discuss such a decision out of context. One may decide on using a mixture of different colour spaces, not all of them having "RGB" in their names (Lab, CMYK, YCC, ...).

--
 
As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
There is virtually no clipping in the red channel in the bow for any of the renderings in the sRGB JPEG itself. You can confirm that by downloading the comparison image I posted and checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and/or looking at the red channel in the Channels tab.
When I do that in Photoshop...I see obvious areas of the red channel clipping in the bow as indicated by the text. Makes me think you're Photoshop defaults may be at play
Colour space for the screenshot and the way it was reached may be at play too. In this case the screenshot is in sRGB IEC61966-2.1 (1998, (c) Hewlett-Packard). This colour space may be assigned by hosting service. Unless the colour management workflow is known end-to-end, all bets are off.
If you're referring to my original screenshot (not the one above with the added text), then the original screenshot capture copied into PS was converted to that version of sRGB. If you're referring to the version of the screenshot that has the text, which was submitted by IvankoPetro, that version is untagged (per Adobe Bridge) and opens as an untagged RGB image in PS. Of course, your preference settings in PS will come into play here with how PS displays an untagged image like that.
IMO sRGB vs. AdobeRGB is a question resulting from firmware and software being non-transparent.

When the starting point is raw data (which is nearly always the case when the input device is a sensor), the choice of the "optimal" colour space is done with the choice of converter, it's either the internal working space of the converter (including the in-camera one), or the working space the converter colour transform is optimized for (internal space may be wider in some cases).

Generally, the decisive factors for a successful editing session are: knowing what one wants at the end and being realistic about it (taking into consideration source image, time, skills, available tools, output/presentation device/conditions, audience, etc.) - the decision on the colour space(s) depends on the source image and the edits one plans; it's hard to discuss such a decision out of context. One may decide on using a mixture of different colour spaces, not all of them having "RGB" in their names (Lab, CMYK, YCC, ...).
You seem to be mellowing in your old age, Iliah. :-D I, on the other hand, seem to be hardening in my old age. I can remember some tussles with you and DigitalDog years ago when I was the one arguing for the benefits of sometimes editing in the narrower color space. These days, I'm pretty much sticking strictly to ProPhoto until the output stage, regardless of the intended output destination. If it's good enough for Adobe to hardwire Melissa as the working space in LR, who am I to argue with the wide gamut approach in ACR/PS as the working space (except when Lab is required for specific challenges as I picked up from Dan Margulis' book).
 
The version with text is IvankoPetro’s version grabbed from his screen. As I explained, the obvious clipping in it is due to his monitor settings. My version is what I posted upthread. It isn’t clipped.


937d7fa0aabb47aab5bdbea3f24682ed.jpg

LOL, makes it hard to have serious discussions about colour management!! :-)
 
As can clearly be seen from the color samples taken from the two renderings in which the conversion to sRGB occurred before the PS edit, the colors are different from the version in which the sRGB conversion effectively occurred at the end (thanks to the soft proofing).
What i noticed on both sRGB versions is that red hair band is clipped badly even i remove saturation completely still no visible texture on hair band just same color, while ProPhoto RGB version it's not clipped and when de-saturated shows texture.

191017a35b6a48329fddfa37e844ef1a.jpg
You can process in sRGB, but then there may(will) be issues when exporting into wider spaces, e.g. AdobeRGB.
My reply was to your comments about 16-bit capability, which is not at all exclusive to wide gamut spaces.
From what i find online mostly its information guides how to choose HDR TV and they they do recommend TV's with HDR + WCG (wide color gamut) rather than just HDR. Pretty convincing to me.

IMO with photography editing its same logic, why should i use color gamut from SDR TV era (sRGB year 1999) when working on HDR/High Bit Depth photo's, better i take advantage of additional data WCG (ProPhoto RGB year 2013) provides.

To me using sRGB with 16bit photos is like using "Only Web Colors" option in Photoshop color picker so to say,. Of course its not so dramatic difference, but i like to push my edits to the limit and less colors could possibly mean mean more artifacts/clipping.

0e53d7cf445d44db9545a8b63ffb80b3.jpg

Pretty good explanation here, if you consider for editing purpose.
You can get clipped colors in any colorspace, and just about any image can be presented without clipping in sRGB.

Images generally start out as raw data. Raw data does not contain RGB color information in the traditional sense. For the vast majority of cameras, the raw data contains only luminance information for each pixel. Each pixel is behind a red, green, or blue filter. The software that processes the raw data considers the luminance data and the knowledge of the color filters in order to convert the capture to an RGB image. There are other factors that affect the conversion, including the ISO setting, the selected color temp, saturation settings, and a variety of options that affect the tone curve.

One might ask the question "given a certain raw pixel value, what color should the resulting RGB pixel be?". The answer is often "What color would you like it to be?"



Consider a taking a photo of a model holding a neutral gray card. What color should the pixels over the gray card be? Should they be a neutral gray to reflect the fact that the card itself is gray? Perhaps they should have an orange tinge to reflect the fact that the photo was taken at golden hour? What color should those pixels be if the photo was taken at noon in bright sunlight? What color if taken indoors under tungsten light (should it be gray like the card, or have an orange tinge due to the tungsten lighting)?

The answer to all of these, is that it should be whatever color you want it to be. Most of the time, the photographer wants to create the most aesthetically pleasing photo.

Now let's bring this back to sRGB and color spaces. When the raw data gets processed, the software needs to decide what color each pixel should be. More often than not, there is no single "right" answer. If you have asked the software to produce an sRGB file, it can fit all the colors into the sRGB colorspace. If you ask the software to produce an AdobeRGB file, it has a wider pallet of colors to choose from - however, that doesn't necessarily mean you want it to use all those colors.

If you have clipped colors, then you can choose to process to a wider gamut colorspace, or you can choose to process with different parameters. A lot depends on your goal.



For instance, if your final product will be an sRGB file, then one can make a reasonable case that you should be working in sRGB.

The advantage of working in a wide gamut colorspace is that you have the option of using additional colors. It's like having a wider range of crayons to choose from. If you want one of those colors, then it's very help to have the option. If you don't want/need any of those additional colors, then the wider gamut provides absolutely no advantage.

The disadvantage of a wide gamut colorspace is that the gamut may be much wider than the gamut of the final output device (be that a monitor or a printer). That means that at some point the wider gamut colorspace will need to be mapped into the smaller gamut of the output device. Unless you are handling that conversion, you have no control over it. Suppose the colors in your image easily fit into sRGB, but you deliver them in a ProPhoto RGB file. The final rendering may involve squeezing the entire ProPhoto colorspace into sRGB. These can cause the colors in your image to shift, even thought it was unnecessary.

The other disadvantage of a wide gamut colorspace is that the addressable points in the visual colorspace are spaced further apart. This means that you are more likely to get banding if you edit the image. A common strategy is to use 16 bit per channel files instead of 8 bits per channel. These files are twice as big, but you have so many addressable points, that even though there are further apart in a wider gamut colorspace, there are still close enough together to avoid issues.
 
Which version is yours? I think that's the one I checked...your original. Link again in case I made a mistake. The bow area is what was seen buy the OP as clipped. Not the area around the bowl. Do you have a link to the original JPEG?

Thanks
The version in this post: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67217348
The last image there is from the bowl...not the area where clipping is obvious...if I understand correctly.
It's not the bowl comparison. It's the first image in my original post, linked below, that we're talking about:


Download it into PS and report back whether you're still seeing the severe red clipping in the bows. If so, please indicate how you determined that the clipping is occurring (i.e., what form of measuring you performed in PS to prove to your personal satisfaction that the clipping is in the JPEG image itself).
 
Which version is yours? I think that's the one I checked...your original. Link again in case I made a mistake. The bow area is what was seen buy the OP as clipped. Not the area around the bowl. Do you have a link to the original JPEG?

Thanks
The version in this post: https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67217348
The last image there is from the bowl...not the area where clipping is obvious...if I understand correctly.
It's not the bowl comparison. It's the first image in my original post, linked below, that we're talking about:

https://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/67217348?image=0
That is the one I used looking at the red areas of the bow on her head . I found obvious clipping in the red channel (just as the text indicates) checking the actual RGB values in Photoshop and looking at the red channel in the Channels tab as you described. I also used the histogram function to get a feel as well
 
You can get clipped colors in any colorspace, and just about any image can be presented without clipping in sRGB.

Images generally start out as raw data. Raw data does not contain RGB color information in the traditional sense. For the vast majority of cameras, the raw data contains only luminance information for each pixel. Each pixel is behind a red, green, or blue filter. The software that processes the raw data considers the luminance data and the knowledge of the color filters in order to convert the capture to an RGB image. There are other factors that affect the conversion, including the ISO setting, the selected color temp, saturation settings, and a variety of options that affect the tone curve.

One might ask the question "given a certain raw pixel value, what color should the resulting RGB pixel be?". The answer is often "What color would you like it to be?"

Consider a taking a photo of a model holding a neutral gray card. What color should the pixels over the gray card be? Should they be a neutral gray to reflect the fact that the card itself is gray? Perhaps they should have an orange tinge to reflect the fact that the photo was taken at golden hour? What color should those pixels be if the photo was taken at noon in bright sunlight? What color if taken indoors under tungsten light (should it be gray like the card, or have an orange tinge due to the tungsten lighting)?

The answer to all of these, is that it should be whatever color you want it to be. Most of the time, the photographer wants to create the most aesthetically pleasing photo.

Now let's bring this back to sRGB and color spaces. When the raw data gets processed, the software needs to decide what color each pixel should be. More often than not, there is no single "right" answer. If you have asked the software to produce an sRGB file, it can fit all the colors into the sRGB colorspace. If you ask the software to produce an AdobeRGB file, it has a wider pallet of colors to choose from - however, that doesn't necessarily mean you want it to use all those colors.

If you have clipped colors, then you can choose to process to a wider gamut colorspace, or you can choose to process with different parameters. A lot depends on your goal.

For instance, if your final product will be an sRGB file, then one can make a reasonable case that you should be working in sRGB.

The advantage of working in a wide gamut colorspace is that you have the option of using additional colors. It's like having a wider range of crayons to choose from. If you want one of those colors, then it's very help to have the option. If you don't want/need any of those additional colors, then the wider gamut provides absolutely no advantage.
A wider working color space gives you more editing room, even if you know you'll eventually output to a narrower space. You can get unexpected and unwanted color shifts with subsequent edits if you've chosen to convert to sRGB at the beginning instead of waiting until the end. See my example in this thread.
The disadvantage of a wide gamut colorspace is that the gamut may be much wider than the gamut of the final output device (be that a monitor or a printer). That means that at some point the wider gamut colorspace will need to be mapped into the smaller gamut of the output device. Unless you are handling that conversion, you have no control over it. Suppose the colors in your image easily fit into sRGB, but you deliver them in a ProPhoto RGB file. The final rendering may involve squeezing the entire ProPhoto colorspace into sRGB.
There's that awful word again ("squeezing"). There's no need for "squeezing" if the colors were already inside the sRGB gamut. Just use relative colorimetric as your rendering intent (which will happen anyway if you're simply converting to sRGB instead of a printer profile even if you pick perceptual as your rendering intent). Since you specified that there were no colors outside of sRGB in your example image, there's nothing to be "squeezed" with relative colorimetric applied.
These can cause the colors in your image to shift, even thought it was unnecessary.
This is far less of a practical risk when going from an overly wide to a narrow gamut than when converting to the narrow gamut early on and then continuing to edit in that narrow space.
The other disadvantage of a wide gamut colorspace is that the addressable points in the visual colorspace are spaced further apart. This means that you are more likely to get banding if you edit the image.
This is a bogeyman argument with respect to color quantization errors caused by the conversion from a wider color space to a narrower one. Luminance banding is a real possibility when editing in 8-bit mode and this is true regardless of which color space you're editing in. Color banding simply because you're working in a wide color space like ProPhoto, is very unlikely to ever show up in any real photograph (i.e., not a synthetically generated image), even in 8-bit editing. Of course, it's better to edit in 16-bit mode regardless and then just wait to convert to 8-bit at the output stage. If you pursue that simple strategy, you'll never run into banding (luminance or color) in any reasonable real-world scenario.
A common strategy is to use 16 bit per channel files instead of 8 bits per channel. These files are twice as big, but you have so many addressable points, that even though there are further apart in a wider gamut colorspace, there are still close enough together to avoid issues.
 
Hi Iliah. There seems to be an awful lot of feathering or thresholding going on in the way the OOG color range selection works. There are LOTs of pixels "selected" by that technique that show no clipped/blocked RGB values. Many of them are very close with either the red channel above 250 but not 255 or the blue or green channels below 5 but not 0. That's why I'm speculating that there's some kind of feathering/thresholding going on in it. Here's the selection using the OOG color range selection for anyone who wants to take a look for themselves:



aee518f8bbb24d4ea68ca91507cba8a0.jpg

Focusing in particular on the bows, the near OOG pixels in the left and right bows are mostly in the red channel and the near OOG pixels in the middle blow are mostly in the green or blue channels. There are definitely some truly OOG pixels in the bow scattered around. I didn't claim otherwise, but I'm still not seeing the "obvious areas or red channel clipping" in the bows the way Mako2011 apparently is seeing it. I don't have a good explanation for that discrepancy.
 
There seems to be an awful lot of feathering or thresholding going on in the way the OOG color range selection works.
L* 70
L* 70

That's a slice at L* 70, the leftmost image vs. sRGB gamut; and it's not looking like Photoshop is way off, selecting borderline colours.

You might want to take this discussion to e-mail.

--
http://www.libraw.org/
 
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